Robotech and HG license debates

[wrylac]

There's also been a few times turing that thread's life where no one posted to it for days if not even a week or two.

Actually, I'm wrong, it's probably that a thread got started in the Series forum as justvinnie's post says, I'll have to check there.

Edited September 16, 2003 by wrylac

[cwbrown]

ANN is no more or less ignorant to the facts than anyone here. However, I believe their information is more reliable because they don't appear to be biased to either side.

I think you're exaggerating the "HG lost everything" statement, although I can't remember exactly how it was presented. IIRC, they reported the court case decision and speculated that this PERHAPS meant HG may lose a great deal of power regarding the Macross franchise.

Here you go, SuperO:

Harmony Gold does not own Macross License - Japanese Courts rule

Our good friend Jason Gong has informed us of an ongoing legal litigation between Harmony Gold & Tatsunoko and Big West over the Macross License. Harmony Gold, which has always claimed exclusive ownership of the Macross License, has blocked the North American importation and release of Macross based merchandise in the past and licensed the Macross Anime to AnimEigo for DVD release.

However a recent Japanese ruling states that Tatsunoko, the Japanese company that originally sold the Macross license to Harmony Gold, did not own the Macross license in the first place and was never in any position to sell that license to Harmony Gold. According to the ruling Big West, the original creators of Macross, own the international rights. Based on this ruling Big West has obtained an injuction barring Harmony Gold from selling or licensing further Macross merchandise.

The Robotech "Macross Saga", which is based on Macross, is in no way affected by these ongoing legal matters.

Japanese Source: headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20020226-00002068-mai-soci

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Absolutely terrible, piss poor, unconscionable (sp?) reporting, IMHO. Got all the facts wrong, and other than the edit, which said that TMS was not affected, said that HG had nothing. No mention of "perhaps" whatsoever. Especially the injunction against HG. HG wasn't even a party to the suit. And this article cause days of confusion, anger, cheering, and angst on these boards.

And this article caused more of "HG is a bunch of liars" when it released its own press release saying that it was not affected by the decision because it was in Japan and HG was not a party. Even the "Japanese source" says nothing other than BW won.

[wrylac]

If you like, take a gander at the thread that inspired the ANN article...

Sad Legal News...

[Apollo Leader]

ANN is no more or less ignorant to the facts than anyone here. However, I believe their information is more reliable because they don't appear to be biased to either side.

I think you're exaggerating the "HG lost everything" statement, although I can't remember exactly how it was presented. IIRC, they reported the court case decision and speculated that this PERHAPS meant HG may lose a great deal of power regarding the Macross franchise.

Here you go, SuperO:

Harmony Gold does not own Macross License - Japanese Courts rule

Our good friend Jason Gong has informed us of an ongoing legal litigation between Harmony Gold & Tatsunoko and Big West over the Macross License. Harmony Gold, which has always claimed exclusive ownership of the Macross License, has blocked the North American importation and release of Macross based merchandise in the past and licensed the Macross Anime to AnimEigo for DVD release.

However a recent Japanese ruling states that Tatsunoko, the Japanese company that originally sold the Macross license to Harmony Gold, did not own the Macross license in the first place and was never in any position to sell that license to Harmony Gold. According to the ruling Big West, the original creators of Macross, own the international rights. Based on this ruling Big West has obtained an injuction barring Harmony Gold from selling or licensing further Macross merchandise.

The Robotech "Macross Saga", which is based on Macross, is in no way affected by these ongoing legal matters.

Japanese Source: headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20020226-00002068-mai-soci

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Absolutely terrible, piss poor, unconscionable (sp?) reporting, IMHO. Got all the facts wrong, and other than the edit, which said that TMS was not affected, said that HG had nothing. No mention of "perhaps" whatsoever. Especially the injunction against HG. HG wasn't even a party to the suit. And this article cause days of confusion, anger, cheering, and angst on these boards.

And this article caused more of "HG is a bunch of liars" when it released its own press release saying that it was not affected by the decision because it was in Japan and HG was not a party. Even the "Japanese source" says nothing other than BW won.

