Robotech and HG license debates

[Rabidweezil]

Don't ignore what I pointed out: you believe that people in America should be spending money on fighting a legal battle that doesn't mean jack in the grand scheme of things. Must be really easy to do when you're sitting in front of a computer in another country.

While I agree that spending money on a legal battle with HG over this issue would be an waste of money, I don't think it's fair to say that the issue isn't important.

Even thought to you, or me, or 99.99999% percent of people in the country believe the issue to be petty. That doesn't mean to someone it can't be important.

Let's say you are putting your energy into saving a pair of endangered owls that are living in a tree that's supposed to be cut down. To someone that's putting their energy into saving the rain forests -home to thousands of species that are endangered - a pair of owls are not important in "the grand scheme of things"

So if we are only supposed to take on fights that are important...who is to judge the level of importance? If you keep going up the ladder, the cause above all other causes would be saving the planet as a whole. Everything below that could be considered petty. Including the rain forest, or the owls.

I think whatever cause a person takes on should be left up to the individual. Whether it be challenging whaling boats or toy companies, it's their time, it's their energy. Who am I to tell them what needs to be done with their life.

[VFTF1]

5 points:

1) I agree with Radd - none of us have all the facts; we're just being armchair lawyers - but that's kind of the point of the thread.

2) I just don't understand why one American sitting in another country encouraging Americans back home to try to do something to resolve a situation is bad?

3) I am not encouraging people to sue HG. I am encouraging them to write their congressmen, start petition drives and try to organize as fans and look into the issue of copyright law and whether it is doing the job that it should. This whole mess is clearly a result of poor copyright laws and misunderstanding - the laws need to be clearer.

4) Yamato's Macross Valkyrie are all based off of DYRL. Therefore, even if HG has the rights to SDFM TV series - DYRL is a derivative - and HG doesn't have rights to derivatives, therefore they have no right to block the import of Macross goods from Japan

5) This is also an important issue for retailers. Retailers should be free to determine what they are going to sell in accordance with consumer demand - not in accordance with the arm twisting of one company via another.

-Pete,

Epically Failing since 3rd grade

[Roger]

I think whatever cause a person takes on should be left up to the individual. Whether it be challenging whaling boats or toy companies, it's their time, it's their energy. Who am I to tell them what needs to be done with their life.

Exactly. Who is VFTF1 that he should be telling us and the retailers we buy from what to do?

[Apollo Leader]

I was wondering why this thread was brought back to life.

I haven't had the chance to read every post, but some things that differ between now and 2000-2002 is that Toynami is the one exercising its rights (instead of Harmony Gold) though it appears they are directly approaching retailers/distributors like BBTS instead of sending out lawyers with cease-and-desist orders like Harmony Gold did to Kevin Lam (Valkyrie Exchange) and Spideyjerusalem back in the day.

Interesting blurb in the BBTS e-mail suggesting that Joel and company have quite a bit MORE business planned with Toynami; obviously it's an enough of a business arrangement that they are valuing it over Yamato Macross imports. If memory serves me correctly, wasn't it announced last spring or summer that the arrangement where Toynami will be releasing Bandai 1/55th's also includes a lot of other licenses including Gundam (MSIA's FIX Figurations, etc.)? I wouldn't be surprised if Macross merchandise beyond the TV series and DYRL (such as Macross Frontier) is part of this; heck there's been those of us here on Macross World speculating that for months now.

I know a lot of you are upset at this development and definitely worried and concerned about how this will effect your ability to collect these fine toys from this series that we love, but I would recommend not getting worked up in a tizzy over it. It's not worth being stressed out about a bunch of stupid pieces of plastic; if the economy continues to tank further, we will have much bigger things to worry about. For all the worrying and agonizing that we did over 6-8 years ago, pretty much all of our favorite Macross importers continued to sell Japanese Macross merchandice and we were able to experience what can truly be described as a golden age for Macross collectors.

And when it comes to all these companies and businesses (Big West, Harmony Gold, Toynami, Bandai, Yamato, etc.) and the rights/stakes that they have in these properties and licences, we got to think things through with the minds of level-headed adults and not as some over obsessed fanboys.

