Top 10 Pilots

[treatment]

hope the quote-system works. crap. it didn't.

The Ghost didn't hit EITHER of them.

Guld, however, took off after the Ghost as soon as it made itself known, because in his estimation there was no way for Isamu to win.

Uhmm, whatcha talkin' about?

Both went after the Ghost. Isamu just got overruled 2-1 with Yang as the swing-vote.

An accurate estimation as regardless of skill, Isamu wouldn't have been able to even manipulate his controls while doing the high-G maneuvers needed to keep up with the Ghost. Or even see the Ghost at all after his eyeballs popped.

...

Actually, given the maneuvers that were being pulled, I suspect Isamu would have blacked out well before it became an issue.

Only reason I can think of that Guld DIDN'T is that the zentradi are engineered to have higher G tolerances.

So that's 2 non-skill reasons that Guld and Guld alone could beat the Ghost(BCS and superior genetics).

lol!

No. Try not to pass your speculations as proof that Isamu couldn't handle the Ghost X9.

As to your Hi-G stuff, it's non-sequitur. Isamu would've just use a different tactic against the X9. Guld didn't know anything else, so he went bruteforce kamikaze since it's his only option.

Furthermore, skillwise, Isamu dominated Guld in every battle and contest between the YF-19 and the YF-21. There was the scoreboard to verify that. And again, Guld missed pointblank in the atmospheric freefall and missed with his final missile-barrage.

Well... any zentradi or half-zentradi pilot in the BCS-equipped YF-21 that hadn't been brainwashed by Sharon could beat the Ghost. But there was only the one plane, and Guld had it.

Another speculation and cannot be proven since Guld's the only one who can control the YF-21 with the BCS/BDI system.

And Guld managed to kamikaze the ghost while his organs were being turned to jello by the intense g-forces of matching the maneuvers of a machine with no fleshy bits to damage.

Just maintaining focus under those conditions would be near-impossible, much less fighting effectively. Guld managed to do both.

Again, see my response above regarding your Hi-G speculation. It's a matter of knowing more tactics to use than just bruteforce.

A. You've just said "Project Supernova was rigged to make the YF-19 win." There is no way whatsoever that Guld EVER would have gotten the job as a test pilot for the next-gen combat plane had he NOT been a pilot of comparable skill to Isamu.

Well, more accurately, Isamu wouldn't have been chosen had he not been of comparable skill, because Guld was there first.

This was intended to be a scientific test with as few variables as possible. That means closely matched pilot skill levels.

Huh? How did I say the test was rigged to make the YF-19 win? I don't see that in any of my posts.

But to entertain you, Guld was the designer of the YF-21 and no other pilot knows how to work it. Unlike the YF-19, which lost 2-3 pilots prior to Isamu. Isamu proved to be the only one who can handle the YF-19.

However back to the testing, that's just basic-piloting and synthetic tests for the YF-21 and does not compensate for actual combat-situations with other combat-variables. This is proven quite distinctly when Guld lost complete control of the YF-21 when Isamu's VF-11B popped up between him and the last dud-missile. Isamu never lost control of the situation. Think about that.

B. How does the ability to concentrate while your body is LITERALLY tearing itself apart prove that you aren't a skilled combat pilot?

Easy. It's called desperate gamble since Guld's tactics were insufficient to deal with the X9. Sure, he can follow the X9, but that's about it. The X9 pretty much tore his YF-21 apart and Guld's left with no other option but a kamikaze-run.

Let's recap the final duel-scenes:

- Guld missed with his missile-barrage. Completely missed.

Only because Isamu killed his engines while deploying flares. Otherwise he would have been 17 kinds of dead.

This will be important momentarily.

That's tactical superiority. Guld did not know that tactic at all, but Isamu does. That's a honed skill and applied to combat effectively by Isamu.

- Guld lost focus and control by thinking and being convinced that he got Isamu and he wallowed in self-pity. Bad move since Isamu was still alive.

Guld remembered something he had blocked, and realized he sucked as a person.

