Robotech and HG license debates

[wrylac]

You misconstrue what I'm saying.

My point is that HG didn't ignore Macross because they didn't have any rights to it.

Sorry, I'm not trying to misconstrue, I don't really understand what it is you're trying to say, especially here.

That's because I'm long-winded. It takes me ten minutes to say "Yes."

He means you have to be really really drunk to understand that his entire post could have been replaced witha simple "Yes".

Then I need to be enlightened as to the question.

[VF-19]

I've been leafing through this thead and I've got several questions:

1) Why is it that Yamato can't release the VF-1s (and others) abroad, yet I've got 2 Yamato VF-1s (Max 1A, and a Super Hikaru 1J) sitting in my room? The 1J was purchased at a store in Canada, and the 1A was shipped from Japan to my house from HLJ?

2) I signed up on the Robotech MB (just to poke my nose in there and have some... FUN! ), and I mentioned Yamato, and the topic got deleted... Why? Is HG really paranoid that people will find out about the Superior (depends on the opinion) transformable fighters from Yamato?

3) How the heck is magazines like Toyfare is able to publish photos of "so called illegal" merchandise from Yamato (like the 1:48 1S)?

I'm so confused...

[Isamu Atreides 86]

its probably because someone's not minding the shop, or maybe, they just can't take time to worry about all the "little fish", such as anime import stores.

Edited September 11, 2003 by Isamu Atreides 86

[VF-19]

its probably because someone's not minding the shop, or maybe, they just can't take time to worry about all the "little fish", such as anime import stores.

Whatever the case, I'm happy with my Yamatos... I never liked the MPCs... Can't pin it down, but the Yamatos look more "right" and appealing to me.

[Pat Payne]

I've been leafing through this thead and I've got several questions:

1) Why is it that Yamato can't release the VF-1s (and others) abroad, yet I've got 2 Yamato VF-1s (Max 1A, and a Super Hikaru 1J) sitting in my room?  The 1J was purchased at a store in Canada, and the 1A was shipped from Japan to my house from HLJ?

2) I signed up on the Robotech MB (just to poke my nose in there and have some...  FUN! ), and I mentioned Yamato, and the topic got deleted...  Why?  Is HG really paranoid that people will find out about the Superior (depends on the opinion) transformable fighters from Yamato?

3) How the heck is magazines like Toyfare is able to publish photos of "so called illegal" merchandise from Yamato (like  the 1:48 1S)?

I'm so confused...

1) Because United States Law is funny that way. people can buy as many as they want from overseas, and then resell them, because then, it's their property, and HG can't really touch them, IIRC.

2. Yes. they are that paranoid. They released the MPC last year, and tried to do everything to make it the only game in town.

3) Because they are legitimate merchandise, as much as HG would like to deny it, and if they start strongarming Toyfare (which can be a large source of word of mouth) it'd be like biting the hand that could potentially feed it.

BTW: Wrylac, WDC, as interesting as the "what is the sound of one hand clapping" routine is, the mods are probably going to get annoyed pretty soon.

Edited September 11, 2003 by Pat Payne

[VF-19]

I've been leafing through this thead and I've got several questions:

1) Why is it that Yamato can't release the VF-1s (and others) abroad, yet I've got 2 Yamato VF-1s (Max 1A, and a Super Hikaru 1J) sitting in my room?  The 1J was purchased at a store in Canada, and the 1A was shipped from Japan to my house from HLJ?

2) I signed up on the Robotech MB (just to poke my nose in there and have some...  FUN! ), and I mentioned Yamato, and the topic got deleted...  Why?  Is HG really paranoid that people will find out about the Superior (depends on the opinion) transformable fighters from Yamato?

3) How the heck is magazines like Toyfare is able to publish photos of "so called illegal" merchandise from Yamato (like  the 1:48 1S)?

I'm so confused...

1) Because United States Law is funny that way. people can buy as many as they want from overseas, and then resell them, because then, it's their property, and HG can't really touch them, IIRC.

2. Yes. they are that paranoid. They released the MPC last year, and tried to do everything to make it the only game in town.

3) Because they are legitimate merchandise, as much as HG would like to deny it, and if they start strongarming Toyfare (which can be a large source of word of mouth) it'd be like biting the hand that could potentially feed it.

