What I LIKE about Macross 7

[Keith]

And there's just something about Basara the brings people to him. By the end of the series I became a big fan.

I believe the proper term for that is "BOMBA!"

[superdupont]

Hi there, first post ! I've been lurking for some time... I saw Robotech when I was a kid, then much later saw it again, then M+, DYRL, M2, M0, then M7 and its oavs.

-I appreciate the length of M7 which allows for good character development, even if a few episodes less (and ennemies) would be a good thing. I enjoy long tales and enjoyed M7 for this, it takes time to make characters change.

-Music is good too, some songs are clearly better than others but I especially enjoy the songs where Mylene sings alone, "pillow dream", "kimi ni todoke", "go" if it qualifies (belonging to M7 dynamite), and to a lesser extent "sweet fantasy"

-valks : plane form of the VF-17, and I especially like the gerwalk form of Basara's and Mylene's valks.

-back to Mylene : I like the fact that she's somehow involved in many various things, more than what is usual for a female character in Macross, I'd say. Well, not sure it's clear, but what I mean is she gets a life and not only screentime.

[Protoplast]

The best ideas in M7:

- Probably one of the most dumbest and most brilliant idea in anime, how Basara's music energy can be used to defeat an unstoppable enemy.

- The music actually got progressively better and better, Planet Dance may seem teeny afterawhile but "Submarine Street" is really some good indie stuff.

- While people love to hate Basara, he is a lot more confident than Hikaru and not as cocky as Isamu

- Gamlin actually a better supporting role than all other Macross chars, he is a lot more down to earth and likeable than Focker, Max, etc.

- Nothing compares to Max in the VF-22

Well M7 is one of the best Macross series because it is the only one that makes you jump off your couch when you watch the drama towards the end of the series.

[Gideon Krieg]

Geez, I am very impressed. This thread hasn't degenerated into a M7 sucks fest.

Anyway,

Best parts of M7 IMHO;

Mecha (all but soundforce)

Starships (especially the Neo-Nupertiet)

Characters: all but, you guessed it, Basara (not a realistic character, nor is his surviving combat realistic, he should have been blasted into space-dust multiple times over ).

Sivil (self-explanatory )

Story (so-so, could have been much worse, could have been much better. SDF Macross, or Macross plus, it was not! I give it a 3 out of 5)

Overall: the worst of the Macross series, but far better than most anime I have seen and light years ahead of Robotech.

[Keith]

I 100% dissagree about Basara. He's a completely realistic character, very much of the artistic mindset. As far as his survival, why is his survival so much less believable than anyone elses? His piloting skills are comparable with an top ace, he just chooses not to shoot. Plus flying the latest Pinpoint barrier equipped Valkyrie doesn't hurt either.

[JB0]

Big problem I see with these shows is that who you are matters.

If you get shot and don't have a name, you explode. Doesn't matter where you were hit

If you get shot and have a name, odds are pretty good you'll come out all right. Your vehicle may be damaged, but it still works. Worst-case, it's non-functional, but also non-volatile.

[Keith]

Unless it's a Tomino show, in which case you can die at any given minute, in some randomly gruesome way

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

In gundam they can sometimes eject and/or use that little core fighter thingy to double as an escape vehicle or to attack. Many times in macross you just see the thing explode or the person vaporises. (Kakizaki)

I guess battroid mode is the most dangerous since you have to manually open the "roof" and run if you get shot down and the thing is going to blow up. (there was an episode of hikaru ejecting from the head but this wouldn't be practical if the robot was lying down.)

I think it is realistic that the newtype guys never get killed because they have psychic ability and can read the thought and emotion of the people they are fighting against so it is like a matador vs a bull or a circus acrobat that does a dangerous stunt but is in control at all times. You don't have this in macross. Its just luck, even main characters can die. eg Roy, and also Hikaru almost dying in one episode had it not been for armor.

Edited September 25, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Agent ONE]

In gundam they can sometimes eject and/or use that little core fighter thingy to double as an escape vehicle or to attack. Many times in macross you just see the thing explode or the person vaporises. (Kakizaki)

I guess battroid mode is the most dangerous since you have to manually open the "roof" and run if you get shot down and the thing is going to blow up. (there was an episode of hikaru ejecting from the head but this wouldn't be practical if the robot was lying down.)

I think it is realistic that the newtype guys never get killed because they have psychic ability and can read the thought and emotion of the people they are fighting against so it is like a matador vs a bull or a circus acrobat that does a dangerous stunt but is in control at all times. You don't have this in macross. Its just luck, even main characters can die. eg Roy, and also Hikaru almost dying in one episode had it not been for armor.

331334[/snapback]

Yeah dude, thats what I was thinking... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!

[JB0]

In gundam they can sometimes eject and/or use that little core fighter thingy to double as an escape vehicle or to attack. Many times in macross you just see the thing explode or the person vaporises. (Kakizaki)

And then there was Macross 7, where everyone ejected and got their souls eaten...

I guess battroid mode is the most dangerous since you have to manually open the "roof" and run if you get shot down and the thing is going to blow up. (there was an episode of hikaru ejecting from the head but this wouldn't be practical if the robot was lying down.)

Yah, if the battroid falls down, ejecting will get messy, unless there's a provision for popping the canopy and blasting out(then you only have to worry about the back).

Same applies to a GERWALK that takes a tumble, though.

In space, of course, it doesn't matter your orientation.

I think it is realistic that the newtype guys never get killed because they have psychic ability and can read the thought and emotion of the people they are fighting against so it is like a matador vs a bull or a circus acrobat that does a dangerous stunt but is in control at all times. You don't have this in macross. Its just luck, even main characters can die. eg Roy, and also Hikaru almost dying in one episode had it not been for armor.

Hikaru almost died quite a few times.

VF-1D got clipped in the initial zentradi assault, self-destruct of the zentradi recon vessel, Britai kicking his ass into some spikes(a brown Valk woulda just blowed up there), the whiffed Daedalus attack(by far his closest call in terms of injuries sustained), and twice in the final battle of Space War 1(zentradi missiles took off the arms, and debris from Grand Cannon collapse shattered the canopy).

Edited September 25, 2005 by JB0

[Gideon Krieg]

I 100% dissagree about Basara.

Why am I not surprised.

He's a completely realistic character, very much of the artistic mindset. As far as his survival, why is his survival so much less believable than anyone elses?

Realistic: adj. the theory or practice of fidelity in art and literature to nature or to real life and to accurate representation without idealization.--Source: Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary 11th ed.