One thing you Harmony Gold defenders have never noticed is that after Toynami's "Macross Super Poseables" were released as an exclusive off of rt.com during March of 2002, Harmony Gold has done NOTHING additional with it so called license or rights to the Macross TV series... otherwise nothing else has come out with the SDF Macross logo, the Valkyrie name, the original Japanese characters names, etc.... it's just been the "Macross Saga" that's been getting all the props and merchandise.

The Feb. 2002 ruling from Tokyo DID have an effect on Harmony Gold. Furthermore, HG's failure to bring things full circle with the Valkyrie Exchange, Blasto Toys, et al is further evidence of HG's weak standing.

[1st Border Red Devil]

One thing you Harmony Gold defenders have never noticed is that after Toynami's "Macross Super Poseables" were released as an exclusive off of rt.com during March of 2002, Harmony Gold has done NOTHING additional with it so called license or rights to the Macross TV series... otherwise nothing else has come out with the SDF Macross logo, the Valkyrie name, the original Japanese characters names, etc.... it's just been the "Macross Saga" that's been getting all the props and merchandise.

Well...we dont know why...nor does anyone else. It could be that the Macross-only name didnt sell as well as Robotech.

[justvinnie]

Also, when that article popped up the next day I remember saying to myself this is point by point what was on the MW message boards yesterday.

Heh, are you serious? I think you're seeing things the way you want to see them.

Interesting, that whole days posts were deleted but justvinnie made this comment:

Dated Jan. 21, 2003

Seems like someone at ANN reads MacrossWorld. The Jan 20th ruling article was almost a direct copy of the thread in the Series forum. At least someone is paying attention.

Link

Wow, I'm famous for 5 minutes and no one even bothers to tell me!

And yes, I have very strong suspicions that whoever wrote the article for ANN had simply read the thread on MW. There was an entire chuck of one of my post worded slightly different. In the ends what better source to go to (if not a little bias) than the rabid fans who knows the ins and outs of everything that public?

vinnie

[wrylac]

One thing you Harmony Gold defenders have never noticed is that after Toynami's "Macross Super Poseables" were released as an exclusive off of rt.com during March of 2002, Harmony Gold has done NOTHING additional with it so called license or rights to the Macross TV series... otherwise nothing else has come out with the SDF Macross logo, the Valkyrie name, the original Japanese characters names, etc.... it's just been the "Macross Saga" that's been getting all the props and merchandise.

The Feb. 2002 ruling from Tokyo DID have an effect on Harmony Gold. Furthermore, HG's failure to bring things full circle with the Valkyrie Exchange, Blasto Toys, et al is further evidence of HG's weak standing.

You mean aside from granting TokyoPop the right to release Macross 7 Trash?

It could also be that HG is trying to get BW to finally cooperate on the Japanese merchandise. What better way to introduce Macross toys than with a HG sanctioned Yamato or Bandai? There's a ton of merchandise in Japan that I'm sure HG would love to get their hands on. That way they wouldn't have to spend too much time developing merchandise.

To clarify, in no way do I mean to say that BW wouldn't be fairly compensated for the work they've done.

[Radd]

You mean aside from granting TokyoPop the right to release Macross 7 Trash?

It could also be that HG is trying to get BW to finally cooperate on the Japanese merchandise. What better way to introduce Macross toys than with a HG sanctioned Yamato or Bandai? There's a ton of merchandise in Japan that I'm sure HG would love to get their hands on. That way they wouldn't have to spend too much time developing merchandise.

To clarify, in no way do I mean to say that BW wouldn't be fairly compensated for the work they've done.

Well, we're still not really clear on the story behind the Macross 7 Trash licensing. Too early to draw any solid conclusions as to just who went to who and what motivated them to do so. It'll be interesting to find out, though.

[cwbrown]

Apollo, not to be mean, but you pulled a serious logical fallacy by bringing up what HG has done (I just can't remember the name). <_<

The focus of the discussion was on the competence of ANN in relation to reporting this series of cases.

So, my question to you: Has ANN been competent and/or reliable when reporting this series of cases? My argument is a resounding "no". And I use that initial article as my evidence for their shoddy work. Therefore, I do not believe anyone (on either side) should be quoting ANN for any information whatsoever. Do you agree or disagree?

