Robotech and HG license debates

[wrylac]

As far as I'm concerned TP now has the ability to seek damages from BW.

Is that because the series were called Macross, aside from that and a few story line elements like references to Space War I, I don't see how that is so.

This is making me think of the dilema that the Xenosaga creators had since they're working for a diffrent company now then when they made Xenogears. They can't make direct references to Gears but have slight hints like names or character designs. The Zohar is still in it and two three characters bear a VERY strong resebelance to three Gears characters.

Yes, it's because BW has used the Macross name as a means to market these products.

[Pat Payne]

All I'm saying is that the proof is in the pudding.

...BTW- What the heck doesn that mean, anyway?!? 

It's a misquote. The actual saying is "The proof of the pudding is in the tasting." In other words, something's worth can only be told through actual experience.

I'd always heard it as: "The Proof of the Pudding's in the Crust."

Anyhoo, I doubt that TP is going to seek damages now, unless they try to push the issue. The case ain't over, as all the rulings talk about right now is the TV series itself, which is -- all together now -- BW/SN gets designs and author's rights, TP gets rights to footage and international distro of same. Nobody's gone into who has what right to make what derivative. And everyone who says otherwise right now on this thread is really going out on a limb.

[wrylac]

All I'm saying is that the proof is in the pudding.

...BTW- What the heck doesn that mean, anyway?!? 

It's a misquote. The actual saying is "The proof of the pudding is in the tasting." In other words, something's worth can only be told through actual experience.

I'd always heard it as: "The Proof of the Pudding's in the Crust."

Anyhoo, I doubt that TP is going to seek damages now, unless they try to push the issue. The case ain't over, as all the rulings talk about right now is the TV series itself, which is -- all together now -- BW/SN gets designs and author's rights, TP gets rights to footage and international distro of same. Nobody's gone into who has what right to make what derivative. And everyone who says otherwise right now on this thread is really going out on a limb.

Pat BW doesn't have the "author's right." They have only a portion of "author's right", the "moral right." The "moral right" doesn't give them any "economic rights." And, TP has more than just the footage, they have the copyright to SDF Macross as a whole.

You can check the link I provide in my sig for the definition of "moral" and "economic" rights.

Edited October 8, 2003 by wrylac

[Druna Skass]

As far as I'm concerned TP now has the ability to seek damages from BW.

Is that because the series were called Macross, aside from that and a few story line elements like references to Space War I, I don't see how that is so.

This is making me think of the dilema that the Xenosaga creators had since they're working for a diffrent company now then when they made Xenogears. They can't make direct references to Gears but have slight hints like names or character designs. The Zohar is still in it and two three characters bear a VERY strong resebelance to three Gears characters.

Yes, it's because BW has used the Macross name as a means to market these products.

But doesn't that go back to what you were saying about TP/hg not doing anything with Macross since there was a small market? I mean if BW was making decent money why would TP just sit there and let it happen?

So if BW had called Macross Plus, 7, and II, say something like Air Cavalry Chronicles, TP couldn't do a single thing?

Edited October 8, 2003 by Druna Skass

[ewilen]

Found something interesting over at the RT site. They list the VF-X-4 in their database (they also call it the YF-4) but they don't show the battroid mode or even give any data for it. Instead, it's "classified". Check it out here.

The VF-4's battroid mode never appears in SDF Macross, but if HG believes they have rights to everything Macross, what's stopping them from using the VF-4 battroid mode as shown in other drawings/models/toys?

Between this and the various Macross II, Macross Plus, and Macross 7 stuff that's been released in the U.S. and internationally, it appears that HG knows they (a) can't stop non-SDF Macross derivatives by other companies and (b) don't have any rights to those derivatives themselves.

Edited October 9, 2003 by ewilen

[Duke Togo]

So, once again, we get to watch this thread go around and around in circles until either the Techies are banned or some big breakthrough happens.

[Effect]

I know know if this means anything but when they had the news article on Macross 7 Trash on RT.com, instead of the Macross 7 logo since Trash is directly related to that, they used the SDF Macross one instead. Also seemed by doing that as if they were trying to promote Macross 7 Trash as a sequel to SDF Macross instead of Macross 7 like it should be. We were talking about this in RT.com chat as well one night.

[the white drew carey]

So, once again, we get to watch this thread go around and around in circles until either the Techies are banned or some big breakthrough happens.

You spin me right 'round, Macross.

Right 'round, like a record, Macross.

