My Thoughts On Macross 7

[DeathHammer]

Please Delete Thanks

Edited February 8, 2010 by DeathHammer

[HWR MKII]

The main difference i have seen,also what makes me not like M7 as much, is series length. SDF TV had 36 episodes to convey a large story which made the story move very quickly and kept you interested. M7 has 50+ episodes intotal to tell a story roughly the same size as SDF TV but seemed to drag its heels doing it until the last 10 episodes. Overall the series is ok but really needed alot more work. There were too many episodes of the band getting to the next gig and wondering where Basara went to that have nothing to do with advancing the overall story. The whole are Max and Milia divorced or not wasnt cleared up well enough i think, nor were any of the other character love interests. Like Evangelion it raised more questions about the characters than they could ansewr in the alloted time.

I dont hate the series but it isnt my first choice on a rainy sunday for viewing.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

There was a lot of filler episodes imo.

-Not enough fighting

-The enemies couldn't be taken seriously

-repetition

-the cool things were too spread thinly (max and milia's use of vf22s and the milia episode with her classic VF1)

....hell, this wasn't even supposed to made was it?

It was just tacked on for milking the macross name I bet.

Now if they ever make another tv series it will have to accept this as canon. (which is why I propose they either treat this as non-canon like macross II, or just create alternate universe like gundam series incorporating some of the themes with completely different people with unique character designs that are not cliche)

If they could just start from where macross plus left off (with the same serious tone) that'd be cool. The ideas were cool (of the protodevlin having come from another dimension and having powers humans and aliens in this world had not seen, but I think the execution was weak. They could have made this kinda scary, put more detail into how the humans investigated these ancient beings, and how the sounds effect them.

The spiritua farm project in collecting people and draining peoples life force, because these beings are not from this universe, was a good idea as it gave them a good reason to want to feed off others (like a vampire) but there was so much potential to make it work without needing to make the show repetitive, and full of filler.

Edited August 28, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[azrael]

Seriously....you kids need to learn how to watch long series. I find this to be a very bad trend in viewers these days. Thanks to 20-some episode seasons and all that stuff, you are use to everything happening at once. I've watched a lot of long series (most of them being romatic comedies) and if you think M7 is bad, watch Maison Ikoku. It's virtually 70 episodes of the same thing happening every episode. I find lots of series to be too short these days and too spread out. M7 goes at a good pace. Sure it has low spots but what long series doesn't. Maybe I'm more patient and older. But even when I did watch it all those years ago, I never found it going too slow.

The songs in particular were tough to deal with. Having a female sing them would have made a world of difference. You take a genre that has predominately male fans and you give them a male singer, then you got uhappy fans. Live TV tried it once, taking a genre aimed at males and having guys sing , it was called Cop Rock. A 80s police musical by Stephen Bochco that lasted 4-5 episodes before ABC mercifully put it down like a gimpy horse.

Ummm....Mylene does sing....and they do duets...Most people are use to a female vocal in Macross, because that's what been used the most. Yoshiki Fukuyama is actually good, and I never had a problem with it. Although, I have been exposed to more male Japanese vocals so I don't find it to be a problem.

[HWR MKII]

Maison Ikoku was awesome. I think the problem with pace also comes with what the viewer expects from the title. The other macross series moved at a relatively quick pace this one just seemed to plod along in comparison. Maison was supposed to be like the way it was to make the viewer say "enough already tell her you love her" M7 on the other hand wouldnt have been as bad if they changed basaras song up more often than they did. Theres alot of Fire Bomber songs out there but they reused the same 3 or 4 throughout..

[treatment]

Seriously....you kids need to learn how to watch long series. I find this to be a very bad trend in viewers these days. Thanks to 20-some episode seasons and all that stuff, you are use to everything happening at once. I've watched a lot of long series (most of them being romatic comedies) and if you think M7 is bad, watch Maison Ikoku. It's virtually 70 episodes of the same thing happening every episode. I find lots of series to be too short these days and too spread out. M7 goes at a good pace. Sure it has low spots but what long series doesn't. Maybe I'm more patient and older. But even when I did watch it all those years ago, I never found it going too slow.

*sigh*

MI == excellent.

M7 == crap.

I suggest that you use another anime-title that has long episode-count instead of sullying MI's reputation.

[JB0]

M7 on the other hand wouldnt have been as bad if they changed basaras song up more often than they did. Theres alot of Fire Bomber songs out there but they reused the same  3 or 4 throughout..

323817[/snapback]

Seconded. By the time they added a second song to the program, I never wanted to hear Planet Dance again.

[Noyhauser]

Hah they are like gophers... when one gets banned, another gets posted

Seriously....you kids need to learn how to watch long series. I find this to be a very bad trend in viewers these days. Thanks to 20-some episode seasons and all that stuff, you are use to everything happening at once. I've watched a lot of long series (most of them being romatic comedies) and if you think M7 is bad, watch Maison Ikoku. It's virtually 70 episodes of the same thing happening every episode. I find lots of series to be too short these days and too spread out. M7 goes at a good pace. Sure it has low spots but what long series doesn't. Maybe I'm more patient and older. But even when I did watch it all those years ago, I never found it going too slow.

Does a long series have to be boring? My favorite series is Helgensagen Vom Kosmenief (Legend of Galactic Heroes), a massive 110 episode series. There isn't a "low point" in the whole series when it suffers... it paces extremely well, and keeps the watcher continually engaged, while NOT being unrealistically set like a soap opera. Although its really a masterpiece and a standard that every Sci Fi anime series must aspire to.

M7 was okay. I mean the first twenty or so when watched together sequentially like most of people on here do, looks boring. Watching it in Japan as a 14 year old in 1995 I didn't notice it that much, when it kicked into high gear in ep 25, then it really got good. When you watch it in its normal viewing conditions, you don't tend to notice the reused footage or other imperfections that much. You just want to hear the song from last week again, and see stuff explode. Its not the best series, and its far from the worse. Most of the criticism I find isn't that warranted.

[Druna Skass]

Oh god not another one...

[azrael]

Yes another one. Roy closes one in the morning and bam, there's another one in the afternoon. I'm sure it will come to a point where he will close this one.