Keith, even you must admit that Basara represents the ideology of pacifism in its purest/extreme form. Granted that makes for "good" storytelling, but is not realistic.

  His piloting skills are comparable with an top ace, he just chooses not to shoot.

How is that realistic?

Okay, I would really like the name or names of any ace pilots (living or dead from any actual airforce), who were able to survive in aerial combat repeatedly without shooting back at the enemy.

Plus flying the latest Pinpoint barrier equipped Valkyrie doesn't hurt either.

I agree this system would have prolonged the life of his fighter, but with the number, and quality of the Varuta fighters (not too mention their pilots were more than just Zombies), I highly doubt the pin-point barrier system of the fighter would last long in actual combat. Also, this system cannot possibly deflect/absorb every single attack.

I must concur with JBO, as with all fiction stories, if you are a "Red Shirt" ( star trek humor there) you are as good as dead. However, a main character's life span is normally much longer if not indefinite.

I noticed the examples given for character death in Macross are from SDF Macross. The way those characters died (or came close to death) was very realistic (especially Roy's and Kakizaki's deaths). The close scrapes that Hikaru and even Maximillian had, were also believable. Isamu and Gould's battle with the Ghost fighter in Macross Plus exposes many of the hypothetical limitations of the YF-19 and YF-21, to the point of Gould's Kamikaze attack on the Ghost fighter. To me that was realistic. The dog-fights of Macross Zero are equally realistic (Kawamori redeemed himself in Zero, at least in my opinion).

But, Basara Hendrix flying through outerspace, playing guitar, flying the VF-19, dodging enemy attacks (pinpoint barrier or not), and not firing more than his "speaker missiles"/ammo, without being turned into subatomic particles was quite frankly a truck load of garbage.

I understand, and to a certain extent agree with, the message Kawamori is trying to relate through Basara, I just do not agree with how he went about expressing it.

I actually got that same message from Hikaru. Yet Hikaru was a very believable character. Hikaru seemed to hate war completely, but had grown as a person over the course of SDF Macross and learned that though horrible, war was sometimes the only solution.

Had the character Basara been more of a say.........Captain Herlock type character (i.e. he fights only when he has to, but when he does that enemy's number is up), I would be a fan of Basara. I like how the character looks overall (not the clothes or the color red, but hey I can't have everything), I like the idea of him having a privately owned, fully armed, Valkyrie (since a speaker system can be considered a weapon against the Zentraedi, and lets not forget those head lasers, mini-missile launchers, and gun pod. Thank you Kawamori) as opposed to the civilian VF from Macross 2.

Perhaps M7 will be redone in say 10 or 20 years and the "mistakes" made will be corrected and a new and more Macross M7 will come forth.

[JB0]

Basara DID fire live ammo a few times.

Perhaps not often enough, but he DID do it when he felt it was necessary.

He just didn't feel it was necessary as often as everyone else did.

It's not covered why, but (if I may be allowed to pull stuff out of my ass for a moment)this may have been due in part to Minmay's idolization post-war.

She's been pitched as more or less single-handedly saving the world with her singing, and it's quite likely more than a few people have gotten sucked up in the mythology and forgotten the reality of dogfights, missile clouds, and particle beams.

[Keith]

He's a completely realistic character, very much of the artistic mindset. As far as his survival, why is his survival so much less believable than anyone elses?

Realistic: adj. the theory or practice of fidelity in art and literature to nature or to real life and to accurate representation without idealization.--Source: Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary 11th ed.

Keith, even you must admit that Basara represents the ideology of pacifism in its purest/extreme form. Granted that makes for "good" storytelling, but is not realistic.

It comes down to this, why do you consider the desire to kill people more realistic than the desire not to? Is it really more realistic to believe that someone would do as much as they can "not" to hurt people, as it is to believe that someone would do as much as they can to wipe others out? Pacifism in its purest/extreme form would have been more akin to Reelina in Gundam Wing, sitting by expecting people to follow her based on words alone. What Basara did was take an active role in attaining peace. He didn't ask anyone to blindly follow him, he didn't sit around and just expect things to happen, he went out and with as much effort as others would take to fight people into submission, he made himself heard.

How is that realistic?

How is it not? Flying has nothing to do with shooting. How is anything Max does realistic for that matter?

Okay, I would really like the name or names of any ace pilots (living or dead from any actual airforce), who were able to survive in aerial combat repeatedly without shooting back at the enemy.

By that logic, those who fire in combat are guarunteed to live? Your argument is a bit too randomly biased.

I agree this system would have prolonged the life of his fighter, but with the number, and quality of the Varuta fighters (not too mention their pilots were more than just Zombies), I highly doubt the pin-point barrier system of the fighter would last long in actual combat. Also, this system cannot possibly deflect/absorb every single attack.

I suppose that would be where "moving" would come into play. I doubt you'll find any significant evidence stating that shooting & flying will make you more likely to survive an engagement than "not" shooting & flying.

I must concur with JBO, as with all fiction stories, if you are a "Red Shirt" ( star trek humor there) you are as good as dead. However, a main character's life span is normally much longer if not indefinite.

Again, unless it's a Tomino story, or even more extreme, a Nishizaki story, now that man knew how to kill off his characters with extreme prejudice. But to put things into perspective, it's all in how you look at things. In war, not everyone lives, not everyone dies. Depending on who you are, or who you know, there could be many more dead soldiers you don't know, than ones you do. And just as in fiction, when people you know do die, it affects you much more profoundly than the ones you don't.

I noticed the examples given for character death in Macross are from SDF Macross. The way those characters died (or came close to death) was very realistic (especially Roy's and Kakizaki's deaths). The close scrapes that Hikaru and even Maximillian had, were also believable. Isamu and Gould's battle with the Ghost fighter in Macross Plus exposes many of the hypothetical limitations of the YF-19 and YF-21, to the point of Gould's Kamikaze attack on the Ghost fighter. To me that was realistic. The dog-fights of Macross Zero are equally realistic (Kawamori redeemed himself in Zero, at least in my opinion).

Of course you're forgetting (be it due to non-familiarity, or forgetfullness) just as many dramatic deaths in Macross 7. Physica was an example given earlier, Kinryu, Gamlin's various scrapes (including his very nicely done "near death" scene), Docker, Docker's ability to constantly lose wingmen, and my favorite, Gigil. While 7 clearly didn't have the animation budget of Plus, the dogfights are still much prettier than Macross TV.

