Hurricane Katrina

[Kin]

New Orleans had NO MECHANISM WHATSOEVER to deal with a failed levee.

Their entire disaster management strategy for such an incident consisted of sticking their heads in the sand and pretending it couldn't happen.

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Levees notwithstanding, they had no plan for such an event that would have forced the evacuation of the city. I saw an AP photo of school buses that were flooded out and unusable -- rather than hole people up in the Superdome who couldn't leave, why didn't they use those school buses to get them out before Katrina hit?

Where was the New Orleans Police? After 9/11, the NYPD worked double and triple-time. After Katrina, over two hundred NOPD officers laid down their badges and said "screw this," leaving the city to the looters until the National Guard and other law-enforcemetn elements had to come in, and foud it so dangerous that some looters were to be shot on sight. (They had looted guns as well as other goods.)

Now, I don't begrudge the people who were taking food, water and appropriate clothing (note the word apropriate), but it does raise an important question:

Given the position that New Orleans is in, and given that they knew that someday there would be a catastrophic hurricane, where were the stockpiles of disaster supplies? Where was the water and MREs? Where were the public officials to distribute it in the Superdome and Convention Center?

I really believe that, although the Federal and State governments do share in a measure in the culpability for how Katrina's aftermath played out, the bulk of the blame must be placed upon the governments of the Orleans Parish and the government of New Orleans, who were almost criminally negligent, In my opinion.

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yup. I gotta agree with you here.. if people want to build homes in flood planes, or unstable hills or cliffs, let them. but don't go blaming the government when nature comes knocking. Maybe the Federal government could have acted sooner.. but I fail to see how raping, looting TVs and shooting at hospital workers makes things better.

And let's consider, louisiana and other southern states take WAY more of federal tax dollars in aid and subsisdies than any other state and they still can't get their house in order.

I feel for those people, I really do... but instead of praising a mayor that sat around and did nothing before and can't do anything but complain afterwards, try doing something for yourselves.

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Well... at least give them food, water and medicine before lots of people are going to die of starvation and illness.

[neptunesurvey]

Received some more news today. A friend drove by my house and said that a have tree damage to the house put did not say how extensive. Better news is that I got hold of some more friends that are doing well. The communication situation is starting to improve in Mississippi and in Louisiana somewhat.

[JB0]

I heard a flood expert speaking on MSNBC this morning,  He said that the cost to fix the flood situation properly would cost around 14 billion.  Thats around the same figure for Big Dig in Jersey.  He also said the real problem is that with our over consumption of fossil fuels, lack of wetlands, and global warming which is causing rising coastal lines --coastal cities around the globe in the future will have similar problems that NO faced.

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Rising coastlines had nothing to do with New Orleans. NO has been sinking because they've been pumping groundwater out.

Also it's debatable whether global warming was relevant at all. It's usually cited because of the extreme # of hurricanes last year, but... there weren't more than usual at that point in the cycle, it was just coinicidence that more than normal landed, and that the prior years had had a freakishly small # of landings.

And remember, if the New York Times is taking the conservative side of the argument, then you KNOW it has merit.

It IS arguable that global warming is what pushed Katrina up to a Cat5, though. Not provable, but arguable.

[Deadzone]

I think when everything has settled down and the situation has stabilized, an investigation should be done to see why the relief effort took so long. Was this a problem at the federal level, state level, or local government level? Until we get more information about the chain of events that occured in the last week and the details, we should cut down on all the finger pointing. After all is said and done, there will be a lot of blame to go around for everybody. However, we need to remember that this is a natural disaster of proportions the United States has not seen in a while.

I really get tired of people shooting off their mouth based on tid bits of information. We do know Katrina hit on Monday. The levee started to break on Tuesday morning according to a report I read. The National Guard and aid did arrive before Nagin went on the air Thursday pleading for more help. However, the amount of aid was lacking. Looters and gang members were stealing (not just food) and shooting at police officers and civillians. People were held in miserable conditions at the Superdome and Convention Center. Substantial aid did not seem to arrive until Saturday.

Things I would like to know:

1. Why Bush waited until Wednesday to fly back to Washington and then waited until Friday to see the flood site?

2. Did the local governments convey information to the right people to get proper aid?

3. What were FEMA and the National Guard doing during the period from Tuesday to Friday?

4. If people could not get out of NO before Katrina hit because of transportation, why weren't those flooded school buses used instead of just having them sit there and get... well flooded?

It may sound like I'm accusing everybody, but actually, I just want to have an explanation. As I said before, these are extraordinary circumstances, and there ARE reasons why people do things the way they do even if it might not seem apparent. I just remember wondering why the firefighters weren't called out of the second building during 9/11 after the first one collapsed. Later, I read in the 9/11 commission report that the radio transmitter did not function the way that they had hoped, and a lot of firefighters never heard the order.