I think the problem with pace also comes with what the viewer expects from the title. The other macross series moved at a relatively quick pace this one just seemed to plod along in comparison.

And yet another problem. Expectations. Especially with sequels. Everybody wants a sequel that out does the previous and gives them that same feeling...blah blah blah. What was nice about M7 was it didn't follow SDFM's formula or M+'s formula. And then M0 didn't follow any of those either.

Theres alot of Fire Bomber songs out there but they reused the same 3 or 4 throughout..

I'm sure Victor Entertainment was counting the usage of every song...

Sorry for the ranting but I find it to be so annoying when people start complaining about what could have been. It could have been shorter, it could have had less reuse, it could have been this, it could have been that...etc. I can understand the complaints cuz I might have the same but after reading so much of it here and there, it just gets so bloody annoying. Especially 10 years after the fact. Oh well...

Edited August 28, 2005 by azrael

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Yeah but is it true that this wasn't supposed to be made? And that what happened was in order to get the go ahead to do macross plus they had to make a cash cow macross 7, otherwise macross plus wouldn't be allowed to be made? (the creator was held hostage and given no choice)

If true, then why wouldn't it be beneficial to just kill off all the people in macross 7 in a freak accident (except max and milia who managed to escape) the same way they did it to hikaru and co on megaroad? (which probably angered fans)

See the thing is: I liked DYRL PLUS ZERO because it goes back to the roots of why I liked SDF:macross. Even macross II was bearable due to the action, vaks, and music. It didn't have to be that different or ground breaking to succeed in my eyes. That is more like the icing on the cake.

In those series things actually died, got blown up, crushed, shot down, melted, and people got bashed up, had thier faces crushed, heads chopped off, assasinated, riddled with bullets, etc Stuff happened in them and it was dramatic, sometimes gratuitous. (milia was a killing machine with no remorse)

I think turn a gundam, aquarion, and even sdf:macross had some slow bits in them (especially aftter the rain of death but this was artificially lengthened due to popularity) so I don't think number of eps is the only factor because even if it starts slow it can get involving. So it's also what also happens in the show that detertmines bore factor. And if it gets repetitive (same song each ep, same routine) then stretched with filler episodes, that's kind of why it is so different from the others. Plus nothing really happened to basara from ep1 to ep 50. No change at all. He was invincible because he could sing his way out of any danger and dodge anything so there was no feeling of fear or concern because enemies couldn't touch him.

It wasn't artificially lengthened like SDF:macross, but it was filled with stuff that got in the way of the main story which was that there were these beings who originally lived in another dimension, created by accident, (due to experiments the PC were into) and had these powers and they needed to feed off the life force of living things to survive so they created a farm of people to collect spiritua to sustain themselves. (like vamps)

Music was the vehicle to make you watch, macross was the famous name to milk attention from the series that everyone knew, and so macross 7 was created for profit. But it executed the ideas in a boring way. ................................

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......... imo

Edited August 28, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Mr March]

weeeeee

[Duke Togo]

My thoughts are that I have no thoughts of my own conerning Macross 7. I let Agent One speak for me. Agent...

[Keith]

No one forced Nue to make 7, in fact, Kawamori & Nue were forced to make Plus as a Macross Property. Kawamori wanted to make it something independent. By all indications, 7 was 100% a focused effort.

[Roy Focker]

While I disagree with some of the topic starter post. It was well thought out and not childish bash post.

Now a Warning

Anyone who makes a childish bash post after this warning will be banned for 3 days.

[Kanzaki]

oh, another macross 7 thread. Goodies.

This would be a great addition to all the previous ones we had

[JB0]

See the thing is: I liked DYRL PLUS ZERO because it goes back to the roots of why I liked SDF:macross. Even macross II was bearable due to the action, vaks, and music. It didn't have to be that different or ground breaking to succeed in my eyes. That is more like the icing on the cake.

Macross 7 revisited a lot of the same themes as the original show.

It handled them in a diffrent way than the original, but so did Plus, Zero, and DYRL..

In those series things actually died, got blown up, crushed, shot down, melted, and people got bashed up, had thier faces crushed, heads chopped off, assasinated, riddled with bullets, etc Stuff happened in them and it was dramatic, sometimes gratuitous. (milia was a killing machine with no remorse)

Things died and got blown up in Mac7 too.

In all the vivid goriness of the original TV series, no less.

I think turn a gundam, aquarion, and even sdf:macross had some slow bits in them (especially aftter the rain of death but this was artificially lengthened due to popularity)

Actually, it was truncated and then re-extended. It came out at the originally planned length, just with a reworked story arc.

And personally, I thought the post-war segment was part of what made Macross great.

It didn't just close with "and they all lived happily ever after."

They showed the aftermath of the war, with large portions of the Earth turned to a barren wasteland. They showed the zentradi's difficulty adapting to civilian life. They showed humanity's attempts to rebuild it's homeworld and assemble a defensive force to protect the planet.

And yes, they showed Hikaru screwing his relationships up again.

Plus nothing really happened to basara from ep1 to ep 50. No change at all. He was invincible because he could sing his way out of any danger and dodge anything so there was no feeling of fear or concern because enemies couldn't touch him.

THAT actually bothered me. I was hoping for some character development.

...

And that he'd stay dead after they killed him.

Not because I hate him with the burning passion of a thousand suns, but because it would've left more room for other plot threads.

It wasn't artificially lengthened like SDF:macross, but it was filled with stuff that got in the way of the main story which was that there were these beings who originally lived in another dimension, created by accident, (due to experiments the PC were into) and had these powers and they needed to feed off the life force of living things to survive so they created a farm of people to collect spiritua to sustain themselves. (like vamps)

That was one aspect of it.

The whole "power of song" angle was another part. A poorly-developed one, though.

Which really strikes at my persoanl problem with the show. They had several interesting plot elements in place, but very few were developed to a signifigant degree.

[macplus]

Wow! DeathHammer made a really good review, I'm impressed since it's not contaminated with the usual "I love or hate M7" sindrome that most of us suffer, most of you know that my opinion of macross 7 is that it is a total POS but I agree that this guy comments really nailed it, lets see how civilised this tread ends, as for me I won't make a lot of comments since most has already been said, I stick with A1 comments on this.

