Macross/Animation Cel Collection Thread

[jvmacross]

44 minutes ago, juice14 said:

Says foreign bidder not allowed and I cannot bid using buyee..... Boo hiss

Apparently this doesn't stop Rinkya from accepting bids...

https://www.rinkya.com/en/auction-b335854157

You may want to ask Rinkya if their high bid was honored by the seller for his last auction.

 

[zard]

Wow lots of experienced cel collectors here!  Reading over this thread it sure seems like jvmacross and Fortress_Maximus really know a lot. So, did you guys or anyone else notice a surge in the sellers trying to flip Macross cels for a quick buck? I stopped collecting over a decade ago, but like to browse periodically. A few scalpers(?) I believe is the term I keep reading about on ebay include urbantreasurehunterjapan, saraliso, and silvrdrago. Just looking at their specific listing prices it makes me wonder what type of buyers would overpay so much?  Really it is rather fascinating to think a seller like saraliso in particular has many low end cels, and yet he is quite deluded to expect such high sale prices. I for one sure hope these three sellers especially are not fans here, if they are they should be ashamed leeching off of the fans. Sadly I would not be remotely surprised if at least one ebay scalper is on this forum. Anyone know?

[elrdf]

I’m selling a few from my collection on eBay  that I recently got to pay off a High end cel that I bought high price from urbantreasurs I didn’t want to sell what I’ve listed and didn’t expect to pay so much for the cel. Urban buys them cheap from Japan and sales at astronomical prices.

[zard]

I see elrdf. So are you one of the ebay sellers previously named?  If so which one?

[juice14]

Anyone here got this? https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/q236913930

[jvmacross]

I passed on it.....the two highest bidders were both competing proxies....probably Rinkya vs Buyee....with Buyee bidder winning I think....

Bidder / Ratings	Price	Quantity	Bid time
g*6*p*** / 26605   High bidder	63,349 yen	1	2018-09-24 10:02
t*V*7*** / 47190	62,349 yen	1	2018-09-24 20:55
8*D*K*** / 0	46,000 yen	1	2018-09-23 20:26

Went higher than expected....but there are apparently several new collectors bidding recently that have no clue what they are bidding on....

A cel like this one should have went for 400 max....reasonably between 300-350....

 

[juice14]

22 minutes ago, jvmacross said:

I passed on it.....the two highest bidders were both competing proxies....probably Rinkya vs Buyee....with Buyee bidder winning I think....

Bidder / Ratings	Price	Quantity	Bid time
g*6*p*** / 26605   High bidder	63,349 yen	1	2018-09-24 10:02
t*V*7*** / 47190	62,349 yen	1	2018-09-24 20:55
8*D*K*** / 0	46,000 yen	1	2018-09-23 20:26

Went higher than expected....but there are apparently several new collectors bidding recently that have no clue what they are bidding on....

A cel like this one should have went for 400 max....reasonably between 300-350....

 

That's why I thought thrice.... Plus I already have a Claudia Misa cel .....

[jvmacross]

You have chosen.....wisely 

[Mokman]

It would indeed seem there is some new active blood in the community, and that they have money and are willing to spend it.  Personally I don't have any problem with that.  The market is no longer what we knew it to be.  A group of people are willing to spend more so that makes the market what it is now.

[jvmacross]

Unless these new collectors have unlimited funds to match their lack of sense....this bubble will pop eventually and the market will self-correct.....has happened before and will happen again

[Mokman]

I've generally been quiet about this but I feel compelled to say something here.   I have been amazed by the tone this thread has taken recently with all the negativity towards resellers, and buyers who pay more than what "we" think the value of a cel is.  We are all engaged in a free market luxury hobby here.  None of us are entitled to any cel or to get it at any particular price.  The community controls the market by what sellers ask for cels and what buyers are willing to pay.  That a seller asks more for a cel than "we" think it is worth, or that we know for a fact they themselves paid much less for it, doesn't make them a bad person (ie these so called dreaded price gougers).  Heaven help us that someone is engaging in the economic mantra of buy low, sell high!  That someone is willing to pay more for a cel than "we" would doesn't make them stupid.  People are free to sell their own goods and spend their own money however they themselves see fit.  If they do so in a manner different from how "we" would, so be it.  That the actions of these individuals is, in general, driving up the price of cels is unfortunate for those not willing to pay so much, but in my opinion nothing to be so negative about.

[jvmacross]

I do not think anyone here needs a lecture on how markets work.  We get it.

The problem is about ethics.  More specifically the lack thereof.

You cannot come on this site, chastise online sellers for being "bunghole" scalpers, while you are also doing the exact same thing.  That is wrong and is a pathetic ploy at trying to make yourself look like a "kinder, gentler" seller.....when you are also being the same kind of bunghole sclaper yourself. 

