Robotech and HG license debates

[capt.actionjackson]

I didn't realize that HG claimed to OWN a stake in Macross through Tat. That puts a wrinkle in there. But, if the Tokyo court ruled that BW owns the rights to SDF doesn't that make HG's "right" to Macross void? And how does their perceived ownership of SDF extend to DYRL? They have yet to try and release their copy of that (even though they had that web page a couple of years ago). But, they release toys (and are making more) under the DYRL name?

[kensei]

What bothers me, is why HG so intently hold on to Macross.

Is it because they have F#$K all else for them to make money?

Think of it, my collection could have been at least 10% bigger, or I would have finally moved on to collecting all of the DVD's already!

Edited February 19, 2006 by kensei

[Radd]

capt.actionjackson, the courts did not rule against Tatsunoko's international merchandising or distribution rights to SDF Macross, only the idea that Tatsunoko owned copyright on the designs and derivatives.

In fact, against Big West, the court decided that Tatsunoko did have domestic distribution rights to SDF Macross, meaning Tatsunoko, not Big West, could distribute the original tv series in Japan.

All of this has been covered at length, and in great detail in this thread (at least, I believe the thread has that material still in it, might have restarted since), so I reccomend researching it that way, rather than dredging up old arguments.

[cwbrown]

There was that court dispute between Tatsunoko and Big West that concluded that Tatsunoko didn't actually own any copyrights on the designs in Macross, or any stake in derivative works.

I only put the quote up to demonstrate that whatever Tat owns, HG co-owns. It answers the question "How long is HG's license/contract?" The answer, in perpetuity.

Big West's stance seems to be that HG only has international merchandising and distribution rights to the original SDF Macross, and nothing else. The conclusions of the Tokyo circuit court would seem to support that.

As I recall when I found the case, got it translated, tried to get an understanding, and posted it (yes, that was me), the case only dealt with the domestic (Japan only) rights. It did not address what rights Tat had outside Japan. My own belief (and this is just speculation) is that Tat wanted to do something with Macross inside Japan, which led to the lawsuit.

Furthermore, neither you nor I know what BW's stance is. BW's licensee's have talked about releasing products, HG has done its C&Ds, the licensees back off. That doesn't demonstrate anybody's stance (other than HG's continuing belief it has the right to stop these licensees). As far as I know, BW has never made its "stance" regarding the international market public.

Additionally, if I recall correctly, HG and FASA settled out of court on a condition that FASA not disclose information on the matter to the public.

371549[/snapback]

And? Yes, there was a settlement, and it does apparently contain a confidentiality agreement. So what? Many, many settlement agreements contain confidentiality agreements of one form or another. Parties usually don't want their dirty laundry splashed all over the place. The settlement also means that HG can't disucss it either. But there is no "hidden" meaning behind it.

[Radd]

This thread is almost entirely speculation, cwbrown. I only stated what it seems BW's stance is based on observation. That is a very useful word in speculation and observation, 'seems'.

I only mentioned the additional information about the FASA case because someone brought it up recently in the thread. Confidentiality agreements may be common in settlements, and there may very well be no hidden meaning (not that anyone has recently suggested there was), but the case provides no solid information.

[cwbrown]

This thread is almost entirely speculation, cwbrown. I only stated what it seems BW's stance is based on observation. That is a very useful word in speculation and observation, 'seems'.

I only mentioned the additional information about the FASA case because someone brought it up recently in the thread. Confidentiality agreements may be common in settlements, and there may very well be no hidden meaning (not that anyone has recently suggested there was), but the case provides no solid information.

371758[/snapback]

I apologize that I apparently read more into your statements than you meant. I've been following this issue for a long time and the uncalled for speculation has run rampant (starting with anime news networks first article). Guess my automatic reaction overdid it there.

