Robotech and HG license debates

[AcroRay]

I think it would be a real riot if Big West exercised their licening rights and forbade anyone from selling certain Macross products outside of Japan - like Yamato's toys (which are, I believe, licensed only for sale within Japan). The products are produced under limited licenses which restrict their geographic sales. Rather like region restrictions for DVDs and electronic gaming media. So Big West would be well within their rights to do so. If we're playing the "who's legally allowed to do/should do what" game...

But this is all pretty nostalgic: all these fanjaculations of paranoia and bile about Harmony Gold and Toynami. It reminds me so much of when is was... oh... 16 years old, and I hated Harmony Gold sooooo much for what they did to those shows and how I could never ever have a decent, subbed or properly dubbed Macross, or toys that really said "Macross" on them, and why didn't Revell put the right names and colors on those models, blah blah blah.

Now I'm 20 or so years older, and there are actual US companies releasing real brand-name Macross & Mospeada stuff (not really into Southern Cross, so I don't care about that.). Never thought I'd see that - just like I never thought I'd walk into the same place I bought WARRIORS OF THE WIND at years ago and buy NAUSICAA. Works for me. And my kids. And my buddies at the studio.

"Toynazi"... heh. Can I coin "FaNazi", too? The SCA had "Authenticity Nazis" when I used to dabble in that. They were pretty similar, IIRC.

Edited December 17, 2008 by AcroRay

[JB0]

I think Macross Plus and 2 got released because HG was asleep at the wheel at the time. In Australia at least the popularity of anime has had its ups and downs and both these Macross titles came out at a time when there was a new 'boom' starting.

That's HG's official excuse, and it works for Macross Plus.

Macross 2(as well as Clash of the Bionoids) were released in Robotech's prime, though.

I'm fairly certain they originally understood that they didn't own Macross, and decided that much later.

[Vostok 7]

That settles it!

Where is Skullone? We need to bring him back! Release the Kraken!

Everyone's favorite HG hating polytheist. I wonder what he's up to these days.

Vostok 7

[Gubaba]

I think it would be a real riot if Big West exercised their licening rights and forbade anyone from selling certain Macross products outside of Japan - like Yamato's toys (which are, I believe, licensed only for sale within Japan). The products are produced under limited licenses which restrict their geographic sales. Rather like region restrictions for DVDs and electronic gaming media. So Big West would be well within their rights to do so. If we're playing the "who's legally allowed to do/should do what" game...

But this is all pretty nostalgic: all these fanjaculations of paranoia and bile about Harmony Gold and Toynami. It reminds me so much of when is was... oh... 16 years old, and I hated Harmony Gold sooooo much for what they did to those shows and how I could never ever have a decent, subbed or properly dubbed Macross, or toys that really said "Macross" on them, and why didn't Revell put the right names and colors on those models, blah blah blah.

Now I'm 20 or so years older, and there are actual US companies releasing real brand-name Macross & Mospeada stuff (not really into Southern Cross, so I don't care about that.). Never thought I'd see that - just like I never thought I'd walk into the same place I bought WARRIORS OF THE WIND at years ago and buy NAUSICAA. Works for me. And my kids. And my buddies at the studio.

"Toynazi"... heh. Can I coin "FaNazi", too? The SCA had "Authenticity Nazis" when I used to dabble in that. They were pretty similar, IIRC.

Yes, a lot of the anti-HG/Toynami brigade has been a little extreme here, but I think you're pushing it too far in the other direction. So you can buy Nausicaa. Great! Can you buy Macross Zero? And if not, why not?

[AcroRay]

Yes, a lot of the anti-HG/Toynami brigade has been a little extreme here, but I think you're pushing it too far in the other direction. So you can buy Nausicaa. Great! Can you buy Macross Zero? And if not, why not?

I think its just a matter of time - and a particularly difficult time right now at that. My personal speculation is that HG & Big West and Bandai will align their interests and we'll see more domestic releases of Macross media - driven in part by Frontier's success and the whole property's newly-proven value. If the players involved believe there's a significant amount of revenue to be made, they'll work out some way to come to an agreement. We'll see Bandai, I believe, proven to be the prime mover.