Interesting how things make sense when more information is available.

[Guest Bromgrev]

Somewhat OT, but watching the aerial footage of the hurricane-hit areas I was struck once again by how most of the housing seems to be wooden, and hence completely destroyed. By contrast, concrete, brick or stone buildings with flat roofs seem to survive structurally intact.

These scenes are repeated whenever a major hurricane strikes the US. Why do things keep getting rebuilt in the same flimsy way? I can understand if no-one these days has heard of the "three little pigs" and their construction methods, but surely developers can learn from recent experiences? Earthquake-prone areas build earthquake-resistant homes, which is technically far more difficult than hurricane-resistant buildings.

Just wondering if there is some reason behind this.

[one_klump]

The reason the feds didn't respond the first day is because our idiot govener didn't declare a state of emergancy. FEMA requires a state of emergancy to be declared by the govener bbefore they get the clearence to act.

[JB0]

Things I would like to know:

1. Why Bush waited until Wednesday to fly back to Washington and then waited until Friday to see the flood site?

I can't confirm it, but I've heard they requested he stay away because they couldn't supply proper security.

4. If people could not get out of NO before Katrina hit because of transportation, why weren't those flooded school buses used instead of just having them sit there and get... well flooded?

Gross incompetence, near as I can tell.

[Sumdumgai]

Somewhat OT, but watching the aerial footage of the hurricane-hit areas I was struck once again by how most of the housing seems to be wooden, and hence completely destroyed. By contrast, concrete, brick or stone buildings with flat roofs seem to survive structurally intact.

These scenes are repeated whenever a major hurricane strikes the US. Why do things keep getting rebuilt in the same flimsy way? I can understand if no-one these days has heard of the "three little pigs" and their construction methods, but surely developers can learn from recent experiences? Earthquake-prone areas build earthquake-resistant homes, which is technically far more difficult than hurricane-resistant buildings.

Just wondering if there is some reason behind this.

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Because people and their lives are cheap.

It's the whole "it won't happen to me" mindset. They put their priorities on more immediate things, rather than hypothetical things. It took how long for predictions of NO being flooded to come true? Quite a few years, and each year it didn't happen, so people thought "it's all good, it's just a hypothesis. There's no real danger."

What is really bugging me is the animosity a lot of black and non-black people are showing towards the situation. There's calls of racism because of a slow response. I've from travelling that the only country I've been to that there isn't this animosity from blacks towards whites (and whites that are super-PC) is Brasil.

There isn't a big chip on everyone's shoulder, ready to blow up over perceived racism. The black people there are really secure about themselves and their heritage. Hell they had a magazine called "ni**er" magazine, to celebrate and be proud of their culture! (left out some letters, so no one jumps down my throat).

I just can't believe that there's such racial animosity in people who are in this crisis. I was reading in an article how some black people thought that the government flooded the black areas of the city to keep white homes from being flooded!

[JB0]

I was reading in an article how some black people thought that the government flooded the black areas of the city to keep white homes from being flooded!

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BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's just too funny to ignore.

[Golden Arms]

Just wondering if there is some reason behind this.

325983[/snapback]

Because people and their lives are cheap.

It's the whole "it won't happen to me" mindset. They put their priorities on more immediate things, rather than hypothetical things. It took how long for predictions of NO being flooded to come true? Quite a few years, and each year it didn't happen, so people thought "it's all good, it's just a hypothesis. There's no real danger."

What is really bugging me is the animosity a lot of black and non-black people are showing towards the situation. There's calls of racism because of a slow response. I've from travelling that the only country I've been to that there isn't this animosity from blacks towards whites (and whites that are super-PC) is Brasil.

There isn't a big chip on everyone's shoulder, ready to blow up over perceived racism. The black people there are really secure about themselves and their heritage. Hell they had a magazine called "ni**er" magazine, to celebrate and be proud of their culture! (left out some letters, so no one jumps down my throat).

I just can't believe that there's such racial animosity in people who are in this crisis. I was reading in an article how some black people thought that the government flooded the black areas of the city to keep white homes from being flooded!

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I think your right on some points. I think complaceny and this "its happened before and it wasn't such a big thing then " mentality was present in alot of peoples minds. Some have stated that they didn't think it would happen to them.

Just looking at all of the offshore casinos that were destroyed off the coast of Miss clearly indicates that they really never thought a Hurricane would destroy their locale.

But I think you've clearly missed the boat on the whole racial component of this tragedy. Race is a clear subtext in the tragedy, but its not the story. NO is roughly 2/3 african american if I remember correctly. Therefore most of the people that were going to be hit were going to be black. If most of the city is black that stands to reason that most of the poor are going to be african american as well.

