Robotech and HG license debates

[TheLoneWolf]

I would like to know at wich point is the rights thing. What rights have HG cos the last thing I knew was that they just had the international rights of distribution of macorss, but not from it's derivates, designs, etc.

No one knows the exact details of the 1984 contract between Harmony Gold and Tatsunoko because this contract has not been made public. However, we can infer what the contract entails from Harmony Gold's actions and inactions

SDF Macross

On October 1st, 1982, Tatsunoko Productions acquired the worldwide (excluding Japan) film distribution and merchandising rights from Big West as compensation for their animation assistance with SDF Macross. On January 15th, 1984, Harmony Gold acquired these same film distribution and merchandising rights from Tatsunoko. However, the intellectual property rights for SDF Macross still resides with Big West. What that means is that Harmony Gold can legally distribute the SDF Macross footage outside of Japan (ie: the AnimEigo and ADV's Macross DVD's) and edit the footage at their discretion (ie: Robotech). However, they cannot create any new animation or movies using the SDF Macross characters and mecha because they do not have the intellectual property rights. Comic books and videogames are excluded as these fall under the category of merchandising rights.

Macross: Do You Remember Love

Harmony Gold also has the worldwide (excluding Japan) merchandising rights to Macross: Do You Remember Love. However, they do not have the film distribution rights nor the intellectual property rights to this movie. On a related note, in 1988, Celebrity's Just For Kids released DYRL (as 'Macross in Clash of the Bionoids') in the US under a license from Toho International Co. Ltd. In 1995, Best Film & Video Corp. released DYRL (as 'Superdimensional Fortress Macross') in the US under a license from Big West. At Anime Central 2001, Robert Woodhead (of AnimEigo) was asked about DYRL and he said that nobody knows who owns the overseas license anymore.

The rest of the series

As for the rest of the Macross series (ie: Frontier, 7, et al), Harmony Gold only has certain rights to these. In 1999 and 2002, Harmony Gold tradedmarked the name 'Macross' and the UN Spacy logo in the USA, Canada, Germany, and Great Britain; so any series and merchandising featuring these trademarks would have to go through Harmony Gold if they were to be released in those respective countries.*

This is just my understanding of the current legal situation. It may not be 100% accurate, so any corrections are welcome.

*Thanks to Bri for getting the list of countries.

Edited April 7, 2009 by TheLoneWolf

[Einherjar]

A question about the future: Can Robotech go on without Rick Hunter? Most of the Macross cast were killed off in Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles or prior to it. Would it be a huge shock after all these years if they decided to send him off in the Shadow Rising or other future entry?

[Dynaman]

A question about the future: Can Robotech go on without Rick Hunter? Most of the Macross cast were killed off in Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles or prior to it. Would it be a huge shock after all these years if they decided to send him off in the Shadow Rising or other future entry?

They don't need to go on without him or Lisa, the characters don't have the Macross names, and no longer look anything like the Macross characters (Rick isn't bad, Lisa looks like a bodybuilder, I still like it - at least from the Shadow Chronicles art, but would hate to see what the animation of her will look like considering what all the other female characters look like).

They certainly could go on without the character though, his character was nothing but window dressing the Shadow Chronicles. If anyone would watch is the question.

Edited March 11, 2009 by Dynaman

[Bri]

As for the rest of the Macross series (ie: Frontier, 7, et al), Harmony Gold only has certain rights to these. In 2002, Harmony Gold tradedmarked the UN Spacy logo and the name 'Macross' in the USA, so any series and merchandising featuring these would have to go through Harmony Gold if they were to be released over here. Though I'm not sure if Harmony Gold only filed their trademark in the USA, or if they filed it worldwide.

The trademark covers the US and Canada (can't find any info on Mexico but seems likely due to NAFTA). Harmony Gold renewed their Robotech trademark here in the Benelux (part of EU) in 2006. But Macross and UN Spacy are not copyrighted. I also checked the WIPO in Geneva: Macross is not a world wide trademark either. Seems HG is mostly interested in the North American market.

-edit- Seems HG bought the Macross trademark on a national basis in the UK and Germany in 1999 in Europe. Should run out in 2009 (TMs last 10 years) Some Japanese anime related firm has bought the U.N.Spacy rights EU-wide

Edited March 11, 2009 by Bri

[TheLoneWolf]

Bri, thanks for doing all that research! Interesting stuff.