[Radd]

Not all of Yamato's VF-1 toys are DYRL based. They have sold a large number of toys from SDF:M. As I understand it, license agreements are supposed to cover scenarios like that, and one does not automatically get any rights not clearly defined in the agreement. Still, some of the DYRL designs are only somewhat, or not at all different, from their TV counterparts, such as the Destroids. I can certainly see where there may be some issues there.

I do agree that intellectual property laws are a mess. I also believe that's an important topic.

Now, regarding retailers, there are reasons why laws can dictate what they can and cannot sell. Sometimes I think the laws are flawed regarding this, but much of the time they're perfectly reasonable. Assuming HG has the rights they claim, they certainly don't want import shops subverting their domestic market.

[Vostok 7]

Oh great.. the wall of text, conspiracy theories and legal advise have begun..again..this thread had been quiet for too long All this latest news does is open up old wounds..

There are other ways of course to get Macross stuff. It just sucks that after all these years, the Macross franchise is still a farting mess. HG(the worst of the worst), Toynami, BW, Bandai, Yamato, Sunwards (lol if anyone remembers that) etc. have all had their part in this disaster. And in the end, the fans get screwed...again.

I just wonder why this latest bit of news. BBTS has been selling Yamato Macross toys since the first 1/72 YF-19..why now be "asked" to stop? The Toynami/Bandai deal?..if its still happening.

Ahhhh Sunwards. We barely even knew ye. $50 1/60 VF-1s would have been really really nice. Thanks HG/Toynami. I'm glad your MP line was so up to par.

Oh, and I've hereby dub Roger the King of Circular Logic. Just look in the "Is Yamato Greedy?" thread.

Vostok 7

Edited December 16, 2008 by Vostok 7

[VFTF1]

Maybe HG is well convinced that the Robotech movie will become a reality and they figure they better "clean up" the market now so that they can capitalize on the movie later? (or at least that's the plan) ?

As for who am I to tell people what to do:

There is a difference between telling people what they "should" do or "ought" to do and telling them what they "must" do.

By simply my saying "you guys should x,y and z" that doesn't mean I'm telling anybody to do anything - it's just a suggestion, like "hey you should really get this toy because it's so cool."

By contrast, it is toynami/HG telling American consumers "you MUST get our stuff or not be interested in Macross"

Finally:

a) even if some of the designs in DYRL are derivative of designs in SDFM TV, they are not perfectly the same - unless the designs were stipulated and attached to the licensing agreement, and again - derivatives do not fall within the rights of HG. I could see them only trying to block the import of TV accurate Strike/Super parts - but blocking VF-1s from DYRL - which are the majority of Yamato products - falls outside of their rights if we define them as being limited to merely SDFM TV.

b) if it's such a frivolous matter - then why won't HG/Toynami just treat it as such at let people who like Yamato valkyrie buy them and sell them?

And I still don't understand the mustard thing - I thought I understood - but I still don't. Please explain.

Pete

[Salamander]

In Europe -

May I suggest you leave Europe out of this?

HG certainly doesn't force Robotech DVDs and toys onto us, and, in fact, the only Macross DVD set released so far (besides M2 and M+) has nicely accurate subs and uses the remastered Japanese animation and soundtrack. AFAIK, it is officially licensed from Harmony Gold/Tatsunoko, but that's about all of their involvement, since it was actually produced by a French company. It only mentions Robotech in the booklet, in a very, very neutral way. It does feature the openings and endings of M7 in the bonusses and some other stuff. Heck, MW is even mentioned in the booklet.

This all makes me believe that what may apply to the US with regards to HG does not necessarily apply to Europe.

[Mr March]

And this is where the thread goes from typical MW fanboy whining and blowing things out of proportion into the realm of the jaw-droppingly stupid.

Never change, MW.

*Cheers*

But you have to admit, the fast food analogies being thrown around this silly thread are comedy gold

[VFTF1]

Salamander:

May I suggest you leave Europe out of this [....makes numerous points]....since it was actually produced by a French company.

So I can't talk about Europe but you can mention a French Company? This must be along the same mystical lines of reasoning as the Mustard analogy

Pete

[Vostok 7]

Salamander:

So I can't talk about Europe but you can mention a French Company? This must be along the same mystical lines of reasoning as the Mustard analogy

Pete

I think, but I'm just guessing here, that the point was HG's Fascist control of Macross doesn't seem to extend much into Europe, hence they were able to make a nice Macross DVD set in France. Or something?