Edited August 28, 2005 by macplus

[Ido]

I don't remember the space whales as villains in M7...

However its true that the protodeviln aren't scary at all, I mean, even if they are powerful demons that can easely destroy a fleet their look is so silly that you cannot take them seriously. Really.

IMHO

[Noyhauser]

Wow! DeathHammer made a really good review, I'm impressed since it's not contaminated with the usual "I love or hate M7" sindrome that most of us suffer, most of you know that my opinion of macross 7 is that it is a total POS but I agree that this guy comments really nailed it, lets see how civilised this tread ends, as for me I won't make a lot of comments since most has already been said, I stick with A1 comments on this.

323974[/snapback]

I don't think that the problem has been a spread of views. There have been more than plenty people who have written critical yet balanced viewpoints on the series over and over again and get ignored. Really its the people who are most critical about the series just ignore those intelligent points and attack the people who are more supportive of the series in its totality, and then that tends to define the argument when you get to page 8. Most of the intelligent posts are found in the first two pages before the trolls ruin any semblence of intelligence in the converstation.

[Radd]

I do agree with some of what DeathHammer posted, but other things strike me as completely off. My opinion, of course.

To me it seems Macross 7 had some incredibly strong character developement. Not in Nekki Basara, no. If he's the only character you're paying attention to, then of course you'll come away griping that there was little development. Take a look at Mylene, Gamlin, Ray, Max, Millia, Gigil. The "love triangle" of M7 was also more complicated than those of previous Macross shows, and still managed to avoid any of those "Hikaru, you're a moron" antics that sullied SDF.

I had no problem with the music, in fact I think M7 has one of the more enjoyable soundtracks. Fire Bomber certainly isn't a boy band, and it is no affront to my sexuality to hear male vocals. I also enjoy KMFDM, Dire Straits, They Might Be Giants, NiN, Andrew W.K., and many other bands with male vocals. In fact, I've never heard of anyone complain that these bands wouldn't appeal to guys because they lack female vocalists. Of coruse it's already been mentioned that Mylene did plenty of singing herself.

The analogy of M7 and Cop Rock seems stretched. Both had male singers and that's why they failed? That's Hollywood executive logic that always misses the real cause and effect.

I will agree, however, that the show would have benefited greatly had there been more variety in the music. There are ablums and albums of Fire Bomber music, it's a shame that through about half the series only one song was played over and over again whenever Basara jumped into the battlefield.

I wouldn't be surprised if azrael's assumption is correct.

As for the mech designs, while I'm not a fan of the Sound Force mecha, there's plenty of very excellent looking designs in M7 that would make for some wonderful toys. The VF-17, the VF-5000, the VA-3, VF-22, VF-11 Jamming Birds, full armour VF-11, several variations of the VF-19, including the VF-19P wich is my favoruite even over the YF-19.

Seriously, I'd like to see almost any of these over the VF-0.

[Panon]

The analogy of M7 and Cop Rock seems stretched. Both had male singers and that's why they failed? That's Hollywood executive logic that always misses the real cause and effect.

The fallacy of the 'Cop Rock' analogy is quite simple, in that it's silly to try and equate Macross 7 with failure when it was anything but a failure.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

JB0:

I guess I just didn't like the way in which music was a weapon to hurt the badguys as well as a healing thing (waking people up from mind control) as well as non-violent way of defeating things. The tone was changed from the original.

In SDF:macross minmay could sing her lungs out but it wouldn't change kamjin. They adapted to it and became educated enough to be a threat.

She was taken hostage and the only way to get her out was through the use of weapons and physical force. In DYRL they kind of romanticised the true events of the tv series but what was lacking in story it made up for in detailed animation and better battles.

Tv series showed the minmay attack had limits where the movie showed it to be a cure all that could just be applied to anyone. Remember bad guys can fall in love too, but that doesn't mean they won't still want to kill innocent people for revenge. (see macross zero with nora and Ivanov, or Kamjin at the end of sdf: macross for examples)

Whereas mac7 is way too preachy about music solving everything. SDF had more balance. You knew at the end of each episode things would be ok because basara was untouchable. Because of this, and combined with the repetition and length, I thought some opportunities were missed to make the series deep. In sdf macross the soldiers were used to protect people from the harm of the aliens. They at least had a purpose and the civilians were background characters, although important to bringing culture. Even with the peace with the aliens there was threat from people who had not agreed to want peace. (on either side - human and alien, Main character's views about war started to change when they became personally involved)

In macross 7 because of the creatures power, and basara's unique ability to defeat things with music, it eliminates the need to even have a military because they are viewed as incompetant and useless in that situation. The enemies were victims and became good guys, even though they were feared and probably responsbile for the death of a whole race of people in ancient times.

It's because of that, (this mystery of who basara is and how and why he is so special not being explained due to the repetition of each ep, and the fact that we rely ONLY on him until the last ep) there is so little change from start to finish. It's because he is untouchable, that we never at all feel any threat of something serious about to happen to the main character(he can't die because he provides the songs, the reason people should watch the show because it is being used as a vehicle).... that it becomes predictable and hard to take seriously. The beings are supposed to be like really scary for having been a threat to the zentradi weren't they? They could have presented them in a frightening manner.

Given how powerful they are, and that they had to be sealed away forever by the PC, why would the military trust these beings after seeing how capable they are of destroying things? Just doesn't make sense. The characters in SDF:macross(misa's dad) at least saw the threat that a stronger enemy could have if allowed to have its way. What garuantee do the humans have these monsters won't go bad again if the zentradi themselves weren't 100% effected by minmay type attacks?

I guess macross 7 lacked that extra level of depth (music used for everything) because it was structured to be too commercial. I had the same sort of problems with dyrl and macross II though: that music being so damn effecitve that it was hard to believe that this was a "true" event and because of that, I will always fall back to the tv series as the superior version of events.

Whereas in the original the usefulness of the singing had limits, macross 7 allows the music to act as a magic shield which takes us away from the fighting (which can be exciting) and into the personal life of this character who doesn't really progress from one state to another state and has problems communicating even to his fellow band members. If they had explained it better, (showing us how the music generates this spiritua that the protodevlin feed upon and why the pc never thought it up themselves instead of locking them up) I may have liked or apreciated it more, but to me it seems as if the main character himself didn't even know how or why it worked, so like macross Zero's mysterious ending, I'm left disapointed.

