Robotech and HG license debates

[nemesis120]

Is it just me or they are saying that BW doesn't want stuff to be distributed internationally yet it's been distributed in France? Doesn't that seem a bit hypocritical? And, for what everyone has to say, on RT.com when the release was announced, they only used the SDF Macross logo. Not the Macross 7 logo.

[SuperOstrich]

Since BW is trying to fight for it's ownership of Macross derivatives, they simply COULDN'T let this get released with HG's name on it. Letting it slip by would weaken thier legal stance considerably. Since we're 100% certain they don't want HG involved in the sequels they had no hand in, is this really surprising? It's kind of disappointing for the fans, but BW is doing what they feel they must. We have no say in it, and we can't assume to know how BW should run their business.

I'm not going to sit here and pretend to know the situation between HG, BW, and TokyoPop as BoK has in his rambling. He has no inside information, yet blames BW already. Even if BW did pull the plug, do we even know for certain that BW was involved in this release at all? Perhaps TokyoPop tried to bypass them completely and go through HG directly. We simply don't know.

[Skull Leader]

bankofkev posted the below content at robotech.com

Blah, blah, blah, blah.

Bankofkev

So...to sum up, HG is a benevolent corproate entity that selflessly gives it's all to provide the fans what they want, but as usual those greedy ogres at BW have derailed Trash just because they're bad, bad men.

Come on, this is the same uber-biased garbage he's been peddling here since before I stopped lurking and joined. Without any facts (at least, none that are presented in his ramblings) he paints BW as the usual baddies that rain on HG's big happy Robo-parade. Hey, what if HG had no business getting a piece of the action for Trash to begin with?

Well, first of all, that entire statement of Bankie's is flawed because it's BASED off of his idea that this is all Big Wests fault. He has no proof to back that up. We here on the other side of the chess board do not always see everything that goes on. What's more, Bankie fails to realize that BW's "silence" isn't such a bad thing... BW doesn't go making announcements that blow sunshine up people's asses (*coughcoughHGcoughcough*). In fact, they say precious little at all. That's because they don't feel the need to make every little announcement to the public. If anything, it's HG's bad for announcing the American release before they KNEW they had it in the bag... and it's not the first time it's happened (they keep promising a new series... they've been doing it for a couple of years now)

BW's silence isn't such a new thing, or even something to worry over. In all honesty I've never even read a statement that was posted by a PR person from BW. If something needs to be said or done, then BW does it and doesn't bullshit over who's right it is. *IF* in fact they are the ones withholding M7trash from seeing a stateside release, I'm sure they have good reason. I wouldn't want to deal with the leeches at HG either, they have no cut in M7s profit.

Also, HG hyped up M7trash as a super-hot manga that most fans absolutely could not live without.... while I enjoy it as much as any other M7 fan, I'm fairly certain this wasn't such a hot manga in Japan... but I could be wrong. If that is the case, BW doesn't have a lot to loose if they opt NOT to market that in the US.

[j_wong00]

For about a second I considered answering his post.

But then I figured it wasn't worth my time.

As the old saying goes: "Never argue with an idiot; they drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience."

Edit: Banky likes to call us "Macross Purists", maybe we should nickname him the "Robotech Propagandist"... then again, that would just give him credence.

Edited October 1, 2003 by j_wong00

[Basara Nekki]

As big a Macross 7 fan as I am, I would rather watch Galleger than see a HG logo/credit anywhere near Trash or any other M7 stuff. It's bad enough that HG owns the rights to the actual SDF animation, but if they started ripping off the dirivatives...

[the white drew carey]

What BoK is clearly ignoring (besides the obvious mention that M7-Trash is available in France) is that BigWest hasn't blown their chance to spread into the international market.

...or is he completely forgetting the legitimate releases of MacII and Mac+?

Jemstone- On a side note, I think BoK is still technically "banned" here. But I could be wrong.

[ewilen]

All this is fine if BW and its allies (Bandai, Yamato) are quietly preparing their legal case in the U.S. and think they can prevail. But otherwise, if HG has the legal rights--or, what amounts to nearly the same thing, if BW et. al. don't intend to spend the resources it will take to clarify HG's rights, then it would be hard to fathom why they wouldn't either deal directly with HG or tacitly accept a status quo where licensees pay BW and HG separately.