[me3]

I'd bet good money that HG was making threats, and Bandai didn't want to deal with the legal bickering. Without concrete proof it would be a major blockbuster(which would've REQUIRED a release), it's easier to just drop the release, take the tax writeoff, and find something else to recoup the losses. They knew there was enough market to justify a localization, but not that there was enough market to commit an unknown but signifigant quantity of resources to courtroom brawls with no guarantee of victory, or a known and signifigant amount to an HG license(which might result in a pulled Big West license).

This is, to me, the bigger issue. There's no real way to fully enjoy the recent games without a translation, and the fan translation scene hasn't stepped up. That, of course, assumes either a modded system or emulator to render a fan translation playable(even if you actually own the disk, you'll have to rip an image to patch, and then burn a new disk that the system's copy protection won't like).

I wish the two worlds would seperate. Robotech fans got thier versions of macross valks, while at the same time macross fans could buy macross valks and games. Everyone getting what they wanted and leaving the fanbase to decide with thier wallet. I mean in macross we don't have Jack Archer!

If you are a fan of both robotech and macross you got to take sides due to the legal probs. They really need to sort this out lest the very macross franchise gets old and worthless for the sake of the fans who have the money and don't want to waste it importing.

371483[/snapback]

Yes, and at the same time, Robotech fans don't have Major Nex... I did like the Battlecry game- much better than Invasion. But it would have been nice to be able to get the imports as well without having to mod a console and pay up the butt.

[me3]

I didn't realize that HG claimed to OWN a stake in Macross through Tat.  That puts a wrinkle in there.  But, if the Tokyo court ruled that BW owns the rights to SDF doesn't that make HG's "right" to Macross void?  And how does their perceived ownership of SDF extend to DYRL?  They have yet to try and release their copy of that (even though they had that web page a couple of years ago).  But, they release toys (and are making more) under the DYRL name?

371563[/snapback]

Then what exactly was "Clash of the bionoids"? How did that horrible version released here in the U.S.?

[JB0]

Furthermore, neither you nor I know what BW's stance is.  BW's licensee's have talked about releasing products, HG has done its C&Ds, the licensees back off.  That doesn't demonstrate anybody's stance (other than HG's continuing belief it has the right to stop these licensees).  As far as I know, BW has never made its "stance" regarding the international market public.

It's not stated, but it's implied by actions.

A while back, Tokyopop wanted to release Macross 7 Trash. They got a license from Big West. Then they got a license from HG. Then HG started hyping it. Then they lost the Big West license. Then HG deleted the Trash news articles on their website.

While it's fan speculation(no statements were made that I know of), it's believed they lost the BW license for playing ball with HG. As HG claims that "Macross is © Tatsunoko Productions", seemingly across the entire franchise, for Trash to carry HG's seal of approval and legal boilerplate would have been damaging to BW's legal standing. Especially they were actively suing Tatsunoko over copyright at the time.

It's a safe bet that BW is anti-HG until such time as HG backs off on their Tatsunoko copyright claims.

And as BW has licensed distributors for non-SDF products in the past without Tatsunoko's or HG's involvement(see Plus and 2), they likely don't agree with HG's interpretation of the distribution license either.

[SpacyAce2012]

This thread is almost entirely speculation, cwbrown. I only stated what it seems BW's stance is based on observation. That is a very useful word in speculation and observation, 'seems'.

I only mentioned the additional information about the FASA case because someone brought it up recently in the thread. Confidentiality agreements may be common in settlements, and there may very well be no hidden meaning (not that anyone has recently suggested there was), but the case provides no solid information.

371758[/snapback]

That would be me who bought it up out of curiosity. If Twentieth Century Imports had a legal licence from Tatsunoko Productions, then FASA had ground to stand on. I base this on the fact that the posted quote from the court document, the date HG recieved on their licence was 1/15/1984. It is my understanding that FASA had recieved their licence sometime in late 1983 (the Battledroids game was released in 1984, quiet a bit of time before Robotech hit the airwaves).