Edited August 29, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Roy Focker]

- Characters were hard to relate to/sympathize with. Great characters can save a fairly weak story. A strong story can sometimes overcome fairly weakly written characters...

Well Basara wasn't portrayed as a likable character at first. I like to think the Gamlin's character is suppose to be the audience. Gamlin couldn't stand Basara. I think the audience was suppose share Gamlin's feeling in this matter. Later Gamlin opinion of changed. Some of the audience went along with him. Even so Basara is a character that had little growth. He was the featured character but it others characters who had growth in the story.

- Show diverted from core Macross themes. Namely A) Plausible and consistent love triangle

Basara & Gigle & Sivil or Basara, Mylene or Gamlin. It's up to you if they were plausible.

B) Heavy character development

Are you sure? Don't look at Basara he pretty much stayed the same but look at other character such as Mylene, Gamlin, Sivil and Gigle.

C) well cheorographed mech fights.

Yeah it's a shame.

D) Good music .

Really that's just your opinion.

- Weak antagonists. Star Wars gives you Vader and Boba Fett. LOTR gives you Saruman. Matrix gives you Agent Smith. Strong protagonist characters are only as compelling as their adversaries. Great series have great villians. I'm supposed to be afraid of space whales?

That's a pretty agrument you have there since Space Whale were just the focus of four episodes.

- Mech designs didn't look appealing for toy production...I don't see anyone lining up for M7 toys now.

And yet they made toys that sold.

Expections are very important. We all have them. Previous exposure to other examples of Macross such as DYRL? or Plus can leave one with certain expections. Macross 7 does not meet some of those expections and I believe it was intended to be that way. Those whose expections were violated the most have the hardest time enjoying Macross 7 as they have become so focused on what in it that violates their expections. While it might be hard to see it as Macross for some it really does have that Macross feeling to it. If one can look past their expections they can really enjoy it. Interesting to note that Macross Plus, a western fan favorite of real Macross was as I recall not meant to be Macross at all until Kawamori decided it would be easier to get produced if it was Macross.

[JB0]

Behold my patented mega-quote!

...

What can I say? I find the discussion interesting, and intend to milk it for all it's worth until the thread degenerates and is locked.

JB0:

I guess I just didn't like the way in which music was a weapon to hurt the badguys as well as a healing thing (waking people up from mind control) as well as non-violent way of defeating things. The tone was changed from the original.

I agree they took the concept way too far.

...

And too literally.

But there was a bit more exploration of the concept that, while heavy-handed and overdone, was still interesting.

A more ... subtle treatment of the subject would have been preferred, though. Less focus on sound booster laser cannons, more focus on the emotional impact and such.

...

I grudgingly grant the speaker pods, as it answers the nagging questions of "what happens if they shut their radios off" and "what if you can't find the right frequency?"

In SDF:macross minmay could sing her lungs out but it wouldn't change kamjin. They adapted to it and became educated enough to be a threat.

Mac7's argument would be it was because Minmay wasn't singing from her heart. She was a generic canned pop star, and while she had some impact, it was nowhere near what a "real artist" would have. Same reason that Mac7's Jamming Birds were totally ineffective.

The inescapable irony of this is that Basara, Mylene, and company were an animated figurehead FOR a manufactured band, making them the most artificial group in the history of music.

Back to the topic, though...

This theme BARELY popped up in the original series(Kaifun said something about it right before he left, and Minmay said something about it right before hte credits rolled in the last ep). It's possible it was meant to be explored in more depth had there been a viable opportunity.

You knew at the end of each episode things would be ok because basara was untouchable.

I actually have this problem with MOST TV programming.

They try to inject drama, but it fails because we all know the characters come out all right in the end.

Focker's and Kakizaki's deaths were notable exceptions in SDF Macross, as was Hikaru's hospitalization.

One more reason Basara should have stayed dead.

"Gamlin's wingman" doesn't have quite the same impact as "over-excitable and seemingly-invincible star of the show."

In sdf macross the soldiers were used to protect people from the harm of the aliens.  They at least had a purpose and the civilians were background characters, although important to bringing culture. Even with the peace with the aliens there was threat from people who had not agreed to want peace. (on either side - human and alien, Main character's views about war started to change when they became personally involved)

In macross 7 because of the creatures power, and basara's unique ability to defeat things with music, it eliminates the need to even have a military because they are viewed as incompetant and useless in that situation.

Actually, the military was quite effective until the protodeviln started coming out in person and the fighter pilots were reveealed to be brainwashed humans and zentradi. Between their inability to hurt the ringleaders and their unwillingness to hurt the cannon fodder, that tied their hands signifigantly.

But even afterwards, they were useful in keeping the swarms of fighters from ganging up on Fire Bomber.

Basara's passion only took him so far, and lacking an omidirectional barrier, he would've been toast without the military running interference so he could deal with the bigger fish. I seem to recall Gamlin personally saving Basara's life on more than one occasion.

The enemies were victims and became good guys, even though they were feared and probably responsbile for the death of a whole race of people in ancient times.

And this is part of why I think the entire show disintegrates after Operation Stargazer.

On the other hand, how diffrent is it from Britai and company turning traitor and aiding us in the fight with Bodolza?

...

Well, aside from the whole life-force-regeneration mysticism angle.

But the base concept was similar, albeit (like everything else) hammed up a fair bit more in Mac7.

Humanity's culture, represented through the musicians, showed the enemy another way of life that was preferable to constantly attacking everyone else in the universe.

It's because of that, (this mystery of who basara is and how and why he is so special not being explained due to the repetition of each ep, and the fact that we rely ONLY on him until the last ep) there is so little change from start to finish. It's because he is untouchable, that we never at all feel any threat of something serious about to happen to the main character(he can't die because he provides the songs, the reason people should watch the show because it is being used as a vehicle).... that it becomes predictable and hard to take seriously.

I agree with this.

Part of what hooked me initially was actually the fact that Basara was so utterly insane. I wanted to know the WHY of the character. But it was never dealt with. He just IS.