[the white drew carey]

You mean aside from granting TokyoPop the right to release Macross 7 Trash?

It could also be that HG is trying to get BW to finally cooperate on the Japanese merchandise. What better way to introduce Macross toys than with a HG sanctioned Yamato or Bandai? There's a ton of merchandise in Japan that I'm sure HG would love to get their hands on. That way they wouldn't have to spend too much time developing merchandise.

To clarify, in no way do I mean to say that BW wouldn't be fairly compensated for the work they've done.

OK- here's the problem with this whole Macross 7 Trash thing:

1) BigWest, being a business and all, will expect to be paid a licensing fee for Macross 7 Trash.

2) HG has clearly stated, over and over, that they own the international rights (outside of Japan) to Macross and that's that.

Now, I highly doubt that BigWest will just give away the Trash license, and I sincerely doubt that HG will actually pay for it. If HG does pay for it, that could be seen as an admission that they were lying about owning all of the rights because no company in their right mind would pay for something they already legally own.

This goes for all Macross-related merchandise as well.

1st BRD- Maybe they didn't sell well because no one wanted to pay an exhorbant amount of money for what was, essentially, the same crappy Super-Poseable. AnimeIgo's release of the TV Series sold extremely well. One would think that it sold well enough that HG would consider releasing other Macross titles. You know, because they DO happen to own the rights to all of them, after all.

[wrylac]

You mean aside from granting TokyoPop the right to release Macross 7 Trash?

It could also be that HG is trying to get BW to finally cooperate on the Japanese merchandise.  What better way to introduce Macross toys than with a HG sanctioned Yamato or Bandai?  There's a ton of merchandise in Japan that I'm sure HG would love to get their hands on.  That way they wouldn't have to spend too much time developing merchandise.

To clarify, in no way do I mean to say that BW wouldn't be fairly compensated for the work they've done.

OK- here's the problem with this whole Macross 7 Trash thing:

1) BigWest, being a business and all, will expect to be paid a licensing fee for Macross 7 Trash.

2) HG has clearly stated, over and over, that they own the international rights (outside of Japan) to Macross and that's that.

Now, I highly doubt that BigWest will just give away the Trash license, and I sincerely doubt that HG will actually pay for it. If HG does pay for it, that could be seen as an admission that they were lying about owning all of the rights because no company in their right mind would pay for something they already legally own.

This goes for all Macross-related merchandise as well.

1st BRD- Maybe they didn't sell well because no one wanted to pay an exhorbant amount of money for what was, essentially, the same crappy Super-Poseable. AnimeIgo's release of the TV Series sold extremely well. One would think that it sold well enough that HG would consider releasing other Macross titles. You know, because they DO happen to own the rights to all of them, after all.

I thought it was pretty well accepted that TPop had gotten approval from BW and then approval from HG. Meaning BW was getting paid for Trash. That's one way it could happen for a lot of the merchandise.

Another way would be for HG to pay BW for the different merchandise items and license it out to some one to produce. I don't know where you get the idea that BW wouldn't be compensated. There's no conflict with HG's claim and that idea. Even the Feb02 ruling says that TP need to develope the merchandise they sold overseas, nothing about outright ownership of any merchandise developed. I've not seen HG refuse to include BW in merchandise developement. The easiest way to develope overseas merchandise would be to just pay to be able to use merchandise made for the Japanese market.

[the white drew carey]

I thought it was pretty well accepted that TPop had gotten approval from BW and then approval from HG.  Meaning BW was getting paid for Trash.  That's one way it could happen for a lot of the merchandise.

Well accepting by you. But not by me.

No offense, Wrylac, but the only evidence we have that HG has given it's permission is through your own words when you related the discussion you had with Alan Letz (was it him) at the convention.

The other story is from someone else who asked on the rt.com boards if HG was involved and the answer was a simple "we are cooperating."

The only other evidence is TokyoPop's press release which was simply copied, word for word, on rt.com and not once, in actuality mentioned a direct business association between TokyoPop and HG.