I suspect that FASA was the one who wanted to settle out of court with Harmony Gold. The 1990's was a bad decade for the gaming industry. FASA was hurting like everyone else. And they were involved in two separate suits( the Playmates suit was separate from the HG suit. And FASA lost that one because they pushed for too much). FASA had taken a bit hit in the wallet, and fighting HG would have sunk the company far sooner than when it did finally happen.

Of course this is just speculation on my part on FASA's motives.

Edited February 21, 2006 by SpacyAce2012

[SpacyAce2012]

Furthermore, neither you nor I know what BW's stance is.  BW's licensee's have talked about releasing products, HG has done its C&Ds, the licensees back off.  That doesn't demonstrate anybody's stance (other than HG's continuing belief it has the right to stop these licensees).  As far as I know, BW has never made its "stance" regarding the international market public.

It's not stated, but it's implied by actions.

A while back, Tokyopop wanted to release Macross 7 Trash. They got a license from Big West. Then they got a license from HG. Then HG started hyping it. Then they lost the Big West license. Then HG deleted the Trash news articles on their website.

While it's fan speculation(no statements were made that I know of), it's believed they lost the BW license for playing ball with HG. As HG claims that "Macross is © Tatsunoko Productions", seemingly across the entire franchise, for Trash to carry HG's seal of approval and legal boilerplate would have been damaging to BW's legal standing. Especially they were actively suing Tatsunoko over copyright at the time.

It's a safe bet that BW is anti-HG until such time as HG backs off on their Tatsunoko copyright claims.

And as BW has licensed distributors for non-SDF products in the past without Tatsunoko's or HG's involvement(see Plus and 2), they likely don't agree with HG's interpretation of the distribution license either.

372111[/snapback]

Weither or not HG waves their licence around for all to see, how the hell can they make that stand? It was my understanding that Tatsunoko only has international distribution rights to those series they had a hand in. I didn't think that would include anything after DYRL/FB2012(?). So, how can Harmony Gold U.S.A. attempt to block anything after the original series itself (toys,OAVs,etc). As far as I know, this was the only thing Tatsunoko licenced to them.

Even if it didn't go to court, what's to stop some company from getting a distribution license from Big West for, say, Macross Zero to put out on the international market. They could tell HG to go to hell, and I 'm willing to bet that HG would back down. Because HG would have to put up or shut up. And they know they have nothing to stand on.

That's why I'm wondering if HG's BS claims and the mere threat of HG screaming "lawsuit!" is all there is to it.

And I don't include M7 in this because the Victor licenseing angle hurts that series as well.

[JB0]

Weither or not HG waves their licence around for all to see, how the hell can they make that stand? It was my understanding that Tatsunoko only has international distribution rights to those series they had a hand in. I didn't think that would include anything after DYRL/FB2012(?). So, how can Harmony Gold U.S.A. attempt to block anything after the original series itself (toys,OAVs,etc). As far as I know, this was the only thing Tatsunoko licenced to them.

Even if it didn't go to court, what's to stop some company from getting a distribution license from Big West for, say, Macross Zero to put out on the international market.  They could tell HG to go to hell, and I 'm willing to bet that HG would back down. Because HG would have to put up or shut up. And they know they have nothing to stand on.

That's why I'm wondering if HG's BS claims and the mere threat of HG screaming "lawsuit!" is all there is to it.

It's possible the contract is worded vaguely enough that lawyers could fuss back and forth all day.

Either way, HG doesn't NEED an iron-clad contract. They just need to be loud.

The bigger companies prefer to go after the greatest profit. Regardless of who wins, a legal battle cuts into profits, thus making Macross products less attractive than other products without legal battles attached.

The smaller companies can't afford to fight things either way.

Screaming "lawsuit!" quite likely IS all there is to it. But it's also all that needs to be there, unfortunately.

And I don't include M7 in this because the Victor licenseing angle hurts that series as well.

