JB0 Posted October 20, 2003 Posted October 20, 2003 Without having to scroll through pages and pages of this thread, I would like to know if Manga Entertainment had to get permission from HG to release Macross II and Macross Plus? I would think so, right? Anyone kind enough to answer that for me?Sorry if this seems like a stupid question. No. Mac+ and Mac2 were released without HG. According to HG, they weren't even aware of the release untill recently(recently being "when we started claiming exclusive rights to all things Macross"). BTW, Mac2 was originally released by a diffrent company. It only became a Manga release when Manga bought them out. Wow!!! How did this slip past HG's seemingly-smelling-anything Macross-related noses?! They didn't care, because Macross wasn't huge at the time. They missed DYRL too. Which was during the original airing of Robotech, if I recall.
the white drew carey Posted October 20, 2003 Posted October 20, 2003 (edited) Wow!!! How did this slip past HG's seemingly-smelling-anything Macross-related noses?! At a Robotech Panel in 2002 (what convention was it again?), Tommy Yune stated that Macross Plus was released without HG's knowledge. He explained how Haim Saban had "stolen" most of HG's employees and due to the subsequent understaffing, M+ slipped in under HG's nose. And by the time they found out it was released, the statute of limitations had already expired. This doesn't explain two things: 1) How DYRL and Macross II were licensed and released well beforehand without a peep from HG. 2) How HG still managed to license and develop RT at the time despite being so horribly understaffed. These being mainly RT comics and the abandoned N64 game, Robotech: Crystal Dreams. In no way has HG or any of their representatives attempted to answer question #1. Others have defended HG on #2 by providing explanations such as: A- Just because a company is licensing a product doesn't mean they know what's happening in that product's market, or... B- (this one gets me) neither Macross II or Macross Plus were very big releases*. *this particular person then went on to ask me if either had been advertised in the major entertainment publications or had posters up all over the place. I explained that while MacII or Mac+ were definitely NOT big releases in the American entertainment industry, they WERE, in fact, very big releases in America's ANIME industry. Edited October 20, 2003 by the white drew carey
the white drew carey Posted October 20, 2003 Posted October 20, 2003 Oops, forgot to finish up... Anyhoo, what I meant to end that bit of rambling with was my opinion that Tommy Yune stated that explanation at the RT Panel simply to reassure RT fans that RT was not going to be taken away from them.
Effect Posted October 20, 2003 Posted October 20, 2003 I believe that was said at the Anime Expo 2002 Panel. Anyway you are right , while the releases of Mac II and Plus weren't big in entertainment in general it seems it was big during the anime industry. A industry that HG would be apart of since they did release anime outside of Japan. I still would like to see them answer about the release of Do You Remember Love?. Along with the release of the Macross II RPG(they didn't have any hand in that right?). How could they not know about Macross Plus when it was release. Wasn't that said to be one of the most exspensive, if not "the" most exspensive OVA made at the time? How could they know about that if import of animated shows is one of the things they do, understaffed or not(did they even try get more staff during those times?) or did they just let things sit.
JB0 Posted October 20, 2003 Posted October 20, 2003 Along with the release of the Macross II RPG(they didn't have any hand in that right?). Not only did they not have a hand in it, there's also a page devoted to explaining the diffrences betweeen Macross/DYRL, Macross 2, and Robotech. they make it very clear that the product's unrelated to Robotech in any way.
Effect Posted October 20, 2003 Posted October 20, 2003 So I guess what I'm really asking is should the HG even get a second chance in the eyes of the law cause they themselves didn't pay attention to the very market they were in? Aren't business responsible for that type of thing no matter how understaffed they are? After all they knew how to gather the information. They knew out about Macross and the other series to bring them over. They themselves were attempting to make two more RT series over the years. Sents and 3000. Anyone know what the dates for those are? Even if they didn't make it out of preproduction, the fact that they were working on them would mean they were active in the market wouldn't it?