What makes it worse is the repeated posts pretending that you are not partaking in such activity.  Does this person belive that with enough posts their BS will eventually be believed and accepted?  Sorry, I will call out BS when I encounter it. 

People that pay more for cels than they have to are not stupid, just uninformed.  Which is why it is important to keep collectors as informed as possible with current pricing.  But as with any "collectible" market....pricing can be very subjective and thus, it is fair game to analyze it.  Pricing analysis can provide a better idea where the market really is...as opposed to basing current pricing on the stupidity of two nitwits engaged in a bidding war. 

In other words, smart and fair analysis will help collectors from not getting fooled or talked into paying $1000 for a $500 cel.

 

[zard]

Respectfully disagree Mokman .  The cel community does not control squat. If this were remotely true scalpers like urbantreasurehunterjapan and silvrdrago would close business.  However the fact remains all it takes is one willing and uneducated buyer to support their practice of buying up large volumes of the cels on the secondary markets with the expressed purpose of SCALPING THEM.  This practice does not make the scalper a good person.  And while the seller might be lawfully engaging in free market enterprise it does not mean their business practice is remotely ETHICAL.  If that were true, then drug companies would not be under heavy fire from regulators and the public for selling drugs with markups exceeding 700% (e.g. Retrophin). The market would dictate the drug price which is not accurate.  In the collectibles market when scalpers buy with the expressed intent to heavily inflated prices, they are directly impact all the other collectors adversely. The sad truth is cel collectors in particular, have few resources other than forums like MW to discuss and analyze trends. Calling out questionable behavior by scalpers is warranted and certainly worthy of discussion. If nothing else it provides newer buyers with the opportunity to be forewarned which is more a community service than what the scalpers provide.

Edited September 24, 2018 by zard

[Mokman]

I guess the point I am trying to make is that I don't personally find what urbantreasurehunter and others are doing to be unethical.  To use zard's analogy, artificially raising the price purely for profit on something arguable essential for life like medications I would entertain as being unethical (but that is for another discussion).  Doing so on a pure luxury item like animation cels that no needs to have, I have a hard time raising to the level of unethical.  When reading this forum I am struck by how negatively other feel towards it, not because their opinion is wrong, just because it is so different from mine.

So if any of you care to respond, why do you feel the so called scalping is so terribly wrong as to call it unethical?

[Fortress_Maximus]

I concur with jvmacross and zard, the  issue is the complete lack of ethics.  Based on these sellers track record all they care about is making a profit, but at what cost?  Re-sellers can do whatever they want, however, I find a certain balance in how one conducts their business is important.  What some aforementioned sellers are doing is a preying on uninformed cel collectors.

On a personal note, I prefer to share my cel collecting experiences and MW, RS, AB, all serve as platforms to openly share information about cels, preservation, and concerns (scalpers or frauds).  I find we should not discourage or remove the important cel practice involving discussion and sharing information.  As a community we learn more from each other than alone.  Lastly, many cel collectors are secretive or inactive in any social setting, so it is important to allow and encourage what little 'active sharing' that exists.  

Edited September 24, 2018 by Fortress_Maximus

[juice14]

Hmmm interesting discussion.... this can apply to any item actually and not just cels. Unless you believe that somehow you can (or should) control the market and be the price setter here. We can rail and talk all you want but in the end its how you spend your own money versus others. Personally it may make you feel better to express opinions and be comforted that there are like minded people (no matter which side you support). However, in the end it is indeed an open market (well except for those where seller refuse to sell to certain segment e.g. proxy). Again speaking for myself.... I might have bid on a cel even knowing its high.... if I just had to have it. In this case I did not. 

 

On the topic of ethics, I don't think there are any here. We are not talking about cancer drugs (or other lifesaving stuff) nor public goods (like water). So its simply willing buyer willing seller that's it.

[Mokman]

To make myself more clear, I totally get the displeasure people have over the fact that the activity of scalpers generally increases the price of cels that all of us have to pay.  I get it.  I really do.  But it is not something I personally feel as strongly about as others seem to.  As I said in my prior post, I don't have a right to any of these cels nor to any particular price on them.  I'll pay what I am willing to pay, and if someone else is willing to pay more, more power to them!  I don't "need" to have that cel.

[juice14]

2 minutes ago, Fortress_Maximus said:

I concur with jvmacross and zard, the  issue is the complete lack of ethics.  Re-sellers can do whatever they want, however, a certain balance in how one conducts their business is important.  What some aforementioned sellers are doing is a preying on uninformed cel collectors.