He's allowed some self-pity.

As a fighter-pilot or any soldier or even a welder for cryin' out loud, you are not supposed to lost focus and concentration. Otherwise, you're dead on the field quite quickly or you will cause the deaths of your comrades. That's why there's training to help avoid that specific situation. Military-training and experience in the case of Isamu.

Note that he never took any part of his plane offline. Sensors were still running, and he was still at full capacity. Well, as full as he could be with no missiles and probably no bullets.

By the time Guld noticed the YF-19's shadow, it would've been too late had Isamu been bent on killing him like Guld was intent on killing Isamu. That's why Isamu had smirky attitude because both of them knew who has the superior position and there was no need to demonstrate it further.

- Isamu was fully in control of the situation and let Guld wallow. Guld's done for if Isamu wanted Guld dead then and there since Guld didn't know where Isamu's status or location was.

A. The YF-21 sensors were wired directly into Guld's mind. As soon as anything showed up on them, he'd see it just as if he was staring straight at it. And it's implied that the YF-21 has 360-degree sensor coverage. Guld had an unparalleled iew of the sky.

Which wouldn't matter at all and is quite irrelevant since Guld did not detect Isamu at all until he saw the YF-19 shadow.

B. Isamu's YF-19 was OFF. He had no engines, no thrusters, no transformation capability. As soon as he brought it online, he'd be lit up like a christmas tree for Guld. And(assuming Guld still wanted to waste him) would be blown away before his systems were back online.

Again, you're just doing some wishful thinking. Isamu had the superior position. Both of them know that when Guld finally noticed the YF-19's shadow.

That's why and how Isamu was the better pilot than Guld.

Because Isamu turns his plane off in mid-dogfight, and Guld had mental problems.

Right.

316712[/snapback]

hehehe

Edited August 3, 2005 by treatment

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Max is still da best:

-Beat milia 3 times while perving. (there is no excuse since in the arcade they had equal sized valks)

-Was not at any point worried about death unlike hikaru who was scared poo of kamjin in the battroid vs glaug fight on the hull of a ship in space. Note the sweat on his face. A pilot in complete control should keep his cool like max

-He didn't lose focus in any situation unlike roy who died from a meltradi grunt. Unlike shin there was no 'learning curve' of failures before getting better through experience and making mistkes like normal people. Max is a genius!

-Max = the Amuro Ray of the macross universe. Does not matter what limits of the technology, he will make the most of what he's been given. Roy and Hikaru had a slightly better machine in the tv series. (the head laser and visor) He survives everything. Maybe one day he will die protecting someone by going on a suicide mission with very high chance of failure. But guess what? Max is also very lucky. Number 7 seems to pop up alot. Macross 7, 7 daughters, 7 days in a week etc

-Glasses don't mean he's a weak nerd. He fights very well in the resturant. What he lacks in brute strength he makes up for in speed, agility, keen senses, and intellect. He will push himself to the edge and even modified the gunpod so that it could be used as an arm cannon.

I think success in 1-to1 dofights are the best measure of a pilots skill since it means there are no distractions like stray fire or SDF-1 main gun being fired at you by accident or Big bird humans frying you from behind or other such nonsense to get in the way. This is why I was disapointed that roy didn't finally get to overcome his teacher. I wanted to see him pull off an interesting move like shin that the his teacher might not have been prepared for.

As for Guld vs Isamu:

yf21 was a better machine which is why Guld said that isamu has less chance of beating it. (moving at the speed of thought gave guld the edge)

The ghost, having no pilot, could probably pull off moves that would kill a pilot giving it the greater speed, so it makes sense that Guld would stand better chance with his machine. If both pilots had not spent all thier effort fighting against each other(wasted ammo) and had Myung not been held captive, they could have both double teamed the ghost and lived. It was a team effort. Isamu still had to fight the sdf1 and guld had the ghost.