I suppose in a way that could be taken as a sign that BW will eventually take action, perhaps in conjunction with international release of Macross Zero. (Lebhead reports that such a release is rumored, but he wouldn't disclose his source when I asked over at his forums.) Or BW & Bandai are keeping their options open and maneuvering for maximum leverage in negotiations with HG over an M0 release. Consider: they could offer HG what they consider a fair cut. If HG doesn't accept, BW has two options which could impact what we see in M0:

1) Include the VF-1 in the story, which would be an open challenge to a court battle.

2) Exclude the VF-1 (at least in an edited international version--M0 The Movie, anyone?), which would be a more nuanced approach, since it would make HG's case harder.

If (1) is a battering ram, (2) is a wedge.

Either way, if M0 succeeds artistically, it raises the stakes and increases the value of what can be shared in an agreement and what can be lost in court.

[JELEINEN]

bankofkev posted the below content at robotech.com

Though I may have some disagreement with some of what he says in this (namely overlooking Harmony Gold's faults in this mess), I think there is some validity to it.

<quote snipped>

Sorry man, but if I were feeling generous, I'd say this guy is really naive of how the law and intellectual property work in the US. Most likely I'd just say he's full of s**t. SuperO is right. BW giving up any ground is tantamount to giving up the whole field. If they are the ones who pulled the plug on the project, they did it for sound legal reasoning and not just to rain on everyone's parade.

[tom64ss]

bankofkev posted the below content at robotech.com

Though I may have some disagreement with some of what he says in this (namely overlooking Harmony Gold's faults in this mess), I think there is some validity to it.

<quote snipped>

Sorry man, but if I were feeling generous, I'd say this guy is really naive of how the law and intellectual property work in the US. Most likely I'd just say he's full of s**t. SuperO is right. BW giving up any ground is tantamount to giving up the whole field. If they are the ones who pulled the plug on the project, they did it for sound legal reasoning and not just to rain on everyone's parade.

Hey, this is the same guy who tried to tell justvinnie, who's job it is to work on a cure for anthrax, that a cure already existed. He has proven more often than not that he has no idea what he's talking about. I wouldn't worry to much about what he wrote. Anyone who's had any experience with his ramblings, already know he's full o' shite.

[muswp1]

Ok, I have a few things to say here (actually more than a few but I won't get vulgar)

1) It was so nice of bankofkev to call me a Macross Purist when he knows damn well I am not. It was also nice of him to slice off most of my post including what I was actually talking about. I am so tempted to login over a Robotech.com (I am still a member there) and let that idiot have it.

2) So Big West blew their chance at the inernational market because Harmony Gold cancelled something??? I bet bankofkev has memory loss in regards to all the international releases of DYRL ( a few different times), Macross 2 and Macross Plus. I think the only Macross title that hasn't had international release in Macross 7.

3) It would be so nice of him to actually PROVE his remarks about us to our faces, not make snide comments about us in a forum that most MW members don't give a rats ass about.

[Apollo Leader]

Steve Yun has now admitted that Tokyo Pop had originally picked up its rights from Big West (of course neither Harmony Gold or Tokyo Pop gave Big West any credit in any of their press releases):

http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/re...1704&forumid=12

As for bankofkev's thoughts and opinions on his post at rt.com, I basically agree that Big West needs to take more of an innitiative in getting all things that are Macross out on the market outside of Japan. Considering that Harmony Gold/Tatsunoko already have a proven stake in Macross (the TV series that is), it may end up requiring some additional negotiations outside of the lawsuit. Then again, I would really like to see the carpet pulled from out under Harmony Gold's feet.

[bsu legato]

Steve Yun has now admitted that Tokyo Pop had originally picked up its rights from Big West (of course neither Harmony Gold or Tokyo Pop gave Big West any credit in any of their press releases)

Interesting. I can't say I'm too surprised that BW would be "forgotten" in the TP/HG press releases. But do we really know that BW was the one who pulled the plug? Even if they did, who's to say that they were in the wrong to kill the deal once HG got their greasy hands on the deal. Just because HG is willing to accept credit and revenue from Trash 7 does not mean that they were entitled to it.

[Jemstone]

Jemstone- On a side note, I think BoK is still technically "banned" here. But I could be wrong.

wrylac and even Ben-Man were notable "banned" persons who seem to be doing quite well here these days. <_<

[the white drew carey]

Jemstone- On a side note, I think BoK is still technically "banned" here. But I could be wrong.

wrylac and even Ben-Man were notable "banned" persons who seem to be doing quite well here these days.

The loophole in Dogmatic law (ie- new forums) allowed them to get back in.

The Mods stated they're going to keep a close eye on all who have returned, and won't give them much, if any, leeway.