On a personal note, I prefer to share my cel collecting experiences and MW, RS, AB, all serve as platforms to openly share information about cels, preservation, and concerns (scalpers or frauds).  I find we should not discourage or remove the important cel practice involving discussion and sharing information.  As a community we learn more from each other than alone.  Lastly, many cel collectors are secretive or inactive in any social setting, so it is important to allow and encourage what little 'active sharing' that exists.  

I agree with the sharing of knowledge .... totally down with that

[Mokman]

It is perhaps true that people paying high prices for cels are doing so from an uninformed position, but no one is forcing them to spend that money.  They think the product is worth the amount being paid.  The fact that they are unaware that they could have gotten it elsewhere for a lower price, like directly from YJ instead of from the Ebay reseller, is a different issue.  That is an entirely other base economic discussion I remember having in a college philosophy class.  The bottom line in my opinion is that they are willing to pay the price they did.  Are the Ebay resellers taking advantage, in a manner of speaking, of this ignorance?  Perhaps.  Does that make me think as low of them as others here do?  I don't think so.

[Mokman]

Absolutely, share all the knowledge that is out there.  Inform people that there are other source for cels, at lower prices, than what is currently being offered on Ebay.  I am all for that.  Taking it a step further and drawing conclusions on the ethics of the people posting those Ebay sales?  That is where I have a difference of opinion.

[jvmacross]

1 minute ago, Mokman said:

Absolutely, share all the knowledge that is out there.  Inform people that there are other source for cels, at lower prices, than what is currently being offered on Ebay.  I am all for that.  Taking it a step further and drawing conclusions on the ethics of the people posting those Ebay sales?  That is where I have a difference of opinion.

You don't have a problem with some of these scalpers coming on this board and misrepresenting themselves and their actions?  Posting things on this board in an attempt to differentiate their behavior and thus try and make themselves look "more ethical" than the "other guys" doing the exact same thing?   Is that not unethical behavior in your opinion?

[Mokman]

I have no personal knowledge of anyone misrepresenting themselves here.  I don't follow the discussions that closely, nor what their activities off this site might be.  I take it you are talking about elrdf?  It is ok to name him.  If we are going to discuss it we can be clear about who it is we are talking about.

So I don't know what exactly he has done, or you believe him to have done, that you find unethical.  My only dealings with him have been personal messages he has sent me attempting to buy things from my collection.  We couldn't come to a deal and that was the end of it.

I understand he is selling a few cels on Ebay to finance a more recent purchase but beyond that I don't know anything else about him.  How exactly has he misrepresented himself?

[jvmacross]

I just asked the question if you thought misrepresentation was unethical.  Regardless of who the person is or specific "examples" of misrepresentation, do you feel misrepresentation qualifies as unethical behavior in your book?  

[Mokman]

I don't have a simple answer to that.  To my mind the word unethical is a very serious thing.  Is all misrepresentation being unethical?  I don't think so.  Is telling someone they are 6 feet tall when they are only 5' 8" unethical?  It would depend on what their motivation in doing so was I guess.  What were they trying to obtain by misrepresenting themselves?  To reach the level of being unethical the misrepresentation would have be purposely trying to harm someone.  If such a think was taking place around the activity of this forum then yes I would say the misrepresentation was unethical.

[saffabrat]

Hey Guys... Speaking of paying a lot for a cell... I just bought this one... Won't say how much for as don't want to get picked on :)

I understand the frustrations mentioned but at the end of the day, if you choose to buy something, you potentially choose not to buy something else (in my case food for a week haha).

p.s. I finally got my VF-1S I bought a while back, will post some pics soon. Highlights - as feared the cel is in pretty bad shape (but still makes me happy looking at it) and am not sure if it is stuck to the drawing underneath (will get a professional to look at this at some point). Overall am still very happy as been after anything VF for a while ;)

Happy hunting everyone ;)

[juice14]

2 hours ago, saffabrat said:

Hey Guys... Speaking of paying a lot for a cell... I just bought this one... Won't say how much for as don't want to get picked on

I understand the frustrations mentioned but at the end of the day, if you choose to buy something, you potentially choose not to buy something else (in my case food for a week haha).

p.s. I finally got my VF-1S I bought a while back, will post some pics soon. Highlights - as feared the cel is in pretty bad shape (but still makes me happy looking at it) and am not sure if it is stuck to the drawing underneath (will get a professional to look at this at some point). Overall am still very happy as been after anything VF for a while

Happy hunting everyone

I have been hunting for a valk cel since forever! Congrats mate looking forward to seeing your goodies....