Right 'round. Round, round.

[wrylac]

Found something interesting over at the RT site. They list the VF-X-4 in their database (they also call it the YF-4) but they don't show the battroid mode or even give any data for it. Instead, it's "classified". Check it out here.

The VF-4's battroid mode never appears in SDF Macross, but if HG believes they have rights to everything Macross, what's stopping them from using the VF-4 battroid mode as shown in other drawings/models/toys?

Between this and the various Macross II, Macross Plus, and Macross 7 stuff that's been released in the U.S. and internationally, it appears that HG knows they (a) can't stop non-SDF Macross derivatives by other companies and (B) don't have any rights to those derivatives themselves.

It's a common misconception that when HG says they have rights to everything Macross, it means that they can have a wholesale access to anything BW/SN has created in regards to Macross. That simply is not true. BW still must be cooperative and grant permission (ie. get paid) for TP/HG to use what they (BW) have created. TP/HG simply holds the position that they have the exclusive right to exploit those creations in the int'l market. BW and TP must work together in order for us to see all of Macross released int'ly.

edit to clarify "they"

Edited October 10, 2003 by wrylac

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

That makes no sense to me wrylac.And iit sounds more like your conterdicting yourself, to me.

[Druna Skass]

Found something interesting over at the RT site. They list the VF-X-4 in their database (they also call it the YF-4) but they don't show the battroid mode or even give any data for it. Instead, it's "classified". Check it out here.

The VF-4's battroid mode never appears in SDF Macross, but if HG believes they have rights to everything Macross, what's stopping them from using the VF-4 battroid mode as shown in other drawings/models/toys?

Between this and the various Macross II, Macross Plus, and Macross 7 stuff that's been released in the U.S. and internationally, it appears that HG knows they (a) can't stop non-SDF Macross derivatives by other companies and (B) don't have any rights to those derivatives themselves.

It's a common misconception that when HG says they have rights to everything Macross, it means that they can have a wholesale access to anything BW/SN has created in regards to Macross. That simply is not true. BW still must be cooperative and grant permission (ie. get paid) for TP/HG to use what they've created. TP/HG simply holds the position that they have the exclusive right to exploit those creations in the int'l market. BW and TP must work together in order for us to see all of Macross released int'ly.

Eh?

OK if TP has the rights to exploit the TV designs on the international market, why do they need to work with BW to release it internationaly?

[wrylac]

That makes no sense to me wrylac.And iit sounds more like your conterdicting yourself, to me.

Let's take the M7 Trash situation as an example.

The way I understand it, TokyoPop licensed M7 Trash from BW. TokyoPop, knowing that if they tried to release M7 Trash without involving HG they'd get a lawsuit coming their way. So, they work things out with HG and all is fine and dandy. Except that BW doesn't feel that HG should be involved in any way. BW shuts down the release. HG can't force BW to give up that merchandise. Remember for all those products BW still has the "Moral right," which grants them the ability to determine when those products get released to the public. In Japan BW can just go ahead and release any Macross related product they want, but as HG contends, BW gave up the right to release Macross products int'ly, they must go through HG.

Here's another example, if you or I were to create some Macross related art, it doesn't mean that HG can automatically exploit that art. HG first has to get your permission before they could use that art for their purposes. However, if you were to try and exploit that art, you would be infringing on HG's rights.

There you go, in order for HG to get a hold of the products BW has created/licensed BW must be willing to work with them.

Edited October 10, 2003 by wrylac

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

That still makes little to no sense to me Wrylac. If TP/HG ow the right to the derivitives like you beleave. Then they should be able to use VF-4's battroid mode. But they don't. Which leads me to beleave your wrong and counterdicted yourself.

And on a side note you have to expalin slowly to me. I'm slow at picking these things up. Just ask Ai.

[Druna Skass]

That makes no sense to me wrylac.And iit sounds more like your conterdicting yourself, to me.

Let's take the M7 Trash situation as an example.

The way I understand it, TokyoPop licensed M7 Trash from BW. TokyoPop, knowing that if they tried to release M7 Trash without involving HG they'd get a lawsuit coming their way. So, they work things out with HG and all is fine and dandy. Except that BW doesn't feel that HG should be involved in any way. BW shuts down the release. HG can't force BW to give up that merchandise. Remember for all those products BW still has the "Moral right," which grants them the ability to determine when those products get released to the public. In Japan BW can just go ahead and release any Macross related product they want, but as HG contends, BW gave up the right to release Macross products int'ly, they must go through HG.