I thought I heard someone mention that BoK knew about this, but decided to be a better person and simply insult us from over at RT.com instead of coming over here...

[Jemstone]

The loophole in Dogmatic law (ie- new forums) allowed them to get back in.

The Mods stated they're going to keep a close eye on all who have returned, and won't give them much, if any, leeway.

I thought I heard someone mention that BoK knew about this, but decided to be a better person and simply insult us from over at RT.com instead of coming over here... 

Yes, I know. That's why he's such a COWARD. Hell, he could have posted this at Arcadia but I suppose there's no Steve Yun to protect his dumb ass there so he put at RT.com.

EDIT TO YOU KNOW WHO LURKING:

Don't bother going to Arcadia now after I've mentioned it!

Edited October 2, 2003 by Jemstone

[bsu legato]

Plus he has all of his bootlicking sycophants there who blindly treat his word as gospel. <_

[the white drew carey]

Arcadia? Never heard of it.

Wasn't there a "Warzone in Exile" forum for RT.com'ers called Battlefield? What happened to that?

[muswp1]

The loophole in Dogmatic law (ie- new forums) allowed them to get back in.

The Mods stated they're going to keep a close eye on all who have returned, and won't give them much, if any, leeway.

I thought I heard someone mention that BoK knew about this, but decided to be a better person and simply insult us from over at RT.com instead of coming over here... 

Yes, I know. That's why he's such a COWARD. Hell, he could have posted this at Arcadia but I suppose there's no Steve Yun to protect his dumb ass there so he put at RT.com.

EDIT TO YOU KNOW WHO LURKING:

Don't bother going to Arcadia now after I've mentioned it!

BoK actually has an active membership (BankofKev, established on August 26, I think the other bankofkev profile was proven to be a fake), but has no posts.

[Jemstone]

Arcadia? Never heard of it.

Wasn't there a "Warzone in Exile" forum for RT.com'ers called Battlefield? What happened to that?

Alpha pulled the plug on the Battlefield after some personal issues with a poster and Arcadia is the much improved replacement of the Battlefield (sans Alpha) and more of an anti-Battlefield. Ask Max or Apollo for the link if you are really interested in visiting. For the life of me I can't recommend it as it may open a whole new can of worms.

BoK actually has an active membership (BankofKev, established on August 26, I think the other bankofkev profile was proven to be a fake), but has no posts.

I spoke to BoK at the Arcadia board. It does not seem like he has even reregistered here at MW.

Edited October 2, 2003 by Jemstone

[Yamato Lover]

wrylac and even Ben-Man were notable "banned" persons who seem to be doing quite well here these days.

Yeah, because a certain Meltran is no longer a MW member to instigate arguements with them.

[nemesis120]

The loophole in Dogmatic law (ie- new forums) allowed them to get back in.

The Mods stated they're going to keep a close eye on all who have returned, and won't give them much, if any, leeway.

I thought I heard someone mention that BoK knew about this, but decided to be a better person and simply insult us from over at RT.com instead of coming over here... 

Yes, I know. That's why he's such a COWARD. Hell, he could have posted this at Arcadia but I suppose there's no Steve Yun to protect his dumb ass there so he put at RT.com.

EDIT TO YOU KNOW WHO LURKING:

Don't bother going to Arcadia now after I've mentioned it!

BoK actually has an active membership (BankofKev, established on August 26, I think the other bankofkev profile was proven to be a fake), but has no posts.

There's also someone named Steve Yun here (again, with no posts).

[Yamato Lover]

Yahoo! Japan News Article

It was started as a thread in the TV/Movies section, but it looks like a judgement has been reached in the appeal of the Tatsunoko/Big West copyright case. After almost 9 months of waiting, the very same ruling has been reached in the appeal that was reached back in January:

Tatsunoko/HG = SDF Macross TV series only

Big West = Line art, characters, etc.

So basically, nothing has changed. The wait continues... <_<

[Jemstone]

wrylac and even Ben-Man were notable "banned" persons who seem to be doing quite well here these days. 

Yeah, because a certain Meltran is no longer a MW member to instigate arguements with them.

Ben-Man aka DestroidsRage never had any problems with Quad. His banning was for other reasons. Not everything negative revolves around hate for Robotech or Quad.

[Yamato Lover]

wrylac and even Ben-Man were notable "banned" persons who seem to be doing quite well here these days. 

Yeah, because a certain Meltran is no longer a MW member to instigate arguements with them.

Ben-Man aka DestroidsRage never had any problems with Quad. His banning was for other reasons. Not everything negative revolves around hate for Robotech or Quad.