Mostof the issues are breaking down along socioeconomic lines. If you were middle class to rich you probably got out of the area before the hurricane. If you were poor, elderly, sick chances were you didn't get out of the area. Many of those that didn't leave,live paycheck to paycheck and alot of them didn't have transportation means to pick up and leave. So in short there should have been better public transportation options to those that didn't own cars, and SUVS. Joe Scarbarough(ex congressman) said on his MSNBC show that some of the areas that were hit in Miss some of the people there were so poor that they couldn't even afford to pay for gas to fill up their vehicles. Anyone who's familiar with Mississippi knows that isn't a far fetched reality.

The ex mayor of NO said in 98 (I think it was after Hurrincane Georges) they did polls afterwards to see who did &wouldn't evacuate. 50% responded that they left, 25 % went to the superdome, and roughly another 25% stayed in their homes. That being said there was data to show a significant portion of the population was going to be left behind in a future Hurricane.

The anger or animosity issue you touched on is misplaced. Those people have lost everything, So I think that entitles them to be angry or experiencing a whole myriad of emotions. I'd be angry too if I were in a similar sitaution especially considering the fact that all levels of govt failed to protect them in such a extreme manner. The sole purpose of any govt is to protect its citizens, which clearly did not happen.

NO has one of the richest/greatest black cultural histories in the Americas. So I don't think for a second that the people there are pissed off because for some reason they are insecure about their culture. Which you seem to impy. Any black person living in the deep south can tell you that their racial experiences can differ dramatically from their white counterparts in this day and age.

It seems to me that they were pissed by the complete incompetence of the response to the situation. This morning I heard reports of taxi drivers that were picking up whites but wouldn't pick up blacks.

[Goshawk]

I just found out that I might have electrcity at my house in Slidell in a couple days. I just hope thats true.

I would be glad just to go back home.

[Major Johnathan]

Kanye West (spelling?) was hilarious. "I hate the way they portray us in the media"... that coming from a rap 'artist'... And that crack about how white looters are portrayed as just trying to survive while black looters are portrayed as lowly thugs. Well, I think I saw about 2 or 3 white looters and I heard no one excusing them, everyone has made the distinction between taking food and water to survive and looting cars, ATM's, sporting goods and electronics for greed. And once the climate of that kind of looting happens, rape and murder galore follows, but hey, it's no big deal.

Poor Mike Myers... he looked so petrified.

And Celine Dion.... Thank you so much Quebec...

[phuqueue]

And that crack about how white looters are portrayed as just trying to survive while black looters are portrayed as lowly thugs. Well, I think I saw about 2 or 3 white looters and I heard no one excusing them, everyone has made the distinction between taking food and water to survive and looting cars, ATM's, sporting goods and electronics for greed.

He was referring specifically to a set of pictures of looters that were released a few days ago by the AP. Two pictures were of black looters, and the caption specifically referred to them as looters. The third picture was of white looters, and the caption said that they "found" their food. The picture has long since been pulled, but you can still find screen captures of it:

[JB0]

And that crack about how white looters are portrayed as just trying to survive while black looters are portrayed as lowly thugs. Well, I think I saw about 2 or 3 white looters and I heard no one excusing them, everyone has made the distinction between taking food and water to survive and looting cars, ATM's, sporting goods and electronics for greed.

He was referring specifically to a set of pictures of looters that were released a few days ago by the AP. Two pictures were of black looters, and the caption specifically referred to them as looters. The third picture was of white looters, and the caption said that they "found" their food. The picture has long since been pulled, but you can still find screen captures of it:

http://x7.putfile.com/8/24210141023.gif

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Of course, the black guy's hauling a bag as big as he is. That tends to look bad.

Other hand, "finding food" sounds retarded. It's quite possible they were just looking for a diffrent caption.

Either way, I find that aniGIF more offensive than any racism present.

[Deadzone]

I read Hillary Clinton wants a commission put together to investigate what went wrong in the reaction time of the relief effort. I hope this happens. Usually, stuff like this is done just to try and make the other party look bad. However, it makes sense to figure out where the whole relief process broke down so they can fix it for the next major natural disaster or terrorist attack that hits the United States. Also, I just want to know WTF happened.

[Mislovrit]

Of course, the black guy's hauling a bag as big as he is. That tends to look bad.

Other hand, "finding food" sounds retarded. It's quite possible they were just looking for a diffrent caption.

Either way, I find that aniGIF more offensive than any racism present.

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Has anyone read this news article on this subject?

Articl posted for those too lazy to click link.

Photo Captions From Katrina Stir Debate

By JOCELYN NOVECK, Associated Press Writer

Friday, September 2, 2005

(09-02) 15:23 PDT NEW YORK, (AP) --

In one of the photos, a man wades through chest-deep waters with a large black bag filled with items from a grocery store. In another, two people wade through equally high waters, carrying bread and soda.

They were just two out of hundreds of stunning images transmitted Tuesday, the day after Katrina ravaged New Orleans. What has drawn attention to these two photos, though, is their captions.

