Robotech and HG license debates

[yellowlightman]

I dunno. What anime magazine would be best, and how much do they charge for a full-page ad?

Well, considering that there are only two anime magazines left in the US (well, one's technically Canadian) it shouldn't be too hard to pick!

[VFTF1]

They have Kaifun as page mascot?

Pete

[Einherjar]

Well, considering that there are only two anime magazines left in the US (well, one's technically Canadian) it shouldn't be too hard to pick!

One of them is Protoculture Addicts, so that just leaves one.

[Seto Kaiba]

It's great jokes like that, that are really pushing Robotech forward and helping the fanbase grow. I'm sure that's what they spent 12 months working on.

Don't knock it... it shows the quality of their writing has improved dramatically.

Edited April 2, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[MacrossMan]

Don't knock it... it shows the quality of their writing has improved dramatically.

Aight, so I imagine this has been asked a million times on this website and I can probably get to root of the problem by reading through this thread. Fact is; I don't have time and more importantly I don't want to go through all the "crap" of opinions. So if someone could please post a simple description as to what the problme is with Harmony Gold and Big West!

[Gubaba]

Aight, so I imagine this has been asked a million times on this website and I can probably get to root of the problem by reading through this thread. Fact is; I don't have time and more importantly I don't want to go through all the "crap" of opinions. So if someone could please post a simple description as to what the problme is with Harmony Gold and Big West!

The difficulty in explaining everything is that most of the problem lies with contracts that nobody outside of the respective parties has seen, so any time someone posts what they know (or think they know) about it, there's a lot of speculation attached.

Here are the undisputed facts, although I'm not too sure of the dates.

In the '80s, Harmony Gold bought the rights to SDFM from Tatsunoko.

In the early '90s, U.S. Renditions brought out Macross II, Streamline brought out the Robotech Perfect Collection, and Manga Ent. brought out Macross Plus. No legal rumblings were heard.

In the late 90's, HG sent cease and desist orders to some vendors selling Macross merchandise in the U.S. and squashed plans to release Macross Plus toys in the U.S. as well. And Big West and Tatsunoko had their big legal fight over ownership of SDFM, which lasted a while.

In 1999, AnimEigo released the SDFM DVD Box Set, using masters provided to them by HG.

In the early 2000s, the BW/Tats lawsuit ended. Big West ended up with the rights to the designs, story, concepts, and characters; Tatsunoko ended up with the rights to the actual film of the TV show. TokyoPop annouced they would be working with HG to bring over Macross 7 Trash, but that failed to materialize. HG trademarked the name Macross in the U.S. (and perhaps in other places as well).

Since 1995 (with the Macross Plus Movie), no new Macross title has been released in the U.S. And there are apparently no plans to release Frontier. HG has gone on record saying they would be happy to release them.

And that's it. Everything else is assumption and inference.

Edited April 4, 2009 by Gubaba

[Einherjar]

Is it fair to say that HG is still mooching off the Macross franchise and others without making their own stuff, more or less?

[Gubaba]

Is it fair to say that HG is still mooching off the Macross franchise and others without making their own stuff, more or less?

I'm not sure how, really. They get a cut from ADV's SDFM set, I'm sure; they're still selling the AnimEigo set. They have the Toynami Masterpiece Editions. But I don't think they get a cut from Manga's MII or M+ releases, and they're CERTAINLY not getting a cut from import toys, models, books, CDs, and DVDs.

So no, they're not making much of their own stuff, and I'm sure they're making a bit of money from the SDFM TV series, but they're not making as much as they could be making, based on how much Macross is actually out there.

Mostly, I think they're just making damn sure that nobody ELSE is profiting off of Macross in the U.S.

[Einherjar]

I wasn't thinking about it money-wise, but that makes sense. Don't forget about Palladium Books too.

I was thinking reputation-wise, mooching off Macross and the other series used? Like all the characters, mecha, etc. when they just paid for and changed info from the original material to fit their needs.

[Seto Kaiba]

Is it fair to say that HG is still mooching off the Macross franchise and others without making their own stuff, more or less?

Sort of yes, sort of no...

After work on Robotech II: the Sentinels was aborted in 1987, Harmony Gold more or less gave up trying to make new material on their own, so they attacked the only area where they showed a consistent profit... comic books. Of course, if you know anything about Harmony Gold's history... you'll know that they even managed to cock that up pretty badly.

In 1988, Harmony Gold handed the Robotech license to Malibu imprint Eternity Comics. Malibu proceeded to pick up the Sentinels story right where it left off in the animation, and turned out a series of extremely poor comic books that didn't sell very well. They made a brief attempt to milk the Macross side of the story for cash with Robotech: Return to Macross. When Marvel bought Malibu Comics in 1994, they shut down the Eternity imprint, and the Robotech license was picked up by Academy Comics.

Academy Comics, an independent publisher, unwisely attempted to pick up the Robotech II: the Sentinels comics right where Eternity/Malibu had left off, and managed to do an even worse job with the art and writing than Eternity did. Many of their comics, including Robotech: Destroid, Robotech: the Misfits, and Robotech: Mechangel frequently contained art blatantly traced from Macross animation, products, and publications. To give you an idea of how bad it was... Robotech: the Misfits blatantly traced the VF-4 from Flashback 2012, but rebadged it "U.S. Spacy", and also borrowed several characters from Macross Plus, including Captain Higgins. In 1996, after several writers jumped ship when their projects were canceled, Harmony Gold revoked Academy's license, causing the company to fold in short order.