BTW: Wrylac, WDC, as interesting as the "what is the sound of one hand clapping" routine is, the mods are probably going to get annoyed pretty soon.

Regarding #2... I think it's because they've realized how much nicer the Yamatos look in comparison to the MPCs... Not to mention possibly cheaper (depends on where you live and if you got it on sale or not)...

[Pat Payne]

That may be part of it, but mostly, I'm pretty sure it's two things:

1) Monopoly power. If you're the only one selling an article, you can cvharge whatever proce you want, secure that enough people will buy to make it worthwile.

2) An almost Orwellian thought process that they use on the fans to try to convince them that they own the entire Macross property by putting anything that conflicts down the memory hole.

and a third:

3) It's a corporate site, and so putting up what amounts to free advertising for a rival in a message board would be like putting plugs for the next Star Wars movie in the upcoming season premier for "Enterprise."

[VF-19]

I tried to ask at the Admin forum concerning Yamato, and they've just deleted my thread again...

I'm tempted to just go over there and piss them off... I at least deserve an answer from them, not another deleted thread...

[Radd]

Allow me to offer a more objective view.

1) Why is it that Yamato can't release the VF-1s (and others) abroad, yet I've got 2 Yamato VF-1s (Max 1A, and a Super Hikaru 1J) sitting in my room? The 1J was purchased at a store in Canada, and the 1A was shipped from Japan to my house from HLJ?

At this point in time, Harmony Gold's claim that they own "all things Macross" is still keeping Big West from distributing any Macross merchandise or derivatives in the United States. Big West has proven their case in the Tokyo district courts, but has yet to openly challenge Harmony Gold outside of Japan.

This keeps Yamato from domestically distributing Macross merchandise outside of Japan, at domestic prices. The only way to buy Yamato's Valkyries is to purchase them through a comic/hobby store which imports them, or to import them via Hobby Link Japan, as it is not illegal to buy merchandise from other countries, and I believe even stores are allowed to do this in small quantities.

Still, you pay the Japanese price ($50 as opposed to about $80 for the 1/60 Focker Strike Valkyrie), plus shipping and handling onto that.

2) I signed up on the Robotech MB (just to poke my nose in there and have some... FUN! ), and I mentioned Yamato, and the topic got deleted... Why? Is HG really paranoid that people will find out about the Superior (depends on the opinion) transformable fighters from Yamato?

As it is their own website, it is Harmony Gold's right to decide how they run their forums. They choose to delete any threads related to Macross merchandise that competes with their own products. Not all companies do that, but there is no reason why they have to allow talk of another company's products.

I'm tempted to just go over there and piss them off... I at least deserve an answer from them, not another deleted thread...

I apologize, but I must disagree. Again, it is their own web forum and they have every right to run it as they see fit. Perhaps your questions do deserve an answer, but they are under no obligation to provide the answers.

3) How the heck is magazines like Toyfare is able to publish photos of "so called illegal" merchandise from Yamato (like the 1:48 1S)?

The Yamato toys are not 'illegal merchandise'. HG simply claims ownership of all merchandising rights to Macross and it's derivatives outside of Japan. Until that's challenged by Big West, no store or distributer can release Macross related merchandise without HG's approval. That does not mean they are illegal in Japan, and any publication is allowed to cover products available across the globe.

I hope this is informative to anyone with those same questions.

[the white drew carey]

Pat Payne- Nah. As long as Wrylac and I keep it civil and keep it here, we're allowed to sound like broken records as much as we want. Don't worry... one day I'll turn him over to the light side of the force!!!

[1st Border Red Devil]

I'm tempted to just go over there and piss them off

VF-19....just to back up what others have said....please do NOT do this. While I am not really a Macross fan (Im a Robotechie and a Southern Cross fanatic), I can guarantee you that it will cause a further slide in relations between MacrossWorld and Robotech.com. Not only that, your account will be banned at Robotech.com......and you will most likely not be allowed other places where the .Commers congregate on the web because you will have earned a reputation as an arsehole.

As others on this webpage can attest, this kind of stuff has happened before in the past with almost disastrous results. Not only does it eat up bandwith at BOTH sites (when one group 'retaliates' against the other) but it causes a great deal of hurt feelings. This is Shawn's website and Im not too certain that he would be keen to have to go through this crap again.

