Macross/Animation Cel Collection Thread

[jvmacross]

2 hours ago, MacrossManiac said:

I think there may be some foul play with Rinkya. I bid 6 days before the auction ending a very high price on some cels that previously sold. They weren't worth but a few hundred dollars. They ended up selling for 1-1.5k I think that Rinkya knew the amounts and had some type of internal bidding to jack the price up somehow to earn higher commissions/fees. Thoughts?

Nothing new....Rinkya is just the perfect place where stupidity is given an unbridled platform for some of their customer's lack of better judgement

[Fortress_Maximus]

 

52 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

Nothing new....Rinkya is just the perfect place where stupidity is given an unbridled platform for some of their customer's lack of better judgement

Hilariously accurate.

@ MacrossManiac There is no way of knowing for certain if Rinkya had artificial internal bidding.  Since you are new here, mind telling us more about your experiences using deputy services?  How many times have you used Rinkya (successfully and unsuccessfully)?  Also, why are you using them?  There are affordable alternatives available if you do more research.

[Mokman]

Do we know for a fact that the winning bids on the cels in question were Rinkya bids?  Do we know that the competing bidders who took the auctions to the high final prices were all Rinkya bidders?  It would be very hard to say if something strange is going on with Rinkya unless we are certain that the answer to both questions is yes.  I have never had any problems myself when using Rinkya.

[jvmacross]

They were definitely proxy bids...

The way the auction went down was very similar to how they do when Rinkya bidders are involved, due to their bidding rules between Rinkya bidders. 

Unfortunately, this time around we didn't get a Rinkya bidder to come on here and admit they were over-bidding on a cel without knowing what they were bidding on. 

[Mokman]

How do you know they were proxy bidders?

[tepidarium]

While anything is possible, it would be, obviously, very unethical for Rinkya to do anything like this. I think it is much more probable that if it was internal bidding, there simply were Rinkya end-users doing the actual bidding. 

[elrdf]

What are better bidding websites like proxy there is I think white rabbit or something like that. For example a cel that was worth $300.00 no more than that I bid $1,300.00 on and the bid went to $1,290.00 just  A LITTLE SKETCHY eh? I was bidding on Rinkya and I placed the bid 6 days before the auction ended. Something FISHY is going on and it ain't sushi. This has happened in the past. When I wait for the last min to bid and bid in lower increments it will sell for MUCH less even a better cel. I think they are looking for higher pre-bids and then when it comes time towards the end they bid or have others bid to meet the high price. For example if there is a book that is only worth about 100 yen and I bid 500,000 yen days before the auction ends somehow someone will bid up to 499,000 yen... Something deff not kosher going on.

[Mokman]

MacrossManiac, make sure you understand the difference between the high bid on YJ and the high bid on Rinkya.  They are not always the same thing.  When two or more Rinkya users are bidding, Rinkya keeps track of their individual high bids.  However they only bid enough on YJ to outbid the highest non-Rinkya bidder.  If another Rinkya user comes in and bids higher, the high bid on YJ doesn't change.  Rinkya just changes internally which of their users is the owner of that high bid on YJ.  It sounds to me like that is what has happened to you.  You were outbid by another Rinkya user and didn't realize it.

[Fortress_Maximus]

Exactly.  Odds are you were outbid by another internal Rinkya user.   Sounds like you are very new to buying so you really need to understand how deputy services like Rinkya operate.  Sure you can stay until the very end and keep on bidding but honestly you are just wasting your time because odds are you have a budget.  So in my experience, place one bid which is the highest you can afford and let the chips fall where they may. 

[elrdf]

58 minutes ago, Mokman said:

MacrossManiac, make sure you understand the difference between the high bid on YJ and the high bid on Rinkya.  They are not always the same thing.  When two or more Rinkya users are bidding, Rinkya keeps track of their individual high bids.  However they only bid enough on YJ to outbid the highest non-Rinkya bidder.  If another Rinkya user comes in and bids higher, the high bid on YJ doesn't change.  Rinkya just changes internally which of their users is the owner of that high bid on YJ.  It sounds to me like that is what has happened to you.  You were outbid by another Rinkya user and didn't realize it.