Vostok 7

[VFTF1]

I think, but I'm just guessing here, that the point was HG's Fascist control of Macross doesn't seem to extend much into Europe, hence they were able to make a nice Macross DVD set in France. Or something?

That was my inference as well - but since I got the Mustard at Wendys thing wrong, then I've decided not to jump the gun and wait it out; see what other people think as well

Pete

[Vostok 7]

That was my inference as well - but since I got the Mustard at Wendys thing wrong, then I've decided not to jump the gun and wait it out; see what other people think as well

Pete

At this point I'm betting that the mustard thing was just a ruse to try to prove the "absurdity" of our arguments. Either that or he just likes to see the things he types. See: Most of his responses in the Yamato is Greedy thread for reference.

Vostok 7

[the white drew carey]

I recieved a response from Joel at BBTS. Well-worded and fairly straight-forward. While I disagree with the decision, at least the president was willing to respond directly.

What got me, though, was this sentence:

Toynami will be officially importing Bandai Macross items (along with many other Bandai items), so while we won't be carrying the Yamato lineup, we should have an expanded selection of Bandai items as well as other Bandai items.

I may be out of the loop, but don't recall hearing about this before.

Also, in response to JBO's assertion that this is old news because HG has been throwing hissy fits for 15 years is grossly incorrect, and is also part of the impetus for this isue in the first place.

The many reasons for scrutiny and disbelief in HG's claims goes back to Macross II and Macross Plus. During the early to mid-nineties, both products were actively licensed and distrubuted in NA without HG's permission. The argument that "no one was minding the store" at the time and, hence, certain licenses got past them fails for two very serious reasons:

1) HG was actively licensing the Macross product in the form of, mostly, comic books and the N64 game Robotech: Crystal Dreams. So, if the company was active in managing their product, there obviously was someone minding the store. The statement that MII and M+ slipped under their radar is also suspect, as both were highly anticipated products in the market.

2) The fact that Tatsunoko actively licensed Macross-related products outside of HG. Case in point is the Battletech kits (which were repacked Nichimo kits) which were sold via First Century Imports (?) and licensed from Tatsunoko in the mid-80s. HG and FASA eventually came to closed agreement on the usage of the Macross-based designs much later (90's, 00s?), so we are still left in the dark about the legal status of the product.

I've followed this issue for quite a long time and, through it all, I'm of the opinion that HG's rights to Macross are limited and, possibly, vaguely worded. Except for the FASA incident, they have yet to back up their legal claims with any hard evidence and are probably using the threat of legal action and C&D orders in the hopes that no one will attempt to force their hand.

The one best example (SpideyJerusalem) of someone standing up to HG ended with a whimper as HG quietly faded back into the woodwork.

I tell you, if I ever win a large lottery, I will challenge HG simply to get this whole thing resolved.

Edited December 16, 2008 by the white drew carey

[Roger]

I may be out of the loop, but don't recall hearing about this before.

You're out of the loop. Toynami is going to be importing Bandai's Soul of Chogokin toys and other items, and they solicited pre-orders for Bandai's Origin of Valkyrie toys (which have since been delayed). They've been announcing this for at least six months.

[Vostok 7]

2) The fact that Tatsunoko actively licensed Macross-related products outside of HG. Case in point is the Battletech kits (which were repacked Nichimo kits) which were sold via First Century Imports (?) and licensed from Tatsunoko. HG and FASA eventually came to closed agreement on the usage of the Macross-based designs, so we are still left in the dark about the legal status of the product.

We do know what came of this. All of the TROs and other books using the Macross designs were reprinted with those designs removed, and then new designs were put out. For some period, the designs just weren't used at all and they came to be called the "Unseen" Mechs, because they were referenced everywhere (being pretty well liked, popular and widely spread designs) but never seen after HG got their hands into the mix. The new designs put forth haven't caught on (along with the fact that Classic Battletech is pretty much dead thanks to WizKids, though other companies are trying hard to restart it with the blessing of WizKids) and so they're largely unused anymore, all thanks to HG.

