Robotech and HG license debates

[Einherjar]

Someone already beat you to the punch:

I thought it was hilarious...but apparently there are a bunch of people with no sense of humor who inexplicably love Macross.

Or maybe everyone is so used to HG ripping off everything that isn't nailed down, that they can't appreciate a pretty nasty joke on Robotech...

Gosh, I never saw it that way before, but that totally makes sense now. If Robotech can't stand on it's own in whatever bold new direction people want it to go, let it be mocked for what it can't have/become. Sucks for HG trying to distance the franchise away from Macross while the fans really can't let it go.

[Gubaba]

Gosh, I never saw it that way before, but that totally makes sense now. If Robotech can't stand on it's own in whatever bold new direction people want it to go, let it be mocked for what it can't have/become. Sucks for HG trying to distance the franchise away from Macross while the fans really can't let it go.

Well...I choose to see it that way, whatever the poster intended.

Really, I believe there are only two ways to look at things like this:

1) The poster is grasping-at-straws pathetic, trying to edit anything they can to try to make Robotech relevant again. This is the RPG people, trying to fit Gundams and Evas into Robotech continuity.

2) The poster is being sly, and poking fun at the above fans, and at HG. This is stuff like "Robotech III: Not Necessarily the Sentinels."

Considering that I saw Robotech III first, quite a long time ago, I guess it's not surprising that I take anything similar as being a wicked joke.

By the way...is Robotech fandom the only one that takes bits and pieces of existing shows and tries to turn them into "original" Robotech works...? Yes...? I thought so.

[Sir Galahad®]

1) The poster is grasping-at-straws pathetic, trying to edit anything they can to try to make Robotech relevant again. This is the RPG people, trying to fit Gundams and Evas into Robotech continuity.

You mean like this?

http://www.geocities.com/spiffy5181/vf11.html

[Einherjar]

By the way...is Robotech fandom the only one that takes bits and pieces of existing shows and tries to turn them into "original" Robotech works...? Yes...? I thought so.

That's definitely a trend I've seen only in Robotech. I guess the genuine ones are only following Carl Macek's example, which is disturbing since they're the only ones anywhere who find this kind of thing acceptable now. But whatever, it emphasizes how unoriginal the whole thing is anyway.

[Gubaba]

You mean like this?

http://www.geocities.com/spiffy5181/vf11.html

Yeah, like that...except I saw a far loopier one that I can't seem to locate now, that included the Zeta Gundam, the Double Zeta, and the FAZZ...it gave Robotech-related backstories for them and everything.

Of course, for pure loopiness, it's hard to beat this:

http://www.geocities.com/mylenebowman/robotech-hist.html

[Einherjar]

Yeah, like that...except I saw a far loopier one that I can't seem to locate now, that included the Zeta Gundam, the Double Zeta, and the FAZZ...it gave Robotech-related backstories for them and everything.

Of course, for pure loopiness, it's hard to beat this:

http://www.geocities.com/mylenebowman/robotech-hist.html

Ah, it's the Pie Guy's page. Definitely wordy BS.

[Sir Galahad®]

That's definitely a trend I've seen only in Robotech. I guess the genuine ones are only following Carl Macek's example, which is disturbing since they're the only ones anywhere who find this kind of thing acceptable now. But whatever, it emphasizes how unoriginal the whole thing is anyway.

Although some of Macek's work are kinda unacceptable in the macross universe

Such as "Thinking Caps"

That totally goes against the BCS System used by the YF-21 and the VF-27

I guess he was trying to explain every event happening in the original macross

[Einherjar]

Although some of Macek's work are kinda unacceptable in the macross universe

Such as "Thinking Caps"

That totally goes against the BCS System used by the YF-21 and the VF-27

I guess he was trying to explain every event happening in the original macross

You forget, Macek is almost God of the Robotech universe and the fandom. They'll make anything he says work, no matter what in any form possible with other people's stuff.

[Gubaba]

Ah, it's the Pie Guy's page. Definitely wordy BS.

What are you talking about? Do you not find that the stimulation to be found in engaging with other gentlemen using only the most refined speech and manner to be a worthwhile pastime? Do you not think that such verbal ability, manipulation of syntax, and overuse of cultured latinate vocabulary (as has been demonstrated on that website) are the signs of truly fine writing, organized by a master of the English language? Do you, sir, not think that orating in such a way that one's thoughts and opinions become well nigh impenetrable through a thick mist of obfuscation and spiraling noun clauses is not the surest way to glimpse the genius that lies beneath the narrative surface...?