372166[/snapback]

Being a manga, Trash had no music for Victor to demand it's share of.

Which is why it was picked up, as it seemed a straightforward enough license.

[SpacyAce2012]

I know. I wasn't including M7 Trash in my mention of M7, just the T.V. Series.

But the Trash deal did spark my curiosity. I tend to believe that the speculation regarding it may have more than grain of truth to it.

[Sumdumgai]

M7 Trash got released in France. HG claims to hold all rights to Macross outside of Japan, correct? Looks like Trash slipped through their fingers once before. HAHA.

[Gui]

Yup: if memory serves, I said this a while back in this thread. I've the entire M7 Trash collection on my shelves since years and absolutely none of these books give credit to HG in any way, they aren't even mentioned...

HG is a big-mouthed baffoon

[Renato]

Being a manga, Trash had no music for Victor to demand it's share of.

Which is why it was picked up, as it seemed a straightforward enough license.

372174[/snapback]

But there were lines taken from the lyrics of the song DYRL, within M7 Trash. I remember there is a credit within the small print in the manga to Victor and the JASRAC registration of the actual song with regards to these lines.

[Pat Payne]

Then what exactly was "Clash of the bionoids"? How did that horrible version released here in the U.S.?

372100[/snapback]

IIRC, Toho was responsible for that train wreck. They had been awarded (before the legal FUBAR) distro rights outside of Japan. Those rights are either gone or on legal hold pending a resolution of the BW/HG-Tat legal circus.

[me3]

Then what exactly was "Clash of the bionoids"? How did that horrible version released here in the U.S.?

372100[/snapback]

IIRC, Toho was responsible for that train wreck. They had been awarded (before the legal FUBAR) distro rights outside of Japan. Those rights are either gone or on legal hold pending a resolution of the BW/HG-Tat legal circus.

385458[/snapback]

So, is it then impossible to buy in the US a copy of DYRL? I would like to see a version of this that isn't on a 15 year old vhs tape with sound that resembles talking inside a tin can, and a dubbing so terrible that the voice actors must be mentally challenged.

[JB0]

Then what exactly was "Clash of the bionoids"? How did that horrible version released here in the U.S.?

372100[/snapback]

IIRC, Toho was responsible for that train wreck. They had been awarded (before the legal FUBAR) distro rights outside of Japan. Those rights are either gone or on legal hold pending a resolution of the BW/HG-Tat legal circus.

385458[/snapback]

So, is it then impossible to buy in the US a copy of DYRL? I would like to see a version of this that isn't on a 15 year old vhs tape with sound that resembles talking inside a tin can, and a dubbing so terrible that the voice actors must be mentally challenged.

386933[/snapback]

Pretty much.

There's some documentation problems that confuse the DYRL issue further, if I recall. I think there;s 3 or 4 companies that think they MIGHT have the rights, but none of them are sure.

If it was JUST HG, they could point to the VHS releases and say HG lost their chance to prosecute by ignoring it then.

And that's why you see Macross 2 DVDs but not DYRL.

[isamu]

Wow I wonder if this whole mess will EVER be over? Guess wanting a US release of DYRL and M7 are still wishful thinking?

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Big west should just release an english version of DYRL in japan, then everyone imports copies from japan.

Release english versions of macross games in japan, then everyone imports them from japan.

And then in exchange all japanese fans of robotech can just import robotech games and dvds from the us.

Man, sooo sickening. If they'd just come up with a deal we could all be playing macross games on our game systems, buying yamato valks from retail, (hehe) and US fans of macross can watch future macross series (if there is going to be any). The losers in the end are the fans.

Edited April 10, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Roy Focker]

English versions of Macross games in japan would be nice but if you import them you still have to modify your game system to play them.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

So as long as my dollars go to whoever made the thing I will be happy. Modding has never been a prob for me.

As for dvd, most people I know have multiregion player anyway.