[sharky]

There's a blurb about the Robotech movie among other things.

http://www.reelzchannel.com/trailer-clips/...-goes-hollywood

[Zinjo]

The trademark covers the US and Canada (can't find any info on Mexico but seems likely due to NAFTA). Harmony Gold renewed their Robotech trademark here in the Benelux (part of EU) in 2006. But Macross and UN Spacy are not copyrighted. I also checked the WIPO in Geneva: Macross is not a world wide trademark either. Seems HG is mostly interested in the North American market.

-edit- Seems HG bought the Macross trademark on a national basis in the UK and Germany in 1999 in Europe. Should run out in 2009 (TMs last 10 years) Some Japanese anime related firm has bought the U.N.Spacy rights EU-wide

Actually they secured the trademarks in both countries. A US trademark doesn't automatically include Canada, since there is a separate system in each country. In the US one has to go to court to challenge a trademark, whereas in Canada it is a Federal Tribunal that decides the ownership of a disputed trademark.

Edited March 19, 2009 by Zinjo

[Bri]

True, I worded it a bit ambigously. HG has been securing the Macross trade mark per nation, individually. They did it in both the US and Canda sperately, effectivly the trademarks cover most of North America. I'm sure they were pretty afraid for cross border imports from the North.

[taksraven]

There's a blurb about the Robotech movie among other things.

http://www.reelzchannel.com/trailer-clips/...-goes-hollywood

Christ, I am one minute into this story and already I feel like I have been transported back to the late 80's with everybody at pains to explain what manga and anime are.

Just finished watching the whole thing, not bad. Dennis Hopper has a fried brain. (Obvious statement, I know.)

Taksraven

[Einherjar]

True, I worded it a bit ambigously. HG has been securing the Macross trade mark per nation, individually. They did it in both the US and Canda sperately, effectivly the trademarks cover most of North America. I'm sure they were pretty afraid for cross border imports from the North.

You make it sound like HG's been panicking for years now.

[Bri]

I don't think they are panicking but I would call it a defensive strategy. HG protects the Robotech franchise with those trade marks and with good reason. These trademarks keep out any Macross sequals and merchandise, which are arguably superior to what HG and their partners release. Not to mention that all Robotech derivatives are dead in the water.

[TheLoneWolf]

I don't believe the trademarks are meant to "protect" Robotech from Macross sequels, rather they're used to ensure that Harmony Gold gets a cut of the profits from any future Macross sequels and merchandise officially released in the USA, Canada, et al. Harmony Gold isn't afraid of any of the Macross sequels per se, they just want a piece of the pie. Unfortunately, the end result is that no more Macross sequels will be officially in the USA, Canada, et al, because, among other things, no one wants to pay Harmony Gold for the use of their registered trademarks. It's all about making money.

Edited March 20, 2009 by TheLoneWolf

[Einherjar]

I'd like to see what kind of mecha they can come up with without help. They've shown they're somewhat terrible making new characters and storylines these days, so wowing people with cool looking mecha and explosions are all they have left. No wonder they're leaving the future up to Hollywood.

[taksraven]

How did M+ and MII get released in the US and Australia, did they slip through the HG net? (I know its probably been asked and answered before but I have better things to do than read through 1600+ posts.

Taksraven

[Bri]

I certainly agree it is al about money. I have heard the argument before ( think some interview with Tommy Yune?) that HG only wants a licensing fee from their Macross trademark as they helped make it popular in the West.

However, how realistic is that the Macross/UN spacy trademark will ever generate any cash for HG? Big West hasn't allowed any dealings with HG in 20 years, why expect that to change soon? HG still incurs a fixed cost of a few thousand dollars(excluding legal fees) every 10 years to retain that trade mark. If there isn't a second motive (like protecting their own franchise) then hanging on to the trademark sounds like a poor bussiness strategy to me.

[Bri]

@ taks

Afaik HG was in fanancial trouble at the time and didn't pay much attention to Macross related releases.

Note: Oddly only just noticed that Big West registered the US trade mark first. They were abandonned a few months later and then HG took them over. Always thought HG filed them first.