They showed Mylene grow a fair bit as a musician, but she was sitting in Basara's shadow for the entire series so it was more or less irrelevant because no mater how good she got, she was always just Basara's backup.

Had Basara stayed dead, she would've been forced to grow into a singer of similar caliber, prehaps in the process enlightening us as to what on EARTH is going on in Basara's head.

And I was just ANNOYED at Ray and Veffidas sitting there doing nothing.

"LAUNCH THE SOUND BOOSTERS!"

"Umm, why? Those 2 can't use them anyways, so it doesn't really matter and we may as well save the fuel for something more interesting, like, I dunno, SELF-DEFENSE?"

"COOL POSES RULE! LAUNCH ALREADY!"

"All right, all right... sheesh."

The beings are supposed to be like really scary for having been a threat to the zentradi weren't they? They could have presented them in a frightening manner.

Agreed. They needed to pick a theme and stick with it, if nothing else.

Preferably leaning more towards Sivil and less towards giant bulldogs and feathery loons that think everything is beautiful.

Given how powerful they are, and that they had to be sealed away forever by the PC, why would the military trust these beings after seeing how capable they are of destroying things? Just doesn't make sense.

The characters in SDF:macross(misa's dad) at least saw the threat that a stronger enemy could have if allowed to have its way. What garuantee do the humans have these monsters won't go bad again if the zentradi themselves weren't 100% effected by minmay type attacks?

They didn't have much of a choice, really.

The protodeviln were vastly above anything UN Spacey could throw at them, and their attempts to do so very nearly got the entire universe killed(but it worked out okay, because Basara came back to life and made them LISTEN TO HIS SONG! ).

Not to mention the protodeviln and zentradi had diffrent motivations.

To draw an analogy...

The protodeviln hunted to eat. The zentradi hunted for sport.

In fact, the protodeviln were trying to set up a "spiritia farm" so they could live a peaceful life, just sitting there farming people's souls.

Basara gave them the ability to be self-sufficient.

They no longer had a reason to fight. For the zentradi, fighting WAS the reason.

I guess macross 7 lacked that extra level of depth (music used for everything) because it was structured to be too commercial.

That's actually an interesting point.

It was tailored to a resurgence in super robot popularity, and explicitly constructed to sell both records and toys.

The original series was only selling toys, and as I understand things it was one of the shows SETTING the trend towards more realistic mechs, not a follower explicitly constructed to be like other realistic mech shows. So the marketing angle was far less prevalent.

If they had explained it better, (showing us how the music generates this spiritua that the protodevlin feed upon and why the pc never thought it up themselves instead of locking them up) I may have liked or apreciated it more, but to me it seems as if the main character himself didn't even know how or why it worked, so like macross Zero's mysterious ending, I'm left disapointed.

As I understood Mac7, only the best singers are capable of regenerating spiritia. Seems to have something to do with how much emotion they put into their songs.

Basara was unusually passionate about his art.

It's quite likely that the protoculture's attempts at generating such an "attack force" were done more or less the same way that UN Spacey did*. In other words, they had a squad of totally ineffectual protoculture Jamming Birds.

Extending the hypothetical chain of events, their Basara was likely in the wrong place, and his/her abilities went un-noticed by both the protoculture and the protodeviln. Or got killed early on.

*Speaking of which... it was never really explained how Basara got his VF-19. It's implied it has something to do with Ray, likely through Dr. Chiba, but one has to wonder how a quack scientist and a retired pilot got the authorization to drop a pacifist civilian into the seat of a cutting-edge fighter.

Especially when they didn't even have them for their combat units yet(the Mac7 fleet's first combat VF-19s appear with... Emerald Force, I believe it was, which is created after Diamond Force's decimation).

One more plot point I would've liked to see dealt with.

[Uxi]

Uh... sounded like a pretty good review but then I start to wonder if this guy even watched the series. The whales weren't villains even in the OVA, the poachers were. Dynamite 7 is worth it just to watch Gamlin in his VF-22 IMO.

As far as the protodelvin, I thought the first couple were introduced really well but then they lost their awe/scare effect. When that expeditionary force finds City 7 and we see Sivil just thrash the whole force, jack up Kinryu and then nearly get Gamlin... Same when that tentacle rears up and lets loose its first blast everyone is going WTF.

The problem was the execution after the fact for the big monstrous one (Glavil) and that some of them were just silly or not scary at all (the dual Gorm/Zomd or whatever they were called). Sivil, Guravil, Glavil, Valgo, Gigil, and Geperenich all have good potential.

The regular series starts off slow, but it's supposed to. We're left wondering exactly what is going on. By the time the City 7 arc starts, I couldn't get enough of the series. I was totally on the DYRL-side of Macross at first. My gf at the time was certainly surprised I liked M7 but I did and still do. Animation could have been better with less re-use but that's water under the bridge at this point.

Edited August 29, 2005 by Uxi

[Uxi]

Behold my patented mega-quote!

touche!

...

What can I say? I find the discussion interesting, and intend to milk it for all it's worth until the thread degenerates and is locked.

Likewise!

I have no problem at all with the speaker-pod/sound booster concept. Note that Basara's music wouldn't do squat to Zentraedi or Gamlin or such in any era. What it WAS effective in was in counteracting Protodevlin spirita absorption, mind control, etc. The war against the Zentraedi and the war against the Protodevlin are apples and meatloaf.

One more reason Basara should have stayed dead.

"Gamlin's wingman" doesn't have quite the same impact as "over-excitable and seemingly-invincible star of the show."

Diamond Force is entirely different at the end (under Gamlin) than at the beginning (under Kinryu). Kinryu and Physica are KIA and Dokker and Kinryu were both jacked up by having their mojo drained. I thought that was quite well portrayed. Basara staying dead... would have been interested but would require more adjusment. Maybe Mylene would come out of her dream, Sivil would see how Basara affected Mylene, and then join with Mylene... definitely a possibility and Basara's death could have been portrayed to have a lasting impact.

In macross 7 because of the creatures power, and basara's unique ability to defeat things with music, it eliminates the need to even have a military because they are viewed as incompetant and useless in that situation.

Actually, the military was quite effective until the protodeviln started coming out in person and the fighter pilots were reveealed to be brainwashed humans and zentradi. Between their inability to hurt the ringleaders and their unwillingness to hurt the cannon fodder, that tied their hands signifigantly.

Not really... what we were shown is that the protodevlin were always holding back. Their objective was NEVER to defeat the Macross 7 fleet... if they had, it's fate would have been that of Macross 5. They were trying to bring fear and such in them because it made the spirita absorption more lucrative (though not quite to the Geperenich's Spirita Farm project).

Humanity's culture, represented through the musicians, showed the enemy another way of life that was preferable to constantly attacking everyone else in the universe.

I didn't get that at all. I saw that first Sivil and then Geperenich discover that the ability to reproduce Spirita was within him/her-self and that it didn't need to be a parasite on other beings... That bastard Gavil just seemed to follow Geperenich along.

If they had explained it better, (showing us how the music generates this spiritua that the protodevlin feed upon and why the pc never thought it up themselves instead of locking them up) I may have liked or apreciated it more, but to me it seems as if the main character himself didn't even know how or why it worked, so like macross Zero's mysterious ending, I'm left disapointed.

As I understood Mac7, only the best singers are capable of regenerating spiritia. Seems to have something to do with how much emotion they put into their songs.

We do see that there were several auras in the Jamming Birds but it took Basara what, half the series to get to where he was in the final confrontation with Geperenich. Mylene was almost there as well. The others might not have had their potential but we're moving to conjecture...

*Speaking of which... it was never really explained how Basara got his VF-19. It's implied it has something to do with Ray, likely through Dr. Chiba, but one has to wonder how a quack scientist and a retired pilot got the authorization to drop a pacifist civilian into the seat of a cutting-edge fighter.

Uh... Gamlin certainly was interested and these exact lines early in the series. Chiba was apparently involved but at a minimal level and alot of it appeared to be his own semi-quackery theories until validated by Basara in the course of the conflict. Max Jenius himself was involved at least at some level. Witness the comments Max makes to Ray about Basara's piloting ability... and the various references to Project-M. Plus Max calling Diamond Force off Basara and Basara not being hunted or reprimanded at all by the M7 military.

Emerald Force was a failure on the large scale (even if they were quite effective on a smaller one) and they did not significantly affect Operation Stargazer nor the final conflict with the Protodevlin. Too little, too late.

[azrael]

I will agree, however, that the show would have benefited greatly had there been  more variety in the music. There are ablums and albums of Fire Bomber music, it's a shame that through about half the series only one song was played over and over again whenever Basara jumped into the battlefield.

I wouldn't be surprised if azrael's assumption is correct.

324000[/snapback]

M7 uses tracks from virtually the entire Macross series, including new music. For every song you use, you pay fees to use that song. And in a series like M7, it's hard not to miss all that usage, every week.

[Keith]

Singing skill had nothing to do with generating Anima Spiritia, nor did singing in general. It was purely passion based. If one person put enough genuine passion into something, then they too would be able to generate it. That was the whole point of Minmay's singing being innefectual against Kamujin & Laplamiz, because she wasn't putting any feeling into it. That's what it too k for her to wake up & realize what she'd been doing, leave Kaifun, etc. She went to Hikaru because she thought she could find herself with him. And in the end, leaves telling Hikaru & Misa that she is going to leave & find that very emotion to put into her song.

The reborn Minmay is who we have during the concert & leaving on the Megaroad in Flashback 2012. She's finally found her passion, and is ready to leave her youngerself behind.

As for Basara, he wasn't supposed to have developement, or huge life changing revelations. He had his sh!t together from the very beginning. Knew what he wanted to do, know what he needed to do, and knew he was right in doing so. 7 is about watching everyone else catch up to him. It's a refreshing change to have a fully "with it" protagonist.

[JB0]

I have no problem at all with the speaker-pod/sound booster concept.  Note that Basara's music wouldn't do squat to Zentraedi or Gamlin or such in any era. 

Actually, Chiba's early tests found it sent Gamlin into extreme distress.

Of course, Gamlin had to eventually come to enjoy(or at least tolerate) Basara's music, as otherwise the show would've had heroes disliking heroes, which isn't part of the formula.

One more reason Basara should have stayed dead.

"Gamlin's wingman" doesn't have quite the same impact as "over-excitable and seemingly-invincible star of the show."

Diamond Force is entirely different at the end (under Gamlin) than at the beginning (under Kinryu).  Kinryu and Physica are KIA and Dokker and Kinryu were both jacked up by having their mojo drained.  I thought that was quite well portrayed. 

*shrugs*

Maybe I'm just bloodthirsty. Keep trying to kill main characters off.

In macross 7 because of the creatures power, and basara's unique ability to defeat things with music, it eliminates the need to even have a military because they are viewed as incompetant and useless in that situation.

Actually, the military was quite effective until the protodeviln started coming out in person and the fighter pilots were reveealed to be brainwashed humans and zentradi.  Between their inability to hurt the ringleaders and their unwillingness to hurt the cannon fodder, that tied their hands signifigantly.

Not really...  what we were shown is that the protodevlin were always holding back.  Their objective was NEVER to defeat the Macross 7 fleet... if they had, it's fate would have been that of Macross 5.  They were trying to bring fear and such in them because it made the spirita absorption more lucrative (though not quite to the Geperenich's Spirita Farm project).

They still got very little action in the target-rich, panic-prone civilian environment. The UN Spacey fighters kept them out of the main goal for the most part.

Humanity's culture, represented through the musicians, showed the enemy another way of life that was preferable to constantly attacking everyone else in the universe.

I didn't get that at all.  I saw that first Sivil and then Geperenich discover that the ability to reproduce Spirita was within him/her-self and that it didn't need to be a parasite on other beings...  That bastard Gavil just seemed to follow Geperenich along. 

That's what I mean.

Basara "showed" them how to create spiritia instead of just hunting down others that had it.

It's not directly comparable to the zentradi situation, but there's some parallels if you stretch it enough.

If they had explained it better, (showing us how the music generates this spiritua that the protodevlin feed upon and why the pc never thought it up themselves instead of locking them up) I may have liked or apreciated it more, but to me it seems as if the main character himself didn't even know how or why it worked, so like macross Zero's mysterious ending, I'm left disapointed.

As I understood Mac7, only the best singers are capable of regenerating spiritia. Seems to have something to do with how much emotion they put into their songs.

We do see that there were several auras in the Jamming Birds but it took Basara what, half the series to get to where he was in the final confrontation with Geperenich.  Mylene was almost there as well.  The others might not have had their potential but we're moving to conjecture...

Something like that.

And then right at the end of the final battle, Basara surged up to a high point even by his standards(after nearly blacking out with everyone else during Gepelnitch's hyper-lunch session).

Interesting that everyone hit their peak as death loomed imminent.

Now that I'm thinking about it...

Looked like anyone, properly motivated, could do at least something.

Not Basara at his peak, but certainly Basara at the beginning of the series.

Which actually makes sense, if it's tied to how much emotion you put into it. The death of everything in the universe might be a tad abstract, but the death of humanity should be conceptually close enough to home to bring out some pretty powerful emotions. Particularly given that they aren't that far out from Space War 1.

</rambling>

*Speaking of which... it was never really explained how Basara got his VF-19. It's implied it has something to do with Ray, likely through Dr. Chiba, but one has to wonder how a quack scientist and a retired pilot got the authorization to drop a pacifist civilian into the seat of a cutting-edge fighter.

Uh... Gamlin certainly was interested and these exact lines early in the series.  Chiba was apparently involved but at a minimal level and alot of it appeared to be his own semi-quackery theories until validated by Basara in the course of the conflict. Max Jenius himself was involved at least at some level.  Witness the comments Max makes to Ray about Basara's piloting ability...  and the various references to Project-M.  Plus Max calling Diamond Force off Basara and Basara not being hunted or reprimanded at all by the M7 military.

*nods*

It's just disappointing that they never went into any detail. I'd've LOVED to see that explained.

Especially given the dim view that several of the other high-ranking officers took of the whole thing AFTER the protodeviln proved immune to everything but Basara's singing.

So yeah, I have to agree with Gamlin. The question needs a proper answer.

Emerald Force was a failure on the large scale (even if they were quite effective on a smaller one) and they did not significantly affect Operation Stargazer nor the final conflict with the Protodevlin.  Too little, too late.

True.

But my point was that Basara got his VF-19 before Macross 7's elite combat pilots. And he got a CUSTOMIZED one on top of that.

I would think that Diamond Force's VF-17s would have been upgraded before they started customizing fighters for side projects with no real relevance(at least, not at the beginning of the series).

Or given Basara an older plane, like Mylene's VF-11 and Ray&Veffidas' VF-17(and they got theirs AFTER the project had proven itself of signifigant and immediate military value).

[Panon]

True.

But my point was that Basara got his VF-19 before Macross 7's elite combat pilots. And he got a CUSTOMIZED one on top of that.

I would think that Diamond Force's VF-17s would have been upgraded before they started customizing fighters for side projects with no real relevance(at least, not at the beginning of the series).

Or given Basara an older plane, like Mylene's VF-11 and Ray&Veffidas' VF-17(and they got theirs AFTER the project had proven itself of signifigant and immediate military value).

Macross 7 was operating under peace conditions until the conflict began, so Battle 7's fighter squadrons at the time of the Fire Valkyrie's creation didn't need to be upgraded on a priority basis.

Of course, giving Basara an older plane was the original idea, until it was dropped for various reasons.

Basara was to start in a VF-11, and after it's destruction halfway through the series be upgraded to the VF-19.

Singing skill had nothing to do with generating Anima Spiritia, nor did singing in general. It was purely passion based. If one person put enough genuine passion into something, then they too would be able to generate it. That was the whole point of Minmay's singing being innefectual against Kamujin & Laplamiz, because she

Macross 7 shows no evidence at all that Anima Spiritia is not heavily connected to singing.

The rest is just nothing but retroactively shoehorning Macross 7 themes back into Macross where they had no place. No thanks.

[JB0]

True.

But my point was that Basara got his VF-19 before Macross 7's elite combat pilots. And he got a CUSTOMIZED one on top of that.

I would think that Diamond Force's VF-17s would have been upgraded before they started customizing fighters for side projects with no real relevance(at least, not at the beginning of the series).

Or given Basara an older plane, like Mylene's VF-11 and Ray&Veffidas' VF-17(and they got theirs AFTER the project had proven itself of signifigant and immediate military value).

Macross 7 was operating under peace conditions until the conflict began, so Battle 7's fighter squadrons at the time of the Fire Valkyrie's creation didn't need to be upgraded on a priority basis.

I still say that logically, you upgrade select military vehicles before you go about rigging custom planes for squirrely pseudo-scientific endeavors.

If I'd been running it, Diamond Force would've gotten first dibs on the VF-19s, and Basara would be flying a VF-11. Plenty of those to spare.

Of course, giving Basara an older plane was the original idea, until it was dropped for various reasons.

Basara was to start in a VF-11, and after it's destruction halfway through the series be upgraded to the VF-19.

That's interesting, to say the least.

I wonder why the idea was dropped.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

As for Basara, he wasn't supposed to have developement, or huge life changing revelations. He had his sh!t together from the very beginning. Knew what he wanted to do, know what he needed to do, and knew he was right in doing so. 7 is about watching everyone else catch up to him. It's a refreshing change to have a fully "with it" protagonist.

It can't be possible for him to know everything: He must have been as puzzled about the protodevlin as exedol was, and not know why the music effected them by causing them to fly away. Which is why I point out that not even basara could 100% understand how it works. We the audience won't either. If you are the type who likes to know how and why, then it is unsatisying feeling when you don't get the answers. Like how did shin actually fly up into the air at the end of macross zero?

I do in part believe the 'live performance' having magic effects thing, but just choose not to like it as the answer to all conflict (a cure-all) due to the repetition and because I think it preaches that music is the only solution and that all conflict is bad. And because some people have this power and other's don't, we are left with the idea that basara is a super hero that can't be killed - his fate is the same each episode, so don't bother wondering what's going to happen in the next episode because if he dies there are no songs.