It may take a year or so for the players to work out their partnerships, and for the glut of the domestic anime media market to thin out a bit to the point where retailers will be willing again to carry decent quantities of quality programs instead of the thick chaffe that's clogged and suffocated the genre at the moment. That might seem like a significant negative for many of you guys who are used to the more instantaneous delivery of fannish gratification available with media and merchandising these days. (Not that there's anything really wrong with that situation!) But a couple of years to localize what should be an evergreen property isn't a problem for a company - or group of companies - which are strong and diversified enough that Macross isn't the only thing on their plates.

Personally, I think its a good sign that these companies are occasionally willing to butt heads over a point or two. I think those are ripples on the surface that show something significant is going on underneath it.

The stage is set, as it were. Zero, Plus - those were side-stories: little extraneous spin-offs that I think didn't look like the big cash cows the property needed. Frontier - however - has been HUGE in Japan and Asia. The aged, original Macross - and its Robotech iteration - have only recently been proven to be strong, viable properties in the English-speaking west once again. The key licensed product players in both markets have established a partnership and are asserting (or re-asserting, in Bandai's case) their positions. Regardless of what we might think of their particular values, their end goal is to make Macross a significant, current property and source of revenue. Only good things can come of that.

I think - and hope - we'll see things finally pull together to make Macross an active, upper-tier international property rather than the limited assortment of secondary market import items and legacy media releases it largely has been domestically for the last couple of decades.

Edited December 17, 2008 by AcroRay

[Skull1986]

Right...

We can only hope all the companies involved in the licensing mess can come to their senses and realize it's to their benefit to release MORE Macross material outside of Japan.

I would love to get my hands on legally authorized, English-subbed and dubbed versions of Macross: DYRL, Flashback 2012, Macross Zero, and probably Macross Frontier. The rest can stay in Japan!

It also goes without saying that I'd love to see a next-gen Macross game released on PS3 and XBox-360. Seeing how nice the last PS2 game was, it'd be great to see a repeat and build on that.

(Not gonna rebuy a PSP to enjoy Macross Ace Frontier... I got burned by that system good, and am only too glad I got rid of it when I did and replaced it with an iPod. I should have gotten a portable DVD player INSTEAD of the PSP!)

Most of the mess I place in the Japanese' lap. If only that memo to Tatsunoko Productions had been clearer about the length of time they (T.P.) were entitled to distribute Macross internationally!

Ah well, at least the rest of the world got the best Macross TV series!

[VFTF1]

Well, for the record, as one of the "extremists" - I agree with the people who voice the opinion that the best thing that could happen would be for all parties to come to an agreement that would allow this mess to be cleaned up and Macross to flourish in the USA.

That said - rather than argue over interpretation of the first Amendment with JBO, as interesting as that prospect is, I would perhaps try a different tact:

Given that Yamato make the finest Macross collectibles around, or at least many people believe so, and given that they DO have the legal license to do this in Japan, and given that this license comes from the SAME ENTITY which has given BANDAI its' Macross license (which Bandai is using in a partnership with Toynami) - and which Toynami is NOT CONTESTING but rather trying to work together with Bandai THEN:

Why can't part of this agreement iron out the issue of Yamato Macross figures in the USA?

Toynami is working with Bandai which got the license from the same people who gave Yamato the license in Japan.

Ipso facto - Toynami acknowledging Bandai's license pretty much acknowledge's that therefore Yamato's license is also legit since it comes from the same source.

Toynami COULD HAVE said to Bandai: "pee on you - we have exclusive international distribution rights" but instead they are working with Bandai - and good on Bandai for bringing about such a result.

But - can't therefore Yamato also be incorporated into the deal?

It's not an unfair request, nor is it an unfair question to ask: Why Can't Americans buy and sell Yamato Macross products?

It's not unfair or extremist to hope for/wish for/demand/want this kind of situation.

I don't want to get bogged down in petty arguments over legal mineuta - because that is beside the point (although, like I said, it's fascinating and beneficial insofar as one always learns from such arguments).

So - in a nutshell - is the above position extremist? I don't think so.

Pete

[edwin3060]

Well, for the record, as one of the "extremists" - I agree with the people who voice the opinion that the best thing that could happen would be for all parties to come to an agreement that would allow this mess to be cleaned up and Macross to flourish in the USA.

That said - rather than argue over interpretation of the first Amendment with JBO, as interesting as that prospect is, I would perhaps try a different tact:

Given that Yamato make the finest Macross collectibles around, or at least many people believe so, and given that they DO have the legal license to do this in Japan, and given that this license comes from the SAME ENTITY which has given BANDAI its' Macross license (which Bandai is using in a partnership with Toynami) - and which Toynami is NOT CONTESTING but rather trying to work together with Bandai THEN:

Why can't part of this agreement iron out the issue of Yamato Macross figures in the USA?