[Einherjar]

However, how realistic is that the Macross/UN spacy trademark will ever generate any cash for HG? Big West hasn't allowed any dealings with HG in 20 years, why expect that to change soon? HG still incurs a fixed cost of a few thousand dollars(excluding legal fees) every 10 years to retain that trade mark. If there isn't a second motive (like protecting their own franchise) then hanging on to the trademark sounds like a poor bussiness strategy to me.

People are still crazy about Robotech brand toys and RPG books, unless they're selling/doing anything else that's generating mad money for them at the moment. Still, you're right about their business strategy, unless they're serious about making Shadow Rising and the live movie it's wasteful spending.

[TheLoneWolf]

However, how realistic is that the Macross/UN spacy trademark will ever generate any cash for HG? Big West hasn't allowed any dealings with HG in 20 years, why expect that to change soon? HG still incurs a fixed cost of a few thousand dollars(excluding legal fees) every 10 years to retain that trade mark. If there isn't a second motive (like protecting their own franchise) then hanging on to the trademark sounds like a poor bussiness strategy to me.

When Macross II and Macross Plus were released in the USA in the early 1990's, Harmony Gold still had no problem selling Robotech tapes, CD's, laserdiscs, toys, comics, novels, and television syndications. At that time, the mediocrity of Macross II didn't reflect negatively on Robotech, nor did the success of Macross Plus reflect negatively on Robotech either. All the different frachises were able to co-exist in financial harmony.

Edited March 21, 2009 by TheLoneWolf

[Bri]

When Macross II and Macross Plus were released in the USA in the early 1990's, Harmony Gold still had no problem selling Robotech tapes, CD's, laserdiscs, toys, comics, novels, and television syndications. At that time, the mediocrity of Macross II didn't reflect negatively on Robotech, nor did the success of Macross Plus reflect negatively on Robotech either. All the different frachises were able to co-exist in financial harmony.

I'm not sure. HG was not very active in the early 90s due to some kind of problems. In 1999 HG seems alive again and started to agressively contact distributors of Macross related merchandise to stop imports. The whole Bigwest/Nue versus Tatsunoko court case is a result from that. In 2000 Big West tries to secure the Macross trademark. Big Wests attempts fails for whatever reason. HG reacts and secures the trademark shortly after Big Wests failure.

I would interpret the combination of banning imports and securing a trademark in this context more like HG trying to protect its market instead of trying to get in on the action of Macross products. Their focus until 2006 is mainly on trying to revitalize Robotech with the comics and shadow chronicles. HG sanctioned Macross merchandise is a pretty recent thing I think.

We will only know HGs true intentions in 2012 when the trademark runs out. If they don't renew it they were only in it for licensing money and underestimated the response of Big West/Nue, if they renew then its to stop Macross/Big West.

Edited March 21, 2009 by Bri

[Einherjar]

The first announcements for Macross Frontier and the Robotech live film came out near the same time in 2007. It may be a coincidence, but you think this was HG's attempt to stop Macross/Big West following Shadow Chronicles and Rising?

[Gubaba]

I'm not sure. HG was not very active in the early 90s due to some kind of problems. In 1999 HG seems alive again and started to agressively contact distributors of Macross related merchandise to stop imports. The whole Bigwest/Nue versus Tatsunoko court case is a result from that. In 2000 Big West tries to secure the Macross trademark. Big Wests attempts fails for whatever reason. HG reacts and secures the trademark shortly after Big Wests failure.

I would interpret the combination of banning imports and securing a trademark in this context more like HG trying to protect its market instead of trying to get in on the action of Macross products. Their focus until 2006 is mainly on trying to revitalize Robotech with the comics and shadow chronicles. HG sanctioned Macross merchandise is a pretty recent thing I think.

We will only know HGs true intentions in 2012 when the trademark runs out. If they don't renew it they were only in it for licensing money and underestimated the response of Big West/Nue, if they renew then its to stop Macross/Big West.

Does it expire in 2012? If so, that's the best news I've heard in quite a while.

My unstudied, ignorant opinion is that if the Robotech movie is still on-track in 2012, they'll renew the trademark. If the movie stalls out for some reason, and Shadow Rising is also nowhere to be seen, they MIGHT let it lapse.