Im not trying to be harsh or to do the Mods job for them....Im just trying to save everyone some grief. Robotech fans and Macross fans can learn to get along.

[kensei]

I agree with the 1st Border Red Devil. I am a pure macross fan though...almost. While I do not quite like anything after the Macross Saga in Robotech, I must be thankful that HG gave me an English translation that is faithful enough for me to understand the basic story behind Macross. This was a while back in the early 90's when I was still a little kid that did not have internet at home so there was no way for me to even know that an original Macross even existed at the time. There are some people that still like Robotech and I respect them for that.

While I was also tempted to go and take the sh*t out of Robotech.com members this would not make me a likeable member of the internet community. This licensing outside Japan bullshit is a real pain in the ass because like most people I can see that yamato and macross products are obviously better than the mechandise HG and their ilk produce off their assembly lines.

Anyway my point is, this is a fight that we should take to HG, not their fans. Leave them out of it.

Edited September 11, 2003 by kensei

[VF-19]

I'm tempted to just go over there and piss them off

VF-19....just to back up what others have said....please do NOT do this. While I am not really a Macross fan (Im a Robotechie and a Southern Cross fanatic), I can guarantee you that it will cause a further slide in relations between MacrossWorld and Robotech.com. Not only that, your account will be banned at Robotech.com......and you will most likely not be allowed other places where the .Commers congregate on the web because you will have earned a reputation as an arsehole.

As others on this webpage can attest, this kind of stuff has happened before in the past with almost disastrous results. Not only does it eat up bandwith at BOTH sites (when one group 'retaliates' against the other) but it causes a great deal of hurt feelings. This is Shawn's website and Im not too certain that he would be keen to have to go through this crap again.

Im not trying to be harsh or to do the Mods job for them....Im just trying to save everyone some grief. Robotech fans and Macross fans can learn to get along.

Relax... I'm not actually going to go and do it. I'm not really the type who goes and makes a huge scene... Unless I feel as if I'm legitametly being ripped off by the company. Then I'll take it to the company. Not the fans.

[j_wong00]

I've been leafing through this thead and I've got several questions:

3) How the heck is magazines like Toyfare is able to publish photos of "so called illegal" merchandise from Yamato (like the 1:48 1S)?

I'm so confused...

Just add to point 3.

Toyfare reported on the 1/48 VF-1S under their occasional column of "Import Report".

Which is exactly what the Yamato 1/48 VF-1S is; an import toy.

Therefore, HG has no reason (or cause) to stop them. It's just an article about what's "cool" outside the boarders.

[Pat Payne]

I agree with the 1st Border Red Devil. I am a pure macross fan though...almost. While I do not quite like anything after the Macross Saga in Robotech, I must be thankful that HG gave me an English translation that is faithful enough for me to understand the basic story behind Macross. This was a while back in the early 90's when I was still a little kid that did not have internet at home so there was no way for me to even know that an original Macross even existed at the time. There are some people that still like Robotech and I respect them for that.

While I was also tempted to go and take the sh*t out of Robotech.com members this would not make me a likeable member of the internet community. This licensing outside Japan bullshit is a real pain in the ass because like most people I can see that yamato and macross products are obviously better than the mechandise HG and their ilk produce off their assembly lines.

Anyway my point is, this is a fight that we should take to HG, not their fans. Leave them out of it.

Even though everyone else has pretty much said what I'd liked to have said on this, they're right. DON'T. It's unfortunately HG's site and they can do whatever the hell they want. Going in there and starting trouble is just going to start another round of M.A.D. (Mutually Assured Destruction). They want to play the part of B.B's Minitrue, let them. 'Sides, I've seen the RT.com boards. Too many slack-jawed yokels there for my taste (especially in the Warzone -- there, you can almost HEAR the mullets... )

[VF-19]

Relax. I already said I wasn't going to go and cause mayhem on the boards over there...

But I do find it amusing that they consider the FAST packs to be an armour system... Personally I don't consider it to be armour. Especially not with all that fuel and exposives right underneath the outer shell...

[do not disturb]

HURIN IS A FAG!

Edited June 13, 2005 by haterist

[JB0]

the funny thing is, some of the mods come over here to post stuff but they act all "rent a cop" over there.

can you spell H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E!