That is exactly what I was thinking. However, when I saw the ending price on YJ it was the same as Rinkay...

[Fortress_Maximus]

The two prices can be the same.

[elrdf]

3 minutes ago, Fortress_Maximus said:

The two prices can be the same.

So for example. Lets say a DBZ cel is worth no more than $100.00. I happen to REALLY like it and just for the hell of it I place a bit a few days before the auction ends for $1,500.00. When the auction ends it sells for $1,500.00 the end price is the same on Rinkya and YJ. You don't think that Rinkya has someone bid to raise the price to get higher fees or money for the seller somehow? Because Rinkya saw my ridiculously high bid.. I feel something odd is going on here though. I have seen some junk-mediocre Macross cels sell for a VERY high price MUCH more than what they are worth on Rinkya and Mandaraki. For example a simple Hikaru cel on ebay asking for $300.00 would probably sell for like $800.00 on Rinkya/Mandarake.. It doesn't make sense.. I don't think someone would overpay so high like that for nothing when they can purchase some cels on ebay much cheaper.. Thoughts? Thanks

[jvmacross]

5 hours ago, Mokman said:

How do you know they were proxy bidders?

Bidder / Ratings	Price	Quantity	Bid time
g*6*p*** / 27919   High bidder	134,000 yen	1	2019-05-06 13:31
0*r*e*** / 52354	133,000 yen	1	2019-05-13 00:00

You think non-proxy bidding accounts have ratings of 27,919 and 52,354???

Only Rinkya has bidder accounts that high.

 

 

[Mokman]

To be sure prices for Macross cels are up on Ebay as well.  No one is getting any there for cheap.  And how exactly do you suggest Rinkya is supposedly manipulating the market, as you say for higher fees for themselves and higher prices for the sellers?  People bid what they want for a cel, when they want.  When the bidding gets too rich for them they drop out.  Surely you don't think Rinkya is having someone bid up to the $1500 that they know is your maximum in hopes that you would bid more and thereby generate a higher fee for them?  What inducement could they possibly give someone to bid up to, by your own admission, such a ridiculously high price for a cel not worth that much?  Since the final price on YJ was $1500 and you did not win it, means someone in fact wanted to bid more than the "ridiculously high" price you bid.

So to answer your question, I don't think anything out of sorts is going on with Rinkya.  It seems to me there simply is a flush of new collectors in the market that are more willing to spend more of their disposable income than those from the established market.  The cels are worth these high prices to them and they are willing to go that far to acquire them.  It doesn't have to make sense to those of us who wouldn't spend that much ourselves, it is for each to determine what something is worth to them alone.  You claim the cel in your example was only worth $100, but you bid $1500 for it.  Seems to me your were actually saying it was worth $1500 to you.  It just happens someone else thought it was worth more.

[Mokman]

25 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

Bidder / Ratings	Price	Quantity	Bid time
g*6*p*** / 27919   High bidder	134,000 yen	1	2019-05-06 13:31
0*r*e*** / 52354	133,000 yen	1	2019-05-13 00:00

You think non-proxy bidding accounts have ratings of 27,919 and 52,354???

Only Rinkya has bidder accounts that high.

 

 

Fair enough.  I was just curious how you came to your conclusion.  I would agree an account with that much feedback most likely is a deputy.

[JetJockey]

On 5/15/2019 at 7:47 PM, elrdf said:

Just found this awesome video, behind the scenes at the production studio making of Macross DYRL!!! at around 15 min you see the studio and them drawing. The first part is minmei singing songs live its a really cool video!!

 

 

 

I can't remember seeing this video before. Or perhaps I didn't watch the whole thing. Thanks. Another case of not everyone knowing what's out there.

 

13 hours ago, MacrossManiac said:

I think there may be some foul play with Rinkya. I bid 6 days before the auction ending a very high price on some cels that previously sold. They weren't worth but a few hundred dollars. They ended up selling for 1-1.5k I think that Rinkya knew the amounts and had some type of internal bidding to jack the price up somehow to earn higher commissions/fees. Thoughts?