Toynami is working with Bandai which got the license from the same people who gave Yamato the license in Japan.

Ipso facto - Toynami acknowledging Bandai's license pretty much acknowledge's that therefore Yamato's license is also legit since it comes from the same source.

Toynami COULD HAVE said to Bandai: "pee on you - we have exclusive international distribution rights" but instead they are working with Bandai - and good on Bandai for bringing about such a result.

But - can't therefore Yamato also be incorporated into the deal?

It's not an unfair request, nor is it an unfair question to ask: Why Can't Americans buy and sell Yamato Macross products?

It's not unfair or extremist to hope for/wish for/demand/want this kind of situation.

I don't want to get bogged down in petty arguments over legal mineuta - because that is beside the point (although, like I said, it's fascinating and beneficial insofar as one always learns from such arguments).

So - in a nutshell - is the above position extremist? I don't think so.

Pete

Maybe because it is to Bandai's advantage if Yamato stays out of the US Macross market? To a certain extent, that is. Otoh, Bandai and Yamato are really going for different segments of the market-- Bandai has a more mass-market appeal, while Yamato caters more to the collectors but there are still overlaps in some segments where there is a zero sum game going. You have to admit, Bandai and Toynami partnering increases the chance of there being a Macross Frontier dub in the works.

[AcroRay]

Ipso facto - Toynami acknowledging Bandai's license pretty much acknowledge's that therefore Yamato's license is also legit since it comes from the same source.

The legal minutia as you call it is quite the point here, I think.

I don't think anyone is questioning the legitimacy of Yamato's license. The question would be whether the scope of Yamato's license permits the sale of their products outside of a certain geographic region, and whether the sale of those products outside of that region conflicts with the entitlements of license holders outside that region. If Yamato's license permits only sales and distribution of their product within the national borders of Japan, for example, then the sales of those products elsewhere would conflict with the rights and entitlements of the license holder(s) outside of that region, which in this instance would presumably be Toynami if they were given that license by Harmony Gold, who is the international license holder for SDF Macross. If that is the case, then BBTS is selling Macross product which is unauthorized within the US, and it isn't unreasonable for Toynami to be upset that one of their customers is selling unauthorized product alongside their fully-authorized product, and to require BBTS to stop doing so if they want to do business with Toynami in the future. SDF Macross is Harmony Gold's and Toynami's game here in the states, legally. They can pick and choose who they play it with. The owners and license holders of any property share the same legal rights.

The same thing occurs in the music, film and gaming industries, and is enforced in part by region coding and import bans. And people similarly lament that they can't get such-and-such film or edit or track because of it. But the fact of the matter is that the particular creating artist or their company owns the work, and they are well within their rights to say who may and who may not distribute it or express it, and how. The particular expression of the work in question here are Macross toy products. As I understand it, Toynami has the sole right to produce and distribute SDF Macross toys in the US - a right which was given to them by Harmony Gold, who obtained it from Tatsunoko, which a Japanese court asserted had legally obtained that right.

Anyhow, I doubt anything other than the test of time and the future development of the property and its merchandising in North America will really change your opinion about the situation, VFTF1. And neither of our opinions will likely have an appreciable effect on it, no matter how 'riled-up any one of us would choose to get about it.

Edited December 17, 2008 by AcroRay

[AcroRay]

I'll also add...

Live (Current) Trademark:

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc...tate=3pi0rp.2.2

Dead (Abandonded) Trademark:

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc...ate=3pi0rp.2.12

[jenius]

HG reportedly tried to get Yamato selling their products in the US and Big West objected. If this thing with Bandai ever gets rolling it will be because Bandai has the clout to tell BW what to do. It's also possible, as AcroRay said, BW's license with Yamato had a provision about only selling the product in Japan so when Yamato tried to deal with HG BW countered that it would invalidate the Japanese rights.

[edwin3060]

The legal minutia as you call it is quite the point here, I think.