[taksraven]

If the movie stalls out for some reason, and Shadow Rising is also nowhere to be seen, they MIGHT let it lapse.

Doubtful, I'm sure that they would scrape together all their coppers and small change, go into debt, whatever was needed to try to maintain that copyright AND control of Macross/Robotech or whatever the hell it is that they CLAIM that they own.

Their only other option would be for them to abandon RT (not likely) and just distribute Macross in the U.S. (If they legally could). I think that its a bunch of bloody minded bastards doing this, determined to get their own way.

Taksraven

[yellowlightman]

(I know its probably been asked and answered before but I have better things to do than read through 1600+ posts.

Better things to do... Like writing 1600+ superfluous posts yourself?

[Bri]

Does it expire in 2012? If so, that's the best news I've heard in quite a while.

My unstudied, ignorant opinion is that if the Robotech movie is still on-track in 2012, they'll renew the trademark. If the movie stalls out for some reason, and Shadow Rising is also nowhere to be seen, they MIGHT let it lapse.

Well, trademarks have to be renewed every 10 years by turning in a form and pay a fee of 100USD per registered class.

I know very little of the US legal system but it doesn't mean it's safe for any other party to start using the trademark straight after, there are bound to be some ways for anyone who forgot to re-register to reclaim it.

The UK trademark is due to expire end of July this year, will be interesting to see if it gets renewed.

[TheLoneWolf]

I'm not sure. HG was not very active in the early 90s due to some kind of problems.

What problems? Pull out any video or anime catalogue from the early to mid 90's and you'll see a slew of Robotech products ranging from videos to toys to t-shirts. And let's not forget the much hyped, but never released, Robotech game for the N64. Harmony Gold was definitely very active then.

I would interpret the combination of banning imports and securing a trademark in this context more like HG trying to protect its market instead of trying to get in on the action of Macross products.

Like I said before, history shows that there's absolutely no evidence to support that assetion. Macross II and Plus didn't eat away from Robotech's market in the early 1990's, so I can't think of any reason to assume that Zero and Frontier would detract from Robotech either. Harmony Gold registered their Macross trademark to make sure they get the chance to make money off of any official Macross releases in the USA et al, not to outright block them. Additionally, I believe jenius reported that in a recent anime convention, Harmony Gold publically stated that they would not block Frontier from being released in the USA. If that quote is accurate, then it proves that Harmony Gold just wants to be paid for the use of the Macross trademark.

[Gubaba]

What problems? Pull out any video or anime catalogue from the early to mid 90's and you'll see a slew of Robotech products ranging from videos to toys to t-shirts. And let's not forget the much hyped, but never released, Robotech game for the N64. Harmony Gold was definitely very active then.

Is it just me, or is anyone else getting frustrated trying to sort fact from fiction and speculation in this area? What you say seems quite correct, which flies in the face of what HG is saying happened ("No one was minding the store").

But I wonder...HG wasn't putting out the Robotech Perfect Collection; Streamline was. I wonder how much Robotech profit was going to HG, and how much was going to Streamline (and Macek)...I think that's a key question. I have no idea where to find the answer, however.

[taksraven]

Better things to do... Like writing 1600+ superfluous posts yourself?

C'mon, don't you have other people to victimise and abuse?

[Bri]

Yes, there is very little fact to base anything on. Pretty much all information is either from observations or from employee/anime con panel remarks etc. So there is always doubt. I try to be careful in distinguishing between fact and interpretation by using "I think, could have or assume".

The HG claim of no one minded the store does not neccesarily mean that they were financially unsound or in financial trouble. It's a private firm there could have been an internal conflict. Tommy Yune has stated that the current HG management is not the same as the one back then. (no idea how long "back then" is.) Also HG did not have the Macross trademark on animation products in the early 90s so I doubt they could have stopped Macross Plus and Macross II releases then even if they had wanted to.

Note that HG contacted those importers about Macross Plus and Macross II merchandise, not DVDs. The intellectual property of Macross by Big West/Nue is not in doubt.

