Macross/Animation Cel Collection Thread

[elrdf]

I just hold on to some and sell the rest, in a way like i said it's beneficial. people outside of japan can have the opportunity to buy some cels,  In some cases I make some money back on expensive cels that I bought, it raises the value of everyone's cels here and the scalpers that are charging an arm and a leg it drives them away from the Macross cels.

[treker14]

Adding two Macross 7 cels. I know the one is not a great cel but it's from Macross 7 Plus, the 2-3 minute clips. I really like this one because it's a very funny scene used in Macross 7 Plus episodes 6 &11. The crew are wondering why Max & Miria are seperated and you here Miria screaming "Harder, Harder, Harder!!" and Michael grunting only to find him giving her a massage. 

The other is of the bridge crew Sally, Miho, & Kim 

[jvmacross]

Nice M7 cels!

[JetJockey]

I remember posting about that Saraliso seller and the Minmay Flashback cel. I see that the Yahoo Japan auction with Misa and the sketches are now on ebay as well. I guess I didn't notice that the Hikaru movie sketch was damaged from the Yahoo Japan auction. That was an expensive lot. But I guess they are keeping that Hikaru and Misa in valkyrie TV sketch and a few other pieces for themselves.

 

I guess we'll see if breaking up these pieces and selling them separately over here really works.

12 hours ago, MacrossManiac said:

The Max cel didn't have the background though, it was just the cel. I also wonder, I mean you can easily verify the authenticity of the cels on YJ as you can with Mandarake. I seriously wonder who is paying so much. The last Mandarake auction had Douga selling for such high prices. I'm thinking it was one person that was bidding on all of them. The storyboard for the last episode sold for over $6,000.00.

But the Max cel did have some of the background on the cel itself which to me is almost an good as having a background. And didn't that storyboard have some original sketches and drawings? That's probably why it went for so much. And it was the final episode.

[elrdf]

This one sold for over 23k a while back. Wow.

 

https://ekizo.mandarake.co.jp/auction/item/itemInfoEn.html?index=266361

[zard]

Major old news you are only five years late.  There are valid reasons why that specific drawing went as high as it went if you know anything about anime artwork. 

[jvmacross]

2 hours ago, elrdf said:

This one sold for over 23k a while back. Wow.

 

https://ekizo.mandarake.co.jp/auction/item/itemInfoEn.html?index=266361

Too bad you didn't snatch it up so we could all get the opportunity to buy it from you at double the price....I mean at least that would have been better than what UTHJ would have tried to scalp it for right? 

[elrdf]

1 hour ago, jvmacross said:

Too bad you didn't snatch it up so we could all get the opportunity to buy it from you at double the price....I mean at least that would have been better than what UTHJ would have tried to scalp it for right? 

Exactly!! Hahaha., jk. Nothing wrong with buying, keeping some and selling the rest, what I do is beneficial at the end of the day. Gettin cels out of Japan and people outside of japan can buy at decent prices. No need to exlpain myself to anyone anyways. I am a huge Macross fan and love collecting nice cels, selling some too.

[jvmacross]

2 minutes ago, elrdf said:

...what I do is beneficial at the end of the day. Gettin cels out of Japan and people outside of japan can buy at decent prices. 

.....you are quite delusional as you have apparently said this enough times to yourself that you believe it......but you can't possibly be that dense to believe that others here can't understand that they can simply save even more money by avoiding the middleman or scalper (you) and just buy the cels for themselves directly from the source of origin....seriously dude, just stop your bullshiit posts or stop coming to the cel forums....you are a stain on the hobby

[zard]

36 minutes ago, elrdf said:

Exactly!! Hahaha., jk. Nothing wrong with buying, keeping some and selling the rest, what I do is beneficial at the end of the day. Gettin cels out of Japan and people outside of japan can buy at decent prices. No need to exlpain myself to anyone anyways. I am a huge Macross fan and love collecting nice cels, selling some too.

