Robotech and HG license debates

[Bri]

hmm, from ANN, ( and this is just a quick comparison) Victor has done the music production for Gundam projects like Seed and 00 and also on ./hack and Planetes Not sure if that says anything but they have worked together before.

[azrael]

Hmmm...I dunno. How close are Bandai and Victor? Victor has handled pretty much all the music in Macross (except for Macross Generation and the Macross 7 and SDFM Radio Dramas...those were put out by Polydor) since the beginning, including Frontier.

I don't think the radio dramas are going to be that big of an issue since we're just talking about music licenses and that would fall with Victor.

[Gubaba]

hmm, from ANN, ( and this is just a quick comparison) Victor has done the music production for Gundam projects like Seed and 00 and also on ./hack and Planetes Not sure if that says anything but they have worked together before.

I think this may be a non-starter (for me at least) since I'm not sure WHY the music from Macross 7 was deemed to be so expensive, or why other shows aren't...

[Bri]

I think this may be a non-starter (for me at least) since I'm not sure WHY the music from Macross 7 was deemed to be so expensive, or why other shows aren't...

Fair enough, I guess we can't really confirm if it's the music rights or the legal issue that prevent a release outside of Japan. There is just not enough info to work with.

[Xeros]

Maybe they are thinking on putting Fire Bomber american on the Eng dub track...

[Jasonc]

OK, I told someone I'd put up that pic of the Gamma Fighter I had. It's the same pic that is floating around, just much bigger. Here it is.

At least it was something that would've given Robotech a degree of seperation, instead of still continuing to copy off of the original artist's work. Not too bad of a design, it looks like the VF-4 in a few ways at a quick glance.

[Seto Kaiba]

OK, I told someone I'd put up that pic of the Gamma Fighter I had. It's the same pic that is floating around, just much bigger. Here it is.

At least it was something that would've given Robotech a degree of seperation, instead of still continuing to copy off of the original artist's work. Not too bad of a design, it looks like the VF-4 in a few ways at a quick glance.

Is it just me, or does the top-down view of the Gamma fighter remind anyone else of that messenger ship from the Macross Galaxy fleet in Macross Frontier?

All in all, it looks a lot like a boxier, Mospeada-esque VF-4, with a stockier battroid mode. Nothing to write home about, and certainly not a 100% original design. Still, certainly a step in the right direction, trying to make something new that isn't pointlessly generic.

Edited April 28, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[RavenHawk]

Is it just me, or does the top-down view of the Gamma fighter remind anyone else of that messenger ship from the Macross Galaxy fleet in Macross Frontier?

All in all, it looks a lot like a boxier, Mospeada-esque VF-4, with a stockier battroid mode. Nothing to write home about, and certainly not a 100% original design. Still, certainly a step in the right direction, trying to make something new that isn't pointlessly generic.

Remember, this was for Shadow Chronicles, which was just Tommy taking unused or little-seen MOSPEADA designs, with tiny tweeks so that Tommy could claim them as his own.

The Gamma fighter is just a MOSPEADA AF-03C Combat (Robotech name is Conbat) with Tommy putting in a modified Legioss transformation.

Here's the Conbat pic from Robotech.com:

And MOSPEADA lineart:

[Freiflug88]

Maybe they are thinking on putting Fire Bomber american on the Eng dub track...

If they do they better use dual tracks and not pull the stunt they did with Season 1 of Code Geasse by releasing it first in English Dub only.

EDIT: If anything, Danger Girl: Kamakaze ought to have been an indicator of how bad Yune's attempts to "improve" Robotech would be... the plot revolves around a Japanese fascist group left over from World War 2 (though one with paradoxically Communist insignia) who stole a germanium-based antimatter bomb made during the final months before the Japanese surrender (you may now "WTF").

To me that actually sounds like it could be an interesting story that twists historical events. Japan actually had 2 atomic bomb projects during WW2, hence the inspiration for the antimatter bomb.

It's like a god damn police state over there...

While it is tempting to let the moderators ride roughshod over the Robotech fanbase, it just doesn't sit right with me to do nothing while good people are abused by idiots in authority they don't deserve. I know I'm not going to be able to change anything over there, I just pipe up every now and then to point out the lies, half-truths, and exaggerations when the bullshit starts getting too thick for me to stand.