Another way would be for HG to pay BW for the different merchandise items and license it out to some one to produce.  I don't know where you get the idea that BW wouldn't be compensated.  There's no conflict with HG's claim and that idea.  Even the Feb02 ruling says that TP need to develope the merchandise they sold overseas, nothing about outright ownership of any merchandise developed.  I've not seen HG refuse to include BW in merchandise developement.  The easiest way to develope overseas merchandise would be to just pay to be able to use merchandise made for the Japanese market.

The problem with this is the fact that HG has constantly claimed to own all of the rights. If they start paying BigWest them that's essentially saying that they were either A.) Wrong, or B.) Lying through their teeth.

HG doesn't want to pay to use merchandise for the Japanese market because that would cut into their profits. They're more than happy to say that they own all of the rights and then have Toynami pay them a licensing fee to produce toys.

Also, at this time, with the popularity of Anime and Manga, it would make more sense for BigWest to work with a company with whom they have a good relationship and also has a secure operation set up here in the states, companies like Bandai or Yamato.

I would think that if I were Bigwest (which I'm not), I'd rather want to work with them than with a company who is trying to usurp a franchise which I believe is mine and mine alone to deal with.

Edited September 16, 2003 by the white drew carey

[the white drew carey]

p.s.- I wrote an e-mail to TokyoPop asking what's up with Macross 7 Trash not being on their site anymore. I will post any response I get here when (and if) it arrives.

[Effect]

The "we are cooperating" came from me when I asked Tom Bateman in the RT.com chat about HG's role.

[the white drew carey]

Thanks, Effect! I couldna 'member 'oo 'twas!!!

(why the hell am I talking like that?)

[wrylac]

Well accepting by you. But not by me.

No offense, Wrylac, but the only evidence we have that HG has given it's permission is through your own words when you related the discussion you had with Alan Letz (was it him) at the convention.

The other story is from someone else who asked on the rt.com boards if HG was involved and the answer was a simple "we are cooperating."

The only other evidence is TokyoPop's press release which was simply copied, word for word, on rt.com and not once, in actuality mentioned a direct business association between TokyoPop and HG.

Another way would be for HG to pay BW for the different merchandise items and license it out to some one to produce.  I don't know where you get the idea that BW wouldn't be compensated.  There's no conflict with HG's claim and that idea.  Even the Feb02 ruling says that TP need to develope the merchandise they sold overseas, nothing about outright ownership of any merchandise developed.  I've not seen HG refuse to include BW in merchandise developement.  The easiest way to develope overseas merchandise would be to just pay to be able to use merchandise made for the Japanese market.

The problem with this is the fact that HG has constantly claimed to own all of the rights. If they start paying BigWest them that's essentially saying that they were either A.) Wrong, or B.) Lying through their teeth.

HG doesn't want to pay to use merchandise for the Japanese market because that would cut into their profits. They're more than happy to say that they own all of the rights and then have Toynami pay them a licensing fee to produce toys.

Also, at this time, with the popularity of Anime and Manga, it would make more sense for BigWest to work with a company with whom they have a good relationship and also has a secure operation set up here in the states, companies like Bandai or Yamato.

I would think that if I were Bigwest (which I'm not), I'd rather want to work with them than with a company who is trying to usurp a franchise which I believe is mine and mine alone to deal with.

Except that HG has already confirmed that their name would be on the Trash release.

Please tell me where I've been dishonest about anything so that you doubt my story.

There's no evidence to suggest that HG would refuse BW fair compensation for use of the shows and merchandise.

If I were BW I'd protect what I thought I own as far as I could and then do what it took to deal with the reality of the situation. I always assume both companies are just trying to do their best to protect their own interests. Which is why I try to focus on the validity of claims and not question the integrity of those involved.

Edited September 16, 2003 by wrylac

[cwbrown]

My one question about HG and BW is, why would HG need to pay BW any more if HG already owns, not licenses those rights. Maybe I totally misunderstand something that someone has said. But, it seems to me that TP already made its payment with the rights transfer, and that no more is owed. Unless HG still makes some payments to BW of which I am not aware.