JB0 Posted October 20, 2003 Posted October 20, 2003 So I guess what I'm really asking is should the HG even get a second chance in the eyes of the law cause they themselves didn't pay attention to the very market they were in? Aren't business responsible for that type of thing no matter how understaffed they are? After all they knew how to gather the information. They knew out about Macross and the other series to bring them over. They themselves were attempting to make two more RT series over the years. Sents and 3000. Anyone know what the dates for those are? Even if they didn't make it out of preproduction, the fact that they were working on them would mean they were active in the market wouldn't it? Sentinels made it into production. Barely. They animated something like 4 episodes before the deal crashed.
pfunk Posted October 20, 2003 Posted October 20, 2003 Along with the release of the Macross II RPG(they didn't have any hand in that right?). Not only did they not have a hand in it, there's also a page devoted to explaining the diffrences betweeen Macross/DYRL, Macross 2, and Robotech. they make it very clear that the product's unrelated to Robotech in any way. Cheese and Rice, Why dont they call it something diferent than Macross,,,,,like Ssorcam, You know what Im saying
Shaggydog Posted October 20, 2003 Posted October 20, 2003 Hey, I'll bet HG is gonna lose their rights in a US court any day now, right guys?
j_wong00 Posted October 20, 2003 Posted October 20, 2003 Hey, I'll bet HG is gonna lose their rights in a US court any day now, right guys? I think that's what a lot of us wants. But what we want, and what will happen are always 2 different things.
CAG Posted October 20, 2003 Posted October 20, 2003 Shaggydog Posted on Oct 20 2003, 09:15 AM-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey, I'll bet HG is gonna lose their rights in a US court any day now, right guys? I don't think so. As I understand it, what will happen in the courts is that someone will prove who owns the rights, info which has not been made public. Whether BW or HG wins, no actual transference of rights will occur, just a clarification. Am I right?
JB0 Posted October 21, 2003 Posted October 21, 2003 Whether BW or HG wins, no actual transference of rights will occur, just a clarification. Am I right? Basically, yes. As I understand it, despite fan sentiment, there is no question whatsoever that HG has the rights to the original Macross TV series. And that's the only part that could be viewed as transference of rights. All that's in question is whether they have the rights to everything else(they claim they do, everyone else says nuh-uh, they sick lawyers on people, people respond with hostility, Big West sues Tatsunoko to start the process of clearing things up before some idiot fanboy starts a nuclear war over it).
the white drew carey Posted October 21, 2003 Posted October 21, 2003 All that's in question is whether they have the rights to everything else(they claim they do, everyone else says nuh-uh, they sick lawyers on people, people respond with hostility, Big West sues Tatsunoko to start the process of clearing things up before some idiot fanboy starts a nuclear war over it). Specifically on this point: ...they claim they do, everyone else says nuh-uh, they sick lawyers on people, people respond with hostility... Also remember that a lawyer was retained when HG went after the retailers and when that Lawyer requested proof from HG to their claims, they refused to provide it. This is another point that leads many of us to think HG is lying. As has been speculated before, many think HG was just attempting to clear the market for the release of the MPC.
ewilen Posted October 21, 2003 Posted October 21, 2003 Also remember that a lawyer was retained when HG went after the retailers and when that Lawyer requested proof from HG to their claims, they refused to provide it.This is another point that leads many of us to think HG is lying. As has been speculated before, many think HG was just attempting to clear the market for the release of the MPC. If this is so, and it eventually turns out that they don't have a legitimate claim, could they be sued for tortuous interference (or similar unfair/illegal interference in the business of others)?
JB0 Posted October 21, 2003 Posted October 21, 2003 All that's in question is whether they have the rights to everything else(they claim they do, everyone else says nuh-uh, they sick lawyers on people, people respond with hostility, Big West sues Tatsunoko to start the process of clearing things up before some idiot fanboy starts a nuclear war over it). Specifically on this point: ...they claim they do, everyone else says nuh-uh, they sick lawyers on people, people respond with hostility... Also remember that a lawyer was retained when HG went after the retailers and when that Lawyer requested proof from HG to their claims, they refused to provide it. This is another point that leads many of us to think HG is lying. As has been speculated before, many think HG was just attempting to clear the market for the release of the MPC. Apologies. I oversimplified the issue, and in doing so possibly misrepresented the situation.