I should have realized it sooner that you are indeed a conspiracy theorist, trying to reveal the truth behind the collapse of the twin tower cannons of the Macross on 9-11 to every Robotech fan you can.

I also mean it as a compliment in that you continue your personal crusade for the truth despite resistance from Hardcore RT fans and HG. I for one have been criticized as being crazy by many friends and family for my interest in trying to find the truth behind UFO and alien sightings.

Edited April 28, 2009 by Freiflug88

[Einherjar]

Whoever drew the Gamma Fighter at least showed it mid transformation, but I'm curious how the front side of the battroid was supposed to look like.

[Seto Kaiba]

To me that actually sounds like it could be an interesting story that twists historical events. Japan actually had 2 atomic bomb projects during WW2, hence the inspiration for the antimatter bomb.

To his credit, if he'd left out the sillyness of the "antimatter bomb" (it's got some technobabble that puts Star Trek's writers to shame) it actually would've been a reasonably decent miniseries. The overall feel is very "James Bond meets Indiana Jones".

Tommy can draw, but the man's writing leaves something to be desired.

I should have realized it sooner that you are indeed a conspiracy theorist, trying to reveal the truth behind the collapse of the twin tower cannons of the Macross on 9-11 to every Robotech fan you can.

I also mean it as a compliment in that you continue your personal crusade for the truth despite resistance from Hardcore RT fans and HG. I for one have been criticized as being crazy by many friends and family for my interest in trying to find the truth behind UFO and alien sightings.

Eh... I'm really really glad I waited until you finished editing that before I started posting a reply... I was about to start verbally tearing you several new orifices.

I suppose the die-hard Robotech fans do think I'm a conspiracy theorist, but so far none of them have attempted to tell me that I'm not very well-informed. It's not much of a conspiracy theory either... since something like 2/3 of the fans are well aware that Harmony Gold is grossly exaggerating Robotech's popularity, and Shadow Chronicles got them asking a lot of uncomfortable questions about Harmony Gold's ability to use Macross intellectual property in future productions. It's not like I'm on a crusade for the truth or anything... I just pop up whenever I see a Harmony Gold staffer living in that bizarre fantasy world they so often occupy and give them a nice sharp slap to return them to reality. I realize they're trying to make it appear that exciting things are happening, and that they're doing well (nobody wants to ride a sinking ship down), but I just don't think it's right to misrepresent the state of the franchise to the fans, and that is essentially what they're doing by claiming that Robotech is wildly popular and successful.

I guess if you're really looking for a label to apply to me, I'm the guy who points out the flaws in the crackpot conspiracy theories, not the conspiracy theorist.

Remember, this was for Shadow Chronicles, which was just Tommy taking unused or little-seen MOSPEADA designs, with tiny tweeks so that Tommy could claim them as his own.

The Gamma fighter is just a MOSPEADA AF-03C Combat (Robotech name is Conbat) with Tommy putting in a modified Legioss transformation.

Eh... you could make a case for it ether way. The Combat/Conbat and VF-X-4 already look fairly similar. He did do some fairly unimaginative new designs.

Edited April 28, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Jasonc]

Remember, this was for Shadow Chronicles, which was just Tommy taking unused or little-seen MOSPEADA designs, with tiny tweeks so that Tommy could claim them as his own.

The Gamma fighter is just a MOSPEADA AF-03C Combat (Robotech name is Conbat) with Tommy putting in a modified Legioss transformation.

Here's the Conbat pic from Robotech.com:

Ugh, yeah, you're right. It does look a lot like it. The good thing is that it is varied enough to where it appears like a somewhat original design. Agreed, Seto, on the MOSPEADA version of a VF-4 as well. I guess that can be a good thing for RT. It looks like many other things, but necessarily isn't. Oh well, I don't know what to say when an artist doesn't want to really be an artist, but a director. If he was just art director or something, he'd probably have some more credibility.