To be fair, they have a JOB over there.

They essentially ARE rent-a-cops over there.

Honestly, just because someone's a moderator on a message board doesn't mean they don't disagree with some of the rules on that board.

[Roy Focker]

Guess I must be a Hypocrite too.

PS:

Cyc what's his name is a poster over here as well and hasn't done nothing here these forums to warrant such a complaint in public. I'm sure there's some offical way at Robotech.com for you to make a complaint about him over there. Until it is shown to me that his intentions are bad here a well we shouldn't be hearing any it.

PPS:

Don't we deleted or move things that aren't Macross related that appear in other forums? Robotech.com can run their forum however they wish no matter how bad or good they are.

[justvinnie]

I find it funny you can't talk about Macross toys on RT.com, but you can talk about any Macross series which in the end amounts to the same thing as talking about the toys since unless we are from Japan we have either import or illegally obtain a copy. In fact, if HG owns everything Macross, why the hell haven't they sued BW for creating derivatives of a show they own?

The only reason we can't talk about Macross toys is because it would hurt their profits due to the shitty mechandise their licensee produce. I wonder if they'll ban talk about any other Macross show than the original once they release their new show?

vinnie

[muswp1]

I wouldn't put it past them. I sense some of the people over there are a little insecure over some of their Robotech merchandise and really don't want any thing that would make te MPC VF-1 look worse than it already does.

[Lightning]

I find it funny you can't talk about Macross toys on RT.com, but you can talk about any Macross series which in the end amounts to the same thing as talking about the toys since unless we are from Japan we have either import or illegally obtain a copy. In fact, if HG owns everything Macross, why the hell haven't they sued BW for creating derivatives of a show they own?

vinnie

vinnie, please dont give HG any other ideas...

[Radd]

the funny thing is, some of the mods come over here to post stuff but they act all "rent a cop" over there.

can you spell H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E!

I seriously doubt this is the case, such an act would be incredibly childish and I can't believe that the moderators on the Robotech forums would stoop to such levels. Such a blatant show of immaturity and and insecurity would simply be inexcusable on the part of the moderators themselves. I doubt HG would even allow them too, as it would certainly send a very strong impression that they're not as secure in their rights as they're trying very hard to make everyone believe.

I can, on the other hand, believe that some of their regular members do just as I can, unfortunately, believe some of Macrossworld's own members do the same.

Guess I must be a Hypocrite too.

Roy! Tell me you just misunderstood what was posted! Don't tell me that you head over to the Robotech forums to cause trouble, then strictly enforce coporate policy over here!

Or maybe I misunderstood, but that's the impression I got from the post in question.

[VF-19]

Now here's something funny... One of the posters at Robotech.com honestly thought that it was a fan site...

I won't give his/her name because I don't think the person deserves any more embarresment...

Do I think HG is being very restrictive in it's liscence. Yes. But I understand that they are a company trying to sell their own products...

[wrylac]

I find it funny you can't talk about Macross toys on RT.com, but you can talk about any Macross series which in the end amounts to the same thing as talking about the toys since unless we are from Japan we have either import or illegally obtain a copy. In fact, if HG owns everything Macross, why the hell haven't they sued BW for creating derivatives of a show they own?

The only reason we can't talk about Macross toys is because it would hurt their profits due to the shitty mechandise their licensee produce. I wonder if they'll ban talk about any other Macross show than the original once they release their new show?

vinnie

Not going to happen, at least not according to the insight and conversations I've had with some over at HG. Really, the release of M7 Trash, should dispell any such thoughts.

[wrylac]

I wouldn't put it past them. I sense some of the people over there are a little insecure over some of their Robotech merchandise and really don't want any thing that would make te MPC VF-1 look worse than it already does.

HG has said many times that they'd be willing to work with Yamato and Bandai to bring their merchandise over. It's not about insecurity, it's about compensation.

[Pat Payne]

The point is, though, what "compensation" are they due for products based on DYRL and Mac 7 and Mac Plus? and how was it about compensation anyway when they claimed to own everything connected with Macross, even projects that Tatsunoko had no part in?

The original complaint that launched 300+ pages of yelling and backbiting still stands: what is in the memo that gives any credence to HG's claims of owning all Macross properties? Where is the contract that says that HG can claim rights to DYRL, Macross 2, Macross Plus, Macross 7, Macross Dynamite 7, and any other Macross production outside of Super Dimension Fortress Macross?