The next idiots to be given the license were perhaps the worst offenders prior to Tommy Yune... Antarctic Press, who had the Robotech license from 1997 to 1998. Antarctic had the unpleasant tendency to treat contemporary movies and TV shows like a free idea bucket. Much of their mecha art was blatantly traced from DYRL product boxes and artbooks, and many of their characters were traced from popular movies. One of their worst titles was a two-issue series called Robotech: Wings of Gibraltar which stole most of its mecha designs from DYRL, and most of its character designs from Independence Day (going so far as to TRACE Brent Spiner's character). These comics were received so poorly by the fans that there was actually jubilation when several titles were canceled early into their runs. Many of their titles were blatant attempts to milk the original Macross series for more money... and had the lamentable tendency to promise the moon with action-packed cover art, but incredibly boring and poorly drawn contents. Harmony Gold revoked their license in 1998 and never bothered telling them why.

In 2002, when Harmony Gold decided to have another stab at comics, they contracted with Wildstorm and put Tommy Yune in charge. Naturally, with Harmony Gold having tighter creative control they stuck to what they knew would sell, endless retreads of Macross events, and side stories based on the Macross original series. In this case, the powers that be apparently were watching Macross Zero, because their first title was a prequel comic that was set during the development of the VF-1. For two miniseries, they milked Macross, then decided to have a stab at an artbook, then went to suckle the teats of Mospeada in preparation for the eminently craptacular Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles.

Starting in Robotech: Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles, the last of Wildstorm's Robotech comics, an odd trend started with regard to Macross intellectual property... it started to disappear. Many of the Robotech equivalents of Macross characters either died, went missing, or were totally remodeled to the point where they bore no resemblance at all to their Macross origins. In the span of the five-issue miniseries, Breetai (Vrlitwhai), Exedore (Exsedol), and possibly Dr. Lang (SDF-1's chief engineer) were all killed, Lisa (Misa) was critically injured and spent most of her time uninvolved in the story, Rick (Hikaru) was completely remodeled to the point where he looks like Hideo Kuze from Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex 2nd gig, and Max and Miriya (Milia) mysteriously failed to appear. Minmay made a brief appearance, but was obscured from view in all but two panels, both of which were in the last issue.

This odd trend of avoiding Macross intellectual property at all costs has led more than a few people to suspect that the powers that be at Harmony Gold might have been gently encouraged to stay the hell away from the character designs and other intellectual property from the original Macross series in their ongoing works. Either that or the powers that be at Harmony Gold have decided on their own power to avoid a potential lawsuit and accusations that all they know how to do is milk Macross to death by getting away from Macross.

So yes, in terms of intellectual property usage... it's only very recently that Harmony Gold has loosened their death grip on Macross. Most of their toys are still either blatantly relabeled copies of Macross merch, or stuff they themselves have imported.

(PS: If you actually read all that without needing to stop and take a breather... bravo...)

Edited April 5, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Bri]

It's a positive sign imo that HG is slowly moving away from anything Macross related.

However I think the previous post in its anger towards HG is a bit unfair towards some of the comic book companies. I'm a fan of some Antartic Presses works and calling them idiots and copycats doesn't do them justice, in fact Robotech: Rolling Thunder by Fred Perry is easily the best RT renditions I have seen sofar and he is a pretty good on mecha in general.

[Einherjar]

Starting in Robotech: Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles, the last of Wildstorm's Robotech comics, an odd trend started with regard to Macross intellectual property... it started to disappear. Many of the Robotech equivalents of Macross characters either died, went missing, or were totally remodeled to the point where they bore no resemblance at all to their Macross origins. In the span of the five-issue miniseries, Breetai (Vrlitwhai), Exedore (Exsedol), and possibly Dr. Lang (SDF-1's chief engineer) were all killed, Lisa (Misa) was critically injured and spent most of her time uninvolved in the story, Rick (Hikaru) was completely remodeled to the point where he looks like Hideo Kuze from Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex 2nd gig, and Max and Miriya (Milia) mysteriously failed to appear. Minmay made a brief appearance, but was obscured from view in all but two panels, both of which were in the last issue.

Gruesome way for the Macross crew to go, it probably should have happened to Minmay as well. I don't hate her, just that her treatment after Macross, from what I heard, is truly depressing and would have been more merciful.

[Gubaba]

Gruesome way for the Macross crew to go, it probably should have happened to Minmay as well. I don't hate her, just that her treatment after Macross, from what I heard, is truly depressing and would have been more merciful.

But EVERYBODY hates Robotech Minmay! It's the American Way!

[yellowlightman]

In 1988, Harmony Gold handed the Robotech license to Malibu imprint Eternity Comics. Malibu proceeded to pick up the Sentinels story right where it left off in the animation, and turned out a series of extremely poor comic books that didn't sell very well. They made a brief attempt to milk the Macross side of the story for cash with Robotech: Return to Macross. When Marvel bought Malibu Comics in 1994, they shut down the Eternity imprint, and the Robotech license was picked up by Academy Comics.

The Sentinels comics were generally well received by fans, and it must have been considering the series ran for over 70 issues. Return to Macross was "brief" in that it ran for over 35 issues.

Academy Comics, an independent publisher, unwisely attempted to pick up the Robotech II: the Sentinels comics right where Eternity/Malibu had left off, and managed to do an even worse job with the art and writing than Eternity did.

The art remained the same throughout the Sentinels series, as the same artists (the Waltrip brothers) were on board from issue #1 until Academy published the last issue around issue #72. They handled the writing as well for the Academy run, although I'm not sure if they had started writing the series near the end of it's Eternity run.

[Seto Kaiba]

The Sentinels comics were generally well received by fans, and it must have been considering the series ran for over 70 issues. Return to Macross was "brief" in that it ran for over 35 issues.