[Sumdumgai]

I mostly play Japanese games anyway. I might as well just get a japanese system or a boot disc. Only thing I played in English that had to be that way was MGS3: Or how to stop worrying and looooooooooooooooooooooooooove the snaaaake.

Heh I remember when they were developing Robotech Crystal Dreams for N64 and people were so excited about it. There were rumors of "Minmei" having a shower scene. 9_9 Yeah right.

[Radd]

I don't recall any rumours of a shower scene, but they did jokingly record the audio of Minmei getting sucked out an airlock. At least, I assume it was a joke.

[Sumdumgai]

Damn they might have been able to lure me into being excited about the game if they had Robotech Minmei getting sucked out an airlock. lol

I do like Macross Minmay though, although DYRL beats out the TV series one for me.

[Skullsixx]

Yup: if memory serves, I said this a while back in this thread. I've the entire M7 Trash collection on my shelves since years and absolutely none of these books give credit to HG in any way, they aren't even mentioned...

HG is a big-mouthed baffoon 

372406[/snapback]

DAMN RIGHT!!! Screw HG! Why won't this company just... go away?

[Zinjo]

Well now that Takara owns Tatsunoko, it will be interesting to see how things develop.

Takara may sell the rights back to Big West or partner with them in this matter to gain access to the other Macross titles to exploit.

With Takara and Tomy merging, it is clear that Takara is sticking with what it knows best, toy making, so making peace with Big West is in it's best interest.

Thus, if Takara sells or offers BW administrative control over international distribution of SDF Macross then HG will be forced to deal with BW and come to some sort of agreement. Either the two would move forward or HG would risk it's future, with regards to the "Macross Saga" component of their RT series.

[Roy Focker]

Well if Takara decides to sell it back or something like that. I'm sure this wouldn't change HG standing. HG most likely has a contract of some kind that has given them by Tatsunoko that involves some sort of rights. Takara still likely would have to honor that deal and make the conditions of it part of any deal they could make with BW.

[Noriko Takaya]

I don't recall any rumours of a shower scene, but they did jokingly record the audio of Minmei getting sucked out an airlock. At least, I assume it was a joke.

390674[/snapback]

Here is the .wav file you are talking about: http://www.opusgames.com/games/rcd/sounds/MinAirlock.wav

Sorry for being off topic, but I felt this necessary.

Edited August 2, 2006 by Noriko Takaya

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Holy... That is the funniest thing I've heard in ages. That stays on my HDD. Thanks Noriko.

[danth]

Continuing the converstation from the locked thread on a US DYRL release.

Plus and 2 got out on DVD before HG "realized" they had exclusive rights to the franchise.

DYRL's been off the market for a long time, and that gives HG a bit of leverage on a new window.

That doesn't make sense to me. Clash of the Bionoids was released way back in 91, true, but another version called Macross was released in 95. So it's just as recent as the original Macross Plus release. If Macross Plus can be released on DVD after a 95 VHS release, why not DRYL?

Macross TV's US release is actually licensed FROM HG, and the source video used was HG's copy(given the current situation, Big West probably wouldn't have been very accommodating).

Ah. This is another subject, but I'm curious: does that mean Animeigo remastered Harmony Gold's source video?

And as I said, not counting HG, there's several companies that think they own a piece of DYRL. So whoever releases is guaranteed legal hassle, even if HG ignores things. Plus and 2 have much "cleaner" licenses.

Again, if Clash was released in 91 and Macross in 95, wouldn't those same issues have applied to them? Are you talking about Japanese companies or US?

[JB0]

Continuing the converstation from the locked thread on a US DYRL release.

That doesn't make sense to me. Clash of the Bionoids was released way back in 91, true, but another version called Macross was released in 95. So it's just as recent as the original Macross Plus release. If Macross Plus can be released on DVD after a 95 VHS release, why not DRYL?

Plus was in pretty much constant release ever since, though. The VHS was still in print during the DVD release, and that factored into things.

