Robotech and HG license debates

[Macross007]

The website is dying a slow and painful death... like all things Robotech.

My new sig right there. Thanks dude.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Macross007

[VF5SS]

Its one thing to create cross-universes such as Super Robot Wars does, but to graft other Macross shows to Robotech rather then admitting their separate is just sad.

Interestingly enough, someone brought up this type of comparison when I was bashing RT:SC on my review. Basically the idea was Robotech was as legit as SRW. Having had the chance to play translated SRW games (non Original Generation of course) I can tell you those games are like the worst fanfic mashups ever. They're fun to play, but when you have Roy Focker being chums with Monsha from Gundam 0083 and the Titans from Zeta Gundam taking over the Macross, the entire story becomes an exercise in what more ridiculous twists can be made by the end.

Maybe it's a good thing Tatsunoko never lets any Japanese game makers do anything with Mospeada and Southern Cross lest the Robotech fans get even more confused.

[taksraven]

Maybe it's a good thing Tatsunoko never lets any Japanese game makers do anything with Mospeada and Southern Cross lest the Robotech fans get even more confused.

I think that its more a case of Japanese game makers not being interested in doing anything with two *very* obscure programs, rather than Tatsunoko not letting them.

Taksraven

[Freiflug88]

Maybe it's a good thing Tatsunoko never lets any Japanese game makers do anything with Mospeada and Southern Cross lest the Robotech fans get even more confused.

Funny you should say that. Just the other day I saw a youtube video with SRW attacks and it had Mosepeda in one of the SRW games! I believe it is one of the more recent SRW games on the PS2. I was actually looking for the SRW game it was on because I wanted to compare SRW stats of the Alpha/Beta fighters to other Macross fighters after reading Einherjar's post about Alpha and Betas being considered superior to any Macross model. No such luck in finding the specific game but I do remember seeing that Mospeda Inbit and Ride armor in a SRW game.

No doubt you were playing SRW Alpha Gaiden judging by your description. The ridiculous twists and turns are inevitable when you consider they are games made from twisting scenario after twisting scenario from popular series as missions. Part of the fun though is the fact that it is a cross-over that shows a what-if the characters all existed in the same universe. Such as the moment Roy challenged Isamu to a drinking contest, with Hickaru saying something like "Poor Isamu doesn't stand a chance against Major Focker, the Nighttime ace." Perhaps you should try the Original Generation games already available on GBA, I guess you could say they are more legitate in that it is original charaters rather then a cross-over mash-up, but there is just as many twists in the plots.

My new sig right there. Thanks dude.

Your welcome for the new sig, but uhh I think you should paraphrase for this site. Without the context of the situation it sounds like THIS Macross website is dying a slow and painful death with Robotech. On the OTHER website, however its much more fitting to use in its current form. You know what website I am talking about.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Freiflug88

[Macross007]

Your welcome for the new sig, but uhh I think you should paraphrase for this site. Without the context of the situation it sounds like THIS Macross website is dying a slow and painful death with Robotech. On the OTHER website, however its much more fitting to use in its current form. You know what website I am talking about.

No problem sir. Correction done.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Macross007

[Xeros]

Because of that I always say that they should burn the heretics

[Seto Kaiba]

And their time line goes beyond 2060?

An odd choice... considering Robotech's timeline has never really gone past 2044.

Lighting III is there in SDF Macross, Robotech, and even DYRL, but only as a mere model.

No, it's not.

The production model VF-4 first appeared in Macross: Flashback 2012. It's the VF-X-4 prototype that briefly appears in Super Dimension Fortress Macross as a scale model. I'm reasonably certain it does not appear in DYRL. In any event, the URRG's VF-4 entry does not use the VF-X-4, it uses the completed VF-4 design with the Kawamori-designed battroid mode from VF-X, and cites This is Animation Special: Macross Plus and Macross Digital Mission VF-X as its sources.

EDIT: The article's remarks section even explicitly mentions that the completed VF-4 design "never appeared in Robotech".

Edited April 24, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[taksraven]

An odd choice... considering Robotech's timeline has never really gone past 2044.

Don't forget Robotech 3000!! ;)

Taksraven

[Einherjar]

Don't forget Robotech 3000!! ;)

That was literally going to take place in 3000 A.D.? I always thought that was an expression like in MST3K.

Crap, it never ends does it.