[Roy Focker]

Radd:

I was refering to going to others boards and not always posting under the same standards here. That doesn't mean causing trouble. I actually only posted once over there once but in other forums that I do post at I'm not acting as a Mod.

[VF-19]

Here's the thing. When Harmony Gold bought the rights to Macross (of the date I'm not sure), Macross' derivitives (Zero, Plus etc...) did not exist at the time. DYRL? may have existed if they've bought the rights after sometime in 1984, but that's about it.

Now if the contract specifically states that Harmony Gold automatically has the rights to the sequels/derivitives, then fine. Make the contract public and let us read it too, not just the judges.

Now if the contract doesn't state that Harmony Gold automatically gets the rights to the sequels/derivitives, then HG is out of luck.

Of course, the contract could also state that HG gets first dibs on the sequel.

Still... It makes me wonder about how Tokyopop got the liscence to publish Macross 7 Trash...

[wrylac]

The point is, though, what "compensation" are they due for products based on DYRL and Mac 7 and Mac Plus? and how was it about compensation anyway when they claimed to own everything connected with Macross, even projects that Tatsunoko had no part in?

The original complaint that launched 300+ pages of yelling and backbiting still stands: what is in the memo that gives any credence to HG's claims of owning all Macross properties? Where is the contract that says that HG can claim rights to DYRL, Macross 2, Macross Plus, Macross 7, Macross Dynamite 7, and any other Macross production outside of Super Dimension Fortress Macross?

Exactly, basing the discussion on the validity of HG's claims is what we should be doing not attacking the motives and integrity of HG employees.

[the white drew carey]

Here's the thing.  When Harmony Gold bought the rights to Macross (of the date I'm not sure), Macross' derivitives (Zero, Plus etc...) did not exist at the time.  DYRL? may have existed if they've bought the rights after sometime in 1984, but that's about it.

Now if the contract specifically states that Harmony Gold automatically has the rights to the sequels/derivitives, then fine.  Make the contract public and let us read it too, not just the judges.

Now if the contract doesn't state that Harmony Gold automatically gets the rights to the sequels/derivitives, then HG is out of luck.

Of course, the contract could also state that HG gets first dibs on the sequel.

Still...  It makes me wonder about how Tokyopop got the liscence to publish Macross 7 Trash...

A good point.

An interesting and extremely possible scenario is that the original contract between BigWest/Nue and Tatsunoko doesn't make any mention at all about future projects. That leaves a possible opening for one side to say, that the contract simply meant EVERYTHING Macross, whereas another interpretation could mean ONLY SDF: Macross, the TV Series.

This, and this alone, could be the basis for HG's claims.

But part of the problem is that HG has been unclear (either intentionally or unintentionally) regarding their claims and at other times have significantly altered what they claim their rights to be, occasionally from one convention to the next.

Another point (and I KNOW I've brought this up before ) is Tatsunoko's inability or unwillingness to call out BigWest for licensing out other Macross productions by themselves. If the original memorandum granted Tatsunoko the Macross rights outside of Japan, why haven't they said anything?

Some people say it's because HG owns Macross outside of Japan, and not Tatsunoko. But I think that's not true. In everything RT that I see it clearly says ©1985, 20xx Harmony Gold USA/Tatsunoko. That leads me to believe that Tatsunoko is in part ownership and HG didn't completely buy out the rights.

HG has said many times that they'd be willing to work with Yamato and Bandai to bring their merchandise over. It's not about insecurity, it's about compensation.

HG has said a lot of things and, sadly enough, they've been caught before. If not by outright lying, at least by bending the truth quite a bit (the infamous "No one was minding the store" excuse is a good one). Also, there really isn't any proof that HG actually has talked to Bandai or Yamato. IIRC, Graham asked the guys from Yamato once if this was true and they had no idea what he was talking about.

I could possibly think it was true of Bandai, but not very possible. I mean, until the chunky monkey re-issues, Bandai had only done certain VF's from Mac7. Why would HG want to bring those over when there's not a large market or a production to correlate with? And by the time the re-ishes were announced, the whole legal fiasco had begun and even if HG did talk to Bandai by then, I think Bandai would've said the same thing they've always said: "We're gonna wait until things clear up a bit."