Isamu is probably better than guld overall and tried much harder due to his reckless attitude and willingness to break the limits. But that doesn't mean Guld's skills can't be developed and sharpened more with time. I think like with the street fighter characters of Ryu and Ken, they were both destined to challenge each other and through the competition raise each other's limits to make them both get better than what they were before. ...Then as they reached a new level and raised a new bar for themselves, they would have the needed skills at fighting sharon and the hacked ghost drone. (maybe the love triangle was a blessing in disguise, without it, the world might not have been saved and Sharon's hypnotic spell would have everyone under her control? The "recklessness/rule breaking" was a good thing in this case.)

Akthough robots can think and react faster, humans can adapt to changing situations and come up with new ways to cope. Notice that the one weakness of a computer is that it cannot truly "create" its own original music? I think that was why Guld defeated the ghost and isamu defeated sharon because they could think for themselves and break that hypnosis and ignore the rules that was being brainwashed into thier minds. And the tactics that they thought up in real time in changing situations allowed them to win.

An important thing to remember though is that just because you have experience fighting weak enemies who are way worse than you in skill does not mean you are getting better. (in fact this can only make you more complacent. True skill is always surrounding yourself with people at your same level of skill or better and then challenging them to make yourself the top dog. Isamu was bored where he was formally because all the people were way worse than him meaning there was no challenge or excitement. It wasn't until guld that he was sweating his ass off.

This is why I say 1-to-1 dogfights are better measure of skill than "total number of enemy kills" since inexperienced cannon fodder enemies poses no threat and you can just rack up heaps of points with little risk. (which is what I suspect might have happened with roy which cost him his life due to having such a relaxed attitude)

As for the Qrau being a bigger target: no excuse since the speed of the machine is amazing (when it first made its debut, note how the Qrau could fly rings around the VF1s and Roy's surprised expression at the sheer speed of the thing on first sight?). There is also the fact that it can hold more micromissiles. Things which pretty much spell certain death for those victims who can't dodge between them when released all at once on a single target. But max managed to fly through these. So milia, having a faster machine (well for space at least) can't fall back on that excuse. Speed = means you can outmanuever fire easier and strafe like mad. Max used his brains and led her to an enclosed space with lots of buildings and obstacles which would pose a threat to a bigger machine, which gave him the advantage. (bringing me back to my earlier point about intelligence vs brute strength in combat)

One thing I wish would happen is if they introduced the bits more in combat. There were little support drones in macross II. If you combine these with the BDI and BCS you will have one killer machine. What I propose is a 2 seater fighter with both pilots hooked into brainwave controller, and one would direct the bits and the other would pilot. This would have helped greatly against the protodevlin whose soldiers seemed to have superior firepower in mac7. Gubaba could pilot using the BCS (don't laugh) while mylene could concentrate on singing.

Edited August 3, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Zentrandude]

hope the quote-system works. crap. it didn't.

The Ghost didn't hit EITHER of them.

Guld, however, took off after the Ghost as soon as it made itself known, because in his estimation there was no way for Isamu to win.

Uhmm, whatcha talkin' about?

Both went after the Ghost. Isamu just got overruled 2-1 with Yang as the swing-vote.

An accurate estimation as regardless of skill, Isamu wouldn't have been able to even manipulate his controls while doing the high-G maneuvers needed to keep up with the Ghost. Or even see the Ghost at all after his eyeballs popped.

...

Actually, given the maneuvers that were being pulled, I suspect Isamu would have blacked out well before it became an issue.

Only reason I can think of that Guld DIDN'T is that the zentradi are engineered to have higher G tolerances.

So that's 2 non-skill reasons that Guld and Guld alone could beat the Ghost(BCS and superior genetics).

lol!

No. Try not to pass your speculations as proof that Isamu couldn't handle the Ghost X9.

As to your Hi-G stuff, it's non-sequitur. Isamu would've just use a different tactic against the X9. Guld didn't know anything else, so he went bruteforce kamikaze since it's his only option.

Furthermore, skillwise, Isamu dominated Guld in every battle and contest between the YF-19 and the YF-21. There was the scoreboard to verify that. And again, Guld missed pointblank in the atmospheric freefall and missed with his final missile-barrage.