[Seto Kaiba]

That was literally going to take place in 3000 A.D.? I always thought that was an expression like in MST3K.

Crap, it never ends does it.

Nope, it never does.

Yes, Robotech 3000 was set in the year 3000.

[VF5SS]

No such luck in finding the specific game but I do remember seeing that Mospeda Inbit and Ride armor in a SRW game.

It's just fanart.

[taksraven]

Nope, it never does.

Yes, Robotech 3000 was set in the year 3000.

At least with Robotech 3000 it was pretty clear that HG was trying to create a show that would avoid most copyright issues by not using any of the technology from the three products bastardised for the original Robotech. AND if it had gone ahead it would have sucked really badly. (no surprise)

Taksraven

[Freiflug88]

No, it's not.

The production model VF-4 first appeared in Macross: Flashback 2012. It's the VF-X-4 prototype that briefly appears in Super Dimension Fortress Macross as a scale model. I'm reasonably certain it does not appear in DYRL. In any event, the URRG's VF-4 entry does not use the VF-X-4, it uses the completed VF-4 design with the Kawamori-designed battroid mode from VF-X, and cites This is Animation Special: Macross Plus and Macross Digital Mission VF-X as its sources.

EDIT: The article's remarks section even explicitly mentions that the completed VF-4 design "never appeared in Robotech".

When I said the model appeared I meant the toy model that Hikaru/Rick was playing with at the beginning of episode 36 before Minmay walked into his room. The same toy model is also visible on Hikaru's desk in Macross DYRL after Minmay storms out and Hikarus and Misa have their moment. Even though it is only animated briefly as a toy model, its still technically an animated part of the Robotech universe and got just about the same screen time as the Ghost fighters in episode 1.

[Seto Kaiba]

At least with Robotech 3000 it was pretty clear that HG was trying to create a show that would avoid most copyright issues by not using any of the technology from the three products bastardised for the original Robotech. AND if it had gone ahead it would have sucked really badly. (no surprise)

Robotech 3000 is pretty much ironclad proof that Harmony Gold's creative staff was terminally incompetent even before the changing of the guard that brought us Tommy Yune.

When I said the model appeared I meant the toy model that Hikaru/Rick was playing with at the beginning of episode 36 before Minmay walked into his room. The same toy model is also visible on Hikaru's desk in Macross DYRL after Minmay storms out and Hikarus and Misa have their moment.

For the last time, that model is a VF-X-4 prototype, not a production model VF-4. The production model VF-4 does NOT appear in Robotech, and it is the production model VF-4 that the URRG attempts to add to the Robotech universe.

[BlackRose]

At least with Robotech 3000 it was pretty clear that HG was trying to create a show that would avoid most copyright issues by not using any of the technology from the three products bastardised for the original Robotech. AND if it had gone ahead it would have sucked really badly. (no surprise)

What's really hilarious about Robotech 3000 is that even by the standards of the day, the show's CGI was embarassingly bad. Didn't they blame the project's cancellation on their animators, Netter Digital?

Harmony Gold's really good at passing the blame when something goes wrong. When Robotech II: the Sentinels fell apart, they blamed Matchbox and the exchange rate. When Robotech: the Untold Story went under, they blamed the changes from "Carl Macek's vision for the movie". It's pretty obvious that if when the live-action movie bombs, Maguire Entertainment are the designated fall guys. I wonder who they'll blame if Robotech: Shadow Rising tanks?

Edited April 24, 2009 by BlackRose

[Gubaba]

What's really hilarious about Robotech 3000 is that even by the standards of the day, the show's CGI was embarassingly bad. Didn't they blame the project's cancellation on their animators, Netter Digital?

I think what was REALLY hilarious about it was that they apparently only made a minute-and-a-half of footage, and even THAT failed to be good or interesting.

It's like Sentinels in miniature...

[Seto Kaiba]

What's really hilarious about Robotech 3000 is that even by the standards of the day, the show's CGI was embarassingly bad. Didn't they blame the project's cancellation on their animators, Netter Digital?

Yeah, they blamed the project's failure on Netter Digital having gone bankrupt earlier that same year.

EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it, there's an alarming trend of companies going bankrupt and/or out of business shortly after acquiring a license to produce Robotech products.

I think what was REALLY hilarious about it was that they apparently only made a minute-and-a-half of footage, and even THAT failed to be good or interesting.

It's like Sentinels in miniature...