...Whaddya mean, "no"?

Edited April 23, 2009 by Gubaba

[Sir Galahad®]

What are you talking about? Do you not find that the stimulation to be found in engaging with other gentlemen using only the most refined speech and manner to be a worthwhile pastime? Do you not think that such verbal ability, manipulation of syntax, and overuse of cultured latinate vocabulary (as has been demonstrated on that website) are the signs of truly fine writing, organized by a master of the English language? Do you, sir, not think that orating in such a way that one's thoughts and opinions become well nigh impenetrable through a thick mist of obfuscation and spiraling noun clauses is not the surest way to glimpse the genius that lies beneath the narrative surface...?

...Whaddya mean, "no"?

I didn't know that Mylene and Guld were to be married

[Gubaba]

I didn't know that Mylene and Guld were to be married

I don't really get that, either...Guld died in 2040, when Mylene was all of nine years old. So either Guld's a pedophile, or Mylene's marrying a zombie.

Either way, ya gotta admit it's creepy.

[Einherjar]

...Whaddya mean, "no"?

Well, I've heard about his original works and it hasn't been encouraging. I've also learned he doesn't take criticism very well.

Robotech, at least the Shadow Chronicles part, sure did a number on him.

EDIT: I think this was too much, sorry. The Mods can delete this post if they need to.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Einherjar

[Seto Kaiba]

Although some of Macek's work are kinda unacceptable in the macross universe

Such as "Thinking Caps"

Actually, as far as I'm aware the "thinking cap" is something McKinney came up with.

Carl Macek gabbled on a bit about protoculture causing an "empathetic" link between man and machine, but it was the McKinney novels that made it a piece of technology integral to the control of a battroid. Of course, even Robotech fans are quick to shoot that one down, citing the fact that neither the dialogue nor the animation supports the existence of such a technology in the series. There was actually a big, overly verbose thread about it not too long ago.

If you think Robotech fans have a persecution complex when confronted with Macross... it's NOTHING compared to the persecution complex the McKinneyist Robotech fans have developed because of the fanbase's general antipathy towards anything associated with McKinney.

That's definitely a trend I've seen only in Robotech. I guess the genuine ones are only following Carl Macek's example, which is disturbing since they're the only ones anywhere who find this kind of thing acceptable now. But whatever, it emphasizes how unoriginal the whole thing is anyway.

I guess you could argue that Robotech fans are only emulating the show's creators when they're stealing everything that isn't nailed down and/or on fire and trying to graft it onto Robotech. These days, it's virtually impossible to find a Robotech fansite that hasn't stolen something from one of the later Macross shows, or any of a host of other mecha shows. Even the much-lauded (among RT fans) Unofficial Robotech Reference Guide includes a bunch of mecha that aren't even in Robotech. The sad part is it's one of the more conservative ones... I've seen Robotech fans trying to incorporate mecha, characters, and stories from as far afield as Neon Genesis Evangelion and Godannar.

[EXO]

Woulda been better if the BG music was switched to RT music. Otherwise it's just clips that he renamed, not all that funny.

Someone already beat you to the punch:

I thought it was hilarious...but apparently there are a bunch of people with no sense of humor who inexplicably love Macross.

Or maybe everyone is so used to HG ripping off everything that isn't nailed down, that they can't appreciate a pretty nasty joke on Robotech...

that's exactly what I thought would be funny... hilarious!

[taksraven]

Actually, as far as I'm aware the "thinking cap" is something McKinney came up with.

Carl Macek gabbled on a bit about protoculture causing an "empathetic" link between man and machine, but it was the McKinney novels that made it a piece of technology integral to the control of a battroid. Of course, even Robotech fans are quick to shoot that one down, citing the fact that neither the dialogue nor the animation supports the existence of such a technology in the series. There was actually a big, overly verbose thread about it not too long ago.

I think that you are right about that being a McKinney concept. It was one of THE most annoying aspects of the novels (which took tons of liberties anyway) and it was very poor writing.

Taksraven

[Sir Galahad®]

Whoops my mistake.... Yeah it was Jack McKinney

[DarrinG]

Relax, I was just being scarastic. I think the hover tech could work well as long as their is a decent explanation like hover technology lifted from SDF-1 and/or Zentradi ships. When I first saw RT on Cartoon Network I honestly thought I was watching a different show when it moved to the SC saga because of the huge change in the charaters and background, obviously for a LAM2 things would be changed to suit the transition better.

