Robotech and HG license debates

[the white drew carey]

Forgot to reply to this:

I'm just basing my comments off of what BW said in the open letter to Macross fans after the Feb02 ruling and then applying the same logic being used here against HG. That's all. Are you saying that the comments BW made in that letter are perhaps not entirely true, even misleading?

I'm not saying anything of the sort.

If you seem to find BigWest's letter misleading, then that's your problem.

The letter never asserts that Tatsunoko does not have the right to distribute the SDF: Macross TV show internationally.

The letter clearly states the facts: BigWest owns the design rights.

[wrylac]

Maybe I'm just tired, but I don't see what Wyrlac posted has anything to do with this letter. Please explain.

To Whom It May Concern

Big West Co., Ltd.

We brought a lawsuit against Tatsunoko Production to confirm our copyright ownership of TV anime "The Super Dimension Fortress-1 Macross" which has been broadcast in Japan since 1982.

Consequently, on February 25, 2002, the Tokyo District Court accepted our assertion and ruled that we are copyright owner of all character patterns attached hereto as lists No.1 to No. 41.

It is an inevitable ruling by the court that made a thorough examination on production process of "The Super Dimension Fortress-1 Macross."

We will take advantage of the copyright to develop more "Macross" products.

Kaya Ohnishi

President

Big West Co., Ltd.

Enclosure

Here's the thing.

WDC is saying that HG has made 'varying and inconsistent' remarks about their "ownership" of Macross. That the statements HG has made are at the very least 'calculated' to mislead the poor ignorant RT fans.

What I've hopefully have just done is exposed BW to have done the exact same thing to Macross fans. Their letter was too designed to placate Macross fans and 'implies' that they own SDF Macross. In fact this letter does have a flat out lie in it, BW never, "brought a lawsuit against Tatsunoko Production to confirm our copyright ownership of TV anime "The Super Dimension Fortress-1 Macross" which has been broadcast in Japan since 1982." Their lawsuit was about the designs not the show. My proof is the effect it had on the fan base and the ensuing rhetoric at the time. It might not have fooled you and me but it did most people.

Some here would say that that statement isn't misleading because BW has never challenged TP's int'l distributorship. Yet turn around and say that HG's statement about their "worldwide rights" is misleading, even though HG/TP have never challenged BW design copyright.

Don't get me wrong I'm not upset about any of it. It's just part of this whole game we're involved in.

Besides since when does the term "worldwide rights" mean anything in particular? Does it mean "ownership," "copyright," "distributorship?" It seems like HG is just 'making a general statement' about their int'l hold on Macross.

edit: wow, I really can't spell

Edited October 25, 2003 by wrylac

[muswp1]

Ok, maybe I am missing something here, but how are HG's varied claims and the action they tried to take (C&D letters) similar to that letter?? The letter states that they have sued Tatsunoko, what their claim is (that proved to be true), and that they hope to develop more Macross products. That doesn't sound like HG's rhetoric at all.

[Radd]

If I understand correclty, Wyrlac is saying that Big West did not sue Tatsunoko for the reasons claimed in the letter (that they sued explicitly for ownership of the designs, then Tatsunoko sued them for ownership of the series).

My only thoughts on the topic at the moment is that I seem to recall points where HG employees specifically stated they owned the designs, such as the U.N. Spacey Kite that they copyrighted as the RDF symbol or something. Feel free to take that with a grain of salt unless someone is willing to do the footwork to look up specific examples with proof. I have to run off to work.

[wrylac]

Ok, maybe I am missing something here, but how are HG's varied claims and the action they tried to take (C&D letters) similar to that letter?? The letter states that they have sued Tatsunoko, what their claim is (that proved to be true), and that they hope to develop more Macross products. That doesn't sound like HG's rhetoric at all.

The problem is that the letter itself is varying and inconsistent.

[the white drew carey]

The problem is that the letter itself is varying and inconsistent.