Even bad cooking will be well received by a starving man.

Likewise, the Robotech fanbase has a long history of eagerly snapping up any new release, no matter how awful, simply because it's something new. That particular tendency has only gotten worse in recent years, with the release of that bland-a-thon epic Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles.

The art remained the same throughout the Sentinels series, as the same artists (the Waltrip brothers) were on board from issue #1 until Academy published the last issue around issue #72. They handled the writing as well for the Academy run, although I'm not sure if they had started writing the series near the end of it's Eternity run.

Perhaps my wording was a bit unclear... while the art quality of the Sentinels comics remained consistently mediocre, the average art quality in Robotech comics dropped with each change in publishers... a trend that only ended when Wildstorm got the license.

[Einherjar]

Likewise, the Robotech fanbase has a long history of eagerly snapping up any new release, no matter how awful, simply because it's something new. That particular tendency has only gotten worse in recent years, with the release of that bland-a-thon epic Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles.

What's up with that anyway? The fanbase is either the most patient people I've seen online waiting for a sequel or very desperate about Robotech that they'll take anything. They're even okay with adapting material from later Macross titles and other series into it to expand the convoluted universe.

[Seto Kaiba]

What's up with that anyway? The fanbase is either the most patient people I've seen online waiting for a sequel or very desperate about Robotech that they'll take anything. They're even okay with adapting material from later Macross titles and other series into it to expand the convoluted universe.

I wish I knew.

I've been a regular on Robotech.com for something like six years now and I still haven't figured that one out. The fanbase there is mainly people who saw the show during the original run in the 80's, or on Cartoon Network in the 90's, mixed with some people from countries where it recently aired, and some people who've been introduced to it by friends. As to why they're so devoted to a franchise that has essentially been dead since 1987, I can't say. Many fans on Robotech.com are genuinely in denial about that fact, a problem exacerbated by Kevin McKeever's repeated insistence that the franchise is healthy and quite profitable. Of course, that is errant nonsense. Anybody with an ounce of common sense can figure out that it doesn't take a healthy franchise four tries and twenty years to produce its first viable sequel.

A good portion of the fans there seem to be sticking with it out of nostalgia, while others are either obsessed with finding out what happened to the remaining Macross characters aboard the SDF-3, and a few others are clinging to it out of some bizarre persecution complex, since Robotech is generally not a welcome subject with anime or American animation enthusiasts, and a good number of them are hanging on because they're largely ignorant about anime, and haven't been introduced to something better yet.

Some of the more "enthusiastic" Robotech fans have this odd tendency to take the matter of expanding the universe into their own hands, by "adopting" mecha from other shows and giving them new Robotech backstories. I've seen various Robotech fan-fiction groups and unofficial reference guides adopt mecha from both Macross timelines, Gundam, Patlabor, Outlaw Star, Full Metal Panic!, and even Neon Genesis Evangelion. A lot of it is done for the sake of the Robotech RPG, but some of it (like the URRG) seems to be collateral damage from using Macross artbooks to fill in the gaps in Robotech's mecha info.

By the way, you wouldn't also happen to be a regular on RT.com? There used to be a group there called the Einherjar. Any connection?

Edited April 5, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[VFTF1]

As to why they're so devoted to a franchise that has essentially been dead since 1987, I can't say.

In fairness, there was a lull in the Transformers franchise when the cartoon went off the air in 87 and then the Marvels comics were canceled in 89. At that point - nothing new came out in America until G2 hit the shelves. I was in Europe by 1990, and happily had the UK Classics and Overlord/Motorvators and later Aquaspeeders/Stormtroopers etc - but there was no new story material.

However, during this lull, there were many devoted fans and the fanfiction they produced during this period and just after is classic.

So - there's nothing wrong with being devoted to dead francises. It can often be wonderfully fulfilling.

Problem (IMO) with Robotech is that it was never really 'alive' to begin with insofar as it's "not real"

Many fans on Robotech.com are genuinely in denial about that fact, a problem exacerbated by Kevin McKeever's repeated insistence that the franchise is healthy and quite profitable. Of course, that is errant nonsense. Anybody with an ounce of common sense can figure out that it doesn't take a healthy franchise four tries and twenty years to produce its first viable sequel.

Yeah - but again - I personally don't hold this against them. If something is cool, I don't care if it has one fan or one million fans. Cult classics are wonderful. However, I find it hard to have even an ounce of enthusiasm for Robotech given that it is fake. It was a convoluted vehicle for introducing anime to the USA - that's the nicest thing I can say about it.

others are either obsessed with finding out what happened to the remaining Macross characters aboard the SDF-3

These are the most amusing folks IMO Bad enough that WE as Macross fans obsess over fictional characters like Minmey and Ranka etc - but imagine - Robotech fans obsess over FICTIONAL FICTIONAL CHARACTERS. I mean - of course there is no such person as Hikaru Ichijo - but there is NO SUCH ANIMATED CHARACTER AS RICK HUNTER!

A fiction over a fiction - boggles the mind

Pete

[Einherjar]

By the way, you wouldn't also happen to be a regular on RT.com? There used to be a group there called the Einherjar. Any connection?

Yeah, I'm not a member, but I've been going there looking what's happening there for a while. Didn't think people were well verse in Norse mythology there... or actually played Valkyrie Profile.

Truth is Robotech never caught my attention at all. I knew about it's colorful history and just ignored it all these years. But when Frontier came out I really had to ask myself, "Why is this definitely never leaving Japan?" Then everything became underwhelming with Robotech turning out to be a generic series with lots of borrowed stuff. Add to that some cliche sci-fi stuff in the expanded universe and it started looking like a shallow franchise selling the same stuff for 20+ years. It's not like Macross, where they improve stuff while sticking to the traditions of the series. Here they're still using the Alpha, Beta, and space helicopter from the 80s while hammering on about, "We Will Win." Also, can't forget about the spacism people are totally fine with too. This is what HG is forcing on people as a alternative superior version.