Well... any zentradi or half-zentradi pilot in the BCS-equipped YF-21 that hadn't been brainwashed by Sharon could beat the Ghost. But there was only the one plane, and Guld had it.

Another speculation and cannot be proven since Guld's the only one who can control the YF-21 with the BCS/BDI system.

And Guld managed to kamikaze the ghost while his organs were being turned to jello by the intense g-forces of matching the maneuvers of a machine with no fleshy bits to damage.

Just maintaining focus under those conditions would be near-impossible, much less fighting effectively. Guld managed to do both.

Again, see my response above regarding your Hi-G speculation. It's a matter of knowing more tactics to use than just bruteforce.

A. You've just said "Project Supernova was rigged to make the YF-19 win." There is no way whatsoever that Guld EVER would have gotten the job as a test pilot for the next-gen combat plane had he NOT been a pilot of comparable skill to Isamu.

Well, more accurately, Isamu wouldn't have been chosen had he not been of comparable skill, because Guld was there first.

This was intended to be a scientific test with as few variables as possible. That means closely matched pilot skill levels.

Huh? How did I say the test was rigged to make the YF-19 win? I don't see that in any of my posts.

But to entertain you, Guld was the designer of the YF-21 and no other pilot knows how to work it. Unlike the YF-19, which lost 2-3 pilots prior to Isamu. Isamu proved to be the only one who can handle the YF-19.

However back to the testing, that's just basic-piloting and synthetic tests for the YF-21 and does not compensate for actual combat-situations with other combat-variables. This is proven quite distinctly when Guld lost complete control of the YF-21 when Isamu's VF-11B popped up between him and the last dud-missile. Isamu never lost control of the situation. Think about that.

B. How does the ability to concentrate while your body is LITERALLY tearing itself apart prove that you aren't a skilled combat pilot?

Easy. It's called desperate gamble since Guld's tactics were insufficient to deal with the X9. Sure, he can follow the X9, but that's about it. The X9 pretty much tore his YF-21 apart and Guld's left with no other option but a kamikaze-run.

Let's recap the final duel-scenes:

- Guld missed with his missile-barrage. Completely missed.

Only because Isamu killed his engines while deploying flares. Otherwise he would have been 17 kinds of dead.

This will be important momentarily.

That's tactical superiority. Guld did not know that tactic at all, but Isamu does. That's a honed skill and applied to combat effectively by Isamu.

- Guld lost focus and control by thinking and being convinced that he got Isamu and he wallowed in self-pity. Bad move since Isamu was still alive.

Guld remembered something he had blocked, and realized he sucked as a person.

He's allowed some self-pity.

As a fighter-pilot or any soldier or even a welder for cryin' out loud, you are not supposed to lost focus and concentration. Otherwise, you're dead on the field quite quickly or you will cause the deaths of your comrades. That's why there's training to help avoid that specific situation. Military-training and experience in the case of Isamu.

Note that he never took any part of his plane offline. Sensors were still running, and he was still at full capacity. Well, as full as he could be with no missiles and probably no bullets.

By the time Guld noticed the YF-19's shadow, it would've been too late had Isamu been bent on killing him like Guld was intent on killing Isamu. That's why Isamu had smirky attitude because both of them knew who has the superior position and there was no need to demonstrate it further.

- Isamu was fully in control of the situation and let Guld wallow. Guld's done for if Isamu wanted Guld dead then and there since Guld didn't know where Isamu's status or location was.

A. The YF-21 sensors were wired directly into Guld's mind. As soon as anything showed up on them, he'd see it just as if he was staring straight at it. And it's implied that the YF-21 has 360-degree sensor coverage. Guld had an unparalleled iew of the sky.

Which wouldn't matter at all and is quite irrelevant since Guld did not detect Isamu at all until he saw the YF-19 shadow.

