Fortress_Maximus Posted September 26, 2017 Posted September 26, 2017 4 hours ago, jvmacross said: @fortress....Basically he refused to remove the cel from the frame to confirm if the cel was stuck to the sketch.....he also said 750 au was a fair price.....with that there was no further need for negotiations on the price since the actual condition of the cel could not be verified.....and if it was not stuck 750 au was too much for me to pay for the sketch....as the cel is of little value to me in its current state Pity, he might've had a sale if he was willing to compromise. This seller does not care/realize that the cel condition actually correlates with the resell value. Unfortunately, he is not willing to price to reflect this and I predict much like other overpriced items it will remain on ebay for awhile. Sometimes sellers try framing to drive up the price b/c they feel collectors will pay more, the thing is most cel collectors want to see the entire cel and douga (if available) to ascertain the condition. For me separating the douga is not essential but the condition of the cel is of paramount importance. Quote
jvmacross Posted September 26, 2017 Posted September 26, 2017 Agreed. If I know the sketch is stuck....then cel itself should be in good shape..... Lately, I have been into collecting the dougas....so was hoping the douga for that VF-1S cel was in good shape and detached... Oh well.... Quote
Fortress_Maximus Posted September 28, 2017 Posted September 28, 2017 Agreed! Sometimes the gengas and dougas are excellent pieces of production art. Speaking of which what do you think about this DYRL genga https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/q175319779 Quote
jvmacross Posted September 28, 2017 Posted September 28, 2017 Yes....saw that one....very nice rough genga....too high though.... Quote
Fortress_Maximus Posted September 28, 2017 Posted September 28, 2017 Yes the price is high. What price would you say accurately reflects the rarity and condition? Quote
JetJockey Posted September 29, 2017 Posted September 29, 2017 On 9/26/2017 at 4:21 PM, jvmacross said: Agreed. If I know the sketch is stuck....then cel itself should be in good shape..... Lately, I have been into collecting the dougas....so was hoping the douga for that VF-1S cel was in good shape and detached... Oh well.... Anime Link has a set from Macross: http://www.anime-link.com/miscgengadouga/ Quote
jvmacross Posted September 29, 2017 Posted September 29, 2017 @fortress....That's hard to say. It seems the genga these days are even harder to come by than cels. But I think on a straight auction with low starting bid.....it would go for something between 750-1500 usd..... What do you think it would fetch? @jetjockey.....funny....I think I saw those originally on YJA... Quote
Fortress_Maximus Posted September 29, 2017 Posted September 29, 2017 (edited) That Misa DYRL genga depending on the condition should sell between $800 to $2,000 USD. I agree if the starting price was lower, there would be much more interest, but at the current price, it is unlikely to get a single bid. This seller is behaving like many private Japanese collectors I know that list on YJP, they will only list at a premium; this is also why for some high end private collectors unless you got at least $50,000 USD cash they won't even entertain offers. Edited September 29, 2017 by Fortress_Maximus Quote
Fortress_Maximus Posted September 29, 2017 Posted September 29, 2017 I am sure you saw this Minmay cel https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/o202764565 I think it is another well-made fake. Thoughts? Quote
JetJockey Posted September 30, 2017 Posted September 30, 2017 16 hours ago, jvmacross said: @jetjockey.....funny....I think I saw those originally on YJA... I don't know what to say about that. A friend of mine always sees Anime Link at California conventions and says they have the good stuff. Quote
Oden Posted September 30, 2017 Posted September 30, 2017 I to would agree that it does not appear to be authentic. Quote
Fortress_Maximus Posted September 30, 2017 Posted September 30, 2017 (edited) @JetJockey: You do know that dealers are simply re-sellers right? AnimeLink is no exception. Where do you think they obtain their inventory? As we've discussed before in this very thread, AnimeLink has some industry connections, but what you may not know is they have purchased artwork from artists, collectors, and have even sold on consignment. Over the years they've amassed a large network of international contacts and sources which is why they have as you called it "...the good stuff". So it should not be any surprise if and when AnimeLink offers similar artwork that may have previously appeared on YJP. Edited September 30, 2017 by Fortress_Maximus Quote
Fortress_Maximus Posted September 30, 2017 Posted September 30, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, Oden said: I to would agree that it does not appear to be authentic. @Oden: What specifically did you observe that leads you to doubt the cel authenticity? Edited September 30, 2017 by Fortress_Maximus Quote
Mokman Posted September 30, 2017 Posted September 30, 2017 I too think there is a chance it is fake. It just looks to clean and crisp for me. I doesn't seem to have the right age to it. I tried looking for a screen cap to compare it to but couldn't find it. The only time I could find where she wears that outfit is in episode #7 but that particular shot doesn't seem to be in it. Quote
Mokman Posted September 30, 2017 Posted September 30, 2017 I take that back, I did find it. It is in an extended sequence in Macross that is not in the corresponding Robotech episode. It is very hard to tell but it seems to me to be a fake. There appears to be some very slight differences in the line work, particularly in the details in her eyes, the black shadow under her chin, and the dark lines above her right forearm. Not to mention the color is very far off (though I don't put a whole lot of weight into that). Quote