Cool - I agree. We're also speaking about things that have almost no chance of happening. As in getting the first LAM actually made, and then it being successful enough they make another, an then WB choosing to actually follow the Robotech story and use some of the SC characters in a second movie, etc etc.

IF I was in the creative dept at WB, and IF this all happened, I would certainly push to have the 15 squad in Monsters, Tomahawks and the like - getting decimated by the new Bioroids. The "Masters" would be basically more advanced 'supreme' micronized Zentradi. Almost ALL portions of SC would be avoided except a very cool version of the hovertanks coming out 3 quarters into the flick. This would make sense as they would base their new hover technology on what they see in the Bioroids.

The body armor developed for the new hovertank 15th squad would be a cross between Macross and Mospeada to make the jump to the ride armor suit more realistic in the 3rd movie. No winged helmets please.

Again - IF, IF, IF . . .

[DarrinG]

What I like about Robotech is that it can take 20 years off and do the following...

Jasonc - I enjoy reading your posts because you make clear points and seem to actually have some first hand knowledge when you write, but can you re-set your relationship to some of the HG folks so I know better where you're coming from?

I agree that R:SC blew - all but about 8 minutes sucked, but what would you like to see happen with the LAM and SR projects? Is there a cool way they could do it in your opinion (other than not doing them at all and repenting for all past sins of sucky production work) ??

[Roy Focker]

I agree that R:SC blew

It blew your Fricken Mind You Mean

[RavenHawk]

Whoops my mistake.... Yeah it was Jack McKinney

This seems to be one of the main misconceptions that people who hate McKinney but love the animation seem to have spread around. You know, the whole argument that "this can't be, because it wasn't in the original animation."

Ok, forget for a second about Macross, just think Robotech. Robotech is a new story using the old animation, so just because something didn't exist in Macross, doesn't mean that it can't exist in Robotech. It just means it can't exist in the animation for Robotech, since that is all taken from Macross.

The surviving half of McKinney has said in a number of different interviews that the thinking caps were Macek's idea, since he didn't like how the mecha were controlled in the animation, but since he couldn't change the animation, there was nothing he could do about it. So, based upon Macek's suggestion, thinking caps became a part of the novels.

I'm not saying you have to like it, but let's not blame those writers for putting in a concept that the show's "creator" asked them to.

[akt_m]

You mean like this?

http://www.geocities.com/spiffy5181/vf11.html

WHAT IS WORSE:

Robotech ® is the property of Harmony Gold. This document is in no way intended to infringe upon their rights.

"Big West what???"

[Mr March]

I guess you could argue that Robotech fans are only emulating the show's creators when they're stealing everything that isn't nailed down and/or on fire and trying to graft it onto Robotech. These days, it's virtually impossible to find a Robotech fansite that hasn't stolen something from one of the later Macross shows, or any of a host of other mecha shows. Even the much-lauded (among RT fans) Unofficial Robotech Reference Guide includes a bunch of mecha that aren't even in Robotech. The sad part is it's one of the more conservative ones... I've seen Robotech fans trying to incorporate mecha, characters, and stories from as far afield as Neon Genesis Evangelion and Godannar.

Like Turkish Star Wars!

But seriously, I agree. That's the reason I don't respect Robotech. To celebrate Robotech is to give credence to this kind of forced bastardization of other creator's unique fictional worlds. These creators worked hard to make their own distinct stories and find a voice for their own creations. To homogenize them together with each other is a disservice to the creativity of these writers/directors and penalizes them for trying to creatively distinguish their works. We have enough unimaginative, forgettable entertainment in this world without diminishing legitimately creative works in ridiculous snake oil productions like Robotech.

[jenius]

Like Turkish Star Wars!

But seriously, I agree. That's the reason I don't respect Robotech. To celebrate Robotech is to give credence to this kind of forced bastardization of other creator's unique fictional worlds. These creators worked hard to make their own distinct stories and find a voice for their own creations. To homogenize them together with each other is a disservice to the creativity of these writers/directors and penalizes them for trying to creatively distinguish their works. We have enough unimaginative, forgettable entertainment in this world without diminishing legitimately creative works in ridiculous snake oil productions like Robotech.

We all create the stories we read, not the authors... the authors just put us on a path. Many of these shows aren't at all what their creators wanted them to be but then some suit told them "make this so we can sell more that!" The final versions of the shows ended up often being nothing at all like they were originally envisioned. So, an author can intend for something to be one way but have it interpreted another, an author can envision a story and have it changed by outside forces to meet other demands, and then an author can have his work merged with others to create something completely new... and most of this is all crafted from previous stories that inspired the author in the first place.