Wait lets take a moment to really understand this... so you are buying up Macross art from Japan, and then deliberately flipping them?  And you are delusional enough to believe what you are doing is a "service" for people outside of Japan?  Unbelievable.  You are absolutely NOT creating any service or helping people outside of Japan by hoarding and selling off your scraps.  What you are doing is inflating prices and then scalping! 

So how on earth does this "benefit" other collectors?  Do you fail to understand you are the direct cause of the current inflated prices and why other collectors got outbid?  When you bid insane prices for artworks you DO NOT raise the value of other artwork existing in collections.  All you do is price out other interested buyers. 

More importantly why are you actively buying up everything in sight, just to sell them off at double and triple the final selling price?!  This practice is the definition of scalping! 

If you really want to allow other collectors the opportunity to buy at "decent prices", how about allowing other collectors the opportunity to bid without your involvement?  You got 20+ auctions in ebay right now and many of them were bought recently and relisted for significant markups.  You are doing exactly what UTHJ and silverdrago are doing and it is disgusting. 

Please stop lying that you are helping others, the only person you are helping is yourself. 

 

Edited June 19, 2019 by zard

[elrdf]

1 hour ago, zard said:

Wait lets take a moment to really understand this... so you are buying up Macross art from Japan, and then deliberately flipping them?  And you are delusional enough to believe what you are doing is a "service" for people outside of Japan?  Unbelievable.  You are absolutely NOT creating any service or helping people outside of Japan by hoarding and selling off your scraps.  What you are doing is inflating prices and then scalping! 

So how on earth does this "benefit" other collectors?  Do you fail to understand you are the direct cause of the current inflated prices and why other collectors got outbid?  When you bid insane prices for artworks you DO NOT raise the value of other artwork existing in collections.  All you do is price out other interested buyers. 

More importantly why are you actively buying up everything in sight, just to sell them off at double and triple the final selling price?!  This practice is the definition of scalping! 

If you really want to allow other collectors the opportunity to buy at "decent prices", how about allowing other collectors the opportunity to bid without your involvement?  You got 20+ auctions in ebay right now and many of them were bought recently and relisted for significant markups.  You are doing exactly what UTHJ and silverdrago are doing and it is disgusting. 

Please stop lying that you are helping others, the only person you are helping is yourself. 

 

Dude, whatever if I don't buy, 100% other ebay scalpers will like urbanthj. I have seen it then relisted quickly at a MUCH higher price. A lot of them I keep as well, they probably don't. I don't do it really to help others but in a way it really is beneficial like I said a cel that will sell for 30 I resell for 120 for example I'd be lucky to break even. Why? The proxy bidding fees, shipping, ebay sellers fees and shipping to the buyer what do ya make a few bux? Now that same 30 dollar cel if bought by a japanese scalper would sell it maybe for 300 and not incur a lot of the additional fees PLUS charge you shipping..

Edited June 19, 2019 by elrdf

[elrdf]

I'd like to stop the discussion about me reselling cels, quit dogging me and that's it. Whenever I post a new cel someone almost immediately has a comment to say or refer to me as a "dirty scalper" etc.. I LOVE Macross and collecting the cels. I happen to resell/trade them from time to time that's it period.

[jvmacross]

Ok....

So how about getting back to the discussion of legit cel collecting between legit cel collectors!  Remember that? 

 

Sooooooooo.....

I need some help identifying a Macross II cel, probably a Hanken.....

Some background....

A few years ago I came across this cel of Sylvie on a Japanese cel collector's website....

...he had several other legit cels from various Macross shows, although he seems to have sold all of them at this time....here is his site....

http://www.gundam-club.com/cels/anime_cels2.html

 

Anyways, the Macross II cel of Sylvie intrigued me because it looked so much different from the now well-recognized "Mikimoto version" of the same Sylvie pose...here is the one I am referring to which many here would be familiar with....