 

I guess I missed it yet again. Do you have links to the cels that you are talking about? Or do you want to mention the series if it's not Macross?

And what do you mean you bid a high price on cels that previously sold?

 

It's always possible that there are what are called shill bidders out there. People who bid not to own but just to raise the final price because they know the seller. But that is illegal and I'm sure if Rinkya noted your max bid and had someone at Rinkya or not bid up to your max and stop and they do this sort of thing a lot they would get caught. As enough Rinkya users would notice something like that. Besides, Rinkya would have to know the sellers to really benefit since at the amounts you are talking about Rinkya has a flat fee percentage and a discount over $1000 according to their fee page.

https://www.rinkya.com/en/page/fees

So if they don't know the seller they wouldn't see much of that extra money anyway.

Edited May 20, 2019 by JetJockey

[jvmacross]

Some interesting Macross stuff on YJA...let's see where some of these end up

[Mokman]

Indeed.  I am interested in a couple of them, but with the way things have been going I might have to pass on them.

[jvmacross]

1 hour ago, Mokman said:

Indeed.  I am interested in a couple of them, but with the way things have been going I might have to pass on them.

Let the most reasonable bid...lose! 

[JetJockey]

Let's try to be a bit more open. I'm going to try for this Max TV cel.

https://www.rinkya.com/en/auction-r325334772

 

It's one of the better TV cels that I've seen. Easily in the top 10 or maybe 5. I'm not sure of what it should go for. But it should be interesting to watch how people bid. I'll post it in the toys section too. Perhaps more people will come over here.

 

I guess I should have picked up this Minmay cel on the right when it was by itself years ago. I remember posting about it a few times here. I don't think it was more than $500 back then.

https://www.rinkya.com/en/auction-p684884773

 

These are way out of my range. But someone has bid on the group. I wonder why they aren't just using the buyout option since there is barely a difference in price?

 

A lot of other high priced Macross cels and some low starting priced sketches. I might see if I can win a sketch but those posted sketches from a few posts above were going for a lot too. Besides with Comic Con and other anime conventions coming up, I'll need to plan for possible statues and figures.

Edited May 21, 2019 by JetJockey

[jvmacross]

On 5/20/2019 at 10:01 PM, JetJockey said:

Let's try to be a bit more open. I'm going to try for this Max TV cel.

https://www.rinkya.com/en/auction-r325334772

 

 

I'm guessing it will go above $1000 USD

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by jvmacross

[Mokman]

I suspect it will go for more than $1k as well.  I would bid on it but that would be too rich for me.  With the inflated prices cels have been generating there appears to be a bit of glut of artwork available at the moment, more currently on YJ than I remember for a long time.  Maybe the supply and demand pendulum will start to swing prices in the other direction.

[JetJockey]

The thing I hate most is the auto extend thing. But there seems to be a definite no go maximum right now as there are some $2000 and more priced Macross cels that aren't getting bids. I think a few with buy out options. We'll see what happens on that Minmay tomorrow. That one bid is odd to me. Still I haven't seen enough good Macross cels with backgrounds to really know. A good cel and background from Bubblegum Crisis OVA Episode 5 went for close to $1500 if I remember correctly. I posted it in one of the Bubblegum Crisis topics. And as much as I like Macross, I think that Bubblegum Crisis cel price is reasonable since it's a one of a kind final shot with the full team. There should be more of this Max cel so I just can't see it getting close to $1500. But then some of those Mandarake cels got in the $2000 range.

There are some nice group sketches in one Misa cel auction. I wish the seller would separate some of them. The TV and movie sketches. Having them in a group will make it more expensive though. Perhaps the winner can sell the ones they don't want on ebay.

[jvmacross]

10 hours ago, JetJockey said:

There are some nice group sketches in one Misa cel auction. I wish the seller would separate some of them. The TV and movie sketches. Having them in a group will make it more expensive though. Perhaps the winner can sell the ones they don't want on ebay.