In the first, the young man, who is black, is described as having "looted" the items. In the second, the pair, who are white or light-skinned, are described as "finding" the items.

The photos were by two different photographers working for two different news agencies, The Associated Press and AFP/Getty Images. But they appeared together on Yahoo News, and they sparked a flurry of blog entries, emails and calls contending the captions were unfair to blacks.

"The pictures appear to be identical but one individual is "looting" and the other is "finding" needed items!" one person wrote the AP. "This is irresponsible journalism and fuels the attitude that 'all' African-Americans are looters."

On Thursday, Yahoo withdrew the photo of the light-skinned pair at the request of Agence France Presse, which distributes Getty's U.S-produced photos internationally. In a note, Yahoo wrote it "regrets that these photos and captions, viewed together, may have suggested a racial bias on our part.

AFP said it withdrew the photo because it had been flooded with time-consuming phone calls and emails, while already stretched covering the enormous tragedy.

"It's safe to say that it was just causing us a lot of problems," said Bob Pearson, AFP's director of photography in the United States.

The Associated Press said its policy was clear.

"When we see people go into businesses and come out with goods, we call it looting," said Santiago Lyon, AP's director of photography. "When we just see them carrying things down the road, we call it carrying items."

Lyon said the photographer who took Tuesday's photo, Dave Martin, had seen the man go into the store and take out the items.

As for the other photo, Getty said it stood by its caption and its photographer, Chris Graythen, who says the subjects of his photo were simply picking up items floating by in the dank waters.

And Graythen, frustrated by the controversy, wrote an emotional response on a photojournalism Web site, SportsShooter.com.

"These people were not ducking into a store and busting down windows to get electronics," he wrote. "They picked up bread and cokes that were floating in the water. They would have floated away anyhow."

Yahoo said it believed the controversy was merely a result of the juxtaposition of the two photos.

"We've explained that this was two separate news organizations, two separate photographers and two separate occasions," said Joanna Stevens, spokeswoman for Yahoo Inc. "Once people understand that, they're no longer angry with us."

Edited September 6, 2005 by Mislovrit

[Major Johnathan]

Ummm, what about it? Like I say, no rational person has a problem with 'stealing,looting or finding' food or water. I haven't heard a single person say otherwise. I remember seeing footage of a bunch of people (nearly all black) 'finding' food in a Supermarket and they were cleaning out the shelves.

That's understandable and excuseable. It's the people smashing through pane glass windows to get at Plasma TVs and other electronics, people carjacking or stealing parked brand new cars, or walikng off with 20 pairs of new Nikes. That's just plain looting, not excuseable, not justifiable. And once that starts, why not burn down the place when your done? And while your at the car dealers, why not smash up the nice brand new cars? Why not rape that woman who can't defend herself? It's not like she can call the police, they're busy looting too. Why not kill that jerk that never showed you proper respect? And now that you've done that, why not take shots at rescue choppers or ambulances, after all, your having too much fun to be rescued just yet.

It's those looters that need to be shot, shot repeatedly and shot dead. I don't care what they're race is, but it so happens the vast, vast majority are black. I know that's not PC and all, but it's true. The looters not only killed directly, but indirectly many more suffered or died beacuse the rescuers had to worry about being shot.

As far as the AP pictures go, it doesn't help that the kid is dragging a bag bigger than himslef and the white woman has one little plastic bag. Does the white guy even have anything? Besides, the AP isn't known for it's conservative bias, so I think it's amusing for them too fumble around with explanations.

Edited September 6, 2005 by Major Johnathan

[JB0]

  It's those looters that need to be shot, shot repeatedly and shot dead. I don't care what they're race is, but it so happens the vast, vast majority are black. I know that's not PC and all, but it's true. The looters not only killed directly, but indirectly many more suffered or died beacuse the rescuers had to worry about being shot.

Of course, it's to be expected tha thte vast majority are black. Not because "them blackies are all crooked", but because NO's population is/was 80% black to start with.

  As far as the AP pictures go, it doesn't help that the kid is dragging a bag bigger than himslef and the white woman has one little plastic bag. Does the white guy even have anything?

Backpack.

But only the black guy was the AP.

Besides, the AP isn't known for it's conservative bias, so I think it's amusing for them too fumble around with explanations.

There's nothing to explain. AP policy is if they're taking stuff from a store and no one's there, you caption them as looters. So the black guy's a looter. They can't control what other syndicates put under their pictures.

[EXO]

I know a lot of stupid things are being said by a few stupid people, but can we lay off the racial stuff? It just doesn't represent the majority of people concerned, no matter what race they are.