 

Well, I thought that perhaps it may have been a version drawn by some other illustrator...perhaps it was an early version done pre-production or perhaps as a promo for the "coming soon" marketing for Macross II.....for several years I just did not have anything to show me that it was at least a legit hanken of some sort or promotional cel used in the early marketing materials for Macross II....so I just let it sit at Mr. Gundam's website for a long time......perhaps some of you had seen it as well and did not pull the trigger because of the same lack of supporting evidence...although it was not that expensive, I had no need for fancels or flat-out knock-offs....I neeeded some sort of proof....

Flashforward to earlier this year.....I was browsing Macross World and I happend across a link to what I think was some sort of Macross event in Japan....however, to my surprise, one of the images that was used to represent the Macross II portion of the franchise included the very same image of Sylvie Gena that is on the cel shown above...the mysterious "non-Mikimoto" version as I have decided to call it....

Unfortunately,  I failed to bookmark or download the image and for whatever reason I have not been able to find the same image again....I have searched the webs with no luck.....however, since I did see it included in an official Macross event/promotion....I finally felt that the image was legit and thus pulled the trigger on it....without seeing it used in an official Macross event, I would not have purchased it...

So at this time, I am hoping someone recognizes this particular illustration of the lovely Sylvie Gena and can lead me to the image that I encountered a few months ago here on Macross World (which was a link to a Japanese site covering the Macross event)...Again, all I can remember was that it was used for some Macross event and it was part of the "Macross II" portion of the promotional materials at this event.....I used to think my Web Search Kung Fu was pretty strong, but this particular image has left me feeling beat.....I would be extremely grateful for any help in finding the source of this image on the web.....

So here are some more pics.......

 

Additionally,I have looked through oldschool magazine covering Macross II, the official Macross II published books (not very many of them), the toys, the promot flyers, the actual anime.....and have so far come up empty.......

I am by no means a Macross II expert, but I hope the hard core Macross II fans can shed some light into this mystery.....

 

Edited June 19, 2019 by jvmacross

[elrdf]

I spoke with a professional art restorator/conservator and we were discussing framing cels with backgrounds. He said that these Macross cels/drawings and backgrounds need to be deacidified with some type of calcium treatment or something like that. He said the paper that the backgrounds were on were not acid free. Also, he said acid free portfolio album's backing matte etc is not acid free. It is made acid free but once it touches the air the acid from the water in the air attaches to it so it's not truly acid free. I found all of this info to be very interesting cause I like to frame some good cels instead of keeping them in a dark storage room.

Obviously not to be in any direct light but I assumed that just UV protection acrylic glass and separate between the multi-layered cels and background by a few mm would suffice. He said it doesn't.. It just really sucks that you have to worry about this stuff. He also mentioned that if the lines in the cel are turning brown that it's a sign that the cel is started to disintegrate. The treatment for each background and drawing to make it essentially acid free is around $80-120 a piece. I wonder how long these will last without getting to the "oh crap" stage. Most of every cel, background, drawing that I have seem to be in beautiful immaculate condition aside from the black lines turning brown on the cel. Cels stuck to backgrounds he said is a big big issue and it can deteriorate completely in a short period of time. I know this has been discussed many times, however, I feel like this is some new important information that I never knew ( or some of it) .Any thoughts?

[zard]

On 6/18/2019 at 7:36 PM, elrdf said:

Dude, whatever if I don't buy, 100% other ebay scalpers will like urbanthj. I have seen it then relisted quickly at a MUCH higher price. A lot of them I keep as well, they probably don't. I don't do it really to help others but in a way it really is beneficial like I said a cel that will sell for 30 I resell for 120 for example I'd be lucky to break even. Why? The proxy bidding fees, shipping, ebay sellers fees and shipping to the buyer what do ya make a few bux? Now that same 30 dollar cel if bought by a japanese scalper would sell it maybe for 300 and not incur a lot of the additional fees PLUS charge you shipping..