Wow, wrylkac. I'll admit it: you've really got me with the "varying and inconsistent" fiasco.

I'll agree with you that BigWest's statement that they took Tatsunoko to court affirm (BigWest's) copyright to SDF:Macross isn't correct, but the statement, as a whole, isn't inconsistent or varying.

This letter being, to my knowledge, the only offical statement from BigWest regarding this matter, it cannot, by it's singular nature, contradict anything else. There is nothing else to vary from or set a basis of consistency, you see.

So, what you're trying to tell us is that BigWest is lying.

But since HG never seems to lie*, I guess you've got us all stumped.

*Except for the plethora of facts and information that proves that HG has lied and distorted base facts into a PR campaign on a regular basis. But it's pointless to argue that point because you, in general, believe they're statements, while I, in general, don't.

But you know, at least we agree on something...

[wrylac]

I'll agree with you that BigWest's statement that they took Tatsunoko to court affirm (BigWest's) copyright to SDF:Macross isn't correct, but the statement, as a whole, isn't inconsistent or varying.

This letter being, to my knowledge, the only offical statement from BigWest regarding this matter, it cannot, by it's singular nature, contradict anything else. There is nothing else to vary from or set a basis of consistency, you see.

So, what you're trying to tell us is that BigWest is lying.

But since HG never seems to lie*, I guess you've got us all stumped.

*Except for the plethora of facts and information that proves that HG has lied and distorted base facts into a PR campaign on a regular basis. But it's pointless to argue that point because you, in general, believe they're statements, while I, in general, don't.

But you know, at least we agree on something... 

Smart ass.

Since the first and second paragraph basically contradict each other I'd say that it is inconsistent in and of itself.

All I'm saying is that both companies have tried to spin the facts and take advantage of the ignorant in order to make themselves look good.

Edited October 28, 2003 by wrylac

[Abombz!!]

If you look further the back jackets of the individual discs have a TP copyright and say that the discs are presented by MBS, TP and Anime Friend.  Looks to me like a legit release by TP done outside the jurisdiction they've given HG.

Hmmm.  Makes me wonder why BW never did anything about it since this release was done just before the ruling on the designs' copyright.  Maybe they knew they really didn't have a leg to stand on.

Ok... I might not be awake enough to be right.... but if TP themselves already confirmed that Studio Nue were the creators of the original story (look no further then the DVD case).... that means that without doubt BW owns the derivatives, right?

And does that mean it effectively killed any further discussion of who owns the story?

Edited October 28, 2003 by Abombz!!

[Effect]

That's what I was wondering myself. Since BW owns the designs and if TP knows they own the story as well then the derivatives pretty much belong to BW with HG having no way of claiming them or saying that they infring on their rights. Then that would also mean that all TP and HG own is the actual animation to SDF Macross which people thought anyway. At least from my reasoning of things but I can be wrong.

Wouldn't the copyright of a story be seperate from everything else though? How do authors copyright their stories, I mean where would one find that kind of information?

Edited October 28, 2003 by Effect

[Abombz!!]

That's what I was wondering myself. Since BW owns the designs and if TP knows they own the story as well then the derivatives pretty much belong to BW with HG having no way of claiming them or saying that they infring on their rights. Then that would also mean that all TP and HG own is the actual animation to SDF Macross which people thought anyway. At least from my reasoning of things but I can be wrong.

Wouldn't the copyright of a story be seperate from everything else though? How do authors copyright their stories, I mean where would one find that kind of information?

The way I see it..... Studio Nue owns the story. Meaning.... the copyrights are split into 3 parties not 2.

[wrylac]

That's what I was wondering myself. Since BW owns the designs and if TP knows they own the story as well then the derivatives pretty much belong to BW with HG having no way of claiming them or saying that they infring on their rights. Then that would also mean that all TP and HG own is the actual animation to SDF Macross which people thought anyway. At least from my reasoning of things but I can be wrong.