But, Basara Hendrix flying through outerspace, playing guitar, flying the VF-19, dodging enemy attacks (pinpoint barrier or not), and not firing more than his "speaker missiles"/ammo, without being turned into subatomic particles was quite frankly a truck load of garbage.

Actually, Basara isn't playing guitar at all (not until Dynamite anyway), it's been said many times before, and now once again, the VF-19 Kai's cockpit used a guitar "shaped" flight stick. All the control's were still handled through standard stick "styled" movement, with switches & slider's taking care of control's usually handled by triggers (and or other cockpit switches). Hell, the slider covered the neck of the guitar, making it impossible to play while it was in flight. Basara's singing was "Karaoke." I still fail to see why you think flying & not shooting is more likely to make you a target than flying & not. Not getting hit has more to do wth actual pilotting skill than targetting skill.

Though I also don't see how you expect me to think "Hendrix" is a derogatory term.

I understand, and to a certain extent agree with, the message Kawamori is trying to relate through Basara, I just do not agree with how he went about expressing it.

Look at it this way, Basara embodies all the ideal's put forth before, without any of the hypocracy. He hates war, doesn't want to fight, would prefer to move people's hearts, and you know what? He does so. You're also forgetting one other key aspect, though Basara refuses to fight, he doesn't prevent others than doing so (save for Mylene, who was an entirely different situation than the enlisted soldiers to begin with). He doesn't tell Gamlin not to shoot & protect the fleet, he doesn't tell any of the military not to shoot & protect the fleet. He doesn't do anything even remotely to prevent them from doing their job. If anything, in the beginning before he started having an effect, he still served to distract enough Varuta away as to prevent both civilian & mlitary casualties. Basara accepted the need for people to fight to protect others, he just chose to go about protecting in his own way.

The message at its base is the same as with medicine. You can either treat the problem, or you can treat the symptoms. Simply fighting without trying to achieve a resolution only treats the symptoms. Trying to stop the source of the conflict (i.e. not the soldiers, but the minds behind them) is treating the actual problem, and Basara did that. Someone is always going to have a bigger gun, and eventually that someone isn't going to be your side.

I actually got that same message from Hikaru. Yet Hikaru was a very believable character. Hikaru seemed to hate war completely, but had grown as a person over the course of SDF Macross and learned that though horrible, war was sometimes the only solution.

And again, Basara acknowledged the need for people to defend, he just chose to defend in a different manner, and didn't stop the military from doing it their own way. But looking back at Hikaru & the original series, it wasn't Hikaru's willingness to fight that saved everyone. Hell, he wasn't even there for the majority of the final battle with Bodolza (he took damage & was forced to land). It also wasn't Minmay's singing/kissing culture shock on the Bodolza fleet that allowed the Macross to break through their defenses & launch a reaction weapon barrage.

What brought down the Zentradi was a change of philosphy within their ranks. It was experiencing the feelings & emotions that the spies unwittingly brought back with them & spread through out Britai's fleet. It was them hanging out with people, realising there was another way to be, and having their heart's moved (and in turn moving others) that resulted in a revolt within the Britai Adoclas fleet seeing their own actions causing in the destruction of that new way of life. It was that undeniable force that caused Britai & Exedore to make the decision that truly resulted in the winning of the war (signing a treaty & joining the Macross, or face their own destruction in a mindless conflict).

Had the Macross simply armed itself with reaction weapons & jumped into the fray, it would have been destroyed along with Earth. Had Minmay simply sang & kissed Kaifun, the culture shock would have worn off quickly, and again, the Macross would have been destroyed along with Earth. It was the ability for the Zentradi to live with the Macross citizens, experience life & share those experiences, that caused Britai to join his fleet with the Macross, and combine all of the above elements to result in a skin of their teeth victory. But none of it would have happened without moving their hearts.

And that's what Basara's purpose is in 7, not to sing & distract people, not to fly out & kill people, but to change people's minds and let them see they have other alternatives to fighting.

Had the character Basara been more of a say.........Captain Herlock type character (i.e. he fights only when he has to, but when he does that enemy's number is up), I would be a fan of Basara. I like how the character looks overall (not the clothes or the color red, but hey I can't have everything), I like the idea of him having a privately owned, fully armed, Valkyrie (since a speaker system can be considered a weapon against the Zentraedi, and lets not forget those head lasers, mini-missile launchers, and gun pod. Thank you Kawamori) as opposed to the civilian VF from Macross 2.

Had Basara fought & killed period, he wouldn't have had his rightous passion, he'd be a hypocrite. He wouldn't have been able to move people, the 7 fleet would have come to the same climax against an enemy with infinately stronger tech, and everyone would have died. It was moving their hearts, and changing their minds that won against an unbeatable enemy, not hopelessly shooting at them. And in many ways Harlock embodies the most important aspects of Harlock. He lives his own way, by his own rules, regardless of the situation or costs.

Perhaps M7 will be redone in say 10 or 20 years and the "mistakes" made will be corrected and a new and more Macross M7 will come forth.

331361[/snapback]

The only mistakes in 7 were in its early 90's animation, there was absolutely nothing wrong with its story or philosphy, I wouldn't expect a change there. Hell, its spirit carried through in Zero. It wasn't the VF-0, Reaction weapons, or Roy that defeated the AFOS, it was Shin's ability to touch Sarah's heart that convinced her to call off the attack, and prove that humans weren't only capable of dealing with conflict through fighting. Shin let go of his rage, and let everything ride on hope.

Edited September 25, 2005 by Keith

[Ishimaru]

Wow long post ya should edit it, ya got the Quote tags all wrong . I understand how Keith feels about Basara, in my opnion I never seen Macross 7 yet and cant comment on it. But from the info I see on the boards here, Basara is somewhat in the middle..Ugh that didnt make sense. (Yah 200 posts )

Edited September 25, 2005 by Dean

[Keith]

Quote tags are fine, they just choose to stop working after a certain amount of text is achieved...

[Radd]

I don't see Basara as a horribly unrealistic character, just unlikely. He's an idealist, but at the same time he realizes that to reach his ideal will take a lot of demanding effort on his part. If nothing else, that qualifies him as more of a realist than almost anyone you'll ever meet in the street. Basara is certainly not the sort of person any of us are likely to meet in our lives, but he also wasn't portrayed as being without his own flaws.

[JB0]

Quote tags are fine, they just choose to stop working after a certain amount of text is achieved...

