Robotech and HG license debates

[Gubaba]

Just out of interest. How many of us here would pay to go and see an RT movie in the cinema? (even if its just to mock it)

I would go.

Taksraven

There are so many genuinely GOOD movies that I want to see, but never get around to going to (usually because they're only playing in two theaters in the whole city, and both of them are half-an-hour away), that I really can't justify going to see a movie that I know will be bad.

[sharky]

Just out of interest. How many of us here would pay to go and see an RT movie in the cinema? (even if its just to mock it)

I would go.

Taksraven

I've paid to see movies that I was less interested in than this one. The fact that it is RT will get me in the door. I'm just hoping that the special effects will be good enough to hold my attention.

[VFTF1]

Just out of interest. How many of us here would pay to go and see an RT movie in the cinema? (even if its just to mock it)

I wouldn't. I'd rather pay to go to Japan to see a Macross movie in a cinema.

Pete (grouchy old RT hater)

[jenius]

Half the audience falls asleep at this point, of which one quarter start having flash back nightmares to Captain Power...

The other half of the audience that managed to stay awake begins to scratch its' head in confusion wondering what the hell is going on here...and what any of this has to do with that long and confusing pre-amble...

The entire audience cheers - at the credits - because it means this piece of crap movie is finally over and they can go home.

Pete

It's quite possible. Then again, Star Wars starts with a larger preamble than I would imagine and then throws the audience straight into a battle. It seemed to work really well for Lucas.

[VF5SS]

All they're going to do with this move is make Independence Day with robots. Welcome to earf.

[Einherjar]

Just out of interest. How many of us here would pay to go and see an RT movie in the cinema? (even if its just to mock it)

I would go.

Taksraven

With this economy, I need my $6-$10. Paying to watch it just for mocking would still help the crew make a profit little by little. It's like watching a bad movie, in the end you hated it but unless you demand your money back from the theater it counts as a sale. Enough random sales like that may turn up a sequel. I'd wait for the reviews first and let critics do all the work/suffering.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Einherjar

[Sdf Prime]

Just out of interest. How many of us here would pay to go and see an RT movie in the cinema? (even if its just to mock it)

I would go.

Taksraven

I might see it. If it is based on the Macross portion and if I think it looks good.

[JB0]

I have hope for the movie, Tobey Maguire is a fan of the series, coming off of the Spiderman success. I believe that HE - if no one else - wants to make a good adaption of the show. The last time something along this line happened a little film called "Forest Gump" was created. (Tom Hanks wanted to make the movie, and was given the go ahead simply because he was Tom Hanks - AKA Mr. Film Studio Paydirt).

Apollo 13 was the same way. Tom Hanks and Ron Howard are both big NASA fans, if I recall. Get them together, and who in Hollywood could possibly say no?

Even when they started filming in the Vomit Comet.

[VFTF1]

It's quite possible. Then again, Star Wars starts with a larger preamble than I would imagine and then throws the audience straight into a battle. It seemed to work really well for Lucas.

Yeah - but I think part of the reason that worked was because of the special effects that followed that pre-amble. Effects which, for that time, were mind-blowing. The Star Destroyer coming in after Lea's ship is a pretty straight forward scene from the point of view of 2009 - but in 1979 it was like OMFG!!!!!...

So really, a live action Macross movie would ONLY work if you put the primary spot light on the idea of SINGING defeating an enemy instead of fighting.

There are enough "aliens attack, we fight back and destroy" movies out there. Although - even War of the Worlds had song inadvertantly kill of the aliens...

But there has never been a serious "aliens come, fight, sexy babe sings, everyone gets along, aliens intergrate into society" flick...

But - in the end - I don't know if anybody remembers Graham writing it - but I do - Graham wrote that he prefers anime to live-action in terms of Macross.

And I have to agree. Not everything deserves to be put into "live action" because live action often doesn't measure up compared to anime.

It's like saying that instead of Michaelangelo's David, somebody should just put Hulk Hogan or Arnold on a pedestal and have them stand around naked all day.

Doesn't work.

Pete

[Totoro242]

I own and have watched all part of Megazone 23 a number of times, and actually would be really curious to see how the Macek take on it would have been in a... purer, let's say, form. It's especially interesting that they commissioned a new ending there, which had nothing to do with the original. I would love to see this re-released (though I have no delusions that it would happen), with the new ending, but removal of the Southern Cross footage. Like said before, it is rather jarring, with the movie quality frames vs. the tv episode frames.

Carl Macel's original vision was to also place it on Earth during the Macross Saga before the SDF-1 returns from Pluto. Would have fit there better considering the near future technological look (80's cars and motorcycles).

[RavenHawk]

Carl Macel's original vision was to also place it on Earth during the Macross Saga before the SDF-1 returns from Pluto. Would have fit there better considering the near future technological look (80's cars and motorcycles).