I don't think anyone is questioning the legitimacy of Yamato's license. The question would be whether the scope of Yamato's license permits the sale of their products outside of a certain geographic region, and whether the sale of those products outside of that region conflicts with the entitlements of license holders outside that region. If Yamato's license permits only sales and distribution of their product within the national borders of Japan, for example, then the sales of those products elsewhere would conflict with the rights and entitlements of the license holder(s) outside of that region, which in this instance would presumably be Toynami if they were given that license by Harmony Gold, who is the international license holder for SDF Macross. If that is the case, then BBTS is selling Macross product which is unauthorized within the US, and it isn't unreasonable for Toynami to be upset that one of their customers is selling unauthorized product alongside their fully-authorized product, and to require BBTS to stop doing so if they want to do business with Toynami in the future. SDF Macross is Harmony Gold's and Toynami's game here in the states, legally. They can pick and choose who they play it with. The owners and license holders of any property share the same legal rights.

The same thing occurs in the music, film and gaming industries, and is enforced in part by region coding and import bans. And people similarly lament that they can't get such-and-such film or edit or track because of it. But the fact of the matter is that the particular creating artist or their company owns the work, and they are well within their rights to say who may and who may not distribute it or express it, and how. The particular expression of the work in question here are Macross toy products. As I understand it, Toynami has the sole right to produce and distribute SDF Macross toys in the US - a right which was given to them by Harmony Gold, who obtained it from Tatsunoko, which a Japanese court asserted had legally obtained that right.

Anyhow, I doubt anything other than the test of time and the future development of the property and its merchandising in North America will really change your opinion about the situation, VFTF1. And neither of our opinions will likely have an appreciable effect on it, no matter how 'riled-up any one of us would choose to get about it.

That all sounds logical, but isn't Toynami demanding that BBTS not sell Yamato Macross toys that are not from SDFM as well? In that case, by your argument Toynami has overstepped the bounds of its legal rights, which I think is the point VFTF1 is trying to make.

Either way, what's done is done, and hopefully the Bandai-Toynami tie up means that Macross F will be legally brought into the US. There is a silver lining to every cloud, afterall.

Edit: Jenius: Really? That would seem pretty dumb on BW part, seeing as to how there doesn't seem to be many toy manufacturers clamouring for manufacturing/distribution rights (SDFM/DYRL aside) outside of Japan, and since BW takes a cut out of every Yamato valkyrie sold, regardless of whether the sale is to a Japanese or an international customer.

Edited December 17, 2008 by edwin3060

[ntsan]

Tatsunoko is very much on HG's side, as they're the ones benefiting financially(and as I understand it, Big West is a major shareholder in Tatsunoko nowadays anyway).

Bandai has better things to do than fight Big West's legal battles for them.

Actually Tatsunoko is bought by Takara and now a complete subsidiary of Takara-Tomy, which is the prime rival to Bandai.

Which means Takara could incorporate Macross stuff to Transformers franchise if they want lol (ala Jetfire?!)

Edited December 17, 2008 by ntsan

[jenius]

Edit: Jenius: Really? That would seem pretty dumb on BW part, seeing as to how there doesn't seem to be many toy manufacturers clamouring for manufacturing/distribution rights (SDFM/DYRL aside) outside of Japan, and since BW takes a cut out of every Yamato valkyrie sold, regardless of whether the sale is to a Japanese or an international customer.

Not dumb at all on BW's part. BW ONLY makes a cut off of every Yamato valk sold in Japan. If Yamato were to establish a deal to sell the Valks outside of Japan they would not have to pay BW a penny for those valks, instead they'd have to pay HG. BW hates HG and BW only has control over the Japanese market so it'd actually be smart for them to word their licensing agreements in such a way that forbids companies from pursuing sales relationship beyond BW's scope. The only way that'd be a stupid move would be if Japanese companies were only willing to make the toys provided they could also sell them outside of Japan... but Yamato and Bandai (and others) have proven that there's a big enough market in Japan alone.

[Vostok 7]

You know, I noticed something odd on the Robotech page the other day. They're selling Yamato Garlands. So they already have an agreement with Yamato on some level (unless they are buying them from middle distributors and not YamatoUSA direct).

So if HG is capable of selling Yamato Valks under BW's nose, what's the hold up? Toynami? They're not stopping HG from selling MH Ride Armors when they are imminently releasing a much more expensive ride armor (which has already brought ire from the Robotech community). What's the point of stopping the sales of Yamato Valks in the US? HG should be riding the wave, not fighting against it. Especially over properties it has only tenuous control over like Mac+ and Mac0 and DYRL products.

That's why in the long run it seems HG is shooting itself in the foot and cutting off it's own nose to spite it's face.