And the fandom? It's hard to believe they called Macross fans elitist, because that's mostly what I see from them online. Maybe it's a bad year for Robotech and they're being vocal about it, but I guess that's the case whenever another Macross series or botched production comes along. On the other hand, they're stuck with years where HG does very little for them at all as well. Regardless of its history, many fans will stick to it until the end even if they have to do things themselves. That's usually a noble thing to do in my eyes, but here it just makes them look like Robotools to me.

[Totoro242]

Sort of yes, sort of no...

After work on Robotech II: the Sentinels was aborted in 1987, Harmony Gold more or less gave up trying to make new material on their own, so they attacked the only area where they showed a consistent profit... comic books. Of course, if you know anything about Harmony Gold's history... you'll know that they even managed to cock that up pretty badly.

In 1988, Harmony Gold handed the Robotech license to Malibu imprint Eternity Comics. Malibu proceeded to pick up the Sentinels story right where it left off in the animation, and turned out a series of extremely poor comic books that didn't sell very well. They made a brief attempt to milk the Macross side of the story for cash with Robotech: Return to Macross. When Marvel bought Malibu Comics in 1994, they shut down the Eternity imprint, and the Robotech license was picked up by Academy Comics.

Academy Comics, an independent publisher, unwisely attempted to pick up the Robotech II: the Sentinels comics right where Eternity/Malibu had left off, and managed to do an even worse job with the art and writing than Eternity did. Many of their comics, including Robotech: Destroid, Robotech: the Misfits, and Robotech: Mechangel frequently contained art blatantly traced from Macross animation, products, and publications. To give you an idea of how bad it was... Robotech: the Misfits blatantly traced the VF-4 from Flashback 2012, but rebadged it "U.S. Spacy", and also borrowed several characters from Macross Plus, including Captain Higgins. In 1996, after several writers jumped ship when their projects were canceled, Harmony Gold revoked Academy's license, causing the company to fold in short order.

The next idiots to be given the license were perhaps the worst offenders prior to Tommy Yune... Antarctic Press, who had the Robotech license from 1997 to 1998. Antarctic had the unpleasant tendency to treat contemporary movies and TV shows like a free idea bucket. Much of their mecha art was blatantly traced from DYRL product boxes and artbooks, and many of their characters were traced from popular movies. One of their worst titles was a two-issue series called Robotech: Wings of Gibraltar which stole most of its mecha designs from DYRL, and most of its character designs from Independence Day (going so far as to TRACE Brent Spiner's character). These comics were received so poorly by the fans that there was actually jubilation when several titles were canceled early into their runs. Many of their titles were blatant attempts to milk the original Macross series for more money... and had the lamentable tendency to promise the moon with action-packed cover art, but incredibly boring and poorly drawn contents. Harmony Gold revoked their license in 1998 and never bothered telling them why.

In 2002, when Harmony Gold decided to have another stab at comics, they contracted with Wildstorm and put Tommy Yune in charge. Naturally, with Harmony Gold having tighter creative control they stuck to what they knew would sell, endless retreads of Macross events, and side stories based on the Macross original series. In this case, the powers that be apparently were watching Macross Zero, because their first title was a prequel comic that was set during the development of the VF-1. For two miniseries, they milked Macross, then decided to have a stab at an artbook, then went to suckle the teats of Mospeada in preparation for the eminently craptacular Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles.

Starting in Robotech: Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles, the last of Wildstorm's Robotech comics, an odd trend started with regard to Macross intellectual property... it started to disappear. Many of the Robotech equivalents of Macross characters either died, went missing, or were totally remodeled to the point where they bore no resemblance at all to their Macross origins. In the span of the five-issue miniseries, Breetai (Vrlitwhai), Exedore (Exsedol), and possibly Dr. Lang (SDF-1's chief engineer) were all killed, Lisa (Misa) was critically injured and spent most of her time uninvolved in the story, Rick (Hikaru) was completely remodeled to the point where he looks like Hideo Kuze from Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex 2nd gig, and Max and Miriya (Milia) mysteriously failed to appear. Minmay made a brief appearance, but was obscured from view in all but two panels, both of which were in the last issue.

This odd trend of avoiding Macross intellectual property at all costs has led more than a few people to suspect that the powers that be at Harmony Gold might have been gently encouraged to stay the hell away from the character designs and other intellectual property from the original Macross series in their ongoing works. Either that or the powers that be at Harmony Gold have decided on their own power to avoid a potential lawsuit and accusations that all they know how to do is milk Macross to death by getting away from Macross.

So yes, in terms of intellectual property usage... it's only very recently that Harmony Gold has loosened their death grip on Macross. Most of their toys are still either blatantly relabeled copies of Macross merch, or stuff they themselves have imported.

(PS: If you actually read all that without needing to stop and take a breather... bravo...)

The Sentinels comic picked up within months of the last issue of Comico's The Macross Saga #36. Its even announced in TMS #36. HG never "gave up" and "attacked" comic books, the comics just kept going.

For anyone who actually reads the comics, The Sentinels and The Invid War are considered the best comic books of the entire run. If you know your comic history, the art and story are consistantly as good as any other independant American manga produced during this time. Also if you know your history you will know that the entire comic book industry peaked and began a massive decline in the middle of 1994. By 1995 volumes of comic titles were being cancelled and every comic saw declining sales. The Robotech comics dried up as interest in the original series waned, interest in comics took a nose-dive, and HG lost interest and gave the comic book companies free reign. All of these reasons contributed to the decline of Robotech comics.