Here's another example, if you or I were to create some Macross related art, it doesn't mean that HG can automatically exploit that art. HG first has to get your permission before they could use that art for their purposes. However, if you were to try and exploit that art, you would be infringing on HG's rights.

There you go, in order for HG to get a hold of the products BW has created/licensed BW must be willing to work with them.

OK I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, it's just that this dosesn't make sence to me...

OK so BW can't release anything internationaly, but they can say what and when something get's out?

[wrylac]

OK so BW can't release anything internationaly, but they can say what and when something get's out?

exactly

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

OK so BW can't release anything internationaly, but they can say what and when something get's out?

exactly

From what you'v been saying here and trying to prove, Wrylac. It sounds like you counterdicting yourself to me.

[the white drew carey]

Remember that Wrylac's example of BigWest being the ones to shut-down the M7 Trash release is speculation.

As of yet we've received no explanation, definitive or vague, about why it has been delayed and/or cancelled.

[ewilen]

OK so BW can't release anything internationaly, but they can say what and when something get's out?

exactly

But they have no say over Robotech toys based directly (MPC) or indirectly (YF-1R) on SDF Macross designs? Just to be clear...

[ewilen]

Remember that Wrylac's example of BigWest being the ones to shut-down the M7 Trash release is speculation.

As of yet we've received no explanation, definitive or vague, about why it has been delayed and/or cancelled.

Is there any explanation for why M7 Trash was released in Italy, France, and Germany?

[wrylac]

OK so BW can't release anything internationaly, but they can say what and when something get's out?

exactly

But they have no say over Robotech toys based directly (MPC) or indirectly (YF-1R) on SDF Macross designs? Just to be clear...

The Feb02 ruling confirmed that TP could develop their own merchandise for overseas distribution. I think I'll have to repost that translation since the old boards are down for now.

Edited October 10, 2003 by wrylac

[wrylac]

Since the old boards are down:

February 25, 2002, Tokyo District Court Case number Heisei 13 (Wa) 1844 Copyright civil suit

Argued November 6, 2001.

Plaintiffs:Studio Nue, Inc. and Bigwest, Inc.

Defendant:Tatsunoko Production, Inc.

Opinion

1.Plaintiffs own the copyright to the drawings.

2.Two-thirds of the legal costs are allocated to the Defendant and the remainder to Plaintiffs.

3.Defendant is prohibited from creating movies using the drawings and from allowing third parties from creating the same.

Plaintiffs filed this lawsuit to claim copyright ownership to the drawings.* [*These drawings include Exhibit 1, an illustration of a fighter machine that transforms to and from an aircraft, a robot, and a form in between; and Exhibit 41, an illustration of the characters.]

There is a pending lawsuit between Plaintiffs and Defendant (case number Heisei 13 (Wa) 6447) which involves the copyright ownership of a television series which is based on a movie.

Facts uncontested

(1)Plaintiff Studio Nue is engaged in the business of planning and creating animations. Plaintiff Bigwest is engaged in the business of advertisement. Defendant is engaged in the business of planning and creating movies and motion pictures.

(2)From October 3, 1982 until June 26, 1983, the television series of the animation ““Macross”” consisting of 36 episodes was broadcast by Mainichi Network. Plaintiffs and Defendant were involved in creating and broadcasting of the TV series in varying degrees.

(3)The story of the TV animation takes place during a fierce space war between the allied force and the 10-meter (30-foot) gigantic aliens (““Zentoradi”” force). ““Macross”” is the colossal flagship of the allied force; it is 1200 meters (3600 feet) in length and capable of accommodating over 50,000 inhabitants. The fighter spacecrafts in this animation have the distinctive character of transforming into robots. The main casts of the story include ““Hikaru Ichijo,”” a civilian who joins the allied force, ““Lin MinMei,”” a music pop-star of Macross, and ““Misa Hayase,”” an official of Macross.

Plaintiffs’’ claims

Studio Nue’’s representative M, together with employees K and W, planned the creation of an animated work that involved civilians living in a massive spaceship and a space war against gigantic aliens (the ““Project””). K’’s friend S joined this Project to produce illustrations of the characters and to develop their personalities.

Around February 1981, Studio Nue introduced the Project to Bigwest. Plaintiffs agreed to the following. First, Bigwest would secure a sponsor and obtain agreements with a TV broadcasting company. Second, Studio Nue would produce the animation. Third, Studio Nue would transfer partial copyright ownership to Bigwest, allowing parties to become joint owners of the copyright. And finally, Bigwest would be indicated as the copyright owner.