A tidy little microcosm of the entire franchise, more like.

Edited April 24, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Gubaba]

EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it, there's an alarming trend of companies going bankrupt and/or out of business shortly after acquiring a license to produce Robotech products.

Everyone should've learned a lesson from Matchbox. They got out early and survived. Not sure if they ever made action figures again, though...

A tidy little microcosm of the entire franchise, more like.

Nah...if it had been that, the they would've taken something that was initially interesting and good, and made it uninteresting and, um, ungood.

[taksraven]

What's really hilarious about Robotech 3000 is that even by the standards of the day, the show's CGI was embarassingly bad. Didn't they blame the project's cancellation on their animators, Netter Digital?

Harmony Gold's really good at passing the blame when something goes wrong. When Robotech II: the Sentinels fell apart, they blamed Matchbox and the exchange rate. When Robotech: the Untold Story went under, they blamed the changes from "Carl Macek's vision for the movie". It's pretty obvious that if when the live-action movie bombs, Maguire Entertainment are the designated fall guys. I wonder who they'll blame if Robotech: Shadow Rising tanks?

Hello BlackRose, welcome to the party.

Yeah, when things go bad for HG they go to pieces so fast that everybody else gets hit by the shrapnel. Its NEVER their fault if things go wrong. The "What Went Wrong" chapter of Robotech Art 3: The Sentinels was pretty funny.

(Don't forget that Macek also has a swipe at the Japanese for producing some substandard animation for the program and concocts his own hypocritical conspiracy theory that the Japanese possibly wanted to bastardise Sentinels footage in some way to make a new show for the Japanese market. One of the ultimate cases of the pot calling the kettle black.)

Taksraven

[taksraven]

Nah...if it had been that, the they would've taken something that was initially interesting and good, and made it uninteresting and, um, ungood.

C'mon, weren't we all thrilled with the concept of the "Veritech mining robot" or whatever the hell it was!

Taksraven

[Robelwell202]

For information purposes: There is a preview clip of Robotech 3000 on RT:TSC collectors edition. And, yes, it is B A D!!!

[taksraven]

For information purposes: There is a preview clip of Robotech 3000 on RT:TSC collectors edition. And, yes, it is B A D!!!

The best thing about it is that it is *very* brief and we know that no more was made.....

Taksraven

[Einherjar]

(Don't forget that Macek also has a swipe at the Japanese for producing some substandard animation for the program and concocts his own hypocritical conspiracy theory that the Japanese possibly wanted to bastardise Sentinels footage in some way to make a new show for the Japanese market. One of the ultimate cases of the pot calling the kettle black.)

It's funny that he blamed the people that helped build his reputation as a storyteller since he can't do well as when he gets a hold of the reigns. He almost sounds like a diva from that interview, or at least a prototype of Jack Thomson with those delusions. It doesn't help that he had no experience directing original animation before, yet people thought it would be a great idea to let him lead it. A total noob move if he thought it would be done as quickly as he edited shows. And after the Sentinels was supposed to be done, with plans for the Odyssey, a part IV, and V (over 300-400+ episodes for the whole thing), how quickly were they expecting to release sequels to the public? The cost and logistics alone would be a total nightmare.

[Gubaba]

C'mon, weren't we all thrilled with the concept of the "Veritech mining robot" or whatever the hell it was!

Taksraven

Not only did the Veritech Mining Robot have me slack-jawed with wonder and awe (and would our heroes escape its villainous clutches? My ass felt like it was Krazy Glued to my chair!) but the characters TOTALLY reminded me of Gerry Anderson...and isn't the true essence of Robotech to be found in Supercar?

[BlackRose]

(Don't forget that Macek also has a swipe at the Japanese for producing some substandard animation for the program and concocts his own hypocritical conspiracy theory that the Japanese possibly wanted to bastardise Sentinels footage in some way to make a new show for the Japanese market. One of the ultimate cases of the pot calling the kettle black.)

So that's where Kevin McKeever gets it...

I can't help but think that Harmony Gold's business plan is a line from an old Tom Lehrer song: "Plagiarize! Plagiarize! Don't let anyone else's work evade your eyes! So don't shade your eyes! Just plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize! But please be sure to always call it 'research'".

It doesn't help that he had no experience directing original animation before, yet people thought it would be a great idea to let him lead it. A total noob move if he thought it would be done as quickly as he edited shows.