B. Isamu's YF-19 was OFF. He had no engines, no thrusters, no transformation capability. As soon as he brought it online, he'd be lit up like a christmas tree for Guld. And(assuming Guld still wanted to waste him) would be blown away before his systems were back online.

Again, you're just doing some wishful thinking. Isamu had the superior position. Both of them know that when Guld finally noticed the YF-19's shadow.

That's why and how Isamu was the better pilot than Guld.

Because Isamu turns his plane off in mid-dogfight, and Guld had mental problems.

Right.

316712[/snapback]

hehehe

316777[/snapback]

I thought yang got ejected b4 the ghost fight.

[JB0]

Uhmm, whatcha talkin' about?

Both went after the Ghost.  Isamu just got overruled 2-1 with Yang as the swing-vote.

Fine. Guld CONTINUED after the Ghost because both him AND Yang believed Isamu couldn't take it.

lol!

No. Try not to pass your speculations as proof that Isamu couldn't handle the Ghost X9.

Wait, so you're saying that Isamu could continue to operate controls accurately while Guld's eyeballs exploded? It's not speculation.

As to your Hi-G stuff, it's non-sequitur. Isamu would've just use a different tactic against the X9. Guld didn't know anything else, so he went bruteforce kamikaze since it's his only option.

Because he DIDN'T just spend 10 minutes dogfighting Isamu?

He knew how to shoot stuff.

Furthermore, skillwise, Isamu dominated Guld in every battle and contest between the YF-19 and the YF-21. There was the scoreboard to verify that. And again, Guld missed pointblank in the atmospheric freefall and missed with his final missile-barrage.

He did not DOMINATE Guld in every single batlte and contest. He was wild, reckless, and tended to do things like shoot the hostage and leave the course for the sake of doing some elaborate skywriting which, while impressive, doesn't score points.

Another speculation and cannot be proven since Guld's the only one who can control the YF-21 with the BCS/BDI system.

It's neither stated nor implied that only Guld could use the BCS.

And it's a well-founded speculation.

The zentradi were genetically engineered to be warriors. They have more durable bodies than humans.

The BCS removes the need to manipulate controls, which was impossible during the maneuvers needed to keep pace with the Ghost, regardless of what your inner fanboy says.

Again, see my response above regarding your Hi-G speculation. It's a matter of knowing more tactics to use than just bruteforce.

Again see my response about the extended dogfight immediatly preceding the Ghost showing Guld can fight.

Huh? How did I say the test was rigged to make the YF-19 win? I don't see that in any of my posts.

But to entertain you, Guld was the designer of the YF-21 and no other pilot knows how to work it. Unlike the YF-19, which lost 2-3 pilots prior to Isamu. Isamu proved to be the only one who can handle the YF-19.

If no other pilot knew how to work it, and could not be trained to do so in a short period of time, it was worthless.

You forget that Project Supernova was to select a new MASS-PRODUCTION GENERAL-USE fighter for aLL of UN Spacey. Not to show off a pair of badass, but ultimately useless, concept planes.

And the tests being done required pilots of equivalent skill.

When you have both mecha in the same map at the same time shooting at the same targets, if one pilot is far more skilled than the other he will USUALLY come out ahead, regardless of who has the better vehicle. As Project Supernova was about finding the better PLANE, not the better PILOT, they sought pilots of equivalent skill level.

However back to the testing, that's just basic-piloting and synthetic tests for the YF-21 and does not compensate for actual combat-situations with other combat-variables. This is proven quite distinctly when Guld lost complete control of the YF-21 when Isamu's VF-11B popped up between him and the last dud-missile. Isamu never lost control of the situation. Think about that.

Again, you're citing Guld's mental problems as proof that he wasn't a qualified combat pilot, as opposed to proof he was mentally ill.

Easy. It's called desperate gamble since Guld's tactics were insufficient to deal with the X9. Sure, he can follow the X9, but that's about it. The X9 pretty much tore his YF-21 apart and Guld's left with no other option but a kamikaze-run.