Vostok 7

[azrael]

You know, I noticed something odd on the Robotech page the other day. They're selling Yamato Garlands. So they already have an agreement with Yamato on some level (unless they are buying them from middle distributors and not YamatoUSA direct).

...*snip*

Garlands are not Macross though. Different show, different license.

[Vostok 7]

Garlands are not Macross though. Different show, different license.

I understand, but if what Jenius was saying is correct that BW doesn't have control over Macross goods being sold out of Japan, what's stopping HG from just making an agreement with Yamato and finally allowing Yamato Macross products to be sold "legally" in the US?

If it's true what's being said about HG selling (or allowing the selling of) Bandai MacrossF (and 1/55) products, then it seems the only hold up is HG. Maybe they don't want to eat crow after fighting so hard against YamatoUSA and Sunwards way back when.

Vostok 7

Edited December 17, 2008 by Vostok 7

[Roger]

I understand, but if what Jenius was saying is correct that BW doesn't have control over Macross goods being sold out of Japan, what's stopping HG from just making an agreement with Yamato and finally allowing Yamato Macross products to be sold "legally" in the US?

Who's to say that they're not doing that right now, and that this request from Toynami to BBTS isn't part of the plan?

[Radd]

Remember, HG/Tatsunoko only have the merchandising rights to SDF:M, and for a very long time now HG has done everything in their power to stop any and all Macross releases and merchandise from having a domestic American release. This has put them at odds with the company that has the merchandising/distribution rights for every other Macross, namely Big West. This is why Big West does not want to play ball with HG, in their eyes HG's tactics have amounted to underhanded abuse of the legal system. Any company, such as Yamato, who wants to continue dealing with Big West has to balance that against any possible deal with HG. Yamato deals with HG, and they could find their deal with Big West to make Macross products for Japan, and their deal to make Macross products outside of the original TV series, to be in jeopardy.

I imagine the American market for SDF:M toys may be a bit smaller than the overall SDF:M/Plus/Zero/VF-X market.

However, as someone suggested, it's entirely possible that Bandai has the clout to toss around to make an international market happen. Still, it seems so far that the Macross deal being done seems limited to Bandai's reissues/repaints of the old Takatoku toys, doesn't it? We'll have to see where this goes.

[Vostok 7]

Remember, HG/Tatsunoko only have the merchandising rights to SDF:M, and for a very long time now HG has done everything in their power to stop any and all Macross releases and merchandise from having a domestic American release. This has put them at odds with the company that has the merchandising/distribution rights for every other Macross, namely Big West. This is why Big West does not want to play ball with HG, in their eyes HG's tactics have amounted to underhanded abuse of the legal system. Any company, such as Yamato, who wants to continue dealing with Big West has to balance that against any possible deal with HG. Yamato deals with HG, and they could find their deal with Big West to make Macross products for Japan, and their deal to make Macross products outside of the original TV series, to be in jeopardy.

I imagine the American market for SDF:M toys may be a bit smaller than the overall SDF:M/Plus/Zero/VF-X market.

However, as someone suggested, it's entirely possible that Bandai has the clout to toss around to make an international market happen. Still, it seems so far that the Macross deal being done seems limited to Bandai's reissues/repaints of the old Takatoku toys, doesn't it? We'll have to see where this goes.

Which brings me to another point. If they only own the rights to SDF:M, where do they get off stopping the sale and importation of goods from properties they don't have any right to? Is it only because of the "Macross" name? I don't remember enough from when they stopped the importation of the first Mac+ series from Yamato about how that worked. Along with that, how did they have the rights to make all those DYRL-based toys?

I'm guessing there's a huge can of worms there that no one really wants to touch, but honestly every bit of evidence we've heard stacks against HG pretty heavily.

Vostok 7

[DarkHawk]

Is this going to effect places like HLJ? Based on everything that I have read here, it sounds as if the only way that yamato macross items can be purchased would be if the purchaser lived in Japan and Asia. It also appears that it is also going to become more difficult to have any macross items even sent to the US.

[Radd]

It's not so complicated. Harmony Gold, beginning shortly before the planned US release of the Macross Plus toys (or maybe it was the first VF-X? I forget which came first) suddenly started claiming they had the rights to "all things Macross". They claimed they owned not only merchandising and distribution rights, but even went so far as to claim that they owned the designs. They extended this to every single Macross production that existed, and began throwing threat of litigation at any attempt to bring anything Macross to the States without giving them a cut of the pie.