[jvmacross]

11 hours ago, saffabrat said:

Hey Guys... Speaking of paying a lot for a cell... I just bought this one... Won't say how much for as don't want to get picked on

I understand the frustrations mentioned but at the end of the day, if you choose to buy something, you potentially choose not to buy something else (in my case food for a week haha).

p.s. I finally got my VF-1S I bought a while back, will post some pics soon. Highlights - as feared the cel is in pretty bad shape (but still makes me happy looking at it) and am not sure if it is stuck to the drawing underneath (will get a professional to look at this at some point). Overall am still very happy as been after anything VF for a while

Happy hunting everyone

the asking price was $999....I am assume you paid nowhere near that price.....if you did...I need to start selling some cels myself! 

[zard]

ouch! if you bought that cel anywhere near $700 it was exceptionally high. nevertheless take good care of it. i read good cel preservation tips in the earlier pages - check them out.

[elrdf]

On 9/24/2018 at 1:02 PM, Mokman said:

I've generally been quiet about this but I feel compelled to say something here.   I have been amazed by the tone this thread has taken recently with all the negativity towards resellers, and buyers who pay more than what "we" think the value of a cel is.  We are all engaged in a free market luxury hobby here.  None of us are entitled to any cel or to get it at any particular price.  The community controls the market by what sellers ask for cels and what buyers are willing to pay.  That a seller asks more for a cel than "we" think it is worth, or that we know for a fact they themselves paid much less for it, doesn't make them a bad person (ie these so called dreaded price gougers).  Heaven help us that someone is engaging in the economic mantra of buy low, sell high!  That someone is willing to pay more for a cel than "we" would doesn't make them stupid.  People are free to sell their own goods and spend their own money however they themselves see fit.  If they do so in a manner different from how "we" would, so be it.  That the actions of these individuals is, in general, driving up the price of cels is unfortunate for those not willing to pay so much, but in my opinion nothing to be so negative about.

Well said Mokman. You're right.. I appreciate your comment.

[elrdf]

16 hours ago, juice14 said:

I have been hunting for a valk cel since forever! Congrats mate looking forward to seeing your goodies....

I have a rally nice valk cel like 2 or so if you'd be interested in trading.

[saffabrat]

@zard @jvmacross a gentleman doesn't disclose such things but assume I did not pay anything remotely close to either of your suggested prices  @jvmacross pm me if you want more info.

@elrdf please pm me with pics and prices of your VF stuff - I will expect a decent offer given the recent discussions on this forum 

I know slightly off topic, but FYI I ordered one of these yesterday: https://books.rakuten.co.jp/rb/15590159/ Some of the illustrations look really cool. Cost about $10 through buyee.jp. Will update more when I get it.

 

 

 

[jvmacross]

On 9/26/2018 at 12:57 AM, saffabrat said:

@zard @jvmacross assume I did not pay anything remotely close to either of your suggested prices  

I know slightly off topic, but FYI I ordered one of these yesterday: https://books.rakuten.co.jp/rb/15590159/ Some of the illustrations look really cool. Cost about $10 through buyee.jp. Will update more when I get it.

LOL....they were not our suggested prices.....

We also have other Macross topics on MW besides cels...

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/topic/29133-macross-books/?do=findComment&comment=1420226

Sadly, other than the cover illustration....there's not much else, in terms of illustrations, in the mook that hasn't been covered or published elsewhere before...

 

[saffabrat]

@jvmacross haha! 

Thanks for sharing the link to the book - have not received it yet but TBH, even if all else is rubbish, the front cover is awesome and will make a nice edition to my coffee table junk

Again slightly off topic, but saw there was a recent convention in California (Super Dimension I think). Did anyone go there and if so, see any stuff worth buying?

 

[jvmacross]

37 minutes ago, saffabrat said:

@jvmacross haha! 

Thanks for sharing the link to the book - have not received it yet but TBH, even if all else is rubbish, the front cover is awesome and will make a nice edition to my coffee table junk

Again slightly off topic, but saw there was a recent convention in California (Super Dimension I think). Did anyone go there and if so, see any stuff worth buying?

 

A nice Macross cover is always a good reason to buy any publication!

yeah....need to stay on topic, namely cel collecting on this thread.....

If you need more info on the SD Convention....check out this thread and post questions regarding it...BTW, never been to one...simply too far from me, I would need to bundle the trip with something like a Disneyland trip....maybe I'll do that someday!

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/topic/45397-super-dimension-convention-september-15-2018/

 

[JetJockey]

On 9/27/2018 at 11:49 AM, saffabrat said:

Again slightly off topic, but saw there was a recent convention in California (Super Dimension I think). Did anyone go there and if so, see any stuff worth buying?

I didn't make it. But I'm curious if any cels showed up there. I didn't see any in the images from the link in the topic. Usually the bigger conventions still have cel dealers.

 

I noticed that Viviere put some cels back up on ebay. That Rook one is cheaper and with an offer now. They also have some Macross cels. Prices seem more reasonable. Perhaps they are checking this topic with all the bad talk on scalpers.