Wouldn't the copyright of a story be seperate from everything else though? How do authors copyright their stories, I mean where would one find that kind of information?

The way I see it..... Studio Nue owns the story. Meaning.... the copyrights are split into 3 parties not 2.

It may seem that way, but the court's decision certainly doesn't indicate any seperation of story from the copyright of the show.

Also, we have very little knowledge of how the story was changed (as happens in the development of every series or movie) in order to create the series. Much of the story was likely developed during the production. Given the differences between DYRL and SDF Macross it could be argued that Kawamori's vision of the original "rough story note of all 39 episodes" (as it is described by the court) differed from Noboru Ishiguro's final product.

[JB0]

If you look further the back jackets of the individual discs have a TP copyright and say that the discs are presented by MBS, TP and Anime Friend.� Looks to me like a legit release by TP done outside the jurisdiction they've given HG.

The DVD case, in link form

Hmmm.� Makes me wonder why BW never did anything about it since this release was done just before the ruling on the designs' copyright.� Maybe they knew they really didn't have a leg to stand on.

Ok... I might not be awake enough to be right.... but if TP themselves already confirmed that Studio Nue were the creators of the original story (look no further then the DVD case).... that means that without doubt BW owns the derivatives, right?

And does that mean it effectively killed any further discussion of who owns the story?

Of course not. Logic has no place in a debate such as this.

Good eye, though.

[the white drew carey]

It may seem that way, but the court's decision certainly doesn't indicate any seperation of story from the copyright of the show.

Also, we have very little knowledge of how the story was changed (as happens in the development of every series or movie) in order to create the series. Much of the story was likely developed during the production. Given the differences between DYRL and SDF Macross it could be argued that Kawamori's vision of the original "rough story note of all 39 episodes" (as it is described by the court) differed from Noboru Ishiguro's final product.

Personal opinion: I wouldn't read too much into the fact that Tatsunoko credited Studio Nue in such a way. It's probably not very Earth-shattering.

But, to make note of Wrylac's statement, I was of the understanding that the additional episodes added after the series was trimmed down were culled from Kawamori's material.

That's possibly why it specifically credits Studio Nue with the "Original Story."

Now, that being the case, I'm curious whether or not it means anything that it credits "Original Story", and not something along the lines of "Based on an Original Story".

But until we get Mr. Owl in here, the world may never know...

[JB0]

But until we get Mr. Owl in here, the world may never know...

"Mister Owl, how many licks DOES it take to get to the center of the HG/BW legal fiasco?"

"Mind your own damn business kid! Sheesh, do one damn candy ad and you're type-cast for life!"

[Pat Payne]

Also, we have very little knowledge of how the story was changed (as happens in the development of  every series or movie) in order to create the series.  Much of the story was likely developed during the production.  Given the differences between DYRL and SDF Macross it could be argued that Kawamori's vision of the original "rough story note of all 39 episodes" (as it is described by the court) differed from Noboru Ishiguro's final product.

Egan Loo put out an article in Animerica a few months back (I've got the issue, and I'll dig it out later on today for a cite -- I'm getting ready for work, so I can't dig around in my magazine collection just yet) which spells out in excruciating detail how the story was worked out. The gist of it was that IIRC, barring polishing and the last nine episodes, much of the story and plot itself was actually pretty much fully formed by the time Tatsunoko got into the picture (Tat, AWAK, was a last-minute entry after the original funder, Wiz, went under, and BW [who took over (don't you get the feeling I love parentheses? )] couldn't pull together enough funding by itself).

Loo actually answers that question about how we went from "Palace Robo Dockingham" ( ) to "Super Dreadnaught Megaroad" to "Super Dimension Fortress Macross."