 

On 6/18/2019 at 9:05 PM, elrdf said:

I'd like to stop the discussion about me reselling cels, quit dogging me and that's it. Whenever I post a new cel someone almost immediately has a comment to say or refer to me as a "dirty scalper" etc.. I LOVE Macross and collecting the cels. I happen to resell/trade them from time to time that's it period.

The truth hurts doesn't it?  In case you still have not determined the reasons why other collectors elect to call you out on your unethical behaviors, it is because YOU ARE A FREAKING SCALPER!  No one likes paying excessively high fees on items that are artificially inflated in price!  And as I and other collectors have clearly illustrated previously, YOU PUMP UP PRICES thereby pushing out other interested collectors, and then, attempt to dump the very cels you prevented other collectors from obtaining at reasonable prices. 

Seriously?  You are justifying your actions with horrid reasoning; there is zero accountability or logic being demonstrated.  No one is forcing you to buy up Macross artwork with the intention of reselling.  And no one is forcing you to pay the proxy service and shipping fees.  You are choosing to do so and as I've stated before, you are only helping yourself; you do not care about the cel community whatsoever.  If you genuinely want to help the cel community, you can elect to: a) stop bidding up and buying art you have zero intention of keeping (allow others to buy them from the source); b) post a gallery so others can see the items they lost out on; and c) actually do your own research on what it means to be an original art and cel collector and all the responsibilities it entails.  So far the majority of your posts on MW in this cel thread involves asking for information and our help, but, without offering anything in return.  Does this sound anything like a collector who cares to "contribute" or be a part of a community?  You are no longer a newbie collector now since you've probably amassed a collection in the double digits, so how about "giving something back" instead of being a mooch/taker?

Lastly, if anyone posted your story on the other cel forums, you would be blacklisted already and banned.  Collectors who scalp are despised and ostracized (and rightfully so).  So please keep telling yourself blatant lies how what you do is "beneficial" because you charge a reasonable markup of only triple or quadruple the final sale price in Japan.  You are unbelievably in major denial over your actions.

[Fortress_Maximus]

@jvmacross: My educated guess this was a tester cel, however, the details give me reason to doubt the origin.  MW user SAVE is a huge Macross II fan.  He might know more about that particular image. 

 

@elrdf: Unfortunately, owning original artworks be it animation cels, drawings, and/or paintings inherently poses risks.  The sad reality is the medium used for each of these artworks were never created to last and are exceptionally fragile.  With the rare exception of post production and limited edition creations, production artwork (especially cels circa 1980s) are in advanced stages of breaking down.  So before you even attempt to buy artwork it is already degrading.  Many production cels already have traceline fading (aka browning), stuck dougas, vinegar syndrome, or a combination of issues.

From a conservation perspective there are few techniques available to slow deterioration, but certainly no proven and consistent methods to reverse the common types of damage to artwork.  There are academic white papers written on this topic, but it basically boils down to accepting the art works are rapidly breaking down before you buy it and deciding what is the most prudent way of enjoying the art.  In my experience, original artworks are best preserved unframed, undisplayed, and stored in climate controlled environments, if your goal to extend the longevity.  If however, you need to display the artwork, accept doing so accelerates the deterioration process and be prepared to eventually pay a high amount to attempt to professionally restore.  I can share other resources on restoration which often cost more than the artwork itself.  Whatever path you choose, good luck because being an art collector is not for the faint of heart or financially challenged.

Edited June 21, 2019 by Fortress_Maximus

[elrdf]

22 minutes ago, Fortress_Maximus said:

@jvmacross: My educated guess this was a tester cel, however, the details give me reason to doubt the origin.  MW user SAVE is a huge Macross II fan.  He might know more about that particular image. 

 

@elrdf: Unfortunately, owning original artworks be it animation cels, drawings, and/or paintings inherently poses risks.  The sad reality is the medium used for each of these artworks were never created to last and are exceptionally fragile.  With the rare exception of post production and limited edition creations, production artwork (especially cels circa 1980s) are in advanced stages of breaking down.  So before you even attempt to buy artwork it is already degrading.  Many production cels already have traceline fading (aka browning), stuck dougas, vinegar syndrome, or a combination of issues before collectors ever attempt to buy it. 