Effect Posted October 21, 2003 Posted October 21, 2003 (edited) You know how HG says they were understaffed during the time Macross Plus and Macross II were released. Since they didn't have enough people to watch the market to see their release wouldn't them releasing products during that time period pretty much go against that statement. Macross II in 1993 US Rendition, and in 1995 by Manga I believe. Macross Plus in 1995 - 1996 and in 1997 for the movie version. Thing is Harmony Gold was releasing items at the same time. Heidi in 1993 Cobra in 1993-1994 Casshan: Robot Hunter in 1994 Gatchaman in 1994 Harmony Gold Theatre was renovated in 1995 American Strays in 1996 Not to mention the release of the Robotech comics during that period. How understaffed coudl they be if they released these shows, there were two more I think, during these times. Two of which are in the anime industry, same as Macross II. Then there is the one released in 1996, same time Macross was released. Not sure if someone has brought this up before. Sorry if they did. Edited October 21, 2003 by Effect
wrylac Posted October 21, 2003 Posted October 21, 2003 The way I see it, all this discussion about what happened to in the past is moot. For several reasons. (1) HG never challenged those releases. To jump to the conclusion that they didn't challenge those releases because they 'must have known they didn't have those rights,' is severely speculative. (2) Even if HG/TP completely ignored those releases does not mean HG has given up all subsequent rights to future releases. (3) The most recent ruling on the show's copyright happened only a few weeks ago. We've yet to see the full consequence of that ruling. (4) The current situation is that HG is able to block int'l releases of Macross related merchandise that they've seen fit to block. BW has never challenged HG ability to block such releases.
the white drew carey Posted October 21, 2003 Posted October 21, 2003 Apologies. I oversimplified the issue, and in doing so possibly misrepresented the situation. No worries, just clarifying. The way I see it, all this discussion about what happened to in the past is moot. For several reasons. (1) HG never challenged those releases. To jump to the conclusion that they didn't challenge those releases because they 'must have known they didn't have those rights,' is severely speculative. (2) Even if HG/TP completely ignored those releases does not mean HG has given up all subsequent rights to future releases. (3) The most recent ruling on the show's copyright happened only a few weeks ago. We've yet to see the full consequence of that ruling. (4) The current situation is that HG is able to block int'l releases of Macross related merchandise that they've seen fit to block. BW has never challenged HG ability to block such releases. I don't think it's moot. Questions have been asked about how DYRL, MacII and Mac+ were released outside of Japan without HG's consent. (1) HG never challenged those releases. To jump to the conclusion that they didn't challenge those releases because they 'must have known they didn't have those rights,' is severely speculative. To simply believe Tommy Yune/HG's version of events, in the face of proven facts (see Effect's post above) is extremely credulous, not to mention in no way "severely" speculative. (2) Even if HG/TP completely ignored those releases does not mean HG has given up all subsequent rights to future releases. Once again, publicly available facts give credibility to speculation that HG, in fact, has never owned those rights. If HG was a dormant company during the time of their supposed "understaffing", that would be one thing. But the record shows (see Effect's post above) that HG was not only releasing products, but they were releasing products into the very Anime market that, supposedly, they were too understaffed to pay attention to at the time. (3) The most recent ruling on the show's copyright happened only a few weeks ago. We've yet to see the full consequence of that ruling. True. (4) The current situation is that HG is able to block int'l releases of Macross related merchandise that they've seen fit to block. BW has never challenged HG ability to block such releases. HG has been successful in blocking Int'l releases of Macross-related merchandise, but only if you look at it a certain way. In 2000 Toycom announced it would be releasing toys based on Macross Plus. At this time, HG announces, for the first time ever, that they own everything Macross. As of yet, no company who has licensed a Macross product has actually taken HG to court to challenge this. And for good reason, because the mothership (BigWest) was busy preparing to take, and then challenging, Tatsunoko to court to determine the status of Macross ownership. True, Bandai tried to release VF-X2, but HG said they would block it. So Bandai after some effort backed down to see what would happen in the Japanese courts. So yes, that was a success. Then HG also attempts to block Macross toys imported from Japan. A retailer whom they had threatened with a Cease and Desist letter fires back with a lawyer. When that lawyer asks HG to prove their claims, they refuse to do so. Not a success. This act also works to cast doubts on HG's claims. In layperson's terms, they tried to start a fight, and then chickened out when someone accepted the thrown gauntlet. This also can lead to speculation that HG was saying things that, essentially, aren't true.