Second, I wouldn't put much stock in the differences between SDF:M and DYRL meaning that the original show's concept changed in pre-production. That's kind of like saying that since "Patlabor" was a cop comedy, but Patlabor: WXIII was barely a "Patlabor" film at all, that Headgear must have radically changed the story before the first OAV was released. Sorry, that just seems too much like cart-before-the-horse thinking. The differences between SDF: M and DYRL probably have much more to do with the medium. Instead of 13 hours of television, Kawamori et. al had 2 1/2 hours of film, with a respectable budget. They had a few choices there. they could have gone the Yamato/Gundam route and spliced episodes of the TV series into a movie (and lose a lot in the translation). They could have gone the Star Trek route and done new adventures of Hikaru, Misa, et. al, but we all know the Hoary Froating Head's position on that... Instead, they did a retelling of the story with changes in the plot to allow for compression of a 13-hour show into 2 1/2 hours.

The differences between SDF: M and DYRL, therefore, signify nothing but the creator's desire to do something different with the story after the fact.

Edited October 29, 2003 by Pat Payne

[Druna Skass]

OK since this mess is mainly between TP and BW, where does Studio Nue go if/when the courts rule in vavor of either one?

[the white drew carey]

BigWest and Studio Nue together in this.

[Effect]

Also, we have very little knowledge of how the story was changed (as happens in the development of  every series or movie) in order to create the series.  Much of the story was likely developed during the production.  Given the differences between DYRL and SDF Macross it could be argued that Kawamori's vision of the original "rough story note of all 39 episodes" (as it is described by the court) differed from Noboru Ishiguro's final product.

Egan Loo put out an article in Animerica a few months back (I've got the issue, and I'll dig it out later on today for a cite -- I'm getting ready for work, so I can't dig around in my magazine collection just yet) which spells out in excruciating detail how the story was worked out. The gist of it was that IIRC, barring polishing and the last nine episodes, much of the story and plot itself was actually pretty much fully formed by the time Tatsunoko got into the picture (Tat, AWAK, was a last-minute entry after the original funder, Wiz, went under, and BW [who took over (don't you get the feeling I love parentheses? )] couldn't pull together enough funding by itself).

Loo actually answers that question about how we went from "Palace Robo Dockingham" ( ) to "Super Dreadnaught Megaroad" to "Super Dimension Fortress Macross."

Second, I wouldn't put much stock in the differences between SDF:M and DYRL meaning that the original show's concept changed in pre-production. That's kind of like saying that since "Patlabor" was a cop comedy, but Patlabor: WXIII was barely a "Patlabor" film at all, that Headgear must have radically changed the story before the first OAV was released. Sorry, that just seems too much like cart-before-the-horse thinking. The differences between SDF: M and DYRL probably have much more to do with the medium. Instead of 13 hours of television, Kawamori et. al had 2 1/2 hours of film, with a respectable budget. They had a few choices there. they could have gone the Yamato/Gundam route and spliced episodes of the TV series into a movie (and lose a lot in the translation). They could have gone the Star Trek route and done new adventures of Hikaru, Misa, et. al, but we all know the Hoary Froating Head's position on that... Instead, they did a retelling of the story with changes in the plot to allow for compression of a 13-hour show into 2 1/2 hours.

The differences between SDF: M and DYRL, therefore, signify nothing but the creator's desire to do something different with the story after the fact.

I'd really like to check out that article. Any chance you could scan it?

[Pat Payne]

The issue is Animerica v.11 iss. 1, January '03 "Macross and Beyond."

A closer reading of the article seems to intimate that yes, most of what became Macross was created before Tatsunoko came into the picture. The show, after all, had been germinating since 1979 with a long pre-production hell necessitated by the dissolution of the Wiz Corporation (the original, pre-Big West sponsor) as well as other commitments made by Studio Nue. Interesting enough, even the debut of Urusei Yatsura had an effect on the show's development. Although Loo gives no firm dates on specific points (I doubt even Kawamori himself could say "And here's where we decided to change the Zentradi from comic relief to serious adversary"), the way the article's set up strongly suggests that the substance of Macross (sans the last nine episodes -- something else was planned for the 54 or 48 ep. continuity) was developed before.