 

From a conservation perspective there are few techniques available to slow deterioration, but certainly no proven and consistent methods to reverse the common types of damage to artwork.  There are academic white papers written on this topic, but it basically boils down to accepting the art works are rapidly breaking down before you buy it.  Original artworks are best preserved unframed, undisplayed, and stored in climate controlled environments, if your goal to extend the longevity.  If you insist on displaying artwork, accept doing so accelerates the deterioration process and be prepared to eventually pay a high amount to attempt to professionally restore.  Good luck.

 Thanks for the information hey I just had this crazy idea !! What if you could seal the  Cel and background in resin!!!?!?!  It would be preserved like forever you can have a matte finish to the resin or a glass you will never have to worry about it deteriorating ever !!

 Or like you see animal specimens or flowers that are in solid resin cubes they would last forever !! Any thoughts on that? 

[jvmacross]

8 minutes ago, MacrossManiac said:

 Thanks for the information hey I just had this crazy idea !! What if you could seal the  Cel and background in resin!!!?!?!  It would be preserved like forever you can have a matte finish to the resin or a glass you will never have to worry about it deteriorating ever !!

 Or like you see animal specimens or flowers that are in solid resin cubes they would last forever !! Any thoughts on that? 

..or how about carbonite?

[Fortress_Maximus]

@MacrossManiac:  I would not encase any artwork in resin mainly because it is still subject to light.  The light will still deteriorate the contents encased in resin.  Also, I do not want to handle artwork as fragile as cels, so using resin is not a good match for me.  But hey try it if you feel it might work, but I'd recommend using a low to medium grade artwork first.

On a related note for those of you interested, here is a research paper conducted by the American Institute for Conservation of Historic and Artistic Works.
http://resources.conservation-us.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2015/03/osg021-11.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2iCPSL_jYlwrFDDgJM0u3R-BRICuNypnHf6K-86t887ZmQ6OjEMsBJPCQ

osg021-11.pdf

[jvmacross]

https://www.npr.org/local/309/2019/06/13/732096338/vinegar-syndrome-is-eating-away-cook-county-history

[elrdf]

12 minutes ago, Fortress_Maximus said:

@MacrossManiac:  I would not encase any artwork in resin mainly because it is still subject to light.  The light will still deteriorate the contents encased in resin.  Also, I do not want to handle artwork as fragile as cels, so using resin is not a good match for me.  But hey try it if you feel it might work, but I'd recommend using a low to medium grade artwork first.

On a related note for those of you interested, here is a research paper conducted by the American Institute for Conservation of Historic and Artistic Works.
http://resources.conservation-us.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2015/03/osg021-11.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2iCPSL_jYlwrFDDgJM0u3R-BRICuNypnHf6K-86t887ZmQ6OjEMsBJPCQ

osg021-11.pdf 750.94 kB · 0 downloads

 You are right about the light factor maybe there could be an extra coat of some type of protection but I feel that if the background and the  Cel  weather slightly separated in different layers with in the resin or  stuck together it would  preserve it for such a long time like a very thin block of resin .  It would definitely need to be tried on cheaper pieces just to experiment with it .   It is just so frustrating that framing it is not really good and shortens the life of the art but the question is is some of these pieces still look really good even with vinegar syndrome after 36 years or so so I wonder how much longer they have before they completely disintegrate ..

[slide]

Resins also tend to get hot as the chemical reactions take place... 

[elrdf]

10 minutes ago, slide said:

Resins also tend to get hot as the chemical reactions take place... 

 I wonder how hot and if it’s enough to damage the piece unless something could be put over the background prior to the resin being poured over it to prevent the heat from damaging it there must be a way to preserve this art permanently sunlight can’t damage it but you can get some type of “sunglasses“ they can go over like shades and that’s your  leisure you can remove it to look at the art  there must be a way to be able to display it without it deteriorating ...