[Einherjar]

I guess you could argue that Robotech fans are only emulating the show's creators when they're stealing everything that isn't nailed down and/or on fire and trying to graft it onto Robotech. These days, it's virtually impossible to find a Robotech fansite that hasn't stolen something from one of the later Macross shows, or any of a host of other mecha shows. Even the much-lauded (among RT fans) Unofficial Robotech Reference Guide includes a bunch of mecha that aren't even in Robotech. The sad part is it's one of the more conservative ones... I've seen Robotech fans trying to incorporate mecha, characters, and stories from as far afield as Neon Genesis Evangelion and Godannar.

I can understand if fans want to use the Macross mecha for the RPG, but to make up stories to make it fit into the universe is too much. It might be imitating the Palladium gaming experience, but they don't really have to Robotech everything for it to work. With this thinking, I'm waiting for someone to adapt the MacF stuff as anti-Invid mecha, etc. It would be okay if they acknowledge the source material instead of relaying everything to HG. Also, spell check can do wonders for these sites.

Btw, from canon and fansites, how many wars have there been now and when will they end?

EDIT: Making statistics are fine to play with the mecha in game, but not the lengths the backstories made for these mecha are changed.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Einherjar

[Mr March]

The Robotech edit was deliberately made from the completed works; it wasn't editing a process.

[Macross007]

Someone should open a MacrossFanPlus account!!

I was going to flame him, but i decided to leave the task to JamesBond77.

Come on dude, help him a little bit.

[Macross007]

You mean like this?

http://www.geocities.com/spiffy5181/vf11.html

This is another disgusting poo from pathetic and lunatic Robocrap fans who are obviously jealous of Macross, but hopefully the website is going down. Can't access the VF-1 and VF-19 pages.

[Macross007]

Yeah, like that...except I saw a far loopier one that I can't seem to locate now, that included the Zeta Gundam, the Double Zeta, and the FAZZ...it gave Robotech-related backstories for them and everything.

Of course, for pure loopiness, it's hard to beat this:

http://www.geocities.com/mylenebowman/robotech-hist.html

[Macross007]

WHAT IS WORSE:

Robotech ® is the property of Harmony Gold. This document is in no way intended to infringe upon their rights.

"Big West what???"

Can someone hack that page ?

[Jasonc]

Jasonc - I enjoy reading your posts because you make clear points and seem to actually have some first hand knowledge when you write, but can you re-set your relationship to some of the HG folks so I know better where you're coming from?

My background. For a decent time, I was in very good standing with Tommy, Steve, and staff. I used to throw these gtherings twice a year that everyone would show up to. During these times, I used to get "privilidged info" from them. I was also one of the mods on their site for a period of time, and in various conversations with Tommy, I did get quite a bit of info. Lots of other info also came from just being around people who knew things about what was going on. Nothing really in depth, or necessarily too secretive came from them, but over time, if you put 1 and 1 together (what current staff would say, what privilidged fans would say, and what other people in the industry would say), the facts would simply just present themselves.

I also have/had a contact at Funimation. During the final days before RTSC came out, I used to get info from this person. When RTSC was said to come out in I think February, instead of December the previous year, it was my contact (and the internet to confirm) that said it was due to Wal Mart not having retail space until after the holiday season. I guess that liitle bit of unimportant info got HG in a huff, but nevertheless, it was already on the net. Anyways, my last quote from that email is from this said contact. Lots of good info there.

I'd probably say that most of my info came from other contacts related to HG, than HG themselves. Tommy and staff, at times, did give me some privilidged info, but it wasn't anything that could really damage them. Knowing people in the "industry" for whatever that means kinda helps, too. So, there you have it.

[Freiflug88]

Wow. Gone for a night and the thread has grown by two pages.

Someone already beat you to the punch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edEsn01OFbs...feature=related

I thought it was hilarious...but apparently there are a bunch of people with no sense of humor who inexplicably love Macross.

Or maybe everyone is so used to HG ripping off everything that isn't nailed down, that they can't appreciate a pretty nasty joke on Robotech...

Nope! I already made a youtube and Gmail account under MacrossFanPlus! The youtube vid is titled MACROSS FLONTIER+My Time to Be A Star.

I am disappointed they no really puts effort went into these vids, then again its probably because video editing is a hobby of mine. Seeing these lame vids wants me to make a several well made videos I have had in mind for awhile. Once there done I will have them posted for you guys of course.