Really? I didn't know that. I thought it was supposed to be Rick's cousin, and it was supposed to take place between the Macross Saga and the Robotech Masters part.

[jenius]

So basically Pete, you're just saying "I don't care what anyone else says, anime shouldn't be made into live action." It's not something I'm sure I disagree with but you might want to work on being a bit more concise.

[Totoro242]

Really? I didn't know that. I thought it was supposed to be Rick's cousin, and it was supposed to take place between the Macross Saga and the Robotech Masters part.

Thats where it ended up, only so they could use SC footage in it and give it more action.

[RavenHawk]

Thats where it ended up, only so they could use SC footage in it and give it more action.

Gotcha. I get it now. Do you know if there's a synopsis out there or anything going over what he originally intended? I seem to remember so of this being covered in Robotech: Art 3, but I think it was mostly relating to what made the final cut of the movie.

[Totoro242]

Gotcha. I get it now. Do you know if there's a synopsis out there or anything going over what he originally intended? I seem to remember so of this being covered in Robotech: Art 3, but I think it was mostly relating to what made the final cut of the movie.

Not that I know of. It would be interesting to find out what else would have been different.

[RavenHawk]

Not that I know of. It would be interesting to find out what else would have been different.

I find it funny that so many people say such bad things about Macek, but a lot of the stuff that they complain about wasn't even done the way he wanted it done.

Then again, you have people complaining about the novels and how the original cartoon stuff is true to Robotech, because that's how Macek wanted it, without realizing that most of those changes were put in by the "McKinney" authors based on what Macek had originally wanted in Robotech, but the animation wouldn't allow for it.

[Jasonc]

I'm not sure I'd see it at the theater. There's quite a few things that work for us...1)The new trend is previews is to almost show every good scene of a movie, and give you the plot before the movie even is out. That may help determine if it's even worth it. 2)If you really don't like Robotech, and the direction it's taken, there are plenty of torrent sites, and other resources to get it without counting as a "sale" for a franchise you don't believe in.

For me, the franchise has just gone so far down the hill, that it no longer has any weight or interest. And despite how much they try to argue their point that Robotech is a growing franchise, the fact is, they can't even get many people to go to their gatherings anymore. People don't log onto their site as much, if at all.

I say that for this reason: I'm still questioning if the movie will even get done. Transformers had a much stronger fanbase, and was, for the most part, a household name back when. Robotech never really was, although I'm sure Kevin McKeever will try to argue that. I'm sure WB knows that to some extent, and may be a little skeptical about this project. As for taking what the RT staff at HG says, c'mon, they aren't going to tell what's really going on with the franchise. Everything is roses over there. Afterall, they are cutting their paycheck, so you can best bet anything that comes from McKeever is scripted and half truth.

[TheLoneWolf]

Gotcha. I get it now. Do you know if there's a synopsis out there or anything going over what he originally intended? I seem to remember so of this being covered in Robotech: Art 3, but I think it was mostly relating to what made the final cut of the movie.

Robotech Art 3 has a brief paragraph summarizing what the original plot was supposed to be about.

Macek's completed script for the original version of the movie was auctioned off at Robocon 10. That's probably the most detailed document out there. Unfortunately the winning bidder also had to sign a non-disclosure agreement, so we'll never get to read the script.

[RavenHawk]

Robotech Art 3 has a brief paragraph summarizing what the original plot was supposed to be about.

Macek's completed script for the original version of the movie was auctioned off at Robocon 10. That's probably the most detailed document out there. Unfortunately the winning bidder also had to sign a non-disclosure agreement, so we'll never get to read the script.

That's too bad. I wonder why that was the case? I can't imagine that there were too many company secrets in there, or anything that was likely to be reused by Harmony Gold at a later date. Well, maybe when the NDA expires, the owner will be nice enough to post it somewhere.

[Einherjar]

I find it funny that so many people say such bad things about Macek, but a lot of the stuff that they complain about wasn't even done the way he wanted it done.

Then again, you have people complaining about the novels and how the original cartoon stuff is true to Robotech, because that's how Macek wanted it, without realizing that most of those changes were put in by the "McKinney" authors based on what Macek had originally wanted in Robotech, but the animation wouldn't allow for it.

Macek can only do so much with other people's work. But when he's given more control on a project, like the Sentinels, Robotech 3000, and the novels, you start to realize where the talent has been all these years. He's probably a decent director, as Robotech proved to people, but when managing original animation/material to match the quality that's come before, or having more responsibilities with a project, not so much. Even if legal issues were cleared, it may not help much.