In my experience, "lots" of anything are usually beneficial to the buyer.

As a seller, you want to avoid these type of sales if maximizing your earnings are your top concern.

[treker14]

I would love in of these cels but there's no way I could afford that them. 

[Fortress_Maximus]

Generally collectors and buyers alike in the cel community disapprove of sellers separating sketches from cels and especially, separating sketches in a set/sequence.  Just because it might benefit you does not mean the seller and/or the future owner should bother to separate anything.  If you want to own rare art being auctioned, take some advice from a seasoned collector, bid your maximum, if you hope to have a snowball chance of winning. Otherwise you will be one of the masses lamenting how they could have won, if only....

[ZenAmako]

I got into cel collecting 20 years ago, but I eventually got out and sold all of my cels.  I'm kicking myself now because I had some awesome Macross cels that I probably wouldn't be able to afford now.  I had a key end close-up portrait of Minmay from FB2012 and a really nice profile of her as well from the first few minutes of FB2012.   The close-up was around $800 and the profile cost me $350 back in the day.  Now I see "okay" Macross cels going for over $1K.  There's a profile of Minmay singing from DYRL on YJ now that I'd love to have, but I'm expecting the price to skyrocket before all is said and done. 

Since I got back into collecting, I've had to settle for cels from Iczer-1, Vampire Princess Miyu, Shamanic Princess, Bubblegum Crisis, Leda, and You're Under Arrest.  I've acquired all of the cels I have now from retired collectors, and they are all very nice.  However, the nice cels from Macross (and Gunbuster) seem a bit out of reach now.  When they do pop up, either the starting price is very high or a bidding war ensues.  There was a cel of Noriko from Gunbuster ep. 5 on YJ recently that really wasn't a great shot of her, and it ended up going for close to $1K.

eBay seems to have the same junk cels being relisted over and over again at inflated prices.

I think it's better to get to know other collectors in the cels community than to try to deal with YJ/eBay these days.  You can usually get a better deal from a private collector who is looking to downsize than you would get from a dealer or (especially) YJ/eBay.  However, it seems like Macross and Gunbuster collectors by and large are holding on to their cels!

[Legioss]

On 2/27/2019 at 9:42 AM, treker14 said:

I know they’re not Macross cels but I thought I’d also add my Mospeada & Robotech II: The Sentinels cels.

 

I don't know if this is the person who I sold it to, sorry I don't check this board all the time, but here's a high resolution scan of the Bowie, Dana, and Miriya setup. The 3 cels are from the same scene, but don’t go together. It looks they just found 3 that matched the most.

This was one of my first cels I bought from a mail order service called Macross Exchange in 1995 or 1996. Alex Hwang was in Los Angeles around the time of Robocon 10 (1995), so I would think he would have had to have gotten it from Harmony Gold’s office and/or Carl Macek, maybe Macek’s cel gallery.

 

macross_exchange2.doc macross_exchange.doc

These were saved 24 years ago in MS-DOS, so Word will probably want to convert them.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Legioss
Macross Exchange catalog

[jvmacross]

Not much movement on any of the Macross listings on YJA all week......The calm before the storm.....

[JetJockey]

2 hours ago, Legioss said:

I don't know if this is the person who I sold it to, sorry I don't check this board all the time, but here's a high resolution scan of the Bowie, Dana, and Miriya setup. The 3 cels are from the same scene, but don’t go together. It looks they just found 3 that matched the most.

This was one of my first cels I bought from a mail order service called Macross Exchange in 1995 or 1996. Alex Hwang was in Los Angeles around the time of Robocon 10 (1995), so I would think he would have had to have gotten it from Harmony Gold’s office and/or Carl Macek, maybe Macek’s cel gallery.

 

macross_exchange2.doc 12.41 kB · 2 downloads macross_exchange.doc 11.78 kB · 2 downloads

These were saved 24 years ago in MS-DOS, so Word will probably want to convert them.