Yamato Lover Posted October 21, 2003 Posted October 21, 2003 (edited) The way I see it, all this discussion about what happened to in the past is moot. For several reasons. (1) HG never challenged those releases. To jump to the conclusion that they didn't challenge those releases because they 'must have known they didn't have those rights,' is severely speculative. (2) Even if HG/TP completely ignored those releases does not mean HG has given up all subsequent rights to future releases. (3) The most recent ruling on the show's copyright happened only a few weeks ago. We've yet to see the full consequence of that ruling. (4) The current situation is that HG is able to block int'l releases of Macross related merchandise that they've seen fit to block. BW has never challenged HG ability to block such releases. So in essence, what you are saying is that HG or TP could legally seek the cessation of the remainder of Macross Zero or any future Macross projects planned by BW, if BW seeks an international distributor for the Macross license, right? If so, then here's the cold, hard reality of the situation that BW has backed itself into: * Anywhere else in the world, with the exception of Japan, HG/TP owns Macross...and could technically challenge any internationally released "derivative" of Macross. * Outside of Japan, Robotech's "The Macross Saga" (Rick Hunter, Lisa Hayes, etc.) is to be considered the "real" version of Macross, since HG holds the international copyright (and therefore creative rights) to the TV series. * The original "Master" reels of SDF Macross could be used as nothing more than an office doorstop for HG's CEO...and there's nothing BW, nor anyone else can say nor do about it. These are the facts, people...whether we like them or not. The corporate machine is an evil one in most cases, and one company "protecting its rights" while screwing another company over in the process is just cut-throat business tactics...(survival of the fittest and all that rot). That's just how things are, unfortunately. Big businesses forge and severe ties because of crap like the BW/HG/TP-Who-Really-Owns-Macross mess all the time. This is nothing new in the corporate world. But strictly speaking from a merchandising viewpoint, the reality of this whole situation is that it really doesn't stop any of us from obtaining toys, models, DVDs or anything else connected to the original version (the "illegal" BW Japanese version for all you RT fanboys ) of Macross. C&D letters to internet retailers haven't slowed the import of Yamatos or Bandai reissues...in fact, it seemed to cause the opposite effect, rallying those retailers to become more defiant in what they can and can't carry in their stocks...all because HG couldn't back up their claims to "All-Things-Macross". The fact that Suncoast or Blockbuster doesn't carry Macross Zero hasn't stopped anyone from getting their own copies of Macross Zero, DYRL or any of the other Macross series. Edited October 21, 2003 by Yamato Lover
JB0 Posted October 21, 2003 Posted October 21, 2003 (4) The current situation is that HG is able to block int'l releases of Macross related merchandise that they've seen fit to block. Well, yes. But that has no bearing on legal rights whatsoever. See Sony VS Bleem!, where the larger, more powerful corporation(Sony) forced the smaller one(Bleem!) into bankruptcy by firing off spurious lawsuit after spurious lawsuit. The fact that Bleem! won each and every case was meaningless, since they still had to pay their lawyers, who were suddenly working overtime. Such behavior has become very common place in the US legal system, which is set up in such a way that it's very abuse-prone. Unlke Bleem!, most companies will back down rather than get dragged into a long, messy legal battle against someone with superior assets, which has been the case with most of the HG threats. Bandai was a notable exception, in that they DID have the assets to fight HG, but didn't really care to.
the white drew carey Posted October 21, 2003 Posted October 21, 2003 Unlke Bleem!, most companies will back down rather than get dragged into a long, messy legal battle against someone with superior assets, which has been the case with most of the HG threats. Bandai was a notable exception, in that they DID have the assets to fight HG, but didn't really care to. It kind of makes you wonder why HG, whom one would suspect has assets superior to Blasto-Toys at the very least, backed down so quickly when Blasto's lawyer demanded proof of their ownership.
bsu legato Posted October 21, 2003 Posted October 21, 2003 If so, then here's the cold, hard reality of the situation that BW has backed itself into: I remember another poster, who long ago vowed to give us all a "Cold Hard Dose of Reality." I sense something. A presence I've not felt since....