[Major Johnathan]

I'm also really sick of the notion that beacuse some of the people were poor they just couldn't evacuate. I've been poor, it sucks but it's not an excuse for stupidity. Poor doesn't equal helpless. The only people who really were helpless were the sick and old, and according to the offical evacuation plan for the city of New Orleans, they were supposed to evacuate exactly those people with the over 500 city buses that they never used. How that is anyone's responsibilty besides Mayor Nagin, I don't know. The same goes for the evacuation of the Superdome and Convention center, it was the city's duty to bus them out.

Yeah, we really need a commision to 'find the facts', those commisions always do a bang up job, never get political or partisan or turn into blame game show trials. I can't wait. The 9/11 commision was very enlightening and we're so much safer from terrorism nowadays.

The number one reason so many died or suffered, they didn't take the many warnings seriously. Like many of us, they figured it was media hype. The media goes nuts every time a category one comes ashore, and how many Hurricanes have wound up weakening drastically just before landfall. The damage always seems less than the apocalyptic scenarios the media puts out before hand, and now finally, we got a real storm.

Point being, the people are to blame, the media is to blame, every level of government is to blame (especially at the city level .), Pres. Bush is to blame, but so is every past President for more than a century. The people never want to spend money to prevent these things, they say they do, but try cutting pork or raising taxes, either way people whine and politicians cave. People choose to live in disater prone places and hope for the best. That's why people playing politics with this mess make me so angry, it was an act of nature and human nature, what the hell are people doing trying to pick out people to pin it on or cry racism?

Yeah this topic makes me rant... sorry.

[JB0]

And the latest in tasteless newscasting... CNN is advertizing a link where you can "Watch: Bodies bobbing in the water"

Screenshot provided to prove I can't make this stuff up.

Edited September 6, 2005 by JB0

[Jemstone]

And the latest in tasteless newscasting... CNN in sadvertizing a link where you can "Watch: Bodies bobbing in the water"

Screenshot provided to prove I can't make this stuff up.

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Yeah, man, I saw that today and was hoping my eye sight had gone bad. WHy would one want to watch bodied floating in the water? Tasteless is an understatement.

[Deadzone]

Quote: Yeah, we really need a commision to 'find the facts', those commisions always do a bang up job, never get political or partisan or turn into blame game show trials. I can't wait. The 9/11 commision was very enlightening and we're so much safer from terrorism nowadays.

Actually, I found the 9/11 commission report to be very enlightening. True, you had people blaming each other for why certain things happened. However, the report never says that one side is right or one side is wrong. It was more of a collection of information they found by interviewing the various people involved with Homeland Security at the time 9/11 happened and the years leading up to the tragic event. You as the reader need to make up your decision based on this information. (Which guy do you believe? Who's really at fault? etc...). Kind of like a documentary that shows both sides of a story.

I found it definitely more informative than listening to people make a bunch of uninformed comments without having any factual basis. Seems like in this country citizens believe the louder and more outraged they are, the more their arguments are supported. Doesn't work that way.

[JB0]

Seems like in this country citizens believe the louder and more outraged they are, the more their arguments are supported. Doesn't work that way.

I thought that was a global trait.

That's been my experience, at least.

[Major Johnathan]

The problem I had with the 9/11 commisions is one; Jamie Gorelick was a commision member, this is a fatal flaw as she was personally involved in the 'wall' erected between law enforcement and intelligence so that info sharing was practically forbidden between agencies. I'm not saying she's Satan or personally responsible for 9/11, but she was part of the problems that lead to 9/11. She should have been a witness.

Second; numerous occaisions where the gallery was stacked with partisan 9/11 family members that had an interesting habit of jeering Bush officials and applauding Clinton officials.

Third; Pres. Clinton's National Security Adviser, Sandy Berger, was actually caught smuggling classified documents out of the National Archives in the midst of the hearings. The documents he smuggled were damaging to the Clinton administration. Incredibly he wasn't sentenced to Jail. If Condi Rice did that, she'd be crucified,burned at the stake,put on the rack and then beheaded.

Fourth; Able Danger was seemingly ignored by the commision, again, the info is embarressing(or worse) to the Clinton Administration. I wonder if the partisan 9/11 families might have been interested in knowing U.S. intelligence was aware of Mohammed Atta and other hijackers BEFORE Bush ever took office. The members of Able Danger should have been star witness's.

With that recent history, I'm just a bit cynical that a 'Katrina Commision' will be anything other than a grand political 'blame it on Bush', feces throwing disgrace that will be used by any number of 2008 campaign wannabes.

I'll give the conclusions right now.

1. George Bush ignored Global Warming. Had he signed the Kyoto treaty in 2001, Katrina would never have materialized.

2. Bush cruelly refused to fund a levy building upgrade that would have saved everyone's lives.

3. Mayor Nagin was faultless, his leadership inspired. He heroically threw 4 letter tirades at Bush for his incompetence.