Do you have any other old catalogs from back then? Like Nikaku Animart or US Renditions that you can scan and post? Also I'm curious about the quality of Macek’s cel gallery, did you ever see anything from his collection? If he had cels with backgrounds from Southern Cross and Mospeada?

 

1 hour ago, jvmacross said:

Not much movement on any of the Macross listings on YJA all week......The calm before the storm.....

Well it's not like sniping does any good on Yahoo Japan. These won't have a true ending time with the 5 minute extended time for people that are curious about the maximum bid. It will be night time when these end. I guess everyone will be home and ready to go.

[jvmacross]

1 hour ago, JetJockey said:

It will be night time when these end. I guess everyone will be home and ready to go.

Actually, I feel late night Japan ending times are actually more of an advantage for US bidders.  

Imagine if all these ended at times similar to the average PO night!  Most of these cel auctions end when I am getting ready for work in the morning.

[JetJockey]

Well that got out of hand fast.

https://www.rinkya.com/en/auction-q290978949

I guess they've started on this one and it's going to get really high in the coming hours.

I believe this is because of those sketches. If I'm right the Misa TV cels are from that final episode scene with Hikaru and Minmay. I remember not to long ago seeing another cel in this sequence but with Hikaru and Minmay plus the background. I'm pretty sure that didn't even break $1000.

So much for me trying to sneak a win out of this auction though.

Edited May 26, 2019 by JetJockey

[treker14]

13 hours ago, Legioss said:

I don't know if this is the person who I sold it to, sorry I don't check this board all the time, but here's a high resolution scan of the Bowie, Dana, and Miriya setup. The 3 cels are from the same scene, but don’t go together. It looks they just found 3 that matched the most.

This was one of my first cels I bought from a mail order service called Macross Exchange in 1995 or 1996. Alex Hwang was in Los Angeles around the time of Robocon 10 (1995), so I would think he would have had to have gotten it from Harmony Gold’s office and/or Carl Macek, maybe Macek’s cel gallery.

 

macross_exchange2.doc 12.41 kB · 3 downloads macross_exchange.doc 11.78 kB · 3 downloads

These were saved 24 years ago in MS-DOS, so Word will probably want to convert them.

I got this through a trade about 2017 with a member of rubberslug. 

[jvmacross]

5 hours ago, JetJockey said:

Well that got out of hand fast.

https://www.rinkya.com/en/auction-q290978949

 

Sold auction price....201,000 JPY

Bought by a proxy bidder....

Bidder / Ratings	Price	Quantity	Bid time
g*6*p*** / 27964   High bidder	201,000 yen	1	2019-05-26 20:58
v*o*R*** / 445	200,000 yen	1	2019-05-26 13:54
o*o*r*** / 1329	20,700 yen	1	2019-05-26 00:32
R*b*v*** / 572	18,000 yen	1	2019-05-25 22:34
9*A*T*** / 273	10,000 yen	1	2019-05-23 22:07
6*d*8*** / 20	1,980 yen	1	2019-05-21 15:07

 

Like I said before....as a seller, never sell your items as a lot...

This was actually a resellers dream auction....if you break it down to the sellable pieces,  you could make a good profit from breaking up this lot....the Misa cels alone would easily sell for 200 usd each, but probably closer to 300+ usd...

I wouldn't be surprised if some of these show up on ebay....

I thought the dougas and gengas were more impressive....I wouldn't doubt if some of them were hand drawn by Mikimoto himself...

[JetJockey]

I just wanted the one Hikaru and Misa in valkyrie sketch.

 

 

We'll see what shows up on ebay. I don't know how many American buyers will want sketches with the Japanese notes. If these went to Mandarake I assume separately they would really get a lot of money like those sketches in the last page. I just saw this Minmay on ebay and I swear it was on Yahoo Japan some weeks back. It's being sold by "saraliso."

 

 

Also for the guy who posted about Rinkya, I saw this notice on an auction via Rinkya. "Bidding against a Rinkya bidder." So they tell you that you are competing against someone else on Rinkya. Whether that helps or not who knows?