I guess you could argue that Robotech fans are only emulating the show's creators when they're stealing everything that isn't nailed down and/or on fire and trying to graft it onto Robotech. These days, it's virtually impossible to find a Robotech fansite that hasn't stolen something from one of the later Macross shows, or any of a host of other mecha shows. Even the much-lauded (among RT fans) Unofficial Robotech Reference Guide includes a bunch of mecha that aren't even in Robotech. The sad part is it's one of the more conservative ones... I've seen Robotech fans trying to incorporate mecha, characters, and stories from as far afield as Neon Genesis Evangelion and Godannar.

Its one thing to create cross-universes such as Super Robot Wars does, but to graft other Macross shows to Robotech rather then admitting their separate is just sad.

WHAT IS WORSE:

Robotech ® is the property of Harmony Gold. This document is in no way intended to infringe upon their rights.

"Big West what???"

Can someone hack that page ? dry.gif

http://www.geocities.com/spiffy5181/vf11-1.jpg

LMAO! Isamo, ANTI-UTG, or even UTG forces is not mentioned once once in the actual text. Yet they make such posts as:

-The VF-11 however was not finished as it again saw service in the front lines in the Fourth Robotech War against the Marduk and the Varauta War in 2064 but was shown to be inferior in all cases to the most enemy mecha.

-The VF-11K was designed as Sound Force Mecha and had a speaker gunpod and four internal missile launchers and a Sound Energy System as well as a guitar stick control systems

Don't worry Macross007, the website hasn't been updated since January 21, 2002 and several of the pages are already gone. The website is dying a slow and painful death... like all things Robotech.

If only my avatar could do more then just look cool and deliver actually headshots ("Kopfschuss") to kill websites... Just think of how much better the internet would be without Robotrash.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Freiflug88

[Seto Kaiba]

Can someone hack that page ?

Why go that far? Just file a copyright infringement claim against the site with Yahoo! Geocities.

Its one thing to create cross-universes such as Super Robot Wars does, but to graft other Macross shows to Robotech rather then admitting their separate is just sad.

It's really an odd dichotomy. Robotech fans so often profess to hate Macross and regard many Macross fans as elitist, but so many of them spend their free time trying to expand the Robotech universe by grafting mechanical designs, characters, and stories from unrelated universes onto Robotech's original series.

As I've illustrated in the past, there is that small segment of Robotech fans who are convinced that Macross is a ripoff of Robotech. I also know a few groups of Robotech fans who are convinced that the best way for Robotech to move forward is to rewrite more of Macross. It's these two groups that indulge in the blatant and often senseless practice of trying to rewrite and incorporate the rest of Macross into Robotech's universe, and occasionally other shows as well.

Possibly the least offensive of the Unofficial Robotech Reference Guide, which openly admits that it isn't intended to be a reference for the "official" Robotech universe, but rather is an overly detailed supplement to their series of fan fiction. What makes them stand out is that they pursued it from a scholarly angle, and that there are very few mecha included that do not belong to the animation used in Robotech's original series (the VF-4 Siren/Lightning III being the only one that leaps to mind). All the same, many Robotech fans don't seem to realize that it its articles aren't intended to apply to Robotech itself, and keep trying to cite it as some grand official source to rival the Macross Compendium.

[DarrinG]

My background. For a decent time, I was in very good standing with Tommy, Steve, and staff. I used to throw these gtherings twice a year . . . Knowing people in the "industry" for whatever that means kinda helps, too. So, there you have it.

Very cool. I wish you were closer to Cleveland, I would buy you a few drinks and hear some stories. I've always wondered what some of the HG folks personal collections were like. If they had oodles of original cells and things I could never get my hands on, and what they were like personally to deal with.

But never mind Robotech vs Macross for a second -- we all know its going to be the CAVS vs Lakers in the finals . . .

[Einherjar]

-The VF-11 however was not finished as it again saw service in the front lines in the Fourth Robotech War against the Marduk and the Varauta War in 2064 but was shown to be inferior in all cases to the most enemy mecha.

-The VF-11K was designed as Sound Force Mecha and had a speaker gunpod and four internal missile launchers and a Sound Energy System as well as a guitar stick control systems

How convenient, all mecha from shows made after Mospeada are inferior, cost effective, or plain ridiculous to use over the Alpha and Beta. Guess that explains why people think those ships are still the best and why the Robotech Masters overpower everything else.

And their time line goes beyond 2060?

[Freiflug88]

that there are very few mecha included that do not belong to the animation used in Robotech's original series (the VF-4 Siren/Lightning III being the only one that leaps to mind).

Lighting III is there in SDF Macross, Robotech, and even DYRL, but only as a mere model.