331378[/snapback]

It's after 10 sets of quote tags.

For future reference.

[dedalus001]

i liked all the military aspects (well maybe i still need time to cope with the sound force)

but Battle seven and the uraga escort carriers are everything you'd want to see in a future space force. as many have said before, the vf-11 is amazing (my favorite vf after the 1)

i do admit Gamlin had a few glitches in his character, but i liked him. he serves his purpose as a dedicated pilot, and what more, iam always so excited when "seventh moon" comes on and diamond force launches from its specialized launch platform right below the bridge. it's those small technical tidbits that i really admire. i only wish that they rendered the fighters in more detail.

[Gideon Krieg]

Basara DID fire live ammo a few times.

Perhaps not often enough, but he DID do it when he felt it was necessary.

He just didn't feel it was necessary as often as everyone else did.

It's not covered why, but (if I may be allowed to pull stuff out of my ass for a moment)this may have been due in part to Minmay's idolization post-war.

She's been pitched as more or less single-handedly saving the world with her singing, and it's quite likely more than a few people have gotten sucked up in the mythology and forgotten the reality of dogfights, missile clouds, and particle beams.

I agree with you JBO. However, my point is that the character Basara is not believable.

Keith, I know Basara is special to you. That is painfully obvious.

It comes down to this, why do you consider the desire to kill people more realistic than the desire not to?

WTF?

I did not express anything of that sort. Keith, you are reading into what I am posting. I thought I had made it clear that I agreed with the concept of "war is evil" and "give peace a chance." No sane person desires to kill people. Soldiers do so because they have to. I realize in the case of M7 that Basara is not a soldier and is only the lead guitarist for fire bomber.

Which reminds me.

How the hell did Basara get clearance to launch his fighter into a combat zone in the first place?

Are we supposed to assume there are no regulations concerning aerospace traffic on the colony ships.

I am positive this issue is not addressed in any episode. Certainly not in Ep. 1, when, if I'm not mistaken, Gamlin threatens to have Basara arrested for entering the combat zone and tapping into the military channel but nothing ever comes of it. Then in episode 3, when Gupernich orders Gigil to attack the M7 fleet (as a decoy) and in the middle of the Supernova concert, woooosh! Off goes Basara to fly into the battle zone, and then this type of crap continues for much of the series.

That is total and complete B.S..

I'd like to see some Basara wanna-be just try and hack military communications going on over in Iraq. I'll bet his or her ass would be in cuffs and off to some undisclosed location faster than you can say "Bomba!"

I am fully aware that "its just a TV show, a cartoon." Though I sometimes wonder about some of us here at MW.

How is it not? Flying has nothing to do with shooting. How is anything Max does realistic for that matter?

Ace pilots like Capt. J.D. McConnell Jr. (16 kills) and Maj. J Jabara (15 kills), of Korean War/Mig alley fame, survived by shooting down their opponents before they were shot down. As did the other 37 American aces of Korea. A total of 792 MIG-15s were shot down, for only a loss of 78 F-86 sabers. If shooting has nothing to do with flying in a aerial battlespace, than explain why so many planes get shot down?

By that logic, those who fire in combat are guarunteed to live? Your argument is a bit too randomly biased.

Guarunteed no. Have a much better chance of making it, yes. Many a consciencious objector met his end in Vietnam for choosing not to fight (approximately 3 out of 5. Source, U.S. Army Hickman report, dated 1975 A.D., on the usefullness of draftees.).

I suppose that would be where "moving" would come into play. I doubt you'll find any significant evidence stating that shooting & flying will make you more likely to survive an engagement than "not" shooting & flying.

Keith, if you can not figure out why shooting back at an enemy in an aerial engagment will greatly enhance your chances of survival, then you need to take some time away from Macross and spend some serious time researching this subject (that is not meant as an insult). The military channel is a good place to start, the show "Wings at War", where actual military pilots are interviewed, should be of great help to you (seriously, no BS).

And again, Basara acknowledged the need for people to defend, he just chose to defend in a different manner, and didn't stop the military from doing it their own way. But looking back at Hikaru & the original series, it wasn't Hikaru's willingness to fight that saved everyone. Hell, he wasn't even there for the majority of the final battle with Bodolza (he took damage & was forced to land). It also wasn't Minmay's singing/kissing culture shock on the Bodolza fleet that allowed the Macross to break through their defenses & launch a reaction weapon barrage.

What brought down the Zentradi was a change of philosphy within their ranks. It was experiencing the feelings & emotions that the spies unwittingly brought back with them & spread through out Britai's fleet. It was them hanging out with people, realising there was another way to be, and having their heart's moved (and in turn moving others) that resulted in a revolt within the Britai Adoclas fleet seeing their own actions causing in the destruction of that new way of life. It was that undeniable force that caused Britai & Exedore to make the decision that truly resulted in the winning of the war (signing a treaty & joining the Macross, or face their own destruction in a mindless conflict).

Had the Macross simply armed itself with reaction weapons & jumped into the fray, it would have been destroyed along with Earth. Had Minmay simply sang & kissed Kaifun, the culture shock would have worn off quickly, and again, the Macross would have been destroyed along with Earth. It was the ability for the Zentradi to live with the Macross citizens, experience life & share those experiences, that caused Britai to join his fleet with the Macross, and combine all of the above elements to result in a skin of their teeth victory. But none of it would have happened without moving their hearts.

And that's what Basara's purpose is in 7, not to sing & distract people, not to fly out & kill people, but to change people's minds and let them see they have other alternatives to fighting.

Had Basara fought & killed period, he wouldn't have had his rightous passion, he'd be a hypocrite. He wouldn't have been able to move people, the 7 fleet would have come to the same climax against an enemy with infinately stronger tech, and everyone would have died. It was moving their hearts, and changing their minds that won against an unbeatable enemy, not hopelessly shooting at them. And in many ways Harlock embodies the most important aspects of Harlock. He lives his own way, by his own rules, regardless of the situation or costs.

I worry about you Keith.

If Kawamori had chosen Basara to be an honorable warrior, fighting only when he has to, then that is what Basara would have been. The outcome of the story would then have been determined by Kawamori. If it meant Basara firing a reactive weapon into Gupernich, and him being destroyed, then that is how it would have ended. Sometimes I wonder if you understand that. Sometimes you write posts that make me think you are "living the experience."