4. Bush will be proven to 'not care about black people'.

5. No Democrat, past or present bears any responsibility.

6. All Republicans, past, present and future bear full responsibility for everything.

7. That New Orleans was uniquely vulnerable to flooding was realized only after Bush took office., and he did nothing.

8. The New Orleans Young Republican club did in fact slash the tires of the 500+ municipal buses so Mayor Nagin couldn't evacuate the city.

9. The Iraq war angered Allah, so he sent Katrina to destroy NO.

10. VP Cheney really did use weather control technology to create Katrina, smashed it into NO just to get Anti-Iraq War activist Cindy Sheehan out of the headlines. He picked NO because it's mostly a black city.

11. The media, the people of the U.S., Louisiana and New Orleans bear absolutely no responsibility for not building adequate levy's. (for the past 100 years mind you.)

12. France, Canada and the UN warned Bush days if not weeks ahead of time that huge hurricane would strike NO, and Bush ignored their warnings.

13. Bush wanted Katrina to hit NO so it would knock out refineries and cause gas shortages and high gas prices.

14. VP Cheney laughed maniacally, then said "excellent".

Phew! that wraps up the Katrina Commision.

Edited September 6, 2005 by Major Johnathan

[Guest Bromgrev]

And with that descent into party politics, I think it's time to end this thread.

[Mechamaniac]

I've seen too many opinions here to quote all the ones I agree/disagree with, and try to give a point/counterpoint, so I will just say this....

1. PEOPLE bear the greatest responsibility for their own well being. Yes, the infirm, the elderly, and the very young were not at fault for this as they have to depend on those more able bodied to care for them.

However, for so many people to show up at the Superdome, and the Convention Center, and allow themselves to stay in those deplorable conditions reflects upon the all too prevalent "cradle to the grave" mentality that people have towards the government. If I had escaped the hurricane, and showed up at either of those places with my wife and kids in tow, I would have taken one look, and kept on walking...

No food

No water

Human waste

Corpses

Refuse

What was to be gained by staying there?. NOTHING. Which reflects again on the mentality of people to sit and wait for someone else to bail them out. Sorry, but as long as my legs kept working, I would have kept walking, and I guarantee you, I would have gotten myself and my family out of that city. What about the roving thugs blah blah?. Common sense, travel by day, rest by night, keep your eyes open, and your trigger finger ready.

However, this brings to light another point...everyone reading this thread should ask themselves the question - What would I do?.

Do you have a disaster preparedness plan for your home/family?

Do you have adequate food and water stored?

Could you survive in your home for days on end with no power, water?

I can tell you my answer, and it was NO. But it won't stay that way for long.

2. Ray Nagin - I was all for his rant when I originally heard it, but then I saw the pic of the NO schoolbus yard, and all sympathy I had for the man went right out the window. As the mayor, you can bet your last dollar that HE KNEW the statistics of how many people would not evacuate in that situation, and it was HIS RESPONSIBILITY to at least try and get some of them out. Could he have gotten all of them out? NO. But when all the chips have fallen from this, you know someone is going to ask him how dare he rant on like that when he clearly had the means to transport at least some of them out, and I can hear the dead silence, and paper shuffling that will be the response to that question now.

3. - Federal Aid - Was it too slow? YES. That is partially the fault of the federal government combining FEMA with DOHS, and planning for terrorist attacks, and not natural disasters. Somewhere, they should have realized that the results of either of those scenarios are pretty much the same. The amount of damage we're seeing in NO would be roughly the same as if a small nuke had been detonated there. Parts of the city would be levelled, and the shock wave would either cause the levees to break, or affect the lake in such a way that the resultant pressure would have broken the levees, so you would wind up with a destroyed, flooded city. Bottom line is that DOHS and FEMA have a massive budget, and it is clear that they have been spending too much of it at the airports trying to prevent another 9/11.

However, Katherine Blanco has to take the hit on this as well. All of the news agencies are reporting the same fact....that she did not declare disaster and request federal aid until Wednesday. Given that, the soldiers showing up on Friday is acceptable.

Remember folks, that the first groups of soldiers to show up were National Guard, that means that they first had to leave their own jobs, families, and lives, pack up their stuff, head to the armory, pack up the unit, lay on supplies, weapons, and wait for orders to move out. I know what I'm talking about here, I was both Active Duty and National Guard, and was deployed by the guard more than once. It takes time to mobilize that many troops, equipment, and supplies. Also remember that to ask this of the Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama units is even more problematic since they had their own problems to deal with. This means that whatever NG aid was coming, was coming from many miles away.

Now, the one thing that keeps popping into my mind when I think about this is....DUH!!!. I mean, clearly, what we have seen here is a breakdown of government at local, state, and federal levels and at a critical time. Did Blanco wait too long to declare disaster/emergency?. YES. However, should she really have had to?. For something like this, when everyone expected the whammy, there should be a federal statute that overrides the one that states that they cannot move in until requested.

