Robotech and HG license debates

[ewilen]

You're right, the nose/cockpit has a different shape, the engine nozzles are different, and the vertical fins are canted out instead of in. Still, the layout is very similar.

It definitely comes from the original Mospeada--it's not a HG innovation. See these links:

http://homepage.powerup.com.au/~cyclone/ve...cles.htm#combat

http://www.artemisgames.com/robotech/Resea...cha/Combat.html

[bake_art]

If we're talking a brand new Robotech comic ad for the upcoming series Robotech: Invasion then it's not the VF-4/Whatever....it's the Combat non-transformable fighter as seen by Yellow Belmont in Mospeada.

Cyc

nope, I'm talking about this one

[bake_art]

I saw an ad for a robotech comic and was shocked to see it featuring a VF-4 on the cover. Is Harmony Gold allowed to do this? As far as I know they don't have the rights to Flashback 2012... What gives?

no. the vf4 was seen in the original macross sereis. hikaru playes with a model of it

Really? Which episode was it? I'm really curious now since I've checked Macross Compendium and it also states that the VF-4 only shows up in Flashback. Can anyone posts screencaps of the VF-4 in the TV series?

[ewilen]

Okay, that is a licensing issue. Please visit the the licensing debate thread where I've posted my answer, dated Dec 18 2003, 12:14 PM.

Edit: all we see of the VF-4 in the original TV series is Hikaru playing with a model of it. I believe it's in episode 36. There's a shot of him with the model over at RT.com here and here.

There's also a picture of a full-scale VF-4 (or the test version) in Macross Perfect Memory, in the story "The Lost Two Years".

Oh yeah, I think the lineart for the VF-4 is also in the mecha section of MPM.

Correction: as noted by azrael below, the plane shown in the series is the VF-X-4. Although there are many small differences, the giveaway is the lack of canards behind the cockpit on the test fighter. As you can see from the posted image, the plane in the RT comic is closer to the VF-X-4 than the VF-4. Another shot of the same comic book art is here.

Edited December 19, 2003 by ewilen

[azrael]

Okay just to clarify some points.

The VF-4 that appears in Macross is not the VF-4. It is the VF-X-4. HG is well within it's rights to use the VF-X-4. However, should they attempt to use the VF-4, then we are treading on unfriendly territory.

(Pics courtesy of MAHQ.net)

VF-X-4

VF-4

See? There's a difference.

[Graham]

OK, as there is also another topic talking about this below, I'm going to merge it with this pinned topic.

1....2......3.......Merge!

Graham

[CoryHolmes]

See? There's a difference.

Yes. The difference is the VF-X-4 is sleek and nice, whereupon the VF-4 is ugly as hell.

[Anubis]

Okay just to clarify some points.

The VF-4 that appears in Macross is not the VF-4. It is the VF-X-4. HG is well within it's rights to use the VF-X-4. However, should they attempt to use the VF-4, then we are treading on unfriendly territory.

(Pics courtesy of MAHQ.net)

VF-X-4

VF-4

See? There's a difference.

That's what I said: VF-X-4, I just kinda wrote VFX-4 by accident. The VF-X-4 did not transform, right? That's why it shares the vf-1's forward fuselage.

[akt_m]

just another pic from "robotrash" comics, ok i bought it, but just because it was the first time i saw something related with macross being commercialized here in large scale (i live in one big country from south america, so i can only rely on edonkey when i want to se something good) and its interesting that both macross and robotech were broadcasted here, i saw both!! and even a child can tell you that macross is better (i was a kid when i saw it, and i still remember that i liked more the japanese songs).

[Anubis]

just another pic from "robotrash" comics, ok i bought it, but just because it was the first time i saw something related with macross being commercialized here in large scale (i live in one big country from south america, so i can only rely on edonkey when i want to se something good) and its interesting that both macross and robotech were broadcasted here, i saw both!! and even a child can tell you that macross is better (i was a kid when i saw it, and i still remember that i liked more the japanese songs).

Seems like they are pushing the VF-X-4 it as far as they can go without using a full on VF-4.

[azrael]

That's what I said: VF-X-4, I just kinda wrote VFX-4 by accident. The VF-X-4 did not transform, right? That's why it shares the vf-1's forward fuselage.