[RavenHawk]

Macek can only do so much with other people's work. But when he's given more control on a project, like the Sentinels, Robotech 3000, and the novels, you start to realize where the talent has been all these years. He's probably a decent director, as Robotech proved to people, but when managing original animation/material to match the quality that's come before, or having more responsibilities with a project, not so much. Even if legal issues were cleared, it may not help much.

I agree. Almost too bad that he's moved on from Harmony Gold.

[taksraven]

Unfortunately the winning bidder also had to sign a non-disclosure agreement, so we'll never get to read the script.

What a load of sh!t. "You get to buy this item but you never get to reveal to anybody else what is in it!". F@uk.

The trick would be to buy the item, say it was "stolen" or "lost", and then reveal the contents.

Taksraven

[VFTF1]

So basically Pete, you're just saying "I don't care what anyone else says, anime shouldn't be made into live action." It's not something I'm sure I disagree with but you might want to work on being a bit more concise.

Hm... ok - I'll give it a try; but it's not math so forgive me if my argument has many holes in it...

For me, personally, one thing that draws me to anime as a medium for story telling is the fact that animated forms allow for a greater range of interpreation in terms of how people, places and events LOOK and are seen than any other medium. Because everything is drawn, you then the anime artist (writer/director/people who draw/CG people etc etc) all basically get to create everything from scratch.

Now - naturally, this form does not always work for all stories, but I think it works exceptionally well for stories where you have things like giant robots, robots the size of entire galaxies, lots of cute girls, aliens bouncing around with panties...you get the idea...

Anyways - I think that by necessity, something that "live action movies" force onto a story, in terms of form, is excessive "realism" - to show that "oh look - this is how it would REALLY look like."

But, for me, persnally - as wierd as this might sound - the world can and does look like an anime if you look at it through "anime-goggles" - and I like for the world to look like this more than say, if it didn't.

So while I can be awe struck by "live action" renderings of lots of previously cartoon/anime films or comics or whatever, I'll still usually prefer the drawn to the "live action" version anyways.

This opinion isn't set in stone and doesn't really have much concrete evidence backing it - it's just how I feel - which is why I'm not going to argue the point too sternly - since it would be like arguing that my preference for...I dunno...Cheesbergers as opposed to Hamburgers has some deeper grounding than the simple fact that the Hamburgers don't taste as good because they are missing the cheese...?

Gosh - I don't think that was consise but I tried

Pete

[terry the lone wolf]

[Macek's completed script for the original version of the movie was auctioned off at Robocon 10. That's probably the most detailed document out there. Unfortunately the winning bidder also had to sign a non-disclosure agreement, so we'll never get to read the script.

Man, I don't understand HG at all; it's almost like they want the Cannon version to be the only legitimate version of RT the movie. It's been 20yrs and Cannon doesn't exist anymore so why not revisit the past and right some wrongs. I downloaded the Tom Bateman interview on Medmapguy's site and he was right. For Tommy Yune to announce that the product cycle of the Sentinels to be over made no sense. So much of Shadow Chronicles depends on the Sentinels and Robotech the Movie (Janice Em was really Eve of MZ23). Shadow Chronicles would've been a better movie if Sentinels was used as it's backstory than New Generation.

[taksraven]

[Macek's completed script for the original version of the movie was auctioned off at Robocon 10. That's probably the most detailed document out there. Unfortunately the winning bidder also had to sign a non-disclosure agreement, so we'll never get to read the script.

Man, I don't understand HG at all; it's almost like they want the Cannon version to be the only legitimate version of RT the movie. It's been 20yrs and Cannon doesn't exist anymore so why not revisit the past and right some wrongs. I downloaded the Tom Bateman interview on Medmapguy's site and he was right. For Tommy Yune to announce that the product cycle of the Sentinels to be over made no sense. So much of Shadow Chronicles depends on the Sentinels and Robotech the Movie (Janice Em was really Eve of MZ23). Shadow Chronicles would've been a better movie if Sentinels was used as it's backstory than New Generation.

I don't think that they could have done anything to make Shadow Chronicles a better movie. (ie, you can't polish a turd)

Taksraven

[Einherjar]

Here's a question for long time members/fans, is there a list of all the original concepts, characters, etc. the Harmony Gold staff created specifically for Robotech that wasn't derived from Macross, Southern Cross, Mospeada, and Megazone 23 material? Of course, character names count, just not the designs, but anything else from the comics and novels that were Robotech original, perhaps things that won't be affected from legal troubles regarding the series?

[sketchley]

Not that I know of, because anything new added to the series is "derived" from something.

However, the majority of the characters and about half of the mecha in the Sentinels are original. Some others (Hikaru/Rick, Misa/Lisa, Buriitai/Breetai) have been revisualized, as well.

Other than that, the best source for original designs are the comics. "Malcontent Uprising", "Invid War", and "Worlds Of Robotech"* are the ones that come to my mind at the moment.