I'd love to scan the article, but there are a couple of things that prevent me:

1) the author is a visitor to the MW boards every so often, and I'm pretty sure that he (or Viz) wouldn't be amused by me infringing on copyrighted material to that extent. Since I use my own name as my screen name, that'd just make it easier for the lawyers to find me.

2) It'd take too long. I've only got two USB ports and a ****load of USB-needing devices.

[Lightning]

so as of right now we have

*Big West owns design linearts

*Studio Nue owns storyline

*TP owns.....i'm guessing international distributorship of it?

[JB0]

2) It'd take too long. I've only got two USB ports and a ****load of USB-needing devices.

Has anyone recommended buying a hub or 2 yet?

[Pat Payne]

Another interesting thing I just came upon in the article (it's been a while since I read it): There is a sidebar about the legal bollocks between HG and BW. Apparently, as said before, Tatsunoko was brought in late to the game, circa April 1982. Two months before, Studio Nue asked Artland (Mikimoto's studio) to join the production by (Loo's words) "assist[ing] in the conceptual work and animation in 1982." It wasn't until Oct. 1, 1982, that the memorandum was signed that gave int'l distro rights to Tatsunoko in lieu of dramatically increased monetary payments -- two days before the show's premiere. So it seems that the heavy lifting work of the story's creation by SN, BW and Artland was pretty much finished by the time that Tatsunoko entered the arena, and long before the memo that pushed Tatsunoko over the edge into a key production role on Macross.

[Apollo Leader]

If I have the chance this evening, I'll try to get it posted.

[Druna Skass]

Another interesting thing I just came upon in the article (it's been a while since I read it): There is a sidebar about the legal bollocks between HG and BW. Apparently, as said before, Tatsunoko was brought in late to the game, circa April 1982. Two months before, Studio Nue asked Artland (Mikimoto's studio) to join the production by (Loo's words) "assist[ing] in the conceptual work and animation in 1982." It wasn't until Oct. 1, 1982, that the memorandum was signed that gave int'l distro rights to Tatsunoko in lieu of dramatically increased monetary payments -- two days before the show's premiere. So it seems that the heavy lifting work of the story's creation by SN, BW and Artland was pretty much finished by the time that Tatsunoko entered the arena, and long before the memo that pushed Tatsunoko over the edge into a key production role on Macross.

So basicaly all TP did was put in some money?

[Apollo Leader]

Here it is (from the January 2003 issue of Animerica)!

Edited October 30, 2003 by Apollo Leader

[azrael]

so as of right now we have

*Big West owns design linearts

*Studio Nue owns storyline

*TP owns.....i'm guessing international distributorship of it?

Actually I would say:

-Big West owns design linearts and story.

Studio Nue is included in Big West.

[Pat Payne]

To a certain extent, I think you're right. The thing is, though, one may trump the other. That is something of an interesting question that Macross 2 brings out: Does BW or SN have a bigger stake in the rights vested int he both of them -- in other words, could Studio Nue say "Screw it, we're doing the next Macross show with Sunrise" just as BW cut out Studio Nue on Macross 2?

[azrael]

To a certain extent, I think you're right. The thing is, though, one may trump the other. That is something of an interesting question that Macross 2 brings out: Does BW or SN have a bigger stake in the rights vested int he both of them -- in other words, could Studio Nue say "Screw it, we're doing the next Macross show with Sunrise" just as BW cut out Studio Nue on Macross 2?