[terry the lone wolf]

A good review of Robotech that I found:

http://www.skooldays.com/categories/saturday/sa1419.htm

[Gubaba]

A good review of Robotech that I found:

http://www.skooldays.com/categories/saturday/sa1419.htm

Why "good"? It's more of a synopsis than a review...

[Freiflug88]

Eh... I'm really really glad I waited until you finished editing that before I started posting a reply... I was about to start verbally tearing you several new orifices.

Yeah, I figured I would get such a reaction after my initial post so I figured I would explain it now rather then later. The real definition of conspiracy is simply: a group of persons united in the goal of overthrowing an established power as opposed to a cabal which usurps an established power from within. Its thanks to media and political slander that the term "conspiracy theorists" has become associated with the misinformed crackpots that you think of.

So you see you and many others on this forum, myself included, are part of a conspiracy to overthrow the established ideas set by HG onto RT fans.

A good review of Robotech that I found:

http://www.skooldays.com/categories/saturday/sa1419.htm

Its a good honest review of the "books" of Robotech. Unlike another review I saw where a guy actually compared Robotech to the books that formed the Bible. He believed that the stories of the original anime didn't work well on their own, but that combined together as the Robotech trilogy they some how at a greater impact. Even went as far as saying that Robotech taught great morals such as when the Invid learned to forgive Zor's original sin of stealing protoculture at the end of Robotech.

[Gubaba]

Its a good honest review of the "books" of Robotech. Unlike another review I saw where a guy actually compared Robotech to the books that formed the Bible. He believed that the stories of the original anime didn't work well on their own, but that combined together as the Robotech trilogy they some how at a greater impact. Even went as far as saying that Robotech taught great morals such as when the Invid learned to forgive Zor's original sin of stealing protoculture at the end of Robotech.

I've heard other people natter on about how much they love the "epic feel" of Robotech...my answer's always the same: "Legend of the Galactic Heroes is epic; Robotech's just long."

[BlackRose]

Unlike another review I saw where a guy actually compared Robotech to the books that formed the Bible. He believed that the stories of the original anime didn't work well on their own, but that combined together as the Robotech trilogy they some how at a greater impact. Even went as far as saying that Robotech taught great morals such as when the Invid learned to forgive Zor's original sin of stealing protoculture at the end of Robotech.

Wow... now there is a review written by someone in deep, DEEP denial.

It's been a while since I last tried to watch Robotech, but I'm pretty sure the Invid didn't forgive Zor for stealing protoculture. If I remember right, they got all snooty, proclaimed that Earth and humanity were too badly tainted with the "shadow of the Robotech Masters" for them to stick around, and left.

How does combining one good show (Macross), one not great but not bad show (Mospeada), and twenty three episodes of concentrated agony (Southern Cross) equal greatness?

I've heard other people natter on about how much they love the "epic feel" of Robotech...my answer's always the same: "Legend of the Galactic Heroes is epic; Robotech's just long."

Yeah, I don't understand their claims of epic-ness about Robotech. The changing of aesthetics between sagas is so jarring and uncomfortable it happens with an almost audible "clunk".

[VF5SS]

How does combining one good show (Macross), one not great but not bad show (Mospeada), and twenty three episodes of concentrated agony (Southern Cross) equal greatness?

Hey now Southern Cross isn't that bad on its own. I think a lot of the ire comes from how the show was mangled by Macek and co. Out of all three, its arguably the one with the most changes. Not only did they not even allow it to take place on a alien planet like its supposed to, they made Dana a thousand times more annoying than Jeanne. Coupled with the the fact that the first episode of Robotech Southern Cross is a friggen clip show of how awesome Max and Millia are is basically Macek going, "boy I wish we had more Macross to adapt, this sucks." When the producers of the show are brow beating the audience with how much they hate it, its hard to expect the audience to disagree. Don't get me started on the character assassination of Seifriet. Robotech had no idea what to do with him and Zor Prime is the most convoluted character in this mess.