The Eternity Sentinels comic restarted the story based on the original scripts, the McKinney novels, and their own added elements.

Sentinels Book One sold extremely well for an independent title, warranting second printings of the first two issues. A comic book series that ran for 75 issues for eight years and produced a myriad of spin-offs must not have been "poor" and must have sold well. That the Sentinels partially weathered the comic book crash of 1995-1996 is a testament to this point.

As far as “milking Macross for cash”, the comics explored just about every aspect of all three TV series, not just Macross, so I don’t see the point you are making.

Marvel bought Malibu to acquire technical staff and skilled colorists. They decided not to acquire Eternity which was heavy with licensed titles and B&W independent flavorings. Not really Marvels cup of tea. The Robotech staff simply formed with another company, changed the name to Academy, and transferred the license and titles to the new company.

If you talk to any of these artists that used DYRL designs you will find that many of them are huge SDF Macross and DYRL fans. One artist is even a regular on these boards. Their choice of using these designs was because they liked the art and wanted to pay homage. At this point in the comics history, HG was hardly monitoring the license and the artists and writers went with what they felt was right. This was also the period where Macross II and Plus were released. No harm done.

No writers "jumped ship" to cause HG to revoke the Academy license, but rather Ben Dunn (who had made a bid for the Robotech comic license back in 1988) made a stronger pitch for the license when it next came up for renewal. He offered better sales through his distribution, flashy CG covers, more money, and a color format; and HG fell for it.

Cant argue with much of your criticism of Antarctic’s run. Ben Dunn is an admitted DYRL fanatic and felt obligated to use those designs. I'd hardly call that "attempts to milk the original", but rather, he thought he knew what the fans wanted and failed miserably. He really dicked up what was left of the comics license. Its painfully obvious by what you stated above why the Antarctic license was revoked. No one in business revokes a license without giving a reason and of course Antarctic knew why the license was revoked.

There were 4 titles, one of which was a prequel (obviously since Macross comes first it involved many Macross characters), one was Macross based, another New Generation, and the last bridged the Sentinels with the Shadow Chronicles series. I'd hardly call that "endless retreads of Macross events".

Robotech comics have a long history of prequel stories starting with the original Graphic Novel in 1987 to Return to Macross to The Legend Of Zor. Return to Macross also chronicles the period during the VF-1 development. No one saw Macross Zero when those were planned.

The Mospeada derived mini-series was in support of the (albeit terrible) Invasion video game, not a lead-in to Prelude.

Its no secret that HG cannot make animated sequels to Macross. Its no great revelation that the Prelude comic didn’t dwell on any Macross characters. Maybe you were surprised by this, but the rest of us saw this coming a mile away. Everyone knew it was a lead-in to an animated sequel, which could not have Macross characters in it.

If anyone really wants to get a good idea of what a well-informed opinion of the Robotech comics looks like (the good and the bad), please check out Ravenhawks MW post:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=28822

[Seto Kaiba]

However, I find it hard to have even an ounce of enthusiasm for Robotech given that it is fake. It was a convoluted vehicle for introducing anime to the USA - that's the nicest thing I can say about it.

Granted... while I appreciate the role it played in the formation of the American anime industry, I really can't muster a lot of respect for it anymore, because the creators of Robotech have illustrated time and again that they're terrified of the prospect of developing their own stories, characters, etc. Admittedly, they have good reason to be, as every attempt they made at tell a story of their own making met with spectacular failure. That's why they've fallen back on Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, a pseudo-continuation of Robotech II: the Sentinels that would be more appropriately entitled Mospeada II: the Search for More Money.

I'm waiting for the supposedly forthcoming Robotech live-action movie not because I think it will be good, but because I'm betting it'll be the Robotech equivalent of G-Saviour... or maybe we ought to call it Plan 9 from Harmony Gold.

Yeah, I'm not a member, but I've been going there looking what's happening there for a while. Didn't think people were well verse in Norse mythology there... or actually played Valkyrie Profile.

Ah... the "Einherjar" there was a Southern Cross fangroup. Admittedly, not a very big one (as even the average Robotech fan treats that particular show like an exceptionally odious piece of roadkill).

Then everything became underwhelming with Robotech turning out to be a generic series with lots of borrowed stuff. Add to that some cliche sci-fi stuff in the expanded universe and it started looking like a shallow franchise selling the same stuff for 20+ years.

You oughta read the Sentinels comics sometime... everything that's wrong with them can be neatly encapsulated in a eight-word phrase that seems to have been the Waltrip Brothers motto... "Let's be like a bad Star Trek fanfic".

Then again, Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles can be neatly summed up with a very similar production motto... "Let's be like a bad Battlestar Galactica fanfic".

Here they're still using the Alpha, Beta, and space helicopter from the 80s while hammering on about, "We Will Win." Also, can't forget about the spacism people are totally fine with too.

Like I said to VFTF1, Harmony Gold seems to have a crippling fear of original ideas.

Every new character seems to have to have an arbitrary relation to some previous character from the original series, no matter how minor. The ones that don't are clearly marked for death... evidenced by Marcus Rush and Alex Romero, the former being the never-mentioned brother of Scott's girlfriend Marlene, and the latter being his generic wisecracking best friend who dies as predictably as the sun rising.

The only new Earth forces mecha designs are a comics-exclusive transforming jeep that I could swear I saw in an episode of one of the more recent Transformers shows, a "Super Shadow Fighter" that is visibly indistinguishable from the normal "Shadow Fighter", a Haydonite fighter that looks right out of Battlestar Galactica (apparently their resemblance to the Cylons is more than superficial), and an assortment of generic-looking boxes we're supposed to think are ships.