Example: MechWarrior II and all it's variants made liberal use of Macross designs, but none of them, not even the redesigns, have shown up in any subsequent release (even though under Microsoft's direction the games have only ventured further and further away from the core of Battletech, like the *shudder* MechAssault series).

The annoying and frustrating thing about it is that those designs were used long enough by the Battletech franchise that they became such a part of the Battletech universe (I remember even thinking when I saw the ExoSquad/Robotech toy releases that they were taken from Battletech!) that as a fan of Battletech (and a lover of those designs) it was quite frustrating that HG just ignored it for so long (even through all the ExoSquad/Robotech cross licensing and other activities) and then finally decided to get a bee up it's butt about FASA using the designs nearly 20 years after the fact.

This is why I have such a problem with their tactics. I've felt the coldness of their greed from two sides that they've practically killed (though Macross in the US has fared much better in spite of HG's meddling, Battletech was practically decimated by it. It has been said that FASA failed because of HG's litigation), so I have VERY little sympathy for their causes.

Vostok 7

Edited December 16, 2008 by Vostok 7

[the white drew carey]

You're out of the loop. Toynami is going to be importing Bandai's Soul of Chogokin toys and other items, and they solicited pre-orders for Bandai's Origin of Valkyrie toys (which have since been delayed). They've been announcing this for at least six months.

Thanks for the info.

[the white drew carey]

We do know what came of this. All of the TROs and other books using the Macross designs were reprinted with those designs removed, and then new designs were put out. For some period, the designs just weren't used at all and they came to be called the "Unseen" Mechs, because they were referenced everywhere (being pretty well liked, popular and widely spread designs) but never seen after HG got their hands into the mix. The new designs put forth haven't caught on (along with the fact that Classic Battletech is pretty much dead thanks to WizKids, though other companies are trying hard to restart it with the blessing of WizKids) and so they're largely unused anymore, all thanks to HG.

Example: MechWarrior II and all it's variants made liberal use of Macross designs, but none of them, not even the redesigns, have shown up in any subsequent release (even though under Microsoft's direction the games have only ventured further and further away from the core of Battletech, like the *shudder* MechAssault series).

The annoying and frustrating thing about it is that those designs were used long enough by the Battletech franchise that they became such a part of the Battletech universe (I remember even thinking when I saw the ExoSquad/Robotech toy releases that they were taken from Battletech!) that as a fan of Battletech (and a lover of those designs) it was quite frustrating that HG just ignored it for so long (even through all the ExoSquad/Robotech cross licensing and other activities) and then finally decided to get a bee up it's butt about FASA using the designs nearly 20 years after the fact.

This is why I have such a problem with their tactics. I've felt the coldness of their greed from two sides that they've practically killed (though Macross in the US has fared much better in spite of HG's meddling, Battletech was practically decimated by it. It has been said that FASA failed because of HG's litigation), so I have VERY little sympathy for their causes.

Vostok 7

I never said we didn't know. I'm assuming you were referring to my statement about the legal status of the product. What I was referring to was the status of HG/Macross.

This is only a guess, but I think FASA's mistake was assuming that, since they had purchased a license to release the model kits, they may have thought they had rights to the images as well.

The question here is, does HG have the same false thinking? I'm guessing they do.

[Mr March]

This is only a guess, but I think FASA's mistake was assuming that, since they had purchased a license to release the model kits, they may have thought they had rights to the images as well.

The question here is, does HG have the same false thinking? I'm guessing they do.

So would I and the Japanese court ruling which awarded rights for the Macross characters and images to Big West would seem to support that interpretation. It seems likely Tatsunoko never had the rights to the images and thus HG could never be given them, only the rights to distribute the show internationally.

Edited December 16, 2008 by Mr March

[Excillon]

You know what the sad part of all this is? with 8088 members currently on here, if everyone threw 10 bucks in a pot, we'd have over 80,000 US to retain a lawyer and fight HG, unless there's a lawyer on here. That might do some damage.

[jenius]

Do some damage to whom? What would we be suing for? HG has the rights to the show and the merchandising for it, a Japanese court even recognized that in the judgment that made it clear HG owned no derivative or intellectual rights.