Like I said before, history shows that there's absolutely no evidence to support that assetion. Macross II and Plus didn't eat away from Robotech's market in the early 1990's, so I can't think of any reason to assume that Zero and Frontier would detract from Robotech either. Harmony Gold registered their Macross trademark to make sure they get the chance to make money off of any official Macross releases in the USA et al, not to outright block them. Additionally, I believe jenius reported that in a recent anime convention, Harmony Gold publically stated that they would not block Frontier from being released in the USA. If that quote is accurate, then it proves that Harmony Gold just wants to be paid for the use of the Macross trademark.

A market is more then just the animation. HG blocked M+ and MII merchandise imports and asked importers to stop and hand over their products, that contradicts the statement that they want to make money of the license themselves. How much Macross merchandise have we seen from HG around 2000? I think there is a valid case for market protection, but feel free to disagree. Our opinions on why HG grabbed the trademark aren't as important as the fact that they did.

Would Frontier and Zero hurt Robotech as a franchise? Interesting question, I don't know. Current day anime fans are less tolerant of "westernised anime" then those in the nineties but Robotech has a more mainstream audience. Would be interesting to see how Robotech fans would react if Frontier was broadcasted on say "Cartoon network".

HGs statement of not blocking Frontier means very little if they expect Big West to pay HG license fees for their own product which I feel HG knows BW/Nue wont do. I would assume that if HG really wanted a deal they would hand over the trademark over to Big West in exchange for a licensing agreement from BW/Nue.

[Robelwell202]

As I am a relative newcomer to the thread, and this sita as a whole, I'm gonna ask a dumb question that has probably already been asked and answered, but humor me, ok?

Has there been any kind of petition effort on the part of MAcross fans (specifically in the us) to get HG to release the rights to Macross, so that we can get the stuff we want? Or, barring a relinquishment, an attempt to come to SOME sort of comprimise?

Here's a thought that keeps rattling around in my head... All the stuff that has come out since SDF-Macross, and Mac-DYRL, is stuff that HG can't really use. I mean, with "The Shadow Chronicles", they've completely abdicated any creative licence to use MAcross-related material in favor of using 'Mospaeda" mecha and characters. Sooo... it would seem logical that HG is only holding onto the monopoly of MAcross stuff as a power play. Now, I can understand Macek doing this, but maybe the new management could see it differently...

Now, I know this is just fanciful conjecture, but again, I ask, humor me.

Thanks.

[RedWolf]

As I am a relative newcomer to the thread, and this sita as a whole, I'm gonna ask a dumb question that has probably already been asked and answered, but humor me, ok?

Has there been any kind of petition effort on the part of MAcross fans (specifically in the us) to get HG to release the rights to Macross, so that we can get the stuff we want? Or, barring a relinquishment, an attempt to come to SOME sort of comprimise?

Here's a thought that keeps rattling around in my head... All the stuff that has come out since SDF-Macross, and Mac-DYRL, is stuff that HG can't really use. I mean, with "The Shadow Chronicles", they've completely abdicated any creative licence to use MAcross-related material in favor of using 'Mospaeda" mecha and characters. Sooo... it would seem logical that HG is only holding onto the monopoly of MAcross stuff as a power play. Now, I can understand Macek doing this, but maybe the new management could see it differently...

Now, I know this is just fanciful conjecture, but again, I ask, humor me.

Thanks.

Thing is HG's rights to Macross is leaky and won't hold up in court. Take for example the Ultraman series with Tsuburaya Productions vs Thai company Chaiyo Productions. Chaiyo was illegally profiting from Ultraman trying to claim the franchise and baring Tsuburaya from marketing Ultraman overseas.

What happened? Tsuburaya won the case. Chaiyo has to pay for all the crap they've done.

Now the same thing could happen to HG if Big West pushes for it in court. HG is trying to corner a market denying the real property owner its right.

That is why I don't believe that the Robotech movie would push through. Even if it has a big name star like Toby McGuire pushing for it. Already one those in pre-production jumped ship seeing it won't work.

HG is looking at lawasuit heaven eventually.

[Gubaba]

That is why I don't believe that the Robotech movie would push through. Even if it has a big name star like Toby McGuire pushing for it. Already one those in pre-production jumped ship seeing it won't work.

Do you KNOW that's why he left the production, or is that your interpretation?