No. I don't think so. Any Macross project can come out of BW. However, Studio Nue would have to go through BW if they continued Macross. To me Studio Nue is just a bunch of guys pitching a story or pushing out ideas. They don't really "exist" as a production company, IMO. Besides design (story and design lineart), they probably only go as far as planning. They rely on companies like Big West to back them financially and with animation studios. If Studio Nue wanted to use Sunrise, Studio Nue would have to buy the entire Macross franchise from BW. That would be kinda weird/stupid. It would have to be like Bandai/Sunrise working another Gundam series. Any UC work not involving Tomino would have to be fudged in some way that it wouldn't screw with the Tomino-UC timeline. That's how I see things. Big West owns the Macross franchise, period. If it has the "Macross" name on it, Big West will be involved. The established Macross timeline that we all work with would be that of Studio Nue. So if Big West decides to create a new Macross series without Studio Nue, they sure as hell can. But since it might impact the Studio Nue continuity, it would have to go the way of an alternate universe. Get the idea?

[pfunk]

1) the author is a visitor to the MW boards every so often, and I'm pretty sure that he (or Viz) wouldn't be amused by me infringing on copyrighted material to that extent. Since I use my own name as my screen name, that'd just make it easier for the lawyers to find me.

You wouldnt have to worry, as long as you include the copyright and give credit to the author and publisher, as for your not making money on it and strictly ussing it for informational purposes.

Anywho,

Everything is up in the air untill the appeals and court cases are settled. Since all of this is in court, dont plan on seeing a resolve for a while, and for that matter products released as part of macross in the US without a HG logo on them.

The rights are basically noones right now untill resolved in court. all that is known is the facts that Studio Nue owns the copyrights to the 1st series and may not even own the film, as that is still pending

[wrylac]

1) the author is a visitor to the MW boards every so often, and I'm pretty sure that he (or Viz) wouldn't be amused by me infringing on copyrighted material to that extent.  Since I use my own name as my screen name, that'd just make it easier for the lawyers to find me.

You wouldnt have to worry, as long as you include the copyright and give credit to the author and publisher, as for your not making money on it and strictly ussing it for informational purposes.

Anywho,

Everything is up in the air untill the appeals and court cases are settled. Since all of this is in court, dont plan on seeing a resolve for a while, and for that matter products released as part of macross in the US without a HG logo on them.

The rights are basically noones right now untill resolved in court. all that is known is the facts that Studio Nue owns the copyrights to the 1st series and may not even own the film, as that is still pending

What appeals cases are you talking about? There can't be any unless the Japanese Supreme Court takes up the case (highly unlikely).

TP was granted copyright to the 36 "animation movies" excluding only the "Moral right." What does the copyright include besides "Moral right?" "Economic Rights" and some "Neighboring Rights." What rights does "Economic Rights" include? The "Exclusive Right" to "create" and "exploit" "Derivative Works." Now, the court did not exclude the "Exclusive Right" to "create" and "exploit" "Derivative Works" in it's ruling like it did exclude the "Moral Right."

and

BW "filed this lawsuit to claim copyright ownership to the drawings" used in SDF Macross. They were given copyright to those drawings only. So far, outside the memorandum, it has been established BW owns nothing that is called "SDF Macross."

[pfunk]

On that yellow peice of paper, said the decision was upheld on appeal and the lawsuit wasnt settled yet, unless Im reading it wrong

[wrylac]

On that yellow peice of paper, said the decision was upheld on appeal and the lawsuit wasnt settled yet, unless Im reading it wrong

That article was written before the Jan 03 ruling and before the Tokyo High Court upheld that ruling a few weeks ago.

[pfunk]

well damn it, dont post old stuff

[Yamato Lover]

So far, outside the memorandum, it has been established BW owns nothing that is called "SDF Macross."

So doesn't that bring this whole thing back to square one? If I am to interpret your last statement at face value, you are essentially saying that BW simply doesn't own anything related to Macross...with the exclusion of the line art, right? And that could technically include any derivative based on the series (like FB 2012)?

[the white drew carey]

So doesn't that bring this whole thing back to square one? If I am to interpret your last statement at face value, you are essentially saying that BW simply doesn't own anything related to Macross...with the exclusion of the line art, right? And that could technically include any derivative based on the series (like FB 2012)?

As of yet, no challenge or ruling has been made regarding any derivative Macross project.