The same can be said for SDF Macross. If Kawamori had decided to pull a Nishizaki (Space Cruiser Yamato) and had the Macross blow BoDolza's command ship away with one fell swoop (like the Yamato's wave motion gun) then that is how the series would have ended. I agree he made the story more interesting (and original) by having Lynn Minmei confuse the Zentran with her music and a Kiss (though I dislike the whole "singing solution" as it was portrayed in M7) and thus writing the story so the Zentran that had been exposed to the Earth's "culture" joined with the SDF Macross against BoDolza (who as we know was going to kill them all anyway, so it was a Kill or be killed situation for them).

If Kawamori had done the Yoshiyuki Tomino thing and made Basara a civilian caught up in the war like Amuro Ray, who was forced to fight, rather than willingly fly into combat, without fighting, I would find this character more believable.

As for Captain Herlock, he kills his enemies, period. I have seen all (except the new series)of the anime of Captain Herlock, from the 70s show to Arcadia of my youth, and his various appearances in 999. The character Herlock is nothing like the Basara character.

I went and watched the first 4 episodes again last night (I don't have time to watch all 49 again). I realize that it is not so much the Basara character's music or beliefs, its that he can survive so many battles without getting shot down/destroyed. It's just ludicrous.

However, I am not trying to convince you of whether or not the M7 fleet would have died without Basara's influence. That is acting like M7 is some kind of actual event. No, I am trying to relate to you that Mr. Shoji Kawamori could have made the character Basara more believable.

Though I also don't see how you expect me to think "Hendrix" is a derogatory term.

It's not. I was picking on Basara as a Jimi Hendrix wanna-be. You know, "Space-Hippie." I like Jimi Hendrix's music, so I guess I was not being fair to Mr. Hendrix. Now that I think of it, it's insulting to compare Hendrix to Basara. Jimi is far better than that. My apologies to any Hendrix fans here.

The only mistakes in 7 were in its early 90's animation, there was absolutely nothing wrong with its story or philosphy, I wouldn't expect a change there. Hell, its spirit carried through in Zero. It wasn't the VF-0, Reaction weapons, or Roy that defeated the AFOS, it was Shin's ability to touch Sarah's heart that convinced her to call off the attack, and prove that humans weren't only capable of dealing with conflict through fighting. Shin let go of his rage, and let everything ride on hope.

Well, that is your opinion Keith.

Mine is that Kawamori should redo Macross 7 and make it more "realistic" by either eliminating Basara from it completely or changing his character type to a more Kodai or Amuro Ray type character.

In closing (since I feel like I'm writing a persuasive essay), I'd like to finish by saying that other than Superpilot/musician/political activist/special spiritia generating-Basara and the Autobot look of the Soundforce VFs, I like M7.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, and for anyone here who is interested in actual military theory, here is a good place to start.

Edited September 26, 2005 by Gideon Krieg

[jenius]

Posts soooo long.... thread being derailed from what we like to another argument about why Mac7 is sooooo incredibly bad. Basara is sooooo not realistic.... Max not having him hung is sooooo unrealistic. Gamlin's near death was soooooo horrible... I'm astounded that someone referenced it as something done well. I cheered when Gamlin died... I thought it was the first attempt in M7 to be more than silly rubbish... and then he was magically alive again affirming my belief the entire series was silly rubbish. Let's get this back on topic though and just stick to what we like. Stuff like Max kicking butt or the Protodevlin folding the bomb back to his ship. That made me smile and then laugh. Good stuff.

[JB0]

Basara DID fire live ammo a few times.

Perhaps not often enough, but he DID do it when he felt it was necessary.

He just didn't feel it was necessary as often as everyone else did.

It's not covered why, but (if I may be allowed to pull stuff out of my ass for a moment)this may have been due in part to Minmay's idolization post-war.

She's been pitched as more or less single-handedly saving the world with her singing, and it's quite likely more than a few people have gotten sucked up in the mythology and forgotten the reality of dogfights, missile clouds, and particle beams.

I agree with you JBO. However, my point is that the character Basara is not believable.

I've seen enough loons that I'd believe someone like Basara is out there.

He's not NORMAL by any stretch of the imagination, but he's not supposed to be anyways.

How the hell did Basara get clearance to launch his fighter into a combat zone in the first place? 

Are we supposed to assume there are no regulations concerning aerospace traffic on the colony ships.   

I don't recall him ever asking FOR clearance.

Basara seems to have gotten a lot of leeway because he was part of a project the captain was interested in.

I am positive this issue is not addressed in any episode. 

They mentioned at one point that the area Basara lived in wasn't exactly supposed to be on the ship to start with, but that excuse seemed pretty weak given everyone knew where it was anyways.

I'd like to see some Basara wanna-be just try and hack military communications going on over in Iraq.  I'll bet his or her ass would be in cuffs and off to some undisclosed location faster than you can say "Bomba!"   

HAHAHA!

How is it not? Flying has nothing to do with shooting. How is anything Max does realistic for that matter?

Ace pilots like Capt. J.D. McConnell Jr. (16 kills) and Maj. J Jabara (15 kills), of Korean War/Mig alley fame, survived by shooting down their opponents before they were shot down. As did the other 37 American aces of Korea. A total of 792 MIG-15s were shot down, for only a loss of 78 F-86 sabers. If shooting has nothing to do with flying in a aerial battlespace, than explain why so many planes get shot down?

Diffrent facets of the argument here.

Being able to shoot someone has nothing to do with skill as a pilot, but it has a LOT to do with skill as a combat pilot.

And Basara IS a combat pilot.

It's debatable how much shooting he does, since it's all non-lethal projectiles.

[Gideon Krieg]

I've seen enough loons that I'd believe someone like Basara is out there.

Thank you JBO.

Jenius, you are correct, I am off subject.

*regains composure*

One of my favorite aspects of Macross 7 has got to be the Varuta fighters (I'm thumbing through Macross 7, This is animation; animation materials book right now)

Of them all the VBZ-99G;

and the plain ol FZ-109A are my favorites.

The VBZ-99G battroid reminds of the MS-18E Kampher from Gundam 0080: War in the pocket. Which is a kick-butt mobile suit. The VBZ-99G is no slouch either.

Looking at all the Varuta VFs, I can see a very vague resemblance to Zeon type mobile suits. I think its the "suit of armor" look they have. Makes em look real shweeet.