[Vostok 7]

Do some damage to whom? What would we be suing for? HG has the rights to the show and the merchandising for it, a Japanese court even recognized that in the judgment that made it clear HG owned no derivative or intellectual rights.

Your post, it makes no sense. HG has the rights to the show and the merchandising for it (the intellectual property), even though a Japanese court made it clear that they didn't?

And how can you have rights if you never legally owned the rights in the first place?

Vostok 7

Edited December 17, 2008 by Vostok 7

[Excillon]

Your post, it makes no sense. HG has the rights to the show and the merchandising for it (the intellectual property), even though a Japanese court made it clear that they didn't?

And how can you have rights if you never legally owned the rights in the first place?

Vostok 7

Furthermore, HG owns the rights to ROBOTECH. That would be SDF:M, Southern Cross, and Mospeada. You can add in the Sentinels and that lame Shadow Chronicles as well. Maybe even Megazone, since they had some sick perverted thing going on with that too.

However, why should HG be able to block Macross Zero, Seven and Frontier? Here's how I see it:

Macross Zero: Ok, Roy's in it. A prolific character of both RT and SDF:M. But, that's it. Why should HG get ANYTHING from it, when they had nothing, and I mean NOTHING to do with it? No mecha designs, no other characters, NOTHING! What, they should get a chunk of money because a character that they didn't even come up with owns the rights to it in NA? Actually, his last name is even spelled different. So technically, it's like Smith and Smyth. Two different people, arguably. And maybe the mecha is "simular", but not by much.

Macross Seven: Ok, it wouldn't be a big hit over here. But the same as the argument for Zero. Max and Millia Jenius vs. Max and Miriya Sterling. So you could really argue this one, except why when the only people that would welcome a US release and English dub would be hardcore fans.

Macross Frontier: Now this REALLY, REALLY pisses me off. For the most part, it has NOTHING to do with SDF:M, save for a couple Homages/references. Why can't we have it?

I guess here's the way I see it. HG, if they were smart, would unblock the Macross flow for TV/DVD releases, treating RT and SDF as separate universes. Allow it for maybe 15% of the take, maybe 30% if they dub it, translate it, all that jazz. Then, get Toynami to actually make something better than MPC's and 1/100's. Or, cut ties with Toynami, pick up Yamato or share with Bandai, and go from there.

Best case scenario: Bandai sees the potential in Macross, especially with Gundam basically dead in NA, and buys HG (which they could afford, I'm sure), and disintegrates the company and RT is no more. Then, Carl Macek and Tommy Yune are dropped off naked on an obscure island populated by cannibals covered in steaksauce, with the bottles shoved up their...well you get the point. I mean, how much could HG be worth anyway? Not THAT much I'm sure.

On another note, how did Macross Plus and 2 ever get slipped into a US release?

[jenius]

Uh, your post makes no sense. Not once did I say that HG has the intellectual rights... in fact I make it clear in EVERY post they own the rights to the original SHOW and merchandising rights for it. They DON'T own the intellectual rights, the characters, the story, etc. They can't remake Macross, they can't make a new valk that looks just like the VF-1, they can't have characters that look like they're straight from Macross in another show, etc. They have no rights to derivatives like MacII or Mac+. They never had THOSE rights because Tats could never sell them THOSE rights, they DO have the rights to the show and the merchandising.

However, why should HG be able to block Macross Zero, Seven and Frontier? Here's how I see it:

HG TRIED to exercise rights they didn't have until a Japanese court gave them the smack down. They then copyrighted the name "Macross" creating more problems. They claim they are no longer standing in the way of Frontier etc. and none of the recent events disprove this. All they did with BBTS is tell them to drop bringing in stuff from the original Macross (although they may have said "any Macross merchandise" due to that move with the copyright).

Edited December 17, 2008 by jenius

[David Hingtgen]

Except that HG seems to have the mechandising rights at least for DYRL, which is "derivative" and not part of Robotech. So they have rights to more than just the "core animation used for Robotech".

Perhaps it's a time thing? DYRL existed prior to Robotech's first airing AFAIK.