As for the "epicness' I think most of it comes from the supplementary comics and novels since all of the backstory in the show amounts to nothing more than throwaway lines. When you add twenty years of not real activity in the franchise and you've got zealot fans ready to defend Robotech to the last edit. Honestly if you took out all the story elements that were merely part of the original shows, all you'd be left with is a mangled Southern Cross and barely a page worth of dialog from Macross's and Mospeada's edits. Which is really the big disconnect between Robotech fans and the rest of the world since they don't seem to realize that Robotech has no story of its own and was successful because they didn't alter the shows that much outside of Southern Cross.

Can you imagine if Robotech was done like Macek's magnum opus "Macron 1?"

Yeah, I don't understand their claims of epic-ness about Robotech. The changing of aesthetics between sagas is so jarring and uncomfortable it happens with an almost audible "clunk".

Yeah right. Even Gundam does "epic" better than that.

[Moly_Sigang]

hey guys i'm new here

anyway, i find that the usual modus operandi of die-hard robotech fans is to downplay macross and give high praises to robotech. like for example, they say that macross as a stand alone is a so so anime not worth your time but when macek combined it with southern cross and mospeada to become robotech it magically became 100x much better

these guys firmly believe that the only way for macross to become infinitely better is to shoehorn them into the robotech storyline.

[Sir Galahad®]

Let them have their fun

Maybe it's an excuse for them to integrate more macross into their universe. I mean, some die hard fans are already adding macross mecha into their roleplaying games.

I wouldn't be surprised if they used the Messiah and the Lucifer in the future.

[Bri]

Would it be possible to split this topic at some point in say, the License debate and a Robotech thread?

This thread is one of the few online resources that has any, more or less, decent information about the legal situation around the Macross license.

It gets annoying having to wade through pages and pages of discussions about the inner workings and politics of Robotech.com, HG and it's employees. I'm sure that people have fair reasons for their gripes with HG and have as much a right to discuss those in a thread. However it makes reading up on the license debate very tedious.

[TheLoneWolf]

Not to mention that this thread is longer than most of the threads already in Hall of Super Topics.

[Gubaba]

Would it be possible to split this topic at some point in say, the License debate and a Robotech thread?

This thread is one of the few online resources that has any, more or less, decent information about the legal situation around the Macross license.

It gets annoying having to wade through pages and pages of discussions about the inner workings and politics of Robotech.com, HG and it's employees. I'm sure that people have fair reasons for their gripes with HG and have as much a right to discuss those in a thread. However it makes reading up on the license debate very tedious.

Not to mention that this thread is longer than most of the threads already in Hall of Super Topics.

Maybe we should compile a list of the (very few) facts we have, and pin it and lock it for easy reference, like the Newbie's Guide to RT and Macross.

Then we could start another thread for complaining about RT.

[TheLoneWolf]

I like that idea. A clean(er) license thread and another thread that is dedicated to the cesspool of RT hate.

I'll work on the former. But if the mods don't like the idea, then they can delete it.

[Gubaba]

I like that idea. A clean(er) license thread and another thread that is dedicated to the cesspool of RT hate.

I'll work on the former. But if the mods don't like the idea, then they can delete it.

It looks good. Perhaps something should be added about Macross 7 Trash, though. Although we have no idea about why whys and wherefores of its cancellation, it's been the only attempt after II and Plus to bring Macross to the U.S....

[Bri]

It looks good. Perhaps something should be added about Macross 7 Trash, though. Although we have no idea about why whys and wherefores of its cancellation, it's been the only attempt after II and Plus to bring Macross to the U.S....

Yea, it's a very nice start. Hopefully we can extract all the usefull info from the current thread in a few pages.

[Gubaba]

Yea, it's a very nice start. Hopefully we can extract all the usefull info from the current thread in a few pages.

That pretty much IS all the useful info. Everything else is rumors and hearsay.

[Bri]

That pretty much IS all the useful info. Everything else is rumors and hearsay.

hmm, I'm not sure. There were quite a few posts early on in this thread by people like Radd, the white drew cary and Ewilen who dug up info on the lawsuit, the HG crackdown on e-tailers etc. Also some contacts with industry people were mentioned. I'm sure there could still be some usefull bits floating around.