Robotech's production process has always been a poorly organized clusterfart. They were just trying to follow tradition.

[Gubaba]

So that's where Kevin McKeever gets it...

I can't help but think that Harmony Gold's business plan is a line from an old Tom Lehrer song: "Plagiarize! Plagiarize! Don't let anyone else's work evade your eyes! So don't shade your eyes! Just plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize! But please be sure to always call it 'research'".

Ah, I too am never forget the great mathematician Lobechevsky. Thanks for that.

[Jasonc]

Speaking about passing blame. When I went to a screening of RTSC at a theater in westwood, all the staff, and some voice actors were there. After the movie was over, they decided to have some Q&A. Someone asked why the characters all looked very comic book like, i.e., the chisled bodies and big boobs especially. Tommy's response was more like "Well, most of the Korean animators are young guys, and you know how those young Korean guys can draw the women..." My wife and I were so damn shocked to hear that crap. I'm not Korean, but I was quite appauled that he would stoop so low as to point the blame on the Korean animators. Tommy and Steve both are Korean, and to make a statement like that... Anyways, what was even more lame about that, was the fact that as the creative DIRECTOR, those were designs he himself approved. So to put blame on something he approved is just retarded, unless they decided not to see the designs before production. In that case they're just as stupid. It's funny how they just never owned up and said something simple like "you know, we thought the designs were fine, and that's our mistake. All we can do from here is strive for a better feature as we progress." Even some sort of crap like that would've shown some cahones, and would've deflated that.

From a recent post on rt.com, it seems like they're still using some very similar lame excuse as to the character design. "Young animators"...but who looks at the designs before they go into production???

[Gubaba]

Speaking about passing blame. When I went to a screening of RTSC at a theater in westwood, all the staff, and some voice actors were there. After the movie was over, they decided to have some Q&A. Someone asked why the characters all looked very comic book like, i.e., the chisled bodies and big boobs especially. Tommy's response was more like "Well, most of the Korean animators are young guys, and you know how those young Korean guys can draw the women..." My wife and I were so damn shocked to hear that crap. I'm not Korean, but I was quite appauled that he would stoop so low as to point the blame on the Korean animators. Tommy and Steve both are Korean, and to make a statement like that... Anyways, what was even more lame about that, was the fact that as the creative DIRECTOR, those were designs he himself approved. So to put blame on something he approved is just retarded, unless they decided not to see the designs before production. In that case they're just as stupid. It's funny how they just never owned up and said something simple like "you know, we thought the designs were fine, and that's our mistake. All we can do from here is strive for a better feature as we progress." Even some sort of crap like that would've shown some cahones, and would've deflated that.

From a recent post on rt.com, it seems like they're still using some very similar lame excuse as to the character design. "Young animators"...but who looks at the designs before they go into production???

They actually SAID that? At the PREMIERE??

Wow, it's like they already knew TSC sucked, and they'd gone ahead and prepared lame answers...

[Einherjar]

Well, sex sells.

It was probably a bad time to make a joke like that even if some people enjoyed the unnecessary fanservice. But people were waiting 20+ years for that film to be an epic; among other things, to have hormones run the artwork must have turned people off. Guess they had to add more eye candy if Decoy Skull (the comic relief), Louie, or the mecha couldn't lighten up the film's mood enough.

[BlackRose]

Someone asked why the characters all looked very comic book like, i.e., the chisled bodies and big boobs especially. Tommy's response was more like "Well, most of the Korean animators are young guys, and you know how those young Korean guys can draw the women..."

Wow. I knew Tommy was an idiot, but that goes above and beyond his usual stupidity. At any other company, he probably would've been fired for saying something like that to an auditorium full of paying customers.

Worst idea ever. Made even stupider by the fact that anybody with half a brain knows that as creative director he had to have personally approved each and every one of those character designs. Weren't the character and mecha designs for the Shadow Chronicles movie and comics his designs? I know he did the supplemental character design for that Robotech: Battlecry game.

Well, sex sells.

Now there's a lesson we KNOW Tommy learned. His comic book credits include a stint doing art for Superman, and a Danger Girl miniseries. Between his work for DC, Image, and Harmony Gold, it really calls into question whether he even knows what a real woman looks like, because most of the women he draws seem to be missing fairly vital things like the lower half of their ribcages, and most of the abdominal organs.