Oh, I know that.

I had nothing against Quad or her arguments either. I was just being funny (or a feeble attempt at funny)

[Pat Payne]

Just a thought on the Animeigo announcement (which is making me want to find a legit, non-modchipped region-free player even more :angry ) :

The way Robert Woodhead was phrasing it was that it may have been not just the HG/BW thing (althiough that's not a help), but companies here stateside that are mucking up the works. I'm thinking (and it's probably too optimistic right now) that this might be a staring contest. All sides know that there is a significant number of anime fans who are chomping at the bit for a R1 release of DYRL in the States. They also know that getting into heavy litigation over the movie could financially be akin to running around their homes with blowtorches. Therefore, they quite possibly could be waiting it out until one side blinks and tries to release it -- at which point, the hammer -- or gives up and relinquishes their share of a license that is, at this moment, a net money drain (To paraphrase an old Chinese warlord: Having the rights to a good movie and not releasing it is like having a beautiful silk robe and not wearing it in public--who's to know?).

Edited October 2, 2003 by Pat Payne

[ewilen]

From the thread on the Yahoo news story, Pat Payne wrote

The underlying designs reside with Studio Nue/Big West. There is wiggle room for Tat and HG to argue for merchandising rights ONLY to designs that actually appeared in SDFM TV. DYRL, M+, M7, M0 designs may be substantially different enough to be considered new designs, but if it appeared in any of the other programs IN THE EXACT FORM THAT IT APPEARED IN THE ORIGINAL TV SERIES they could raise a stink, although it would probably get them nowhere.

Although Tatsunoko & HG may have merchandising rights to designs that appeared in SDFM TV, I wonder if, conversely, they have no rights to "original" derivatives of their own. E.g., I wonder if Bandai/BW will be able to turn the tables on HG and argue that the YF-1R is an illegal infringement due to its being a new product based on the existing VF-1 design (especially if it has the UN Insignia). Same goes for any Sentinels-type sequels. And what about the fact that Matsushiro owns the patent on the original transformable valkyrie design, which was essentially copied by the Bandai HCM and Toynami MPC? I assume something has been worked out in Japan between the various toy/model makers. (And I'm guessing Matsushiro's patent is now owned by someone like Bandai or Big West...) But prior to the MPC, all non-import transforming Valks were actually made by Bandai & Matsushiro (i.e., the Joke Machines sold by Matchbox, and of course Jetfire). Is the patent expired?

Do the current run of Robotech comic book adaptations use the UN insignia?

Apologies if any of this has already been addressed in the past.

Edited October 2, 2003 by ewilen

[the white drew carey]

I think that Bandai did buy the design off of Matsuhiro.

As to derivitives? IIRC, the memorandum (the first thing ruled upon in the courts) did actually state that Tatsunoko cannot make derivitives. Speculation persists (and makes a good argument) that this is why the RT II: Sentinels characters are look different enough as to not be considered derivitives.

[nemesis120]

From the thread on the Yahoo news story, Pat Payne wrote

The underlying designs reside with Studio Nue/Big West. There is wiggle room for Tat and HG to argue for merchandising rights ONLY to designs that actually appeared in SDFM TV. DYRL, M+, M7, M0 designs may be substantially different enough to be considered new designs, but if it appeared in any of the other programs IN THE EXACT FORM THAT IT APPEARED IN THE ORIGINAL TV SERIES they could raise a stink, although it would probably get them nowhere.

Although Tatsunoko & HG may have merchandising rights to designs that appeared in SDFM TV, I wonder if, conversely, they have no rights to "original" derivatives of their own. E.g., I wonder if Bandai/BW will be able to turn the tables on HG and argue that the YF-1R is an illegal infringement due to its being a new product based on the existing VF-1 design (especially if it has the UN Insignia). Same goes for any Sentinels-type sequels. And what about the fact that Matsushiro owns the patent on the original transformable valkyrie design, which was essentially copied by the Bandai HCM and Toynami MPC? I assume something has been worked out in Japan between the various toy/model makers. (And I'm guessing Matsushiro's patent is now owned by someone like Bandai or Big West...) But prior to the MPC, all non-import transforming Valks were actually made by Bandai & Matsushiro (i.e., the Joke Machines sold by Matchbox, and of course Jetfire). Is the patent expired?

Do the current run of Robotech comic book adaptations use the UN insignia?

Apologies if any of this has already been addressed in the past.