My allergies are killing me right now.

edit:yeah, yeah, yeah... I spell bad. Agent One... strike me down!!!

Edited September 12, 2003 by the white drew carey

[wrylac]

An interesting and extremely possible scenario is that the original contract between BigWest/Nue and Tatsunoko doesn't make any mention at all about future projects. That leaves a possible opening for one side to say, that the contract simply meant EVERYTHING Macross, whereas another interpretation could mean ONLY SDF: Macross, the TV Series.

This, and this alone, could be the basis for HG's claims.

But part of the problem is that HG has been unclear (either intentionally or unintentionally) regarding their claims and at other times have significantly altered what they claim their rights to be, occasionally from one convention to the next.

Another point (and I KNOW I've brought this up before ) is Tatsunoko's inability or unwillingness to call out BigWest for licensing out other Macross productions by themselves. If the original memorandum granted Tatsunoko the Macross rights outside of Japan, why haven't they said anything?

Some people say it's because HG owns Macross outside of Japan, and not Tatsunoko. But I think that's not true. In everything RT that I see it clearly says ©1985, 20xx Harmony Gold USA/Tatsunoko. That leads me to believe that Tatsunoko is in part ownership and HG didn't completely buy out the rights.

HG has said many times that they'd be willing to work with Yamato and Bandai to bring their merchandise over. It's not about insecurity, it's about compensation.

HG has said a lot of things and, sadly enough, they've been caught before. If not by outright lying, at least by bending the truth quite a bit (the infamous "No one was minding the store" excuse is a good one). Also, there really isn't any proof that HG actually has talked to Bandai or Yamato. IIRC, Graham asked the guys from Yamato once if this was true and they had no idea what he was talking about.

I could possibly think it was true of Bandai, but not very possible. I mean, until the chunky monkey re-issues, Bandai had only done certain VF's from Mac7. Why would HG want to bring those over when there's not a large market or a production to correlate with? And by the time the re-ishes were announced, the whole legal fiasco had begun and even if HG did talk to Bandai by then, I think Bandai would've said the same thing they've always said: "We're gonna wait until things clear up a bit."

My allergies are killing me right now.

edit:yeah, yeah, yeah... I spell bad. Agent One... strike me down!!!

But, the contract does give TP copyright to SDF Macross. All the derivatives are based on SDF Macross, the line art itself (which BW owns the right to) does not inherently contain a story, just images. TP cannot make animation based on those images.

BW has been just as unwilling to divulge information. HG's stating its hold on Macross in various ways in no way means that those statements are contradictory.

HG doesn't outright own the rights that TP have.

TP's lax enforcement of their copyright could be explained by their cultural attitude/laws toward fair use.

Edited September 12, 2003 by wrylac

[the white drew carey]

But, the contract does give TP copyright to SDF Macross.  All the derivatives are based on SDF Macross, the line art itself (which BW owns the right to) does not inherently contain a story, just images.  TP cannot make animation based on those images.

I thought it had been determined that Tatsunoko only owns the animation. IIRC, Abombz! had located info stating that ownership of animation simply means ownership of animation, meaning the actual, physical animation. I may be mis-remembrin' this, though. I'll have to dig through the info I've got to see if this is correct.

BW has been just as unwilling to divulge information.  HG's stating its hold on Macross in various ways in no way means that those statements are contradictory.

But why should BigWest have to divulge information? They have history on their side. They've been actively producing, distrbuting and licensing Macross productions for the past 15 years with no involvement and nary a peep from Tatsunoko or (until 2000) HG, whom had suddenly decided, or realised, they own everything Macross only a couple of years ago.

So when the feces hit the fan, BigWest and Tatsunoko went to court to figure out the specifics. Meanwhile, HG made claims that, once challenged, they refused to back up with proof.

HG doesn't outright own the rights that TP have.

TP's lax enforcement of their copyright could be explained by their cultural attitude/laws toward fair use.

Although possible, I'd say it's highly improbable.

If the rights granted were to everything Maaaross, Tatsunoko could've been standing to make a LOT more money on their initial investment.

If what HG is saying is true, Tatsunoko, regardless of whether or not they were involved in subsequent Macross productions, would've had full jurisdiction over international licensing of said productions, including the profit to be made by granting those licenses.