Anyone with enlightenment?

[wrylac]

My one question about HG and BW is, why would HG need to pay BW any more if HG already owns, not licenses those rights. Maybe I totally misunderstand something that someone has said. But, it seems to me that TP already made its payment with the rights transfer, and that no more is owed. Unless HG still makes some payments to BW of which I am not aware.

Anyone with enlightenment?

I'm only suggesting that where BW deserves to be compensated HG would be more than willing to be fair with BW.

[j_wong00]

My one question about HG and BW is, why would HG need to pay BW any more if HG already owns, not licenses those rights. Maybe I totally misunderstand something that someone has said. But, it seems to me that TP already made its payment with the rights transfer, and that no more is owed. Unless HG still makes some payments to BW of which I am not aware.

Anyone with enlightenment?

Because HG DOESN'T own the entire macross series itself (again, this is the core of the whole debate in the first place, but I digress), but what Tatsunoko owns, which is "The right to sell the show overseas, and the general right to exploit merchandise." - according to the now infamous memo, which most of us here tend to agree that this is what was said.

Now the most recent ruling gave Tatsunoko ownership of the animation for SDF Macross, and the line art still recides with Big West/Studio Nue.

So, why would HG "own" the rest of Macross, when it has been quite clear that the only thing they bought (via TP) was the rights to the animation.

That being said, if HG want's to bring the other series over, they'd have to get in line with everyone else, and bid/buy them from BW.

On the topic of Mac7 Trash.

All HG said is that they were "cooperating" with it's release. Now, this is VERY ambigous, as it could very well mean that they are licensing it to Tpop. On the other hand, it could also mean that they're not doing anything to stop it; wether they have grounds to do so or not.

[the white drew carey]

Except that HG has already confirmed that their name would be on the Trash release.

Could you please point me to this evidence?

Besides TokyoPop's press release and Effect's online chat, the only thing I've ever heard is when you stated you asked Alan Letz if HG's name would be on it and you stated that he said: "Yes."

To my knowledge, there has not been any official confirmation from HG that they're name would be on it.

[wrylac]

Except that HG has already confirmed that their name would be on the Trash release.

Could you please point me to this evidence?

Besides TokyoPop's press release and Effect's online chat, the only thing I've ever heard is when you stated you asked Alan Letz if HG's name would be on it and you stated that he said: "Yes."

To my knowledge, there has not been any official confirmation from HG that they're name would be on it.

Oh, is that all... Geeze, I asked the question I got an answer, I mean Graham comes here all the time with Yamato info and his word is considered holy. I've got a personal direct experience with a HG employee who would know. If I were in a court of law I could testify to what that person said, do I need to put my hand on a Bible or something?

[bsu legato]

Jeeze wrylac, you'd think people don't trust you or something. <_

[cwbrown]

If I were in a court of law I could testify to what that person said....

Actually, you couldn't. It would be hearsay. Well, unless one of the exceptions applied, but we won't get into that.

[wrylac]

If I were in a court of law I could testify to what that person said....

Actually, you couldn't. It would be hearsay. Well, unless one of the exceptions applied, but we won't get into that.

Not to the truthfulness of the statement but, I could testify that he made the statement.

Edited September 16, 2003 by wrylac

[SuperOstrich]

Oh, is that all... Geeze, I asked the question I got an answer, I mean Graham comes here all the time with Yamato info and his word is considered holy. I've got a personal direct experience with a HG employee who would know. If I were in a court of law I could testify to what that person said, do I need to put my hand on a Bible or something?

The other problem is that HG has been known to be less than truthful. Nobody here believes them, even if we hear it from them directly.

[wrylac]

Oh, is that all...   Geeze, I asked the question I got an answer, I mean Graham comes here all the time with Yamato info and his word is considered holy.  I've got a personal direct experience with a HG employee who would know.  If I were in a court of law I could testify to what that person said, do I need to put my hand on a Bible or something?

The other problem is that HG has been known to be less than truthful. Nobody here believes them, even if we hear it from them directly.

Now why would they lie about whether or not their name is on a book? Despite all your guy's pessimism, it's pretty damn believable that they are putting their name on Trash.