Edited April 24, 2009 by BlackRose

[taksraven]

I am going to say that's not very impressive but I'm not going to shake my head like a puritan either. Sooooo many posts on these forums were dedicated to breast sizes in Frontier. And I am still pissed off that my "sexiest thing in MacF" thread was shut down too.

I have to admit though that sexism and primitive attitudes towards female characters is pretty common in ALL forms of animation.

Taksraven

[DarrinG]

I am going to say that's not very impressive but I'm not going to shake my head like a puritan either. Sooooo many posts on these forums were dedicated to breast sizes in Frontier. And I am still pissed off that my "sexiest thing in MacF" thread was shut down too.

I have to admit though that sexism and primitive attitudes towards female characters is pretty common in ALL forms of animation.

Taksraven

The character designs in SC were plain bad. Their excuse is lame and the responsibility rests solely on them. They should own up.

Why didn't Stick/Scott just look like he did in the series or even the art on the DVD cover? Why would Ariel suddenly have 20 pound boobs? The boobs on the robot character weren't enough??! The Maya character design stunk - I would have gone with blue or green hair, or blonde even - not purple hair with a elfin nose. Don;t get me started, its still annoying after all this time.

Get your hands out of your pants gentlemen at HG! -- we are mostly in our 30s now - we are not 14 going on 12. PLEASE take note of these well thought out criticisms! Please improve these aspects for any SR project, if that is in fact still happening.

One more tip; Watch the movie Aliens about 500 X and copy the feel of the humor & action exactly - you'll do fine . . .

[terry the lone wolf]

The character designs in SC were plain bad. Their excuse is lame and the responsibility rests solely on them. They should own up.

Why didn't Stick/Scott just look like he did in the series or even the art on the DVD cover? Why would Ariel suddenly have 20 pound boobs? The boobs on the robot character weren't enough??! The Maya character design stunk - I would have gone with blue or green hair, or blonde even - not purple hair with a elfin nose. Don;t get me started, its still annoying after all this time.

Get your hands out of your pants gentlemen at HG! -- we are mostly in our 30s now - we are not 14 going on 12. PLEASE take note of these well thought out criticisms! Please improve these aspects for any SR project, if that is in fact still happening.

One more tip; Watch the movie Aliens about 500 X and copy the feel of the humor & action exactly - you'll do fine . . .

I seem to remember Macross Frontier having it's fair share of boobage.

[DarrinG]

. . . but I was quite appauled that he would stoop so low as to point the blame on the Korean animators. Tommy and Steve both are Korean, and to make a statement like that... Anyways, what was even more lame about that, was the fact that as the creative DIRECTOR, those were designs he himself approved.

You do think they got the message now though right? I know most posters here hate them and have no faith in their abilities but knowing them - you do think they'll improve some of this stuff for SR?

[Freiflug88]

My bad Seto, I was quickly reading your post and typing my post before I had to rush out the door. I completely missed the sentance:

It's the VF-X-4 prototype that briefly appears in Super Dimension Fortress Macross as a scale model.

I see what you mean that the actual VF-4 Production was never animated in the Robotech universe, but I don't think that is reason enough to exclude it from Robotech mecha. If the prototype model itself existed in RT its a small stretch to say that some production model would be built sometime in the RT continuity. Of course if a production design of the VF-4 is shoehorned into the RT corner its just going to be a copy of Macross's design as we all know HG doesn't make anything remotely original except for character designs with big breasts which bring me to this:

"Well, most of the Korean animators are young guys, and you know how those young Korean guys can draw the women..."

Now I wasn't actually there so I don't know how Tommy actually delivered it, but I think it was just a joke that came out sounding bad. Tommy himself is Korean and everyone knows he was the creative director so when he remarks that "you know how those young Korean guys can draw their women" he is indirectly making fun of himself as a horny guy who draws sexy women because he can. I think you guys are just blowing things out of proportion as we start to demonize everything Tommy, Kevin, and the whole HG crew do. It was obviously a stupid joke that Tommy said trying to be funny rather then state the obvious that he is just a normal straight guy who likes to use his drawing skills to make sexy woman.

Edit: Don't forget as well that were things that were drawn in by animators that Tommy changed such as the Regiss transformation scene where she turns into a burst of light that looks like a giant penis and Aeriel's nudity which of course had to be censored to keep the movie PG.

Edited April 24, 2009 by Freiflug88