The VF-X-4 does indeed transform. See page 66 of the Kawamori Macross Design Works. There is a concept drawing of the VF-X-4 in GERWALK.

[Anubis]

That's what I said: VF-X-4, I just kinda wrote VFX-4 by accident.  The VF-X-4 did not transform, right? That's why it shares the vf-1's forward fuselage.

The VF-X-4 does indeed transform. See page 66 of the Kawamori Macross Design Works. There is a concept drawing of the VF-X-4 in GERWALK.

I just looked at it now. An early design sketch with a gun or something on top. Doesn't look like the exact same plane as the VF-X-4 proto. You were right though that it was in fact variable.

I forgot how sweet the armored gerwalk was on the VF-4.

The compendium does say

VF-X-4: Trial-produced variable fighter built using 35% VF-1 Valkyrie parts, including the nose and forward fuselage section.

Since the VF-X-4 prototype was shown in fighter mode on Hikaru's shelf, that's fair game. If they want to transform the "YF-4" into a different looking battroid (could be done) then more power to them. I'm just saying the VF-4 battroid is off limits. I would even venture to say they wouldn't be able to copy the transformation sequence legally, as that is part of the mechanical design of the finished VF-4. At the time of SDF Macross the VF-X-4 was drawn up in fighter only, so that's all HG has to work with.

[JB0]

Or they could just claim there's a fundamental flaw with the "YF-4" design.

This flaw sends the designers back to square 1 to rethink teh plane. In the meantime other companies come up with next-gen vehicles that DO work properly.

Hence why the Alpha is used later instead of the VF-4.

And the fact that MOSPEADA has a VF-4 lookalike makes it even better, since they can retain it in the story. Claim the YF-4 was re-designed as a non-transformable fighter after the Alpha went into production.

...

Of course, the odds of them ACTUALLY doing this are pretty slim.

[CoryHolmes]

Of course, the odds of them ACTUALLY doing this are pretty slim.

What makes you say that?

[91WhiskeyM6]

See? There's a difference.

Yes. The difference is the VF-X-4 is sleek and nice, whereupon the VF-4 is ugly as hell.

Yeah, right!!!

The VF-4 looks bad-ass(skull insignias and cannards *COUGH*) compared to the VF-X-4. It will fly rings around that bootleg.

Row-blow-lowtek is copycat crap.

Edited December 19, 2003 by 91WhiskeyM6

[Radd]

See? There's a difference.

Yes. The difference is the VF-X-4 is sleek and nice, whereupon the VF-4 is ugly as hell.

I'm certain there's plenty of people who'd disagree with you, myself included. While I like both designs, the VF-4 is obviously more refined, and it has a sleeker profile.

Back to the topic at hand, from the common understanding of Tatsunoko's/HG's rights to SDF MAcross they are not able to make derivative creations. That includes the YF-1R and any possible battloid mode for the YF-4/VF-X-4.

I also still stand by my belief that this includes comics. novels, and videogames, but law is a funny thing. Ketchup is legally a vegetable in the United States. In fact, one packet of ketchup is legally considered and entire serving of vegetables.

Of course, HG could make a derivative of the non-transformable craft from MOSPEADA that looks all too similar to the VF-4/VF-X-4 design. They would have to go a different route than the VF-4's battroid design took. Let's not forget, either, that there has been two Kawamori designs for the VF-4 battroid (though only one is official) and then there was one from an old videogame that was not designed by Kawamori. HG might have to steer clear of all three designs, lest being too similar.

Of course, all of this soley depends on whether or not Big West sees enough profit in bringing the legal battle overseas. If Big West just ignores the international market and holes themselves up in Japan then Harmony Gold can do whatever they want.

[JB0]

Of course, the odds of them ACTUALLY doing this are pretty slim.

What makes you say that?

Because no one ever uses my ideas.

[azrael]

Let's not forget, either, that there has been two Kawamori designs for the VF-4 battroid (though only one is official) and then there was one from an old videogame that was not designed by Kawamori. HG might have to steer clear of all three designs, lest being too similar.