Actually, the YF-1R appears, so that could be considered legitimate. However, the Sentinels raises a question. And Bandai could probably have a good reason to sue Toynami over their Valkyrie designs for copyright infringement. That's why there wasn't a transformable veritech during the 80s because of Jetfire, outside of the JMs, which were licensed from Bandai.

[Apollo Leader]

I spoke to BoK at the Arcadia board. It does not seem like he has even reregistered here at MW.

I have swapped a few PM's with bankofkev (BankofKev - someone apparently stole his name) a few weeks ago so he is deffinitely here. I know that he currently isn't interested in posting here. Considering how things devolved last time I couldn't really blame him, but at the same time, though, he needs to learn how to better conduct himself on this board.

[Jemstone]

I spoke to BoK at the Arcadia board.  It does not seem like he has even reregistered here at MW.

I have swapped a few PM's with bankofkev (BankofKev - someone apparently stole his name) a few weeks ago so he is deffinitely here. I know that he currently isn't interested in posting here. Considering how things devolved last time I couldn't really blame him, but at the same time, though, he needs to learn how to better conduct himself on this board.

Then he does not have a case for whatever he's spewing at RT.com. He says stuff like he wants to know what we think about his thoughts on OUR posts over here! Why doesn't he just post his thoughts over here? Is it that difficult for him to behave himself? On top of that he's purposely calling my name out on RT.com full well knowing a I can't reply. He is the reason I was banned over there for something I didn't even say to him. So I don't see what he's trying to accomplish with that chicken post of his. Why should we move the playing field to his home field when his issues are with what we have said here? That's why I think this is just a way for him to start more trouble but to cover his butt in the process because we can all easily be weeded out at RT.com.

What happened last time was entirely his fault and own doing. He could take some serious pointers from wrylac who's on his side yet not cowering on another website. He can't claim he'll be booted just because of who he is. If anything happens it's because of what he says.

Edited October 2, 2003 by Jemstone

[ewilen]

Actually, the YF-1R appears, so that could be considered legitimate.

Nope, the YF-1R is a Robotech innovation. You may be thinking of the YF's from Macross Plus.

The YF-1R appears in Battlecry and Toynami made a battroid toy of it. It has a hexagonal faceplace and a combination of the VF-1J and VF-1A head lasers (i.e., two on the sides, one in the middle). There's a closeup at the bottom of this page:

http://www.menet.umn.edu/~ngo/robotech_s-p...se_v2_vf-1.html

[Abombz!!]

Actually, the YF-1R appears, so that could be considered legitimate.

Nope, the YF-1R is a Robotech innovation. You may be thinking of the YF's from Macross Plus.

The YF-1R appears in Battlecry and Toynami made a battroid toy of it. It has a hexagonal faceplace and a combination of the VF-1J and VF-1A head lasers (i.e., two on the sides, one in the middle). There's a closeup at the bottom of this page:

http://www.menet.umn.edu/~ngo/robotech_s-p...se_v2_vf-1.html

The YF1R is an animation mistake that is in one of the late SDF macross episodes.

[Druna Skass]

Do the current run of Robotech comic book adaptations use the UN insignia?

Yeah they sure do, and they even have a derivative of the emblem there too. They too the real world UN flag and took out the globe and replaced it with the kite.

Now are they allowed to do that?

[the white drew carey]

The YF1R is an animation mistake that is in one of the late SDF macross episodes.

Actually, the animation mistake is simply a VF-1A with two small lasers coming off of the side. The YV-1R as interpreted by Tommy Yune and HG is a derivitive because they have taken creative license and made their own version of that mistake.

The "mistake" VF-1A and the YF-1R are clearly different heads, albeit on the same theme.

[uminoken]

After all we have seen that Big West will do nothing to help Tokyopop. Thin I’m wrong? Well does anyone remember Su-----ds in 2002?

Well no one was going to rake in millions off Macross 7 Trash. However this deal could have been a bridge for future deals that could have brought more products over (B---ai, Ya---to, Ha----ga, et. al.) which would have brought millions for Big West. Now its gone….

Want to ask two things (the first of which may be a newbie question but here goes)

1 - Are the posts on rt.com edited to leave out the names of the manufacturing companies?!?! I can understand no posting of websites to obtain bootleg items, but editing a company name? (Like anyone couldn't figure the names out) Doesn't sound like the kind of thing a certain "fluffy bunny of a fan friend" company (HG if ya couldn't tell by the dripping sarcasm) would do now does it?

2 - What ever happened to Sunwards anyhow? Any past thread I've missed?

I wish BW would take on HG in a court battle, there really is no case if you look at the facts