The X9 never HIT his YF-21. The simple fact was that even with teh BCS and BDI, the Ghost was capable of dodging anythign he threw at it(presumably it was either equipped with anti-optical armor, or could dodge laser fire by detecting the pre-fire charge).

Guld was not stupid. He knew that he still had weapons.

He CHOSE not to use them.

That's tactical superiority. Guld did not know that tactic at all, but Isamu does. That's a honed skill and applied to combat effectively by Isamu.

If I recall, Isamu said Guld TAUGHT him the technique.

I may be mistaken.

As a fighter-pilot or any soldier or even a welder for cryin' out loud, you are not supposed to lost focus and concentration. Otherwise, you're dead on the field quite quickly or you will cause the deaths of your comrades. That's why there's training to help avoid that specific situation. Military-training and experience in the case of Isamu.

And if you have a severe mental illness that does not impair you except in the presence of a single human being in the universe?

Does the military account for that? Or does it not worry about it?

Given Millard swept it under the rug AFTER Isamu showed up, I assume UN Spacey prefers the latter.

By the time Guld noticed the YF-19's shadow, it would've been too late had Isamu been bent on killing him like Guld was intent on killing Isamu. That's why Isamu had smirky attitude because both of them knew who has the superior position and there was no need to demonstrate it further.

Except that Guld still had all his fighter's systems online, as opposed to just teh minimum needed to keep it in the air.

The INSTANT anything happened he would know, and be in full capacity to deal with it.

Which wouldn't matter at all and is quite irrelevant since Guld did not detect Isamu at all until he saw the YF-19 shadow.

Isamu shut almost all the YF-19's systems down SPECIFICALLY to minimize his visibility to sensors(specifically, the ones in the missiles on his tail).

He was running the flaps, and presumably the active stealth system since he wasn't showing up on radar and the 19 does not appear to have any passive stealth features.

Everything else was off to minimize his heat, RF, and whatever else they use for sensors profiles.

Isamu was smirky because he was friends with Guld. And now that Guld was sane again, Guld wasn't trying to kill him.

...

Or just because he was an established loon.

Again, you're just doing some wishful thinking. Isamu had the superior position. Both of them know that when Guld finally noticed the YF-19's shadow.

Wishful thinking? They SAID he turned everything off.

Edited August 3, 2005 by JB0

[treatment]

*sigh*

JB0, I think you need to really need to re-watch Plus.

Again.

So that you don't make mistakes such as saying the YF-21 never getting hit by the X9 as "fact" or missing the scoreboard, etc etc.

All of your counterpoints are pretty much wild speculations and wild guesses to try to argue about Isamu's or Guld's abilities or even the X9. Therefore, they are all null and void.

Re-watch Plus. For your sake.

[JB0]

*sigh*

JB0, I think you need to really need to re-watch Plus.

Again. 

So that you don't make mistakes such as saying the YF-21 never getting hit by the X9 as "fact" or missing the scoreboard,  etc etc. 

All of your counterpoints are pretty much wild speculations and wild guesses to try to argue about Isamu's or Guld's abilities or even the X9.  Therefore, they are all null and void.

Re-watch Plus. For your sake.

316916[/snapback]

The vast majority of it is merely applying logic or taking the show at face value.

When I said the YF-21 didn't get hit by the X9, I meant BEFORE Isamu and Guld split off. You know, when the X9 could reasonably be expected to attack both of them as opposed to JUST the plane trying to kill it.

If I meant over the entire sequence, I could say Custer was never beat by Jackson, so clearly Custer is a better strategist than "Stonewall" Jackson.

The scoreboard is often cited in Plus debates(to prove the YF-19 is the bette rplane, usually), but it has no real context attached to it. The scale of the bars is totally unknown, as is what they're actually measuring.

Bigger bars could be good. Smaller bars could be good. Centered bars could be good.

A set increment could be an exponential movement, of either increasingly smaller or increasingly larger steps. Or a linear scale.

The main thing it shows, in my opinion, is that Isamu is a wilder pilot than Guld.

[KingNor]

they seemed evenly matched to me.