[Einherjar]

hey guys i'm new here

anyway, i find that the usual modus operandi of die-hard robotech fans is to downplay macross and give high praises to robotech. like for example, they say that macross as a stand alone is a so so anime not worth your time but when macek combined it with southern cross and mospeada to become robotech it magically became 100x much better

these guys firmly believe that the only way for macross to become infinitely better is to shoehorn them into the robotech storyline.

After hearing what happened with Megazone 23 as the Robotech movie, I'm willing to believe that the HG crew were probably ready to shoehorn whatever 80's anime series they could get their hands on into Robotech if their independent projects didn't work out. The fans have apparently adapted this kind of thinking when talking about "what if" or the future of the series. Guess they lack the imagination the crew had in the animation department, and totally split about original material made in a different kind of media or with different people (can't blame them in some cases).

BTW, do the die-hards read stuff on these forums and make similar criticisms about us?

[TheLoneWolf]

Bri, Gubaba, thanks for the kind words.

I do plan on adding in some information from previous posts (see the Sources section), such as credible links from the lawsuit, but that's going to take some time. I do think it's important for the sake of credibility, otherwise it could just be categorized as more fan conjecture.

I'll add in a bit on the European release of Macross 7 Trash later today. I know that HG and TokyoPop wanted to release it in the USA, but I'm having a hard time finding locating an official confirmation. I believe the only official story was posted on RT.com long ago, and I can't seem to find that story. Without an official source, I'm hesitant to add it in.

[JB0]

I'll add in a bit on the European release of Macross 7 Trash later today. I know that HG and TokyoPop wanted to release it in the USA, but I'm having a hard time finding locating an official confirmation. I believe the only official story was posted on RT.com long ago, and I can't seem to find that story. Without an official source, I'm hesitant to add it in.

Robotech.com deleted it as soon as the release fizzled.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/press-rele...s-7-trash-manga

Fairly sure that "article" is just a reprint of the Tokyopop press release.

[Macross007]

It seems that our friend Seto Kaiba was right about Robotech fans adapting anything they want into their shitty franchise :

http://www.youtube.com/robotechfanplus

''Robotech 00''.

Edited April 28, 2009 by Macross007

[Gubaba]

It seems that our friend Seto Kaiba was right about Robotech fans adapting anything they want into their shitty franchise :

http://www.youtube.com/robotechfanplus

''Robotech 00''.

I've mentioned Robotechfanplus before, and I have to say I think it's all a big put-on.

I wish Macross fans wouldn't spam him with insults...it just makes us look bad...

[Seto Kaiba]

BTW, do the die-hards read stuff on these forums and make similar criticisms about us?

Not that I can tell... Robotech.com's terms of use pretty much make a thread like this one impossible... they don't even allow fans to ask questions about the status of their legal claim to Macross.

If there is one, it's got to be in the officer's forums, where the general public can't see it.

It seems that our friend Seto Kaiba was right about Robotech fans adapting anything they want into their shitty franchise :

http://www.youtube.com/robotechfanplus

''Robotech 00''.

and then everybody was trolled...

I guess after twenty years with nothing decent to show for itself, Robotech fans are just so fed up they'll staple anything to Robotech with a flimsy excuse just so they can feel like the show hasn't been totally forgotten.

[Jasonc]

I guess after twenty years with nothing decent to show for itself, Robotech fans are just so fed up they'll staple anything to Robotech with a flimsy excuse just so they can feel like the show hasn't been totally forgotten.

True, but honestly, can you blame them? You can try to educate them and explain to them that there is more sophisticated and more gripping stuff out there, but in the end, you're dealing with fanboys and girls who have been waiting so long for something of substance, they grab other things that have what RT is missing to fill the gap. Also, in dealing with "hungry fans", no matter what HG does with their "no information is good" policy, the fans want info on things. Wether it's on general info, or answers to their licensing issues w/ the LAM, they're gonna talk about what they hope for, think is going on, and expect.

HG is putting themselves in a far worse position with their no info policy. Yea, fans are talking about their product, as Kevin so likes to brag, but they aren't talking about it in the necessarily rosie fashion they want. I'm sure people would still complain even with new art and not as precise info, but the level and extremity of it wouldn't be so bad. It's too bad HG can't even get enough info to let their fans know if they are working around the licensing issues, or if they're going the RTSC route.