[jvmacross]

VF-1S cel....98,000 JPY

https://ekizo.mandarake.co.jp/auction/item/itemInfoEn.html?index=607657

Anyone here win it?

[jvmacross]

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/s668638248

Anyone else thought this was a questionable cel?

It didn't sell for 30K JPY then was relisted for no reserve.  The cel has no sequence markings.

[mokuji]

i think there are too many imperfections on this piece to be a fan cel or a fraud, nobody will spend hours creating a copy and keeping all these defaults

the sequence markings can be removed when cels are trimmed by bad collectors for framing purpose

[jvmacross]

Lots of nice Misa dougas/gengas on YJA from the Mars episode.....eyeing one of them

[de_005]

10 hours ago, jvmacross said:

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/s668638248

Anyone else thought this was a questionable cel?

It didn't sell for 30K JPY then was relisted for no reserve.  The cel has no sequence markings.

Looks odd to me as well. It doesn't resemble mikimoto's art style, and during that time, it was pretty pronounced.

[jvmacross]

1 minute ago, de_005 said:

Looks odd to me as well. It doesn't resemble mikimoto's art style, and during that time, it was pretty pronounced.

I am just not sure if it is a hanken or some other type of promo, assuming it is legit.....the fact that it had no marking apparently scared off other collectors when initialy listed.....

The image can be found in the bottom poster....still think it is not a cel used in actual production

[de_005]

4 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

I am just not sure if it is a hanken or some other type of promo, assuming it is legit.....the fact that it had no marking apparently scared off other collectors when initialy listed.....

The image can be found in the bottom poster....still think it is not a cel used in actual production

If it's in that poster, then it's appears legit. Don't think anyone would go to lengths recreating that shot. 2 reasons why it appears to be a production cel: 1) It has a background and 2) looks like all the other shots are from the TV episodes.  At this point, only question the mikimoto reference. Feels more like Hirano or someone else on the key animation team. Notice the Milia side profile shot directy above. That was drawn by another animator.

[jvmacross]

guess we'll never know

[Oden]

The image looks like it appears right at 15:09 mark in Macross Episode 18: Pineapple Salad (Farewell, Big Brother) during the transition from the explosion to when Miriya just starts to lift her head up to see Max. The white glare does obscures the image but based on the shading, scale and highlights it would appear to me to be authentic.

Since it is in a transitional scene could explain why there isn't sequence numbers.

I've attached a screen grab of the transition 

 

[Oden]

5 hours ago, jvmacross said:

I am just not sure if it is a hanken or some other type of promo, assuming it is legit.....the fact that it had no marking apparently scared off other collectors when initialy listed.....

The image can be found in the bottom poster....still think it is not a cel used in actual production

jvmacross, is this your poster? 

[jvmacross]

I have the poster, but this image is not mine, grabbed it off an auction...

If it is indeed an authentic cel, then it was a missed opportunity when no one was bidding on it at 30K....win some, lose some...

[Mokman]

Nice find Oden.  Definitely the cut the image is from.  I was able to get a better screen cap of it and I have to conclude that the cel in question was not used in the final production.  It is amazingly close, but there are some details that don't match.  Have a look at the closeups of the bulb at the side of her helmet.  Especially the bottom.  The highlight is not the same shape, and the black hash marks are different.  Also the spacing of the black bars along the jaw of the helmet is different, as well as those at the neck joint.  The cel is so close though that it might be possible that it was studio-made instead of a fan cel, but not the version of it that was used in production.  I can't see the image well enough on that poster to tell, but it might be this cel that was used for it instead of the production cel.  I know color can vary greatly across multiple scans, screen caps, etc, but the color of the cel seems to match much better the color in the poster than the color in the anime.  It would make sense to me too that an official, period product like the poster would have been created from legitimate artwork, and would not include an image of a fan cel.

Edited July 4, 2019 by Mokman