HG is looking at lawasuit heaven eventually.

But HG isn't making the movie, Warner Bros. is.

Big West has Bandai behind them, so Big West > HG.

However, HG + WB > BW.

If there's a lawsuit, the advantage is with Warners.

[jenius]

Bandai isn't behind BW at the moment... Bandai wanted to release Macross goods in the US and BW appears to have shut them down. It's best to look at all the companies individually. I think it's safe to say BW>HG on their own regardless.

Thing is HG's rights to Macross is leaky and won't hold up in court.

HG's rights to Macross have been established and do hold up in court... because they've been through the court systems and that's how we got where we are. There are lots of things HG needs to avoid but the story of ROBOTECH is different enough. If the movie has a guy named Zor send a big spaceship to Earth using a super energy source and then some goons come to find that energy source there wouldn't be a problem as that's nothing like Macross. Everything beyond that HG needs to be really careful with. The aliens wouldn't be Zentraedi, etc.

[Gubaba]

Bandai isn't behind BW at the moment... Bandai wanted to release Macross goods in the US and BW appears to have shut them down. It's best to look at all the companies individually. I think it's safe to say BW>HG on their own regardless.

On their own, yes. But if Warners smells money in RT, they won't let it slip away from them. And Warners could crush everything except (possibly) another huge multinational conglomerate...which Big West isn't.

HG's rights to Macross have been established and do hold up in court... because they've been through the court systems and that's how we got where we are. There are lots of things HG needs to avoid but the story of ROBOTECH is different enough. If the movie has a guy named Zor send a big spaceship to Earth using a super energy source and then some goons come to find that energy source there wouldn't be a problem as that's nothing like Macross. Everything beyond that HG needs to be really careful with. The aliens wouldn't be Zentraedi, etc.

Everyone keeps saying this, but I have yet to see anyone cite a reference. HG continues to maintain they own everything and can do any story they want. Any evidence to the contrary has been circumstantial and incomplete (Rick Hunter looks different, they say "alien" instead of "Zentradi"...the list goes on, all with other possible explanations).

I want to believe it's true that HG can't touch the Macross section, but I've seen no proof. Merely a lot of people ACTING like it's true, and a bunch of other people acting like it isn't.

I'm sick of rumor, inference, interpretation, and gossip...someone please give me FACTS.

[jenius]

Everyone keeps saying this, but I have yet to see anyone cite a reference. HG continues to maintain they own everything and can do any story they want. Any evidence to the contrary has been circumstantial and incomplete (Rick Hunter looks different, they say "alien" instead of "Zentradi"...the list goes on, all with other possible explanations).

While "everyone" may keep saying that, it's nothing at all like what I've been saying. I thought we all understood, HG has no IP rights to Macross. There can be no doubt though that they own every right to Robotech. Therefore, the story of a guy named Zor, a spaceship with a matrix that makes energy, a group called "the Masters" sending their puppet army to retrieve said Matrix, would all easily be fair game. So the big plot points are all there to make a Macross-type story that's different enough, the real trick would come in the characters and terms used for the aliens. HG keeps claiming "We own EVERY right to Robotech" and of this there can be no doubt. It's where Robotech blurs with the originals that there is reason for speculation.

[Gubaba]

While "everyone" may keep saying that, it's nothing at all like what I've been saying. I thought we all understood, HG has no IP rights to Macross. There can be no doubt though that they own every right to Robotech. Therefore, the story of a guy named Zor, a spaceship with a matrix that makes energy, a group called "the Masters" sending their puppet army to retrieve said Matrix, would all easily be fair game. So the big plot points are all there to make a Macross-type story that's different enough, the real trick would come in the characters and terms used for the aliens. HG keeps claiming "We own EVERY right to Robotech" and of this there can be no doubt. It's where Robotech blurs with the originals that there is reason for speculation.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was singling you out. I wasn't.

And we know that Tatsunoko has no IP rights to Macross, and that if THEY never had the rights, they couldn't very well sell them to HG. But I think the real question isn't what rights HG has or doesn't have (which again, we can speculate about but never get confirmation on), it's how much HG thinks they can get away with. And with Warners adding their muscle to the table, HG could conceivably get away with quite a lot.