[Excillon]

Uh, your post makes no sense. Not once did I say that HG has the intellectual rights... in fact I make it clear in EVERY post they own the rights to the original SHOW and merchandising rights for it. They DON'T own the intellectual rights, the characters, the story, etc. They can't remake Macross, they can't make a new valk that looks just like the VF-1, they can't have characters that look like they're straight from Macross in another show, etc. They have no rights to derivatives like MacII or Mac+. They never had THOSE rights because Tats could never sell them THOSE rights, they DO have the rights to the show and the merchandising.

HG TRIED to exercise rights they didn't have until a Japanese court gave them the smack down. They then copyrighted the name "Macross" creating more problems. They claim they are no longer standing in the way of Frontier etc. and none of the recent events disprove this. All they did with BBTS is tell them to drop bringing in stuff from the original Macross (although they may have said "any Macross merchandise" due to that move with the copyright).

I wasn't addressing necessarily what you said, just in general. I just think it's stupid, because if they could all agree, they could all make a nice profit. They're all greedy bastards as far as I'm concerned, but the funny thing is they're all shooting themselves in the foot over a potential profit that doesn't exsist for any of them at the moment.

[HWR MKII]

And that train of thought is the exact cause of all the frustration. If HG worked with bandai and other companies all could profit. Instead it seems they keep shooting each other down.

[ruskiiVFaussie]

^

^

Agree with you Excillon.

Best case scenario: Bandai sees the potential in Macross, especially with Gundam basically dead in NA, and buys HG (which they could afford, I'm sure), and disintegrates the company and RT is no more. Then, Carl Macek and Tommy Yune are dropped off naked on an obscure island populated by cannibals covered in steaksauce, with the bottles shoved up their...well you get the point. I mean, how much could HG be worth anyway? Not THAT much I'm sure.

On another note, how did Macross Plus and 2 ever get slipped into a US release?

rotfl! if only.

Edited December 17, 2008 by ruskiiVFaussie

[jenius]

I wasn't addressing necessarily what you said, just in general. I just think it's stupid, because if they could all agree, they could all make a nice profit. They're all greedy bastards as far as I'm concerned, but the funny thing is they're all shooting themselves in the foot over a potential profit that doesn't exsist for any of them at the moment.

I whole heartedly agree, and I don't mean to sound pro-HG by any means (or pro-BW or anyone else for that matter).

[taksraven]

This question has probably been answered before, but do we know if HG will EVER lose the control it has over Macross in the US? Is it something that will end with time?

Taksraven

[jenius]

No, HG will not lose control so long as they remain a company and don't sell the rights. Licensing agreements for anime have become a lot more sophisticated but back in the days when HG made the deal with Tats they were pretty informal. The HG license is probably something like "HG can use everything Macross. Domo Macek-san." written on the bottom of a cocktail napkin after a late night and a handshake.

Edited December 17, 2008 by jenius

[JB0]

I would contend that what HG is doing effectively co-equal with trying to ban Americans from enjoying Japanese Macross, and therefore trying to infringe upon the right to free speech.

They haven't blocked importation of J DVDs. They have, in fact, made english-translated DVDs of that part of Macross they can get masters for readily available.

In FACT, our SDF Macross DVDs are BETTER THAN JAPAN'S.

That said - how does a copyright law which leads to a situation like this protect the pre-existing natural right to free speech? If it leads to a situation where a company can muscle retailers to compel them not to sell the competition's products and never has to show any legal basis for doing so - then I contend that the law is not working as it should - it is not protecting the pre-existing rights that it should.

How has free speech been violated? Other than HG's own boards, which last I heard, have dedicated Macross, MOSPEADA, and Southern Cross sections, where have they attempted to moderate speech in the slightest?

Free speech is not license to pirate. Which is what undermining HG's alleged license would be: piracy(of the modern kind, of course, not the classical ARRR, MATEY! kind).

Or are you also arguing that Disney's refusal to publish Song of the South on US DVD is in fact in violation of my freedom of speech rights?

In this sense - it is a free speech issue and Americans have a constitutional right to enjoy Macross as the Japanese concieved it if they so wish. No one is saying that Harmony Gold doesn't have the right to promote Robotech and to build on that universe and to even use "their" version of Macross (SDF TV) which was foundational for Robotech. I don't see Yamato or BW prancing around the globe trying to get retailers to stop selling Robotech or fighting battles about it.