Sometime after the Tatsunoko v. Big West case settled the matter of who had what rights, HG managed to get a trademark on the name "Macross", and seems to be basically doing the same thing, but now under their ownership of the trademark. Big West must have seriously dropped the ball, as I understand it they had been blocking HG's attempts to trademark the name, and were attempting to get their own trademark.

[jenius]

I see Radd has already answered why Yamato doesn't have a deal with HG. As to HG's stopping of the Mac+ valks years ago, that was sort of the pinnacle of HG's dickiness. HG was trying to assert rights it didn't have due to the ambiguity of the rights it purchased from Tatsunoko. Like I said, the contract HG has may literally be "You have all rights to Macross" written on the back of a cocktail napkin circa 1983 (or whenever it was). HG initially seemed to understand that they really should only have the rights to the original show, and merchandise for it, and that's likely why MacII and Mac+ (the animes) were brought to the US without HG involvement. Then it seems like HG hired new legal staff when they were trying to resurrect their brand and that legal staff said "Wait a minute, this contract is vague enough for you to claim rights to EVERYTHING Macross related!" That's when the poop hit the fan. They railroaded Toycom who was planning on releasing what later became Yamato's 1/72 series, helped start Toynami, and fought a legal battle with BW over their more and more bold assertions. The Japanese court put them in their place limiting their rights to just the original film and its merchandising rights but the damage was done and BW was bound to hate them forever.

Edit - Just FYI - I was writing when Radd wrote his response so pardon the redundancy.

Will this affect HLJ?

In all likelihood no. People actually exporting stuff from the orient are probably well out of HG's reach.

Edited December 18, 2008 by jenius

[Radd]

DarkHawk, the short answer? Not likely. Individuals are allowed to import items such as, say, Macross toys, despite all this. It's not against the law. Also, HLJ is based in Japan as I understand it. It's something of a grey area, but HG has been doing this for years. This most recent noise is most likely related to their deal with Bandai, and Toynami's clout with domestic sales.

[Radd]

This is sad. We should get together, maybe hire a lawyer, and write a book about the whole ordeal.

[Gubaba]

I think its just a matter of time - and a particularly difficult time right now at that. My personal speculation is that HG & Big West and Bandai will align their interests and we'll see more domestic releases of Macross media - driven in part by Frontier's success and the whole property's newly-proven value. If the players involved believe there's a significant amount of revenue to be made, they'll work out some way to come to an agreement. We'll see Bandai, I believe, proven to be the prime mover.

It may take a year or so for the players to work out their partnerships, and for the glut of the domestic anime media market to thin out a bit to the point where retailers will be willing again to carry decent quantities of quality programs instead of the thick chaffe that's clogged and suffocated the genre at the moment. That might seem like a significant negative for many of you guys who are used to the more instantaneous delivery of fannish gratification available with media and merchandising these days. (Not that there's anything really wrong with that situation!) But a couple of years to localize what should be an evergreen property isn't a problem for a company - or group of companies - which are strong and diversified enough that Macross isn't the only thing on their plates.

Personally, I think its a good sign that these companies are occasionally willing to butt heads over a point or two. I think those are ripples on the surface that show something significant is going on underneath it.

The stage is set, as it were. Zero, Plus - those were side-stories: little extraneous spin-offs that I think didn't look like the big cash cows the property needed. Frontier - however - has been HUGE in Japan and Asia. The aged, original Macross - and its Robotech iteration - have only recently been proven to be strong, viable properties in the English-speaking west once again. The key licensed product players in both markets have established a partnership and are asserting (or re-asserting, in Bandai's case) their positions. Regardless of what we might think of their particular values, their end goal is to make Macross a significant, current property and source of revenue. Only good things can come of that.

I think - and hope - we'll see things finally pull together to make Macross an active, upper-tier international property rather than the limited assortment of secondary market import items and legacy media releases it largely has been domestically for the last couple of decades.

I hope you're right. I don't care how we get legal Macross, I don't even care if we help fatten up HG's coffers in doing so...I just want to see it all in the west, and done well.

Still, the picture you present is quite sensible and logical. As such, I doubt it's actually going to happen.