The music has remained similarly unoriginal, relying almost entirely on remixes of music from the original series, and people are STILL warbling those horrible Minmei songs like "Stage Fright" and "We Will Win", though admittedly they sound even worse when performed by not-terribly-talented-anything Chase Masterson.

It's hard to believe they called Macross fans elitist, because that's mostly what I see from them online.

Y'remember that persecution complex I mentioned a post or so back...

Regardless of its history, many fans will stick to it until the end even if they have to do things themselves. That's usually a noble thing to do in my eyes, but here it just makes them look like Robotools to me.

For me, the hilarious part of this is that I am routinely pestered by the fans on Robotech.com to provide information and lineart for various unofficial attempts to provide a more comprehensive resource about Robotech's characters and mecha. In fact, not two days ago I was asked by one of the moderators to contribute information and art to what amounts to a Robotech imitation of Macross Chronicle.

Out of sheer bloody-minded frustration with their incessant whining, and since I don't think I could get away with that many murders, I've even offered to update their Infopedia myself, just because I've gotten sick of the biweekly "update the infopedia!" threads and e-mailed appeals for more information.

*looks over at Totoro242*

I was wondering how long it'd take the Robotech apologists to get here and start picking nits in my post with all the speed and frenzy of an amphetamine-fueled chimpanzee... it took longer than I thought.

Edited April 5, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Gubaba]

For me, the hilarious part of this is that I am routinely pestered by the fans on Robotech.com to provide information and lineart for various unofficial attempts to provide a more comprehensive resource about Robotech's characters and mecha. In fact, not two days ago I was asked by one of the moderators to contribute information and art to what amounts to a Robotech imitation of Macross Chronicle.

Out of sheer bloody-minded frustration with their incessant whining, and since I don't think I could get away with that many murders, I've even offered to update their Infopedia myself, just because I've gotten sick of the biweekly "update the infopedia!" threads and e-mailed appeals for more information.

A Robotech Chronicle...? Where are they going to get the information?

(I have a sneaking suspicion they'll simply come here and plunder the Macross Chronicle Translation thread...makes me glad I've been too busy to work on Chronicle lately...)

[azrael]

A Robotech Chronicle...? Where are they going to get the information?

(I have a sneaking suspicion they'll simply come here and plunder the Macross Chronicle Translation thread...makes me glad I've been too busy to work on Chronicle lately...)

Yet another reason for us to go silent on translations. Make them spend money hiring their own translators.

[Gubaba]

Yet another reason for us to go silent on translations. Make them spend money hiring their own translators.

Does that mean we WON'T be seeing your translation of all the VF-1 pages anytime soon...?

[MEMO1DOMINION]

HI TO ALL AND SPECIAL HELLO TO THOSE THAT I KNOW.

A Robotech Chronicle...? Where are they going to get the information?

ACTUALLY, IT IS CALLED ROBOTECH CODICE

THE INFORMATION GATHERED WILL BE FROM ITS ORIGINAL SOURCE LIKE THAT OF THE ROBOTECH TV SERIES AS SEEN IN 1985.

FROM THERE ON GO TO THE BOOKS AND TO RPGS. EVEN FAN DEDICATED SOURCE PAGES. AND WILL STAY AS TRU AS WE CAN TO THE ROBOTECH STORY LINE. I KNOW THIS DEBATE IS ABOUT LICENSING AND SUCH AND I DO DREAD GETTING INTO SOMETHING THAT ALREADY HAS AN END FOR ME BUT FANS OF BOTH SIDES JUST LIEK TO GO AROUND AND AROUND THE SAME THING...

I ACTUALLY WITH OTHER FANS HOPE TO START OUR OWN SORCE BOOKS OF ALL ROBOTECH RELATED MATERIAL.

THIS IDEA GOES WAY BEFORE THE "MACROSS CHRONICLES" BUT I GUESS IT TAKES FAN DEDICATION TO THE SERIES TO MAKE THINGS HAPPEN. LIKE THE FANS OF THIS SITE THAT I KNOW AND SEEN WORK DEDICTATED TO THE MACROSS STORY LINE. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE THERE.

NOW, IF YOU FEEL I AM PESTERING YOU THEN IT WOULD BE NICE TO HAVE LET ME KNOWN FROM THE BEGGINING WHEN I FIRST STARTED POSTING ABOUT THIS IDEA, GETTING FAN REACTION, FAN INVOLMENT, AND ESPECIALLY BEFORE THIS THING GOES INTO PRINT.

WE ROBOTECH FANS DO WHAT MACROSS FANS DO AND I COULD SEE MANY GET THE IDEA HERE. AS WELL SOME PEOPLE DONT LIKE TO LOOK AT IT THAT WAY.

BUT IF I WANTED TO PUT A DAMPER ON THE THING I COULD JUST AS WELL CALLED IT ROBOTECH FRONTIER SOURCEBOOK

[Gubaba]

HI TO ALL AND SPECIAL HELLO TO THOSE THAT I KNOW.

ACTUALLY, IT IS CALLED ROBOTECH CODICE

THE INFORMATION GATHERED WILL BE FROM ITS ORIGINAL SOURCE LIKE THAT OF THE ROBOTECH TV SERIES AS SEEN IN 1985.

FROM THERE ON GO TO THE BOOKS AND TO RPGS. EVEN FAN DEDICATED SOURCE PAGES. AND WILL STAY AS TRU AS WE CAN TO THE ROBOTECH STORY LINE. I KNOW THIS DEBATE IS ABOUT LICENSING AND SUCH AND I DO DREAD GETTING INTO SOMETHING THAT ALREADY HAS AN END FOR ME BUT FANS OF BOTH SIDES JUST LIEK TO GO AROUND AND AROUND THE SAME THING...