As I understand things, HG tried to sue over the + DVDs and got slapped because of the current VHS run.

DYRL's been out of print for over a decade. If it comes back into print, HG will throw a hissy-fit. And with it out of print for so long, there's a bit more footing for them, though any competent lawyer should be able to point to the Super Space Fortress and Clash releases to make HG's alleged ownership of the franchise moot.

If you ignore it at one point, you lose the right to attack it again later.

But trademark issues could complicate things.

I'm not entirely clear on how trademark works, but HG has trademarked several titles, and I think Do You Remember Love is among them. So if nothing else, a new title would have to be generated.

Ah. This is another subject, but I'm curious: does that mean Animeigo remastered Harmony Gold's source video?

Bingo.

As I understand it, they had to give the remaster back to HG too. And HG proceeded to give it to ADV after the Animeigo license expired.

Again, if Clash was released in 91 and Macross in 95, wouldn't those same issues have applied to them? Are you talking about Japanese companies or US?

Both.

I was thinking mainly US companies, but there's a possibility that Tatsunoko may hold a stake in the international rights. And one company did a Japanese release of the English dub, so they might want a cut of things too.

Like I said, it's a big standoff. Everyone and Harmony Gold thinks they own it, and they're all waiting for someone to flinch so they can shoot.

[danth]

So, hypothetically, if that Macross VHS tape was still in production until, say, 2001, the same company could have relased it on DVD the next year, and HG couldn't have done much about it?

I wonder what the situation is with those other companies. I assume you mean Celebrity Home Entertainment and Best Film & Video Co. You'd think it'd be pretty cut and dry. Either they still hold the license, or it's expired. I don't see why there would be any confusion.

EDIT: Another question. Did Macross 7 Trash ever get released domestically?

Edited November 12, 2006 by danth

[JB0]

So, hypothetically, if that Macross VHS tape was still in production until, say, 2001, the same company could have relased it on DVD the next year, and HG couldn't have done much about it?

Pretty much, as that company would have an unchallenged right.

I wonder what the situation is with those other companies. I assume you mean Celebrity Home Entertainment and Best Film & Video Co. You'd think it'd be pretty cut and dry. Either they still hold the license, or it's expired. I don't see why there would be any confusion.

CHE filed for bankruptcy in 1991. They never came out of it, and no longer exist.

I can't find info for BF&V, but I think they're dead too.

This is part of the problem.

You also lack imagination.

There's a lot of lost contracts, verbal contracts, SEKRIT FILEZ!111*, and so forth.

And then there's mergers, sales, buyouts...

No one's sure who owns what anymore. Everyone's bought different parts of the dead companies, and multiple companies THINK they got the DYRL rights.

If I recall, the big issue is that 3 different companies think they bought CHE's license.

It's actually possible ALL the licenses expired years ago and no one knows it(or are at least pretending to not know).

*The main license in this thread has never been seen by anyone in recent history.

If I recall, the only people they've harassed that have ever actually seen it were FASA, and they were sworn to secrecy.

HG expects everyone to just trust them, because obviously they're the guardians of truth and justice in the world, and if you disagree with them you're an evil lying thief.

EDIT: Another question. Did Macross 7 Trash ever get released domestically?

No.

Short version:

Tokyopop got a license from Big West for it.

Tokyopop got a license from Harmony Gold for it, to avoid fighting with HG over royalties.

BW said "Waitwaitwait... these guys are crazy, they don't own this. You can't release this if you're gonna put a HG sticker on it." and pulled the license.**

Tokyopop ceased to have a manga to distribute, and canceled the release.

** At the time, BW was suing Tatsunoko over who owned the franchise. They REALLY didn't want Trash being released with a Tatsunoko licensee's label on it.

Especially since HG presents Macross as being copyright Tatsunoko. Having Macross products showing up with Tatsunoko copyrights would hurt their stance greatly.