Jemstone Posted October 21, 2003 Posted October 21, 2003 If so, then here's the cold, hard reality of the situation that BW has backed itself into: I remember another poster, who long ago vowed to give us all a "Cold Hard Dose of Reality." I sense something. A presence I've not felt since.... Tell me about it. I mean really.....
wrylac Posted October 21, 2003 Posted October 21, 2003 (edited) (1) HG never challenged those releases. To jump to the conclusion that they didn't challenge those releases because they 'must have known they didn't have those rights,' is severely speculative. To simply believe Tommy Yune/HG's version of events, in the face of proven facts (see Effect's post above) is extremely credulous, not to mention in no way "severely" speculative. I'm not arguing Tommy's remarks. I've said before that Tommy's remarks were probably an over simplification, and true only in a broad sense. And still its a large assumption on your part. (2) Even if HG/TP completely ignored those releases does not mean HG has given up all subsequent rights to future releases. Once again, publicly available facts give credibility to speculation that HG, in fact, has never owned those rights. If HG was a dormant company during the time of their supposed "understaffing", that would be one thing. But the record shows (see Effect's post above) that HG was not only releasing products, but they were releasing products into the very Anime market that, supposedly, they were too understaffed to pay attention to at the time. I'm going to have to cite you for being completely obtuse. You don't address my point and again saddle me with an argument I've never made. What I stated is simply a fact cwbrown has brought out a couple of times. (3) The most recent ruling on the show's copyright happened only a few weeks ago. We've yet to see the full consequence of that ruling. True. You redeem yourself. (4) The current situation is that HG is able to block int'l releases of Macross related merchandise that they've seen fit to block. BW has never challenged HG ability to block such releases. HG has been successful in blocking Int'l releases of Macross-related merchandise, but only if you look at it a certain way. In 2000 Toycom announced it would be releasing toys based on Macross Plus. At this time, HG announces, for the first time ever, that they own everything Macross. As of yet, no company who has licensed a Macross product has actually taken HG to court to challenge this. And for good reason, because the mothership (BigWest) was busy preparing to take, and then challenging, Tatsunoko to court to determine the status of Macross ownership. True, Bandai tried to release VF-X2, but HG said they would block it. So Bandai after some effort backed down to see what would happen in the Japanese courts. So yes, that was a success. Then HG also attempts to block Macross toys imported from Japan. A retailer whom they had threatened with a Cease and Desist letter fires back with a lawyer. When that lawyer asks HG to prove their claims, they refuse to do so. Not a success. This act also works to cast doubts on HG's claims. In layperson's terms, they tried to start a fight, and then chickened out when someone accepted the thrown gauntlet. This also can lead to speculation that HG was saying things that, essentially, aren't true. In layperson's terms, they tried to start a fight, and then chickened out when someone accepted the thrown gauntlet. You mean sort of like Sunwards. I think your being somewhat biased here. You don't fault BW/Bandai for not challenging HG/TP because there is current litigation which will affect the out come of such a challenge. And then you turn around and claim that HG doesn't challenge these small "retailers" (are they really retailers of Macross merchandise if they're not buy these products at retail prices?) becuse they'd have no case, even though there's on going litigation that would affect the outcome of the challenge. Remember, the merchandise we're talking about is from the derivative shows not SDF Macross. Also, for HG to present it's case to each and every little store would be costly and time consuming. Opening the door to one would mean opening the door to all the rest and that's simply not reasonable, for either side. Edited October 21, 2003 by wrylac
wrylac Posted October 21, 2003 Posted October 21, 2003 If so, then here's the cold, hard reality of the situation that BW has backed itself into: I remember another poster, who long ago vowed to give us all a "Cold Hard Dose of Reality." I sense something. A presence I've not felt since.... If it's BoK, the mods should delete this Yamato Lover account.