K created the illustrations of the transforming fighter spacecraft (““Varukilii””) during the initial stages of the Project. W also created mechanical designs. S designed the characters and developed details of their personalities. S’’s work was modified after receiving comments from M, K, and W.

When the Project began, S was working for another company called ““Artland.”” Plaintiffs originally sought to contract out all of the animation work to Artland, but because there were not enough animators at Artland, decided to contract out some of the work to Defendant. Defendant then sub-contracted the work to its affiliated company, ““Animefriend.””

The animation work is based on the original works and drawings created by K, W, and S (““K et al””). The animators of Studio Nue, Artland and Animefriend were under the instruction of Studio Nue to develop the animation work.

K et al has not received compensation for their work or designs from Defendant. They have not engaged in Defendant’’s business.

Studio Nue has not received compensation from Defendant for transferring copyright of the drawings. It has not proposed or expressed its interest to transfer its copyright ownership to Defendant.

Defendant and Animefriend were involved only to the extent of producing animation work after Plaintiffs completed the details of the storyline and the drawings.

Defendant’’s claims

Defendant is a well-known animation motion picture company which has produced many popular animation movies. Plaintiffs do not have the experience or staff to produce animation movie pictures.

The drawings were developed by K et al under the instructions of Defendant’’s producer, and after Defendant initiated the creation of the TV animation series. The prior drawings by K et al. were nothing more than rough sketches which have little resemblance to the drawings at issue in this case. The same is said for the personalities of the characters and the details of the story. When Plaintiffs proposed the TV animation project, the characters and the storyline were not fully developed.

The TV animation series was broadcast under Defendant’’s name. Thus the drawings belong to Defendant corporation.

Even if Defendant and K et al did not have an employment relationship, K et al engaged in Defendant’’s business and were compensated for their work. The application of Article 15** of the Copyright Law is not precluded in this case. [**Article 15 pertains to work for hire. Authorship of a work by an employee in the course of his duties is attributed to the employer unless otherwise agreed by the parties.]

Court’’s findings regarding payment for production and profit sharing

Bigwest was expected to pay Mainichi Network a monthly fee of 48,000,000 Yen for the broadcast. Mainichi had contracted with Defendant to pay 5,500,000 Yen per episode for the production of the animation. Before the animation was aired on TV, Defendant notified Bigwest that the production cost exceeded estimates and that the Bigwest’’s payments to Mainichi Network were not sufficient. In order to make up for the deficiency, Plaintiffs agreed to transfer the following to Defendant: part of the profits from the sale of merchandise; the right to sell the program overseas; and the right to develop merchandise. This agreement was made on October 1, 1982.

As a result of this agreement, three different entities were responsible for enforcing various rights. Bigwest was in charge of the right to merchandise the characters and the right to re-broadcast the work domestically. Defendant was in charge of the right to publications designed for children up to grade 6, the right to the music, the right to sell the program overseas, and the general right to develop merchandise. Studio Nue was in charge of the right to publications designed for children over grade 7. For each right, Plaintiffs and Defendant decided upon the allocation of profits. (Mainichi Network also received a portion of profits from domestic merchandise. Defendant received all profits from rights pertaining to merchandise overseas.)

Other findings

Drawings were created by K et al under the idea of Studio Nue. Since the drawings were created while K et al were engaged in Studio Nue’’s business, Studio Nue acquired the copyright to the drawings.

Bigwest acquired copyright ownership from Studio Nue in the process of producing the TV animation work. Studio Nue and Bigwest have joint ownership of the copyright.

Defendant’’s claims that K et al received compensation from Defendant and that they were under the command of Defendant are rejected. Likewise, Defendant’’s claims that Studio Nue received compensation for the copyright of the drawings, and that Studio Nue explicitly or implicitly revealed its intentions to transfer its copyright are rejected.

[91WhiskeyM6]

How many people in here hate Harmony Gold with a passion?

[Ladic]

[Lightning]

How many people in here hate Harmony Gold with a passion?

i think it numbers in the hundreds here.....

[Druna Skass]

How many people in here hate Harmony Gold with a passion?

I think about everyone with the exception of like 5 people...

[kensei]

When you look at what HG have done with Macross and to Macross, who can blame the people that hate them? I for one sