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Macross/Animation Cel Collection Thread

baronv

By baronv
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JetJockey Pineapple Eater

JetJockey

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I've come across this seller before on eBay but didn't put it together that many cels were Yahoo Japan auction wins since I'm looking for more specific scenes. By his username I just assumed he was finding cels at Japanese conventions and stores. I was tempted to send him my list but he didn't find anything that I wanted yet.

@ JetJockey: Japanese sellers in Japan generally avoid selling cels to foreigners. They do not like to use ebay. Ebay has not been able to successfully penetrate the JP auction market. The most popular auction site in Japan remains YJP (aka Yahoo Japan). Some sellers will specifically state they do not sell to foreigners and others will even go as far as cancelling bids by deputy services (which bid on behalf of foreigners).

Personally, I'm not crazy about eBay. But that's where most look to buy and sell stuff. Why is Yahoo Japan more popular than eBay?

I've seen the no foreign bidders on many Yahoo Japan auctions. I just assumed it was not to deal with potential International problems. But I've purchased a few anime things from Japanese sellers on eBay. No problems so far.

I can understand not wanting the hassle of doing business transactions with overseas (language, currency, customs etc), but what's wrong with deputy services? Is it more of a "keep these jewels in Japan" kind of thing?

I wonder about that too. Yet Anime Link sells tons of cels I assume in the United States. Many high quality.

Fortress_Maximus New Edwards Test Pilot

Fortress_Maximus

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I can understand not wanting the hassle of doing business transactions with overseas (language, currency, customs etc), but what's wrong with deputy services? Is it more of a "keep these jewels in Japan" kind of thing?

There's nothing wrong with deputy services per se if your goal is to maximize profits. This is the business model practiced by some 'popular' online cel dealers. However some YJP cel sellers simply prefer selling within Japan. Over the years I've interviewed many dealers and sellers and their perspectives vary greatly. Some YJP sellers seek maximium profits; these sellers are open to international buyers. While other YJP sellers simply refuse to sell internationally. Some cite keeping prized cels within JP. And others still feel dealing with international buyers remains too complex factoring in the payment and language as primary concerns.

These varying concerns have been analyzed to death by cel communities and three facts become clear. First, even if cels are sold strictly to JP buyers, the cels disappear into blackhole collections. This is unfortunate and online cel collecting communities seek to prevent this by promoting displaying collections. Even one cel is enough to create an online gallery; so if you have a cel, you can easily create your free gallery on rubberslug.com. Unfortunately, displaying collections online is most widely practiced by English language collectors and not Japanese collectors. Secondly, during the last 30 years the cel collecting landscape has changed dramatically. Primarily because the actual creation of production cels has completely ceased. And, the available secondary market inventory continues to decrease with each passing year, replenished mainly by individual collectors finally selling. It is important to remember, there is no new inventory for 30-40 year old production cels. This is why the inventory for most cel dealers does not change. Third, the buyer demand on the secondary market also continues to decrease. This is evident when examining the demand trends for 'popular' series during the last 30 years. With the exception of a few classic series, general cel value and demand has actually, decreased. Lastly it is important to remember, cels are not affordable for the average anime fan or collector especially when compared to mass produced items.

tepidarium ARMD Deck Swabber

tepidarium

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Posted (edited)

There's nothing wrong with deputy services per se if your goal is to maximize profits. This is the business model practiced by some 'popular' online cel dealers. However some YJP cel sellers simply prefer selling within Japan. Over the years I've interviewed many dealers and sellers and their perspectives vary greatly. Some YJP sellers seek maximium profits; these sellers are open to international buyers. While other YJP sellers simply refuse to sell internationally. Some cite keeping prized cels within JP. And others still feel dealing with international buyers remains too complex factoring in the payment and language as primary concerns.

These varying concerns have been analyzed to death by cel communities and three facts become clear. First, even if cels are sold strictly to JP buyers, the cels disappear into blackhole collections. This is unfortunate and online cel collecting communities seek to prevent this by promoting displaying collections. Even one cel is enough to create an online gallery; so if you have a cel, you can easily create your free gallery on rubberslug.com. Unfortunately, displaying collections online is most widely practiced by English language collectors and not Japanese collectors. Secondly, during the last 30 years the cel collecting landscape has changed dramatically. Primarily because the actual creation of production cels has completely ceased. And, the available secondary market inventory continues to decrease with each passing year, replenished mainly by individual collectors finally selling. It is important to remember, there is no new inventory for 30-40 year old production cels. This is why the inventory for most cel dealers does not change. Third, the buyer demand on the secondary market also continues to decrease. This is evident when examining the demand trends for 'popular' series during the last 30 years. With the exception of a few classic series, general cel value and demand has actually, decreased. Lastly it is important to remember, cels are not affordable for the average anime fan or collector especially when compared to mass produced items.

I think you're spot on with your analysis. This is writing I'd expect to find in the Wall Street Journal :) Cels from some series have always been relatively inexpensive (think American shows like He-Man) because of the plethora of quantity on the market.

I also agree that, in general, we see buyer demand decreasing for all cels, as the younger generations are not familiar with the shows and so the interest is not there. Unfortunately, as you indicate, there are notable exceptions to this phenomenon, namely, very popular shows that still have a cult following. A subset of folks who are now adults from the 80's (earlier?) who have the economic means to drive prices up for important examples of works from these series are keeping the market for these pieces high. Case in point - quality Macross cels are limited in quantity, for reasons you identify in your above post, and, by observation, they are now *more* expensive then they were in the 90's or early 00's as dealer quantity has dried up and private collectors (attempt to) cannibalize eachother's collections.

With that said, I'm looking for great images of Misa Hayase from SDF Macross TV. PM me if you've got any. :)

Edited by tepidarium
JetJockey Pineapple Eater

JetJockey

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I've seen a few recent Misa TV cels and sketches in Yahoo Japan auctions.

Where are the cel collection forums and galleries other than MacrossWorld and Rubberslug? I haven't seen any others.

I still believe that companies or other warehouses might have cels and sketches in storage. I find it hard to believe that all cels were either destroyed or reused. There is a company in California that told me that they didn't know what cels they had in storage. Also I've come across dealers with boxes of cels that were unorganized and unknown. There were many recent Ghost in the Shell movie cels up on Yahoo Japan. I'm not sure if they were from an individual collection or dealer. But the amount and high quality makes me think they were held over as investments that are paying off with all that I've seen selling over $1000.

Edited by JetJockey
tepidarium ARMD Deck Swabber

tepidarium

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A lot of the recent Misa TV cels haven't been great quality.

Rubberslug is the largest cel gallery website online - but you have to wonder how it will hold up as far as the modern web goes. The site is not responsive, e.g. not a mobile first website and the search doesn't fully work. The creator has been very kind to donate his programming, time and server space,and I hope it continues to survive.

Ah...to think about troves of undiscovered cels from our favorite cartoons! Show me one cel of "Visionaries" - an early 80's cartoon. I've never seen one. This was made by Sunbow, the same company that animated G.I.Joe.

Jasonc Galactic Diva

Jasonc

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Were there any other premium cels that were available that were on display? They don't seem to update the site as much anymore. I think last year they only updated a few times. Seems like it will be the same this year. Halfway in the year and only one update.

When I was there, he had a really nice Myun that wasn't on the list. I thought about getting it, but I have quite a number of character cels, and not many mecha ones. It was a hard choice though, as it also came with a background.

jvmacross Hory Froating Head

jvmacross

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Anyone take the plunge on this one off ebay? I don't see it listed anymore.

I couldn't justify the expense at the moment...but it was worth every penny....

$_1.JPG

Edited by jvmacross
JetJockey Pineapple Eater

JetJockey

Posted
Posted (edited)

When I was there, he had a really nice Myun that wasn't on the list. I thought about getting it, but I have quite a number of character cels, and not many mecha ones. It was a hard choice though, as it also came with a background.

Nothing else major from Macross, Southern Cross, or Mospeada?

Anyone take the plunge on this one off ebay? I don't see it listed anymore.

I couldn't justify the expense at the moment...but it was worth every penny....

$_1.JPG

Not me. I thought about posting that one but figured either people knew or the reserve / starting price was too much. I only look for original Macross TV, DYRL, or Flashback cels myself. If it sold it will probably show up on the sold eBay listings in the next day or so.

Edited by JetJockey
jvmacross Hory Froating Head

jvmacross

Posted
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Not me. I thought about posting that one but figured either people knew or the reserve / starting price was too much. I only look for original Macross TV, DYRL, or Flashback cels myself. If it sold it will probably show up on the sold eBay listings in the next day or so.

Seller opted to hold onto it than lowering it anymore....it's a great cel with a great story behind it...

Mokman Sharon Apple Concert Attendee

Mokman

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I had made him an offer when it was listed the very first time, but he chose to relist it to try and get more. The story behind it is indeed cool, but in my opinion, doesn't add much to the value of the cel. Oh well...

Edited by Mokman
Mokman Sharon Apple Concert Attendee

Mokman

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Exactly. I offered him what I thought the cel was worth on its own merrits, but since I can only buy the cel, and not the experience he had acquiring it, I wasn't willing to pay a premium.

jvmacross Hory Froating Head

jvmacross

Posted
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"...but since I can only buy the cel, and not the experience he had acquiring it, I wasn't willing to pay a premium"...

Well put....

I wonder if a cel like that, with accompanying signatures, would command more value (interest) in Japan? I'm thinking it would do well on a venue like a Mandarake auction.

jvmacross Hory Froating Head

jvmacross

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http://page11.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/n146708697

I think you'll see these on ebay for double the price pretty soon based on the high bidder...

OK...so maybe triple the price!!! ;)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MACROSS-MOVIE-ROBOTECH-HIKARU-ICHIJYO-RICK-HUNTER-ANIME-PRODUCTION-CEL-/400971730021?hash=item5d5bc70c65

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MACROSS-PLUS-ISAMU-ALVA-DYSON-ROBOTECH-ANIME-PRODUCTION-CEL-/400971732085?hash=item5d5bc71475

Any takers? :rolleyes:

Mokman Sharon Apple Concert Attendee

Mokman

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Seems to me he replied with a counter offer the one time I tried to get one of his cels, but that was some time ago. Oh well, his prerogative. If he is trying to do this as a business for profilt I doubt he will have much success and will eventually have to give it up (or change his ways).

Mokman Sharon Apple Concert Attendee

Mokman

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Well I just took a look through his recently sold items on Ebay and he might not be completely out of his mind. He has sold 239 items in recent months. I did notice though that probably 90% of them went for either an accepted best offer or had a price reduction on them (20-25%). Only a very few were buy it now at the original price. He rightly accesses that Macross is one of the higher draw shows, but we all seem to agree that his estimation of that is quite inflated.

Fortress_Maximus New Edwards Test Pilot

Fortress_Maximus

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Yes this gouger is banking on the fact Macross cel collectors will pay to obtain cels. The key problems for him is his business is unsustainable and can't scale. He doesn't have industry connections or any network to suppliers. He is merely buying from sources most Macross cel collectors already access.

tepidarium ARMD Deck Swabber

tepidarium

Posted
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Yes this gouger is banking on the fact Macross cel collectors will pay to obtain cels. The key problems for him is his business is unsustainable and can't scale. He doesn't have industry connections or any network to suppliers. He is merely buying from sources most Macross cel collectors already access.

But, you may be proceeding from a false assumption. The instability of his operation as a sustainable and scaleable business may not be a factor. This could just be another sort of speculation, a hobby, perhaps. If he hits a jackpot, so be it. Otherwise, he'll at least break-even - although it may take some time. Half-way decent Macross cels on eBay usually do go for more than their YJ counteparts...

Mokman Sharon Apple Concert Attendee

Mokman

Posted
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Perhaps a little bit off topic, but still original artwork and related to Robotech. This is the original drawing for the REF Battlepod in the new REF Marines source book by Palladium for their Robotech RPG. I picked this up from the artist himself last week at Gen Con. There has been a lot of for and against discussions on the new mecha designs in the book, but I must say, either way the actual artwork is quite impressive in person.

mbrviejftz_o.jpg

JetJockey Pineapple Eater

JetJockey

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The seller also might be betting on not everyone knowing how to use Yahoo Japan or services that will bid for people who don't live in Japan. I know I didn't check Yahoo Japan seriously till fairly recently.

tepidarium ARMD Deck Swabber

tepidarium

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The seller also might be betting on not everyone knowing how to use Yahoo Japan or services that will bid for people who don't live in Japan. I know I didn't check Yahoo Japan seriously till fairly recently.

This. I think there are many american buyers who are not aware of YJP or the ease (and expense) of using deputies.

Mokman Sharon Apple Concert Attendee

Mokman

Posted
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It might very well be true that many American cel buyers are not aware of YJ auctions, but I would think most of the cel collectors who would actually pay for a cel the kind of money he is asking, certainly the Macross cels, are indeed already aware of YJ. It seems he is counting on the uninformed Ebay buyer to shell out a chunk of change for artwork they don't really know the market for. Seeing that all but a few of his Macross cels are still there waiting to be sold, I would say we Macross collectors are indeed smarter than he gives us credit for, lol.

tepidarium ARMD Deck Swabber

tepidarium

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Most of the times...but they also have nicer examples more often.... This one went kinda low.... maybe our friendly ebay cel dealer nabbed it! ;)

http://ekizo.mandarake.co.jp/auction/item/itemInfoEn.html?index=312712

Sometimes, they do, but sometimes not. I tend to think Mandy auctions go higher partially due to Mandarake being a "trusted" vendor, but that's only conjecture.

As for the example you pointed out, yeah. It'll probably hit ebay this week :)

Mokman Sharon Apple Concert Attendee

Mokman

Posted
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Not a bad price on that cel, though there is considerable paint loss so the price doesn't surprise me much. It is a little high for what I would have paid considering the damage. I have bought from Mandrake occasionally, but I haven't really noticed any trend in the prices that cels go for. I haven't interacted much with Mandarake recently but I find their new layout confusing. I can never tell what is going on with the "Everyday Auction", "Live Auction", and "Big Web Auction". At least I never seem to find BWA items when they are actually running. All I find are listing that have already finished.

tepidarium ARMD Deck Swabber

tepidarium

Posted
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Yes. Their new layout was initially confusing and there still can be confusion with BWA as opposed to normal. If you navigate to auction - Anime Cels >All and then the default "before/open" is selected, you'll see current auctions, which will include any BWA related cels. Also, with BWA, sometimes it's just a matter of noticing that the prices are super high so it's obviously BWA.

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