*Not quite sure if that's the exact name. Too lazy to search for it right now...

[RavenHawk]

[Macek's completed script for the original version of the movie was auctioned off at Robocon 10. That's probably the most detailed document out there. Unfortunately the winning bidder also had to sign a non-disclosure agreement, so we'll never get to read the script.

Man, I don't understand HG at all; it's almost like they want the Cannon version to be the only legitimate version of RT the movie. It's been 20yrs and Cannon doesn't exist anymore so why not revisit the past and right some wrongs. I downloaded the Tom Bateman interview on Medmapguy's site and he was right. For Tommy Yune to announce that the product cycle of the Sentinels to be over made no sense. So much of Shadow Chronicles depends on the Sentinels and Robotech the Movie (Janice Em was really Eve of MZ23). Shadow Chronicles would've been a better movie if Sentinels was used as it's backstory than New Generation.

You know, I was originally under the impression that they were basing it on continuing New Gen too, and ignoring Sentinels. I had mixed feelings about this, since I LOVED New Gen, but have very warm memories of Sentinels as well, based on the novels.

On the other hand, I've been reading the Sentinels comics this week, and realize they have been taking ideas from it a lot more than they seem willing to admit.

Unfortunately, I think they also screwed up a lot of those ideas (like everything to do with the Haydonites).

[RavenHawk]

Not that I know of, because anything new added to the series is "derived" from something.

However, the majority of the characters and about half of the mecha in the Sentinels are original. Some others (Hikaru/Rick, Misa/Lisa, Buriitai/Breetai) have been revisualized, as well.

Other than that, the best source for original designs are the comics. "Malcontent Uprising", "Invid War", and "Worlds Of Robotech"* are the ones that come to my mind at the moment.

*Not quite sure if that's the exact name. Too lazy to search for it right now...

Very true, especially with the stuff from the comics.

Some of the new mecha (like the Praxiam horse) that were in Sentinels were, I THINK, actually unused Southern Cross designs.

[Einherjar]

The thinking cap could count as original, or at least their crazy explanation of how it works could. I also came across something called the VM-9 Silverback, a dune buggy veritech (seriously? ). Would it count as original?

[RavenHawk]

The thinking cap could count as original, or at least their crazy explanation of how it works could. I also came across something called the VM-9 Silverback, a dune buggy veritech (seriously? ). Would it count as original?

The thinking caps were original. Macek and the "McKinney" authors came up with the idea, since Macek hated the idea of simple hand controls being able to control a robot mecha, but the original animation which he used for Robotech didn't allow for a better explanation until the novels came along.

I saw the Silverback in Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles, and it's in the Shadown Chronicles RPG book. Kind of cool. I first thought maybe it was an unused design from MOSPEADA, but I think it must be original. It looks directly based on the MOSPEADAs/Cyclones, whereas most MOSPEADA mecha were more... original, I guess I would say.

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

I don't think that they could have done anything to make Shadow Chronicles a better movie. (ie, you can't polish a turd)

Taksraven

Yes you can! Mythbusters proved it!

But in the end, it's still a piece of crap, no matter how pretty it shines.

Edited February 5, 2009 by SkullLeaderVF-X

[taksraven]

The thinking cap could count as original, or at least their crazy explanation of how it works could. I also came across something called the VM-9 Silverback, a dune buggy veritech (seriously? ). Would it count as original?

The concept of a control device like a "thinking cap" wasn't a new idea to SF though was it, I can think of at least one film (Firefox) that used the concept. Just being a nerd in pointing that out.

Funnily enough of course, they used a similar device in Macross Plus as well, but we all know that.

Taksraven

[Einherjar]

The concept of a control device like a "thinking cap" wasn't a new idea to SF though was it, I can think of at least one film (Firefox) that used the concept. Just being a nerd in pointing that out.

Funnily enough of course, they used a similar device in Macross Plus as well, but we all know that.

Taksraven

The "thinking cap" probably stands out as a unique poor man's excuse regarding the concept, but very original. It's something only Macek magic can make possible even if your show blatantly contradicts it. You can control a mecha with only a helmet, unless you're Rick, Lisa, or anyone who flies well without one. They're just badass.

[sketchley]

The concept of a control device like a "thinking cap" wasn't a new idea to SF though was it, I can think of at least one film (Firefox) that used the concept. Just being a nerd in pointing that out.

Funnily enough of course, they used a similar device in Macross Plus as well, but we all know that.

Taksraven

Wasn't Firefox made after Robotech was released, thereby disqualifying it?

If one wants the ultimate "thinking cap", then "Neuromancer" (the book) is the way to go. Wait, didn't that book introduce the concept of cyberspace, the ultimate "thinking cap"?