4. Looters - Phuck 'em. If you are seen carrying anything but food or medicine, you get a nice set of matching bracelets, or a bullet. Whether you're White, Black, Tan, Yellow, Purple, whatever. Is there sense in starving, or getting sick when there's a grocery store full of food / medicines that will rot away (and ultimately be written off in an insurance claim) anyway?.

OK, rant mode off, sorry for the long ass post.

FINALLY - Regardless of the situtations and individual choices (good or bad) made by the now evacuees of NO, my heart goes out to all of them. I am thankful that our members were all spared, and brave enough to tell us about their own personal stories. It is times like this when I miss being in the Army. I can guarantee that if I was still in, I would be in that area if I wasn't in the sandbox.

[Dobber]

AMEN!

Chris

[reddsun1]

1.  PEOPLE bear the greatest responsibility for their own well being.  Yes, the infirm, the elderly, and the very young were not at fault for this as they have to depend on those more able bodied to care for them. 

However, for so many people to show up at the Superdome, and the Convention Center, and allow themselves to stay in those deplorable conditions reflects upon the all too prevalent "cradle to the grave" mentality that people have towards the government.  If I had escaped the hurricane, and showed up at either of those places with my wife and kids in tow, I would have taken one look, and kept on walking...

2.  Ray Nagin - I was all for his rant when I originally heard it, but then I saw the pic of the NO schoolbus yard, and all sympathy I had for the man went right out the window. 

3. - Federal Aid - Was it too slow?  YES. 

4. Looters - Phuck 'em.  If you are seen carrying anything but food or medicine, you get a nice set of matching bracelets, or a bullet.  Whether you're White, Black, Tan, Yellow, Purple, whatever.  Is there sense in starving, or getting sick when there's a grocery store full of food / medicines that will rot away (and ultimately be written off in an insurance claim) anyway?.

OK, rant mode off, sorry for the long ass post. 

I agree with a lot of what you've said. In regards to pt. 1: I try to see it from all pts of view before rushing to judgement, though. True, there's no reason that so many able bodied, otherwise healty people should have stayed in that situation for so long. But bear in mind, these people were told in effect "this is the evacuation plan; if you're at the Superdome, we'll send in buses to get you out..." and they waited and waited and waited, and the buses never [for 5+ days, was it?] came. Do you risk leaving everyone you know and strike out on you own, only to be left behind if/when the buses do come? When I looked at some satellite photos of the area around the Superdome, it appears that nearly everything was flooded around that area--if you strike out on your own, where in the world do you go? Should they have just sat around like sheep waiting to be herded? Probably not; but I try to remember that a lot of those folk probably didn't have any idea of where to even try to go.

Pt. 2: yeah, Nagin's gonna catch hell for that rant, as well as the city's being caught with their pants down. A lot of people seemed to have dropped the ball from a planning/preparation standpoint.

Pt. 3: true, true, 'nuff said.

Pt. 4: Hear! Hear! I couldn't agree more. Trying to get nourishment is one thing, but anybody stealing ATM's, money, starting fires, and stupid sh-t like that ought to be dealt with appropriately. Deciding just who is looting becomes a much more cloudy issue, though [as shown by the pics above] especially if you're depending on the media for your viewpoint.

I just saw the clip of Kanye West. LMAOROTF! He looks like he's in an insomnia or drug induced rant, like he's ready to strip naked and run off the stage, screaming. The looks on Meyers' and Tucker's faces was gold! But seriously, that was not the time or the place for such personal tirades. Totally inappropriate, Kanye. What an absurd thing to say: "George Bush doesn't care about black people." That's not accurate at all. George Bush doesn't care about poor people; he doesn't bother about what color they are...

I'm sorry Kanye, but you can only take that argument so far. After some point, that dog just won't hunt. While I try to understand the desparate situation, I can't help but be embarassed and infuriated by some of what I saw reported. I think "all the world is looking at this, and we as a people [Americans, not just black Americans] are being set back 20 years in the eyes of the world by this iganant sh-t." Do I expect to see a decidedly skewed view of the victims in regards to the color of the faces that flash across the screen? Yes; that's simply because that's 65-70% of the population make-up of the area they're covering. But to see folk behaving like godda--ed fools, when they need more than ever to stick together...to think that rescue workers, helicopter pilots and cops are refusing to continue rescue ops, to go into certain areas because ignorant muh fuh's are attacking them and shooting at them. God that makes me mad. Of course, the media focuses in on those sorts of displays of foolishness with laser-like intensity. To paraphrase that classic tome of hip hop, The Chronic: "It don't take but one ignant black muh fuh to fu-k it up for 25,000 other black muh fuhs..." Stupid bast--ds re-inforcing the stereotypes, making it harder for the rest of us...