The designs for the VF-4 from those video games would still belong to BW (Macross name on game, yadda, yadda, yadda) whether Kawamori did them or not. But the simple answer is, unless HG comes up with their own transformation of the VF-X-4, they really can't use any design BW created. Also, IIRC, the designs for those games was for the VF-4, not the VF-X-4. And since they have no claim on the VF-4, it's not going to be a big problem.

[Nightbat]

In other words, (as with that VF-XYZR1 whatever)

after almost 20 years they're still ripping off other people's ideas and have no drop of creativity in any member of their staff

Just an observation

HG claims to have "World"-distributing rights, but frankly, Robotech merchandise is

harder to come by here in europe compared to Macross

guess they aren't "minding the shop" again huh?

[Cyclone]

Just an observation

HG claims to have "World"-distributing rights, but frankly, Robotech merchandise is

harder to come by here in europe compared to Macross

guess they aren't "minding the shop" again huh?

More a case of not seeing the demand in Europe.

Australia has both RT and Macross product about even in hardness to locate, RT formerly being in EB and now at comic/special toy retailers via Toynami's Australian distribution chain, where Macross is still at Chinatown anime stores via small scale importation

And both are insanely marked up and easily much cheaper bought online...

Cyc

Edited January 18, 2004 by Cyclone

[UN Spacy]

I happened to catch the INTERVIEW by Carl Macek in the EXTRA'S DVD of the Robotech: The Macross Saga (2nd Boxset Collection). Well. I guess this interview was sometime during the mid 80's, Carl mentioned that they'd be opening Robotech: The Movie in various parts of Dallas (20+ movie theaters). As I'm watching the interview I was expecting to see segments from either The Sentinels OR scenes from the TV show. Instead, I saw some clips that I've NEVER seen before.

I'm not sure if this was supposed to be from The Sentinels (b/c I don't know too much about HG and Robotech). Where did they get the source material for these mecha? Help!

[UN Spacy]

[UN Spacy]

[UN Spacy]

[UN Spacy]

[UN Spacy]

[UN Spacy]

Opps....sorry about that last one. Here's a good shot of the Cyclone-ish Head Unit.

[UN Spacy]

[1st Border Red Devil]

Those are from MegaZone 23 Part 1 (turned into Robotech the Movie).

[the white drew carey]

Those are from MegaZone 23 Part 1 (turned into Robotech the Movie).

IIRC- Wasn't there a bit of brand new animation made by Tatsunoko at HG's request in order to tie in the movie with the RT series?

Or am I thinking of something else?

[Effect]

There was a new ending done I believe.

[1st Border Red Devil]

IIRC- Wasn't there a bit of brand new animation made by Tatsunoko at HG's request in order to tie in the movie with the RT series?

Actually...it was done by Artmic, not Tatsunoko. However, I dont believe those were the scenes. It was added to the begining of MegaZone 23 Part 2 .

[Cyclone]

No idea where to really put this given the posts that dealt with Robotech Remastered have all faded from sight.

Quote from Madman Entertainment staff member Slykura about the upcoming Australian release of SDF: Macross:

Original post at animeondvd.com

Remastered version Animeigo had.. We licensed this one from Harmony Gold directly, not via AnimEigo. (In the end it still belongs to Harmony Gold, so you'll be seeing their logo on the box and slick covers)

HG appear to own the remastered AnimEigo footage after all...

Cyc

[Pat Payne]

Sadly, they do, and we knew that going in. HG was the source for the masters that Animeigo cleaned up.

[ewilen]

No, this is new news, at least to me. To recap, there was a thread in which we argued about who owned the remastered video done by Animeigo. Some people said that since HG had the US copyright to SDF Macross, they also had the right to use the remaster. I argued that ownership of and access to the remaster is distinct from copyright. I gave an example from the book publishing industry, in which an author and copyright holder does not own the printing plates used by the publisher of his book.

What this news says to me is that HG's contract with Animeigo very likely included a clause giving HG ownership of the remastered video, or at least the right to access it and copy it. Others may still argue that no such clause was necessary. I doubt we'll get a definitive answer to this (extremely niggling and now moot) question without input from a specialist in intellectual property law.

Edited February 4, 2004 by ewilen