Fortress_Maximus Posted October 1, 2017 Posted October 1, 2017 (edited) I concur. If we examine SDFM TV Episode 7 at 6:48 we can compare the two images as Mokman has shown above. There are multiple tells indicating the cel offered is not authentic. First, as with any cel that is 30+ years old there should be some traceline fading, but this cel has barely any. Also the cel itself does not display the acetate dullness that is commonly found with older cels. This cel is exceptionally clean and shines which makes it highly suspect. Second, the line thickness around Minmay's left eyebrow, her nose, her chin are of particular concern. Additionally, the shadows cast around her bangs, next to her left eye, and the shadows near her left fingers all do not correspond with the original image. Also note the shadow and extra lines added under her chin in the offered cel do not match too. Third, the extra white paint behind her hair does not belong. This was not used as FX or even as a flash or lensflare. Fourth, her head/hair is actually elongated in the original but the offered cel is quite proportional and matches her DYRL designs better than her SDFM version. Fifth, the folds on her jacket on both the left an right sides do not match the final image. Sixth, her tie does not match up in the placement and the red color fill; the red should completely fill the space between her hands up to her vest but still leave space under her neck. Also I agree the colors are off but it is interesting to note the hair colors are much closer to the original, while the skin tones appear off. I think the cel creator took some creative liberties plus accidentally corrected things such as the red tie, skin tone, shading and even the darker line shading (just to name a few changes). Lastly, this should be a tome cel but the sequence numbers do not indicate it as such. Overall, a well-made fan cel which hopefully will not fool anyone here. Edited October 2, 2017 by Fortress_Maximus Quote
jvmacross Posted October 1, 2017 Posted October 1, 2017 How many cel frames make up that scene? The one that was listed was A4....if it had multiple frames then the one posted for comparison may have not been A4... Quote
Fortress_Maximus Posted October 1, 2017 Posted October 1, 2017 (edited) Could be wrong but it was a single still shot or held shot which is held longer than most shots. There really should not be multiple frames. For these shots typically tome identified cels are used. Edited October 2, 2017 by Fortress_Maximus Quote
jvmacross Posted October 1, 2017 Posted October 1, 2017 If you are correct then the "A4" label may be the biggest hint against its authenticity.... Quote
Mokman Posted October 1, 2017 Posted October 1, 2017 The image is still so there should only be one cel. I am not so sure it is a 4 on the cel. Some Japanese character perhaps? Either way someone seems to have paid money for it. Quote
jvmacross Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 To me the tiny non-red areas by her neck tie seems odd.....the screen cap shows 2 areas that are clearly marked as a separate part of the tie and her shirt....yet they are colored red....the "fake cel" actually "corrects" the original "mistake" from the original cel.... Quote
Fortress_Maximus Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) Agreed. I also noted the cel creator took creative liberties with the colors and correcting mistakes too. I mentioned the red paint fill error/correction as the sixth tell. Did you notice any other concerns? @mokman: If you know, what variations have you seen for tome identification on cels? On the counterfeit the kanji is not correct. Edited October 2, 2017 by Fortress_Maximus Quote
jvmacross Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 ultimately, it is up to the buyer to examine all of the info and make their own call on authenticity and value....for what it sold for, I am guessing others also thought it may have been a fan cel too.... Can't tell if the high bidder was a proxy or local bidder? Quote
Fortress_Maximus Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 I concur. Ultimately, the onus is on the prospective buyer to conduct their due diligence. Hopefully whomever purchased this counterfeit cel was not deceived by the craftsmanship. If the price was lower even I would not mind purchasing what amounts to a fan cel. Unfortunately when YJA changed the userid tracking procedures, it stopped everyone from determining the identity of the bidding and winning party. But, if we see our good friend urbantreasurehunterjapan or another gouger offer it on ebay, we will know all we need to know, right? Quote
jvmacross Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 LOL.....he will list it at 600 USD easily....then have a 5% off sale in a couple of weeks! Quote
Mokman Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 Have you all seen this listing on Mandarake? Any ideas what the hanken was used for? http://ekizo.mandarake.co.jp/auction/item/itemInfoEn.html?index=540859 Quote
Fortress_Maximus Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 Most likely a PC game. The matching douga was sold years ago. Why they failed to keep the two together is a mystery since they typically keep things together. Quote
jvmacross Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 Maybe Mandarake makes more money when they sell separately.... Quote
Fortress_Maximus Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 Possibly or could just be an honest mistake. Who knows? Suppose it really doesn't matter now since it is being offered. Wonder if the previous owner will pick this up. Are you interested in this? Quote
jvmacross Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 No....the art style looks worse than some fanart.... Quote
JetJockey Posted October 3, 2017 Posted October 3, 2017 13 hours ago, jvmacross said: ultimately, it is up to the buyer to examine all of the info and make their own call on authenticity and value....for what it sold for, I am guessing others also thought it may have been a fan cel too.... Can't tell if the high bidder was a proxy or local bidder? I tend to put more weight on the seller when dealing with used and items of this sort. They are the ones who purchased it originally and are in possession of the cel or whatever item. Maybe if the seller is selling for someone else. But then they should still check to see the value of what they are selling and know something about what the item is. To have a good auction between two parties that are individuals there should be open and complete communication about the item with as much detail as possible. The price of that Minmay auction says fan cel. And it looks like some of those you guys posted some pages back. Still it went for too much. I would put my money towards a sketch. I've never seen a cel not match what is on screen. That doesn't make sense unless it was some unknown cut sequence. Quote
jvmacross Posted October 6, 2017 Posted October 6, 2017 On 10/2/2017 at 2:25 PM, Mokman said: Have you all seen this listing on Mandarake? Any ideas what the hanken was used for? http://ekizo.mandarake.co.jp/auction/item/itemInfoEn.html?index=540859 http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/topic/29133-macross-books/?do=findComment&comment=1260504 Quote
JetJockey Posted October 7, 2017 Posted October 7, 2017 I think I'm going to deal with Urban Treasure Hunter, they found something I might want. I never saw it on Yahoo Japan either. But I have to confirm it this weekend. Quote
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