Jemstone Posted October 21, 2003 Posted October 21, 2003 If it's BoK, the mods should delete this Yamato Lover account. If it is him, why should he be banned when you are not? It's not like this guy has done any flaming. As of now anyways.
wrylac Posted October 21, 2003 Posted October 21, 2003 If it's BoK, the mods should delete this Yamato Lover account. If it is him, why should he be banned when you are not? It's not like this guy has done any flaming. As of now anyways. The Yamato Lover account. There's no reason people should have two accounts.
Agent ONE Posted October 21, 2003 Posted October 21, 2003 If it's BoK, the mods should delete this Yamato Lover account. If it is him, why should he be banned when you are not? It's not like this guy has done any flaming. As of now anyways. Yeah, I thought the two of you were buddies.
wrylac Posted October 21, 2003 Posted October 21, 2003 If it's BoK, the mods should delete this Yamato Lover account. If it is him, why should he be banned when you are not? It's not like this guy has done any flaming. As of now anyways. Yeah, I thought the two of you were buddies. Does no one read what I actually write?
Agent ONE Posted October 21, 2003 Posted October 21, 2003 If it's BoK, the mods should delete this Yamato Lover account. If it is him, why should he be banned when you are not? It's not like this guy has done any flaming. As of now anyways. Yeah, I thought the two of you were buddies. Does no one read what I actually write? Actually to tell you the truth... no. I really don't, I skip all of your posts. I don't care much to discuss the legal issues. I like Macross just the way it is, and fortunately because of bad blood, bad business practice, and bad management it won't be changin for a long time... I thought you and bok were buddies a long time ago because you were both pissing everyone else off in the same way, however bok was less tactfull than you. The two of you stand on MW because the both of you are both obviously adults, but you are still clinging on to a hack job 80's show that was full of mistakes, and dumbed down for a kiddie US audience.
bsu legato Posted October 21, 2003 Posted October 21, 2003 If it's BoK, the mods should delete this Yamato Lover account. I made no mention of Bankofkev. I was simply poking fun at Yamato Lover's unfortunate choice of words. In his defense, he likely had no idea he was referencing BoK.
wrylac Posted October 21, 2003 Posted October 21, 2003 If it's BoK, the mods should delete this Yamato Lover account. If it is him, why should he be banned when you are not? It's not like this guy has done any flaming. As of now anyways. Yeah, I thought the two of you were buddies. Does no one read what I actually write? Actually to tell you the truth... no. I really don't, I skip all of your posts. I don't care much to discuss the legal issues. I like Macross just the way it is, and fortunately because of bad blood, bad business practice, and bad management it won't be changin for a long time... I thought you and bok were buddies a long time ago because you were both pissing everyone else off in the same way, however bok was less tactfull than you. The two of you stand on MW because the both of you are both obviously adults, but you are still clinging on to a hack job 80's show that was full of mistakes, and dumbed down for a kiddie US audience. Then you've missed that my only objection to Macross at all is in this legal sense. I enjoy Macross on its own; I own the Animeigo 9-disc set, as well as the derivatives, DYRL? is the best anime movie ever as far as I'm concerned. I would love to have Macross related merchandise readily available. I also enjoy the multi-generational struggle in RT, however my appreciation really developed with the novels. I believe that Macross and RT can co-exist on the int'l market as much as they do in my own heart. But, I can also separate a business' legal maneuvering from my emotional attachment to the shows.
Hoptimus Posted October 21, 2003 Posted October 21, 2003 Ahh and the debate goes on. This crap is so old now. Lame.
the white drew carey Posted October 21, 2003 Posted October 21, 2003 (edited) something's not right here... Edited October 21, 2003 by the white drew carey
JB0 Posted October 21, 2003 Posted October 21, 2003 If it's BoK, the mods should delete this Yamato Lover account. If it is him, why should he be banned when you are not? It's not like this guy has done any flaming. As of now anyways. The Yamato Lover account. There's no reason people should have two accounts. Awww.... multiple accounts are FUN. I've got the name God registered on one board for occasional use, mainly for the sake of humor.
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