And if they'd covered their rears back in the 80s before they knew this was going to be a huge franchise, there wouldn't be any debate now.

So - clearly we have a breakdown in the legal system.The law, which should protect our rights, is not doing so.

Arguably, it's not protecting Big West's rights. But that's dependent on Big West caring enough to make a case.

Your twisting of free speech to include buying plastic toys is comical at best, and disgusting at worst.

This is why I think Macross fans should write their congressmen and petition their government to look into copyright laws. Globalization and the emergence of the internet have changed the dynamics and the way the world works. Of course rights always stay the same - but how we protect and apply protections to them changes depending on circumstances. It's time copyright laws were changed to reflect existing reality.

This doesn't mean making a free for all that does not respect the rights of creators to their work. But it does mean thinking about various new situations which could not arise prior to the internet which now exist and making laws that try to deal fairly with these situations.

You're saying we need to write our congressmen and tell them they need to rewrite the copyright law to invalidate existing licenses because of a 20-year-old cartoon?

In Europe - or at least in Poland, this question is also actually somewhat of an issue; although not so much with regard to HG as with regard to Disney.

Why not Macross?

Are you guys getting your DYRL BluRay remasters and your 1/48 Yamatos?

But I am saying that there is a problem here with this situation and it can't just be brushed aside the way it is now "oh we can't tell you what their license says we can't show it to you but it's there even though no court has ruled on it, oh, maybe one court did" - which one? A local court? A state court? A federal court? An international arbitrage court?

There is no court ruling.

There IS a license, but no one knows what specifically it says(except the old FASA guys).

The problem is no one actually affected cares enough to argue the point. WE are not affected, because WE are not trying to release Valk toys or licensed english DVDs.

All it takes is ONE person pushing the issue to bring it to court.

In any event - Harmony Gold is only harming itself. By prolonging this fight they are pouring their resources into a legal battle that will only harm the development of their product.

What legal battle? Cease and desist letters are cheap, and none have actually started a fight. Not even when they were demanding all infringing merchandise be shipped to HG headquarters(which is NOT part of US copyright law, in any way).

All the more since clearly Bandai, BW, Tats and every other Japanese entity involved has attempted to come to a gentlemanly agreement with them.

More like doesn't care.

Big West is being apathetic.

Tatsunoko is very much on HG's side, as they're the ones benefiting financially(and as I understand it, Big West is a major shareholder in Tatsunoko nowadays anyway).

Bandai has better things to do than fight Big West's legal battles for them.

But if they can't agree - then are Americans to sit idely by while corporate in-fighting destroys their chance of enjoying a franchise they like?

I can import my toys. I can import my DVDs. I can download subtitles for my DVDs.

My enjoyment of the franchise is largely unaffected.

And again, explain how this is an AMERICAN issue and not a GLOBAL issue.

HG claims they purchased ALL rights outside Japan from Tatsunoko.

[JB0]

May I suggest you leave Europe out of this?

HG certainly doesn't force Robotech DVDs and toys onto us, and, in fact, the only Macross DVD set released so far (besides M2 and M+) has nicely accurate subs and uses the remastered Japanese animation and soundtrack. AFAIK, it is officially licensed from Harmony Gold/Tatsunoko, but that's about all of their involvement, since it was actually produced by a French company. It only mentions Robotech in the booklet, in a very, very neutral way. It does feature the openings and endings of M7 in the bonusses and some other stuff. Heck, MW is even mentioned in the booklet.

This all makes me believe that what may apply to the US with regards to HG does not necessarily apply to Europe.

The remaster was given to them by HG, who got it from Animeigo.

So it's not only officially licensed, they got their source materials from HG.

In fact, Animeigo did the hard part, the french company just retranslated and made a new package.

[taksraven]

I think Macross Plus and 2 got released because HG was asleep at the wheel at the time. In Australia at least the popularity of anime has had its ups and downs and both these Macross titles came out at a time when there was a new 'boom' starting.

It was the time in Australia when Manga released a heap of cool anime titles at about roughly the same time. (These titles included the two macross ones, fist of the north star, project a-ko, ninja scroll, legend of the overfiend, etc....)

Taksraven

[Roy Focker]

That settles it!

Where is Skullone? We need to bring him back! Release the Kraken!