Edited September 26, 2005 by Gideon Krieg

[jenius]

Can someone remind me what the history of the Varuta fighters was supposed to be? If the Varuta are all brainwashed zents from a previous colonization attempt then it would stand to reason that the Varuta are using Earth fighters right? Are they modified VF-4s? Those mechs really did peak my interest but it was tough to admire them on my copy of the series because they don't really stand out well in space battles.

Edited September 26, 2005 by jenius

[JB0]

Depends on the model.

The Compendium has 3 diffrent Varauta VFs. A VF-14 knockoff, a VA-14 clone, and a VAB-2D compatible.

http://macross.anime.net/mecha/index.html

They're at the half-way mark.

[Keith]

I agree with you JBO. However, my point is that the character Basara is not believable.

Keith, I know Basara is special to you. That is painfully obvious.

It comes down to this, why do you consider the desire to kill people more realistic than the desire not to?

Someone's gotta have counterpoint here, as the character is getting far too unfair a rap.

WTF?

I did not express anything of that sort. Keith, you are reading into what I am posting. I thought I had made it clear that I agreed with the concept of "war is evil" and "give peace a chance." No sane person desires to kill people. Soldiers do so because they have to. I realize in the case of M7 that Basara is not a soldier and is only the lead guitarist for fire bomber.

Which reminds me.

And yet you constantly complain that because he doesn't shoot, his flying skill is somehow lessoned.

How the hell did Basara get clearance to launch his fighter into a combat zone in the first place?

Are we supposed to assume there are no regulations concerning aerospace traffic on the colony ships.

"Project-M" Through coincidence, both Dr. Chiba & Ray had similar idea's regarding a solution to potential future conflicts. Ray through knowing Kinryu got in contact with Max & got clearance to come aboard City 7 & train Basara to fly. Max knowing Chiba got the custom hardware built. Basara under "Project-M" had clearance to come & go as he pleased onto the battlefield.

I am positive this issue is not addressed in any episode. Certainly not in Ep. 1, when, if I'm not mistaken, Gamlin threatens to have Basara arrested for entering the combat zone and tapping into the military channel but nothing ever comes of it. Then in episode 3, when Gupernich orders Gigil to attack the M7 fleet (as a decoy) and in the middle of the Supernova concert, woooosh! Off goes Basara to fly into the battle zone, and then this type of crap continues for much of the series.

It's actually addressed amongst several episodes, though most notably the one in which Sound Force is officially established. And while Gamlin complains about Basara being on the battlefield in several episodes, he is silenced by Kinryu, & instructed to leave Basara alone. At no point in time was Max unaware of Basara's presence or purpose.

That is total and complete B.S..

Nope, you just weren't paying attention.

I'd like to see some Basara wanna-be just try and hack military communications going on over in Iraq. I'll bet his or her ass would be in cuffs and off to some undisclosed location faster than you can say "Bomba!"

Not if he was sanctioned by those in charge. Basara didn't just spontaniously come across that Valkyrie, it was given to Ray by Max.

I am fully aware that "its just a TV show, a cartoon." Though I sometimes wonder about some of us here at MW.

You're the one with the passionate argument against it...

Ace pilots like Capt. J.D. McConnell Jr. (16 kills) and Maj. J Jabara (15 kills), of Korean War/Mig alley fame, survived by shooting down their opponents before they were shot down. As did the other 37 American aces of Korea. A total of 792 MIG-15s were shot down, for only a loss of 78 F-86 sabers. If shooting has nothing to do with flying in a aerial battlespace, than explain why so many planes get shot down?

So you're saying piloting skill has absolutely nothing to do with not getting hit?

Guarunteed no. Have a much better chance of making it, yes. Many a consciencious objector met his end in Vietnam for choosing not to fight (approximately 3 out of 5. Source, U.S. Army Hickman report, dated 1975 A.D., on the usefullness of draftees.).

And how many of those 3 out of 5 had stealth avoidence skill the likes of say Solid (or Naked) Snake?

Keith, if you can not figure out why shooting back at an enemy in an aerial engagment will greatly enhance your chances of survival, then you need to take some time away from Macross and spend some serious time researching this subject (that is not meant as an insult). The military channel is a good place to start, the show "Wings at War", where actual military pilots are interviewed, should be of great help to you (seriously, no BS).

Let me try putting this another way. You can have the biggest & best weapons on the battlefield, but if you can't fly worth a damn, they're not going to do you much good once someone outflies you & takes you out. I'm fully aware that "fewer" enemies equates to less of a possability of getting shot. But better avoidence also adds to survivability. If you can dodge, then you won't die is the general argument.

worry about you Keith.

If Kawamori had chosen Basara to be an honorable warrior, fighting only when he has to, then that is what Basara would have been. The outcome of the story would then have been determined by Kawamori. If it meant Basara firing a reactive weapon into Gupernich, and him being destroyed, then that is how it would have ended. Sometimes I wonder if you understand that. Sometimes you write posts that make me think you are "living the experience."

Kawamori chose to potray an enemy that couldn't be defeated by weapons, one much stronger with more advanced technology. Fighting them wasn't a winning scenario, only death or enslavement would have resulted had Basara not been there. You can mock me all you want, but you're the one who missed the point of the story. They tried firing a reaction weapon into Gepelnitch, he just handed it right back to them & took out the Stargazer. The porpose was to show a no win situation if fighting would be all you could muster to do.

The same can be said for SDF Macross. If Kawamori had decided to pull a Nishizaki (Space Cruiser Yamato) and had the Macross blow BoDolza's command ship away with one fell swoop (like the Yamato's wave motion gun) then that is how the series would have ended. I agree he made the story more interesting (and original) by having Lynn Minmei confuse the Zentran with her music and a Kiss (though I dislike the whole "singing solution" as it was portrayed in M7) and thus writing the story so the Zentran that had been exposed to the Earth's "culture" joined with the SDF Macross against BoDolza (who as we know was going to kill them all anyway, so it was a Kill or be killed situation for them).

Bodolza was going to kill them anyway because they had been tainted with idea's that would have lead them to peace. If it was simply a matter of the song & kiss, Bodolza would have committed suicide when he first captured Hikaru & Misa. It wasn't the culture shock that was the threat (as it was even shown to be easily gotten used to), it was the idea's that were spreading amongst Britai's fleet.

If Kawamori had done the Yoshiyuki Tomino thing and made Basara a civilian caught up in the war like Amuro Ray, who was forced to fight, rather than willingly fly into combat, without fighting, I would find this character more believable.