I ACTUALLY WITH OTHER FANS HOPE TO START OUR OWN SORCE BOOKS OF ALL ROBOTECH RELATED MATERIAL.

THIS IDEA GOES WAY BEFORE THE "MACROSS CHRONICLES" BUT I GUESS IT TAKES FAN DEDICATION TO THE SERIES TO MAKE THINGS HAPPEN. LIKE THE FANS OF THIS SITE THAT I KNOW AND SEEN WORK DEDICTATED TO THE MACROSS STORY LINE. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE THERE.

NOW, IF YOU FEEL I AM PESTERING YOU THEN IT WOULD BE NICE TO HAVE LET ME KNOWN FROM THE BEGGINING WHEN I FIRST STARTED POSTING ABOUT THIS IDEA, GETTING FAN REACTION, FAN INVOLMENT, AND ESPECIALLY BEFORE THIS THING GOES INTO PRINT.

WE ROBOTECH FANS DO WHAT MACROSS FANS DO AND I COULD SEE MANY GET THE IDEA HERE. AS WELL SOME PEOPLE DONT LIKE TO LOOK AT IT THAT WAY.

BUT IF I WANTED TO PUT A DAMPER ON THE THING I COULD JUST AS WELL CALLED IT ROBOTECH FRONTIER SOURCEBOOK

I DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU MEAN BY THIS IDEA GOES WAY BEFORE MACROSS CHRONICLES AND WHAT IS THE ORIGINAL SOURCE OF ROBOTECH TV SERIES AS SEEN IN 1985.

ARE YOU JUST GOING TO PLUNDER MACROSS MATERIALS OR ARE YOU GOING TO DO SOMETHING NEW LIEK PALLADIUM DID I DON'T REALLY GET IT AND TYPING IN ALL CAPS WITH NO PUNCTUATION DOESN'T MAKE IT ANY EASIER TO UNDERSTAND.

In other words, if you're going to stay true to Robotech, does that mean staying away from Macross materials? Or does it mean just using the Macross stats and changing the names of everything?

I haven't done many translations from Chronicle related for the original Macross TV series, but if I did (and I probably will), I'd be rather annoyed if someone copied and pasted my translation, and just changed the names to Robotech names.

Is that's what's going to happen? Or are you going to copy stuff from the Macross Compendium? Neither of those options would be...um...well received, I think.

But if you're not going to get the info from Macross publications, where will you get it...?

[Einherjar]

Wow, didn't think someone would come and totally prove my point. Seriously though, is the infopedia, fanfiction, and Palladium Books not good enough for people or is this just to make Robotech more modernized and legitimate?

[Seto Kaiba]

(I have a sneaking suspicion they'll simply come here and plunder the Macross Chronicle Translation thread...makes me glad I've been too busy to work on Chronicle lately...)

I doubt they'll go that far, especially since most of what's in the translation thread has no bearing on Robotech at all.

In other words, if you're going to stay true to Robotech, does that mean staying away from Macross materials? Or does it mean just using the Macross stats and changing the names of everything?

Isn't that pretty much the definition of "a Robotech book"? A collection of Macross materials with the art traced and the names changed? I can't imagine they'd be able to glean much from Robotech Art 1-3, since all that amounts to is one big Carl Macek fan-wank.

There's no such thing as a Robotech source publication that doesn't pilfer from Macross. The Palladium RPG only made it to press in the first place by stealing copiously from the Japanese artbooks... Kevin Siembieda admitted as much in an interview on Space Station Liberty. Likewise, the URRG is based extensively on Macross source materials. As is the Infopedia. Many other Robotech fansites pilfer from Macross sources without rhyme or reason.

NOW, IF YOU FEEL I AM PESTERING YOU THEN IT WOULD BE NICE TO HAVE LET ME KNOWN FROM THE BEGGINING

Ah, you've misunderstood... You aren't one of the many, MANY people who's been pestering me for information for various Robotech-related fan projects. You posted a public request for information on two message boards, that's about as polite and unobtrusive a request as it's possible to make. It's the ones who frequently e-mail me (as often as once a week) appealing for information for whatever Robotech fanart/fanfic/fansite they're working on that really hack me off.

Edited April 5, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[EXO]

I'd say its a lot different. Macross Chronicles is a collection of creator documented information whereas none of the Robotech stuff will be straight from the creators because right from the time where Macek plucked and changd the stories, it forever cut ties with what the creator intended it to be. Aside from Macross II the original creators always had a hand in the mythology and design of what makes Macross. I as I said before, I enjoyed Robotech when it originaly aired because what we were seeing on screen was still the work of the artist that drew my attention. Just like it was enjoyable to look at the first Robotech Art book (but once I obtained the original Perfect Memory and Gold Book it really failed to compare.) But once you put the art and story to the hands of the fans, current HG personell included... it really does become more of just fanart and fanfic. Stuff that I just can't even begin to take seriously. Not because I don't think new people can take up the torch, I just don't think that the people that currently are taking up the torch can't even hold a candle. That goes not onlyh with the new animations, but with the toys and other merchandise they hawked over the years. Outsourcing worked for the current toy lincensees... maybe outsourcing to actual pros can fix the Robotech continuity... but since the source has never been totally solid and has already been further diluted by the current continuity, I dont think it can be brought to a sensible future.

[Gubaba]

I doubt they'll go that far, especially since most of what's in the translation thread has no bearing on Robotech at all.