Unlike macross 7, the thing I liked about the original was to me it was very straightforward:

The logic behind why britai defects I think has to do with contamination. After the higher ups realise their soldiers are contaminated they see them as enemies and destroy them to prevent the spread. This to me sounds more logical (if they are going to be cannon fodder may as well join up with the humans to kill thier leader) than the protodevlin just suddenly converting to being good guys because they finally listen to music.

Thier enormous power is still a threat and they could one day lose the "passion" like alice holiday and prove a drain on other people's life force again. The PD would be a security threat like how people see terrorists as a threat and up thier strategy to prevent something like this from happening again. Notice the biased attitude UNG has against the Anti-UN in how they see them being a threat to thier control when they race to get the afos in mac 0? A similar thing should be happening in macross 7. Music alone isn't perfect. Zentradi and humans will still have disagreements and want to fight amoungst themselves even after hearing minmay's music. (see the episode where some zents join kamjin after getting the thirst for combat again which was built into them through years of training and Genetic modification. Totally understandable as this was thier "way of life" for so long, like trying to stop a drug addict to quit overnight. Some chose to stay with humans others chose fighting)

Similarly I see the PD having some disagreements and maybe turning against themselves and against humans for other reasons. Perhaps they look down on us one day and decide to be our rulers? It may have nothing to do with wanting to feed, just that they might hate our guts or find it funny to crush us like a human would crush an insect or a little kid might fry an ant with a magnifying glass, disregarding whether it was moral or not due to thier immense powers. They would not have to answer to anyone because they are god-like in abilities. These beings should be a huge threat to all alien races if they realise how damn powerful they are and decide to take control. What then is Basara going to do if that happens? Sing a song to control them? Wait a minute, they have thier own self sufficiency now, so they must be immune to his "attacks". See what I mean?

In SDF: macross it wasn't just minmay's music, that caused conversion, it was the spies who loved human culture (leisure, food, making love, music etc) and didn't want to go back to thier crap lifestyle because they would miss all this stuff. In DYRL they simplified the events to make it fit into a movie and I find this version less realistic. (and less likable because its harder to swallow)

But in macross 7, music (and the magic) solves everything: healing, waking people up from coma, feeding spiritua into PD, converting milia's rival like 2 minute instant noodles, trapping monsters, etc. I find this is not as superior a way to present the idea as the original macross, which whenever a character sang a song, it did not automatically make them magically stop killing people. (milia had the same level of exposure as the 3 spies, exposed to culture and hearing the music and she didn't convert to the human's side because of the music did she? Her reason was she fell in love, which must have felt alien to her. The pleasure from it converted her. Not music.)

It's not so much I'm against the idea that music can move people and its exposure can make them change thier behaviour, but more that we lose the depth of character that was in sdf macross where we saw that not all people could be suddenly converted through music alone and that some people were just plain evil and could not be helped and therefore physical force may be necessary to solving the problem. The physical weapons were equally valid solutions and valued. Without the SDF1 main gun, or killing key targets, or the use of the grand cannon to wipe out a chunk of zentradi, threats could not be dealt with. There was balance. Macross 7 sort of upset that balance by choosing like DYRL to only focus on music which is very romantic but hard to swallow. A pop song will cure sickness, pacify demons, work as a weapon, transmit feelings of love etc and it was all very forced, not spontaneous. Almost like they needed to put it in like part of a formula and if they strayed from it, something bad might happen.(when there is no music, people might stop watching?)

Basara may have been right about using his power to feed the demons to save the galaxy, but when the enemies are not even evil to begin with, (or scary) it is hard to come up with a reason to watch other than to hear his music. Before that it was about fighting and combat and exciting action and drama, about characters in life or death situations and who had to make tough choices.....as much as it was about music. It had the right balance..

[Agent ONE]

Roy won't have a problem with my feelings on M7 as he has never complained about the following review before and I have posted it a few times:

I HATE Macross7 enough to actually murder someone over it.

My reasons:

1. ENCOURAGING WEAKNESS IN CHILDREN

The trend since we were kids has been one of featuring heroes (if I must call them that) who are just worthless weaklings who promote taking the easy way out, M7 is one of the worst on this issue. Plot-line is unrealistic and peace and dancing while holding hands is ALWAYS the way things end, which is teaching a lesson of fantasy, NOT reality No one is ever confrontational, there is no real problem solving, and everything is a compromise, as much as we would like to believe that is a real reflection on life, it isn't, Nothing in life is a compromise; there are those who take, and those who get ripped off, that's life.

2. TARGETED AT LITTLE KIDS

I have had many arguments with MW members on this point, but it is pretty obvious that M7 wasn't made for us old Macross fans. In fact quite the opposite, most of the older guys around here are enraged by M7. No, M7 was made for a younger generation, it was made to bring a new Macross fans in, but if it did or not, it managed to make me and others like me embarrassed to be Macross fans.

3. STUPID DESIGNS, MACHINES WITH BOOBS AND FACES

The designs are so retarded I could scream. I mean seriously, the teenage girl gets a pink fighter plane with boobs. Some of the other fighters have actual faces. What the fu(k? If this show were called "Fruits in Space" or something, I guess I could handle this, but its called Macross. A show that gets affiliated with DYRL, and the machines with faces and boobs have no place next to a work of art like DYRL.

4. STUPID DESIGNS, CLOTHING, NAMES, AND COLOR CHOICES

They took the bad ass of bad asses.. Max, and they made him wear a dress. So unbelievably lame. They made the main squadron of the show, whose job was to dance and sing in space in a RAINBOW or colors. They named a squadron "Pink Pecker." This one makes me want to just rip M7 fan's teeth out with a rusty pair of pliers. God I swear Kawamori hates old school Macross fans.

5. REDICULOUS ENEMIES

The "bad guys" in this show were just clowns. Totally stupid dialogue, with characters that looked like some kind of cross-dressing costume pride parade winners. I mean there is absolutely nothing to fear about these guys, they are laughable 100% of the time. Combined with their lame appearance and lame dialogue, their mission is to suck song energy from humans. How sinister.

[The White Comet]

The filler episodes in Macross 7 were pretty good actually. As long as the episodes are entertaining they dont always have to add to the story line. Macross 7 is just the right length to me.