I don't think cultural attitude would've had any bearing on a company neglecting what is the closest thing to a free-ride they can get. Besides some sort of involvement in DYRL, Tatsunoko, as a corporate entity, has not been involved in anything Macross-related since. Yet, for HG to own the rights to all Macross outside of Japan, Tatsunoko would have to hold those rights as well. Which means that DYRL, macII and Mac+ were all licensed without the consent of the very company which, supposedly retains those rights.

I strongly doubt Tatsunoko would let opportunities for profit such as that slip by.

edit- this time I left out whole sections of words!!!

Edited September 12, 2003 by the white drew carey

[Pat Payne]

But, the contract does give TP copyright to SDF Macross.  All the derivatives are based on SDF Macross, the line art itself (which BW owns the right to) does not inherently contain a story, just images.  TP cannot make animation based on those images.

Aren't you undercutting your own premise there? If "TP cannot make animation based on those images," then who can? BW would seem to be the logical answer, if they own the rights to the line art. And say what you will, DYRL and the other shows were original stories. Set in the same universe, yes, but original stories. Tat does have the rights to SDF Macross, that is pretty much granted. But still -- how far do those rights go? Raise your hands if you've seen this memo -- I sure haven't.

HG doesn't outright own the rights that TP have.

Same problem. There's a kind of logical inconsistency with what the tone of discussion has been ("HG owns Macross, get over it" is how I see your point of view [and I apologize if this is an unfair abstraction, Wrylac]) and this statement. They have said, and I have heard you and a few others reiterate exactly that HG outright owns the outside-of-the-Japanese-Archipelago rights to any anime property that has the Macross name on it.

TP's lax enforcement of their copyright could be explained by their cultural attitude/laws toward fair use.

Gaaaaaaaahhhhh-- WDC-- you said everything I was going to say on this topic, and said it better

Edited September 13, 2003 by Pat Payne

[wrylac]

But, the contract does give TP copyright to SDF Macross.  All the derivatives are based on SDF Macross, the line art itself (which BW owns the right to) does not inherently contain a story, just images.  TP cannot make animation based on those images.

Aren't you undercutting your own premise there? If "TP cannot make animation based on those images," then who can? BW would seem to be the logical answer, if they own the rights to the line art. And say what you will, DYRL and the other shows were original stories. Set in the same universe, yes, but original stories. Tat does have the rights to SDF Macross, that is pretty much granted. But still -- how far do those rights go? Raise your hands if you've seen this memo -- I sure haven't.

HG doesn't outright own the rights that TP have.

Same problem. There's a kind of logical inconsistency with what the tone of discussion has been ("HG owns Macross, get over it" is how I see your point of view [and I apologize if this is an unfair abstraction, Wrylac]) and this statement. They have said, and I have heard you and a few others reiterate exactly that HG outright owns the outside-of-the-Japanese-Archipelago rights to any anime property that has the Macross name on it.

TP's lax enforcement of their copyright could be explained by their cultural attitude/laws toward fair use.

Gaaaaaaaahhhhh-- WDC-- you said everything I was going to say on this topic, and said it better

Actually, the delineation is quite clear. This is why those that say this same argument has been going on for many years are wrong. The argument now is quite different. We never knew that the lineart and show were seperate entities until Feb 02. Here's the reasoning, BW owns these drawings, they want to make a cartoon from these drawings but can't afford to. Things happen, eventually BW grants TP the right to create the show SDF Macross based on thier drawings. TP makes the show we all know and love, and because they were the ones who paid for it all, they now own the show. BW still owns those drawings. When you read the Feb02 ruling ask yourself, what beyond the lineart does the court grant BW? The story? The character personalities?

Why did TP allow the creation of derivative works based on a show they owned? Maybe they thought there was no overseas market for it, as RT had pretty much taken over the animation, maybe they since BW really didn't push it too hard on the overseas market which was their territory. But, BW trying to release toys was like poking a stick at a bee hive. There's money in toys.

I doubt you can get very far, even on this board, claiming that the subsequent shows on Macross, aren't derivative of SDF Macross.

I think I've always made it clear that HG only has a hold on Macross because of their relationship with TP.

Edited September 13, 2003 by wrylac