Nobody seems to be raising one blaringly obvious question: if it was so difficult to mobilize and get aid into the affected regions, how is it the news crews got there so damn fast, and in such numbers? "We need help, we need the army..." Oh there was an army there, alright. The army of the press, armed to the teeth with their trusty cameras and microphones, hunting out misery and trauma for their next segment. Anybody else notice, all the news networks were there, with numbers of idiot reporters there sufficient for round-the-clock coverage? You muh fuh's can stick a camera in somebody's face and ask asenine sh-t like "your house and belongings just washed away; what were your thoughts?" But you can't buy some godda-n bottles of water and put 'em in your news van to hand out to the people whose suffering you so vigorously seek out?

Edited September 6, 2005 by reddsun1

[Deadzone]

The problem I had with the 9/11 commisions is one; Jamie Gorelick was a commision member, this is a fatal flaw as she was personally involved in the 'wall' erected between law enforcement and intelligence so that info sharing was practically forbidden between agencies. I'm not saying she's Satan or personally responsible for 9/11, but she was part of the problems that lead to 9/11. She should have been a witness.

  Second; numerous occaisions where the gallery was stacked with partisan 9/11 family members that had an interesting habit of jeering Bush officials and applauding Clinton officials.

Third; Pres. Clinton's National Security Adviser, Sandy Berger, was actually caught smuggling classified documents out of the National Archives in the midst of the hearings. The documents he smuggled were damaging to the Clinton administration. Incredibly he wasn't sentenced to Jail. If Condi Rice did that, she'd be crucified,burned at the stake,put on the rack and then beheaded.

  Fourth; Able Danger was seemingly ignored by the commision, again, the info is embarressing(or worse) to the Clinton Administration. I wonder if the partisan 9/11 families might have been interested in knowing U.S. intelligence was aware of Mohammed Atta and other hijackers BEFORE Bush ever took office. The members of Able Danger should have been star witness's.

  With that recent history, I'm just a bit cynical that a 'Katrina Commision' will be anything other than a grand political 'blame it on Bush', feces throwing disgrace that will be used by any number of  2008 campaign wannabes.

326183[/snapback]

Actually, after reading through the 9/11 commission report, I thought it did put a larger amount of blame on Clinton's administration than the Bush administration. There is a section that talks about how the CIA had a plan to take out Osama Bin Laden, but the operation was called off at the last moment. Also, it talks about how Military higher ups believed Osama Bin Laden was a big threat and some wanted to send in ground troops to get him. However, they were never given the green light to do it. Instead, Clinton authorized missle strikes that were ineffective because Osama was constantly moving so by the time the strike happened, he would already be gone. To me the commission just presented the information, and you as a reader needed to decide how you felt about it.

Now with the levee plugged up, even Bush has said he wants the relief effort investigated. Why? For obvious reasons.

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/US/Bush_Administration/

Click on video of Bush vows probe.

We need to figure out what went wrong during the last week so that next time this happens, people will know what to do.

[Zentrandude]

this is way into political now.

With all this blame it may hamper the progress with the clean up and restoration of order with media looking on the workers/rescuers giving them more stress to be "politicaly right" The internet has been playing a major role in helping them find lost love ones and to share their stories and even some of us on mw was effected directly by it so theres a good chance this thread may feed the fire thats ever growing along with countless other websites proly doing the same.

[phuqueue]

Either way, I find that aniGIF more offensive than any racism present.

326113[/snapback]

Well it was one that I had just seen someone post, so it was the easiest for me to grab. Apologies to anyone that's offended by it.

[Major Johnathan]

I just want to say, this thread delves into some politics beacuse politics has been hopelessly injected into a natural disater. You can't talk about NO without politics at every turn, that's what I think is a shame and why it made me so angry.

Ask Kanye West as he tries to get people to donate to the Red Cross. (I love how he admits he hadn't contributed a dime and felt bad about it, so now he'd check with his manager... )

[Ladic]

Sean Penn's rescue bid sinks

From correspondents in New Orleans

05sep05

EFFORTS by Hollywood actor Sean Penn to aid New Orleans victims stranded by Hurricane Katrina foundered badly overnight, when the boat he was piloting to launch a rescue attempt sprang a leak.

Penn had planned to rescue children waylaid by Katrina's flood waters, but apparently forgot to plug a hole in the bottom of the vessel, which began taking water within seconds of its launch.

The actor, known for his political activism, was seen wearing what appeared to be a white flak jacket and frantically bailing water out of the sinking vessel with a red plastic cup.

When the boat's motor failed to start, those aboard were forced to use paddles to propel themselves down the flooded New Orleans street. Asked what he had hoped to achieve in the waterlogged city, the actor replied: "Whatever I can do to help."

With the boat loaded with members of Penn's entourage, including a personal photographer, one bystander taunted the actor: "How are you going to get any people in that thing?"

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/st...64^1702,00.html

[Agent ONE]

Thats awesome, Sean Penn is a dildo.