And if that had been the scenario, then everyone would have died and or been enslaved by the Protodevelin. You're missing the pivotal aspect of the story. Fighting isn't always going to save your life, especially when you're up against someone stronger than you.

As for Captain Herlock, he kills his enemies, period. I have seen all (except the new series)of the anime of Captain Herlock, from the 70s show to Arcadia of my youth, and his various appearances in 999. The character Herlock is nothing like the Basara character.

Harlock kills because he choses to, he lives his life by his own standards. That is the similarity in the characters. If Harlock decided to just fall in line with the most convenient scenario, he never would have become a pirate.

I went and watched the first 4 episodes again last night (I don't have time to watch all 49 again). I realize that it is not so much the Basara character's music or beliefs, its that he can survive so many battles without getting shot down/destroyed. It's just ludicrous.

Max has never been shot down (unless of course you count DYRL, but that was a mutual defeat), therefore he must be just as ludicrus a character.

However, I am not trying to convince you of whether or not the M7 fleet would have died without Basara's influence. That is acting like M7 is some kind of actual event. No, I am trying to relate to you that Mr. Shoji Kawamori could have made the character Basara more believable.

Your account of believability is specifically tied in with your not being able to accept that someone can fly, not shoot, and still survive in a battle. You can dodge a bullet without returning fire.

It's not. I was picking on Basara as a Jimi Hendrix wanna-be. You know, "Space-Hippie." I like Jimi Hendrix's music, so I guess I was not being fair to Mr. Hendrix. Now that I think of it, it's insulting to compare Hendrix to Basara. Jimi is far better than that. My apologies to any Hendrix fans here.

It's a fair character type comparision, though you might as well throw John Lennon in as well. I just see your insistence that survival in flying equates to killing. You refuse to even comprehend the concept of evasion.

Well, that is your opinion Keith.

Mine is that Kawamori should redo Macross 7 and make it more "realistic" by either eliminating Basara from it completely or changing his character type to a more Kodai or Amuro Ray type character.

We already had that with Hikaru, Macross 7 is taking things to the next level. Kawamori should be commended for not falling into the same old trappings, and actually coming up with a character who sticks to his convinctions. And hell, if you still miss that type of character in 7, there's Gamlin.

In closing (since I feel like I'm writing a persuasive essay), I'd like to finish by saying that other than Superpilot/musician/political activist/special spiritia generating-Basara and the Autobot look of the Soundforce VFs, I like M7.

You just miss the entire purpose of it...

[Keith]

Can someone remind me what the history of the Varuta fighters was supposed to be?  If the Varuta are all brainwashed zents from a previous colonization attempt then it would stand to reason that the Varuta are using Earth fighters right?  Are they modified VF-4s?  Those mechs really did peak my interest but it was tough to admire them on my copy of the series because they don't really stand out well in space battles.

331549[/snapback]

The Varuta are comprised of an expedition team that went in search of the dissapeared Megaroad-13 fleet, later augmented by captured Macross-05 fleet members. Assumedly, the ships would also be rebuilt pieces of the Megaroad-13 fleet. The basis for the early Varuta fighters is the VF-14 Nightmare (that came along with the expedition team), others include designs based on the VB-6 (I think), etc.

[Renato]

Well, that is your opinion Keith. 

Mine is that Kawamori should redo Macross 7 and make it more "realistic" by either eliminating Basara from it completely or changing his character type to a more Kodai or Amuro Ray type character. 

Well, that would make it look like every other sci-fi anime show. It just wouldn't BE Macross 7 anymore.

Besides, Kawamori DID JUST THAT and we got that laughable Macross Zero.

OK, what did I like about it: The music, the characters (except Mylene and Gamlin to an extent), some of the Valkyries (in particular the Full Armoured Thunderbolt) the premise of emotion and the human spirit being more powerful than weapons.

I do however also want to mention that I did not like the fact that Sound Force valks had faces and boobs, nor the ridiculous Fire Bomber stage costumes and the endless recycling of footage.

I've always felt that the premise of M7 was great but the show was ruined by its execution and presentation. On the whole, I enjoyed the show and others I introduced it to did, too. I ought to mention that M7 seems to be more popular among females than SDF Mac, in my experience. Girls in general seem to really hate Minmay.

Edited September 26, 2005 by Renato

[JB0]

OK, what did I like about it:  ... the characters (except Mylene and Gamlin to an extent), ...

NOT Gamlin? I think that's the first time someone's said that.

[Renato]

OK, what did I like about it:  ... the characters (except Mylene and Gamlin to an extent), ...

NOT Gamlin? I think that's the first time someone's said that.

331733[/snapback]

Yeah, I mean, I understand why he's there and what purpose he serves in the narrative, but he's just... a fool.

Besides, I've heard him sing. In fact, the next person who pisses me off on this board gets a full dose of Seventh Moon, Gamlin style. Proof that the devil himself created MP3s.

[Graham]

Bah, everbody knows that Gamlin & Mylene are the main characters of Macross 7, not that singing fool Basara.

Graham

[Renato]

Bah, everbody knows that Gamlin & Mylene are the main characters of Macross 7, not that singing fool Basara.

Graham

331821[/snapback]

Nooooo!!

La-la-la-la! Not listening! La-la-la-la-la!

All things considered, one of the things I LOVED about this show was the character interactivity and relationships between Basara, Mylene, Gamlin and Ray. Even if I didn't care much for one or two of them, it was very entertaining to watch them work together, argue, etc.

[JB0]

Besides, I've heard him sing.  In fact, the next person who pisses me off on this board gets a full dose of Seventh Moon, Gamlin style.  Proof that the devil himself created MP3s. 

331819[/snapback]

HAHAHAHAHA!

[Gideon Krieg]

And yet you constantly complain that because he doesn't shoot, his flying skill is somehow lessoned.

No, I do not dispute Basara's ability to fly his valkyrie. His ability as a pilot is made very clear in the anime.

What I see as unrealistic is his ability to survive against superior numbers of Varuta VFs of compariable manufacture to the VF-19 Kai, being flown by pilots of above-average ability (even in their state) more times than is logical, even for fiction. I guess it reminds me too much of American super-hero comic book characters, which I despise vehemently.

A few battles yes, but Basara survives more battles than is believable.

They just went too far, even for Science Fiction. It would be like Luke Skywalker flying into the Death star battle at the end of Star Wars episode 4, and not firing a shot. The X-wing is superior to the TIE fighter in almost every way but numerous X-wings get shot down by TIEs, not to mention the main turbo-laser batteries.