True. I did the first Minmay page, and Sketchley did the Oberth Class Destroyer, but that's about it. One day soon, I'm going to finish the Macross Launch Ceremony page, which has some mecha-head info in it. Other than that, there's nothing yet, really.

Isn't that pretty much the definition of "a Robotech book"? A collection of Macross materials with the art traced and the names changed? I can't imagine they'd be able to glean much from Robotech Art 1-3, since all that amounts to is one big Carl Macek fan-wank.

There's no such thing as a Robotech source publication that doesn't pilfer from Macross. The Palladium RPG only made it to press in the first place by stealing copiously from the Japanese artbooks... Kevin Siembieda admitted as much in an interview on Space Station Liberty. Likewise, the URRG is based extensively on Macross source materials. As is the Infopedia. Many other Robotech fansites pilfer from Macross sources without rhyme or reason.

Again, true. And, as Azrael said, let 'em hire their own translators.

[MEMO1DOMINION]

Ah, you've misunderstood... You aren't one of the many, MANY people who's been pestering me for information for various Robotech-related fan projects. You posted a public request for information on two message boards, that's about as polite and unobtrusive a request as it's possible to make. It's the ones who frequently e-mail me (as often as once a week) appealing for information for whatever Robotech fanart/fanfic/fansite they're working on that really hack me off.

THEN I APOLOGIZE FOR THAT IS WHAT I UNDERSTOOD.

Isn't that pretty much the definition of "a Robotech book"? A collection of Macross materials

EVERYTHING PERTAIN TO ROBOTECH TV SERIES. WICH WILL INCLUDE LEGITAMENT LEGAL WORK DONE ON THEM. EXAMPLE LINE ART WOULD HAV ETO REFRENCE ORIGINAL CREATOR,, NOT JOE BLOW.

ROBOTECH IS MADE UP LEGAL SOURCES (WONT DEBATE THIS) THAT HAD TO DO WITH THE SERIES. INCLUDING SOUTHERN CROSS, NEW GEN, UNTOLD STORY, RT 3000, SENTINALS AND SC. FROM PRODUCTION AND LICENSES THEREAFTER.

I WONT COPY WORD BY WORD OF WHAT TEH DEFINITION AN DCHARACTERISTICS OF TEH FIRST MECHA I AM TRYING TO AQUIRE, VS-1D, FROM THE JAPANESE SOURCE. LIKE I SAID, THE LEGAL PART WILL BE SHADY TO SOME BUT WILL TRY TO DO ITS OWN SOURCE. NOT MUCH IS OUT THERE OR BEEN MADE BUT WILL TRY TO HAVE ROBOTECH WITH ITS OWN SOURCE.

AND WHY I DONT POST MUCH... TYPING IS BAD.

[Gubaba]

I WONT COPY WORD BY WORD OF WHAT TEH DEFINITION AN DCHARACTERISTICS OF TEH FIRST MECHA I AM TRYING TO AQUIRE, VS-1D, FROM THE JAPANESE SOURCE. LIKE I SAID, THE LEGAL PART WILL BE SHADY TO SOME BUT WILL TRY TO DO ITS OWN SOURCE. NOT MUCH IS OUT THERE OR BEEN MADE BUT WILL TRY TO HAVE ROBOTECH WITH ITS OWN SOURCE.

Only the first mecha...? What about the others?

AND WHY I DONT POST MUCH... TYPING IS BAD.

Taking off the Caps Lock would be a good start.

[MEMO1DOMINION]

Only the first mecha...? What about the others?

LITTLE ROBOTECH FANDOM POLITICS.

PLUS WE A SMALL TEAM. OTHER MECHA, CHARACTERS, TIMELINE, ETC, ETC WILL FOLLOW.

INCLUDING ITS OW PAGE. MACROSS FANS HAVE A LONG HISTORY OF DOING THINGS ON THEIR OWN, INCLUDING THIS NEW TRANSLATION (NOW I CAN ENJOY MACROSS BOOKS WITHOUT JUST GAWKING AT THE PICTURES) FOR THE MACROSS CHRONICLES.

BUT REALLY, THERE IS NO ROBOTECH SOURCE OF ITS OWN. AND LIKE EXO SAID WE ON A DIFFERENT STORY AS WELL. JUST THAT THIS WILL BE THE FIRST ATTEMPT AT ITS OWN ROBOTECH SOURCE COLLECTION.

[Gubaba]

LITTLE ROBOTECH FANDOM POLITICS.

PLUS WE A SMALL TEAM. OTHER MECHA, CHARACTERS, TIMELINE, ETC, ETC WILL FOLLOW.

INCLUDING ITS OW PAGE. MACROSS FANS HAVE A LONG HISTORY OF DOING THINGS ON THEIR OWN, INCLUDING THIS NEW TRANSLATION (NOW I CAN ENJOY MACROSS BOOKS WITHOUT JUST GAWKING AT THE PICTURES) FOR THE MACROSS CHRONICLES.

BUT REALLY, THERE IS NO ROBOTECH SOURCE OF ITS OWN. AND LIKE EXO SAID WE ON A DIFFERENT STORY AS WELL. JUST THAT THIS WILL BE THE FIRST ATTEMPT AT ITS OWN ROBOTECH SOURCE COLLECTION.

"Fandom Politics"...? I don't follow you.

And again, there are no detailed Robotech stats out there, in officially sanctioned materials, except the Palladium books, and a lot of that info is wrong.

So where will you get all of your material from?

[EXO]

You know I actually defended Tommy Yune's art, I think it was Maia, when it first came to light, but after seeing the rest of the designs for SC stuff come out, I concede to the people I argued against.