[SuperOstrich]

I'm just saying!

[Apollo Leader]

Oh, is that all... Geeze, I asked the question I got an answer, I mean Graham comes here all the time with Yamato info and his word is considered holy. I've got a personal direct experience with a HG employee who would know. If I were in a court of law I could testify to what that person said, do I need to put my hand on a Bible or something?

Graham has had over 3 years of proving himself as a worthy and accurate source... notice how he is able to get all this information along with pictures and actual physical prototypes of Yamato's stuff?

[Abombz!!]

damn believable that they are putting their name on Trash.

LOL!!! This is so damn funny! And yet... so damn true.

[Apollo Leader]

My one question about HG and BW is, why would HG need to pay BW any more if HG already owns, not licenses those rights. Maybe I totally misunderstand something that someone has said. But, it seems to me that TP already made its payment with the rights transfer, and that no more is owed. Unless HG still makes some payments to BW of which I am not aware.

Anyone with enlightenment?

Simple, Big West would refuse to hand over any materials (ie. films, line art, reference materials, etc.). It can also tell companies like Bandai and Yamato not to play ball with HG (as in releasing their Valk toys under the Robotech name) because it would negatively effect their business relations... otherwise saying, Big West may no longer give licenses to any company that goes over its head to work with Harmony Gold. If some of us are correct, Toykyo Pop may have put itself in this situation and may have a difficult time directly getting any kind of future rights or exclusives from Big West.

[Roy Focker]

I would imagine any mention of HG in Tokoyo Pop's version of Macross 7 Trash would be something like this,

"And special thanks to Harmony Gold."

[wrylac]

damn believable that they are putting their name on Trash.

LOL!!! This is so damn funny! And yet... so damn true.

I knew someone would get a laugh out of that.

[wrylac]

I would imagine any mention of HG in Tokoyo Pop's version of Macross 7 Trash would be something like this,

"And special thanks to Harmony Gold."

No, my question was specific about having their logo on the cover.

[wrylac]

My one question about HG and BW is, why would HG need to pay BW any more if HG already owns, not licenses those rights.  Maybe I totally misunderstand something that someone has said.  But, it seems to me that TP already made its payment with the rights transfer, and that no more is owed.  Unless HG still makes some payments to BW of which I am not aware.

Anyone with enlightenment?

Simple, Big West would refuse to hand over any materials (ie. films, line art, reference materials, etc.). It can also tell companies like Bandai and Yamato not to play ball with HG (as in releasing their Valk toys under the Robotech name) because it would negatively effect their business relations... otherwise saying, Big West may no longer give licenses to any company that goes over its head to work with Harmony Gold. If some of us are correct, Toykyo Pop may have put itself in this situation and may have a difficult time directly getting any kind of future rights or exclusives from Big West.

I agree, this has been going on for sometime already.

[justvinnie]

My one question about HG and BW is, why would HG need to pay BW any more if HG already owns, not licenses those rights.  Maybe I totally misunderstand something that someone has said.  But, it seems to me that TP already made its payment with the rights transfer, and that no more is owed.  Unless HG still makes some payments to BW of which I am not aware.

Anyone with enlightenment?

Simple, Big West would refuse to hand over any materials (ie. films, line art, reference materials, etc.). It can also tell companies like Bandai and Yamato not to play ball with HG (as in releasing their Valk toys under the Robotech name) because it would negatively effect their business relations... otherwise saying, Big West may no longer give licenses to any company that goes over its head to work with Harmony Gold. If some of us are correct, Toykyo Pop may have put itself in this situation and may have a difficult time directly getting any kind of future rights or exclusives from Big West.

This what I believed all along. BW would not allow TokyoPop to put HG's logo on Macross & Trash because it would imply that HG had some right to any of the Macross derivatives. BW being the primary producer of Macross derivitives cannot allow that because A) they would lose total control over the franchise and B) cut into their profits. It's as simple as that. I don't beleive that TokyoPop will release M7 Trash any time soon. It may explain the removal of all promotional material of M7 Trash from their site.

vinnie