Had George Lucas writen Star Wars with Luke out there singing to defeat the Empire instead of blowing the Death Star to atoms, the film would never have gone over with American audiences(because of the sheer stupidity of the concept) and Star Wars would have been a complete failure.

Back to M7. Even the fact that Basara is portrayed as a highly proficient pilot is of little consequence compared to the basic military law of "overwhelming numbers always wins out over superior ability or technology/firepower."

As to why Maximillian Jenius is more believable than Basara, that is easy, Max is an ace pilot (by definition a combat pilot who has shot down 5 or more enemy craft). Besides in both the SDF Macross TV series and the Movie, Max is shot down by Milia. If my memory serves me, the Basara character is never shot down. Max's VF-1A also gets shot up in the Breeti's ship and explodes. So Max looses 2 VFs during the course of SDF Macross and Basara looses zero, ziltch, nada. Hikaru looses/damages five VFs, the VF-1D, his VF-1J (Kamjim blows its arm off and wrecks the head), his VF-1J in the cyclops recon pod, another VF-1J in Breeti's ship (on the spikes), and the VF-1S Super in episode 27. Hikaru was an Ace pilot in SDF Macross. So was Roy Fokker, and he gets killed! You expect me to believe that Basarimus-Prime (pick on of Basara because of his autobot looking VF-19) is so invincible that he cannot be destroyed by the varuta who are in fact using variable fighters which are near equal to the VF-19 Kai, but are in greater numbers.

What is Basara a trans-dimensional reject from GI-Joe? Where all kinds of missiles, energy beams, and gunfire fly at him but he can't die or get hurt in a combat zone(I am aware of Basara "dying" somewhere near the end of the series from singing but, that was not during combat).

I suppose if Basara's VF-19 Kai was heavily armored(i.e. an armored VF-19, like the armored VF-11 or VF-1), with a mini-barrier shield (which encircled his entire fighter) rather than a pinpoint barrier, and both his fighter's barrier shield and armor plating was shown taking the damage, I would find his surviving combat more believable. Even if the VF-19 Kai was simply shot to hell every episode Basara went into the battlefield, it would be more believable.

As far as the overall inner message of Macross 7 is concerned, it was not lost on me Keith. I understood it quite well, I just don't agree with it and I find it to be very unrealistic and utopian. Don't get me wrong, I believe in the spirit of mankind to overcome, I just think we need the right tools do it. Sometimes that means using weapons of war.

Besides, I don't find inspiration in anime. Many Otaku do, but I do not. I like the artwork, the mecha, and some of the charaters but the stories and themes are usually to unrealistic for me to take them seriously. Were I 19 years old again, sure, I could get into it, but I've grown beyond such ideological "pie in the sky" wishful thinking.

Don't misunderstand me, Peace is wonderful, but pacifism has never been, nor will it ever be, the solution against a real world agressor or war, even Ghandi died at the hands of an agressor.

If pacifism and talking out differences were a solution to war the world would be a much happier place.

Well Keith, here we are again, at odds over M7. Why. Because you and I disagree about Basara and the overall quality of M7 compared to other anime. Not sure about you but I think we have come to an impass. I'm not going to budge on this one, and I know you won't either.

Therefore;

=====================================================

Back to what I do like about M7!

Gamlin. Yes, I must say I like Gamlin. He is certainly one of the most believable characters in the show. I like how this character's demeanor was developed and the attitude Kawamori or Miyatake (or whoever designed the character's personality) gave him.

Sivil, ahhh what's there not to like.

The Protodevlins were not that bad. However, they do remind me of the row-beasts from Voltron.

Besides, Kawamori DID JUST THAT and we got that laughable Macross Zero. 

To borrow Keith's line. I disagree 100%, Zero was good in my opinion.

I do however also want to mention that I did not like the fact that Sound Force valks had faces and boobs, nor the ridiculous Fire Bomber stage costumes and the endless recycling of footage.

I've always felt that the premise of M7 was great but the show was ruined by its execution and presentation. On the whole, I enjoyed the show and others I introduced it to did, too. I ought to mention that M7 seems to be more popular among females than SDF Mac, in my experience. Girls in general seem to really hate Minmay.

I agree on the autobot looking Sound Force mecha, Crusher-Joe like costumes (unless that's supposed to be an inside joke about Crusher-Joe, then it would make sense).

The J-pop apparently has to grow on you. Now that I am watching M7 for the 4th time, I actually kinda like the music from M7. This comming from a guy who likes Nickel Back. I used to hate the M7 music. Mabe it's brainwashing me or something.

Not likely.

[Keith]

Actually, Max was never shot down by Milia in the TV series, he chased her into the ship, he chased her out. At no point in time was he under pressure from her. And while he did lose a fighter in Britai's ship, it was strictly due to the close quarter combat, with 3 people in tow (unprotected) that he did so. There was no way he could avoid fire in those narrow hallways, especially since he had to protect Hikaru, Misa, & Kakizaki. Considering they all lived, that shouldn't be counted as a defeat.

Max is (everywhere except for DYRL) shown as being just as invincable as Basara, if not more so. In turn, the Varuta mecha are never specified as being as advanced as a VF-19, hell, they're based on earlier models to begin with. He does take hits, he does take damage (you may even recall an issue of maintenance being needed on the VF-19 Kai), but the fact remains he was in a super high tech piece of hardware, and pinpoint barriers are a major help. I'm fine with leaving the argument here, but there were definately some things that needed clearing up. Accept it or not, but your portrayel of the situation is based more on your own personal bias, rather than the situations as they were.

[jenius]

Accept it or not, but your portrayel of the situation is based more on your own personal bias, rather than the situations as they were

Nah, Basara was ridiculous in every way, it's not just his own personal bias. That being said, do we ever learn why he's sooooooo good in combat? Where'd he get his training? Oh man, remember when Gamlin was discussing how Basara routinely breaks some logical performance barrier making Basara a superior pilot...

Oh crud... this is supposed to be a "What I like...." forum. So instead of summing this little debate up with "I like Basara and you're wrong" and "I think Basara is a joke and you're wrong" why don't we just leave it at "Some people like Basara and some don't." I, for one, would rather Mr Hanky star in an outer space sci fi flick than Basara but instead of discussing it in this thread (other than covertly.. as I am now) I simply left him off my list of what I liked about the series. Nobody needs to have the last word here folks, it is clear who likes him and who doesn't.

Edited September 27, 2005 by jenius