[taksraven]

It's not so complicated. Harmony Gold, beginning shortly before the planned US release of the Macross Plus toys (or maybe it was the first VF-X? I forget which came first) suddenly started claiming they had the rights to "all things Macross". They claimed they owned not only merchandising and distribution rights, but even went so far as to claim that they owned the designs. They extended this to every single Macross production that existed, and began throwing threat of litigation at any attempt to bring anything Macross to the States without giving them a cut of the pie.

If thats the case, i wonder why HG was so quick to have the Invid written out and a NEW enemy (ie, one created by and owned by HG entirely you can bet) was introduced. I think that their legal claim to Macross is probably more dubious than they maintain.

I guess if they ever lost Macross or Robotech they could fall back on their other classic productions with huge fanbases like Shaka Zulu to keep making money.

Taksraven

[Salamander]

Toynami? They're not stopping HG from selling MH Ride Armors when they are imminently releasing a much more expensive ride armor

Mega House = Bandai (subsidiary).

[jenius]

If thats the case, i wonder why HG was so quick to have the Invid written out and a NEW enemy (ie, one created by and owned by HG entirely you can bet) was introduced. I think that their legal claim to Macross is probably more dubious than they maintain.

I guess if they ever lost Macross or Robotech they could fall back on their other classic productions with huge fanbases like Shaka Zulu to keep making money.

Taksraven

It seems like your observation about the Invid fails to consider several points. First, the Invid are pretty prominently placed in the Shadow Chronicles. Second, every "generation" of Robotech has a new enemy. Third, the Haydonites were shaped up to be the next enemy way back in the Sentinels days. Fourth, it's wouldn't make sense for any Macross or Masters enemies to return as their chapters are pretty nicely concluded by the generations they appeared in. Fifth, the lack of reference to previous alien species is evidence of the very rulings referenced here, mainly that HG has no intellectual property rights and can thus NOT use anything from Macross in an HG original production.

Their legal claims are no longer dubious. Their legal claims WERE dubious when they claimed to have rights to EVERYTHING Macross related. Since then it has been established that they have the international rights to the original show and its merchandising rights and NOTHING beyond that.

Do I sound like a broken record yet?

EDIT - HG is NOT selling Mega House products. Toynami is selling Mega House products in the US by way of a license agreement with Harmony Gold. Of course, the Ride Armors have very little to do with this conversation since Big West has nothing to do with Mospeada. Tatsunoko handles Mospeada licenses in Japan and Tats has a long-standing and decent relationship with HG.

Edited December 18, 2008 by jenius

[JB0]

Fifth, the lack of reference to previous alien species is evidence of the very rulings referenced here, mainly that HG has no intellectual property rights and can thus NOT use anything from Macross in an HG original production.

This one's actually kind of interesting, because zentradi regulds appeared briefly in the small portion of Sentinels that was animated, DESPITE it being in an era when HG wasn't fighting tooth and nail over everything(Macross 2, DYRL).

I've always wondered what the heck happened there, especially when tehy went out of their way to redesign Britai/hit him with the ugly stick.

[VFTF1]

Well I still think HG has made a big poo poo situation and I like Yamato so there

(I think I'm goign to stop writing long winded treatises and just limit my line of argumentation to infantile outbursts)

Pete

[JB0]

Well I still think HG has made a big poo poo situation and I like Yamato so there

Hear, hear!

(I think I'm goign to stop writing long winded treatises and just limit my line of argumentation to infantile outbursts)

It's the way of the internet!

[sketchley]

It's the way of the internet!

If it's short and to the point it's:

a) more likely to be read

b) generally much more solid than a long-winded post citing unumerable references and cases.

[Apollo Leader]

This one's actually kind of interesting, because zentradi regulds appeared briefly in the small portion of Sentinels that was animated, DESPITE it being in an era when HG wasn't fighting tooth and nail over everything(Macross 2, DYRL).

I've always wondered what the heck happened there, especially when tehy went out of their way to redesign Britai/hit him with the ugly stick.

The Regults seen in the Sentinels look considerably different then the ones you see in Macross. They almost look like a new mecha.

[jenius]

I think intellectual property laws and their enforcement (in regard to such things as what HG was trying to do with the Sentinels) was still very murky waters at the time. HG seemed to sense there were potential legal issues so they were doing redesigns already in an effort to avoid any potential mess. After the advent of the Internet intellectual property laws have definitely become better understood/fleshed out and HG now seems to understand that they need to steer very clear of anything that was in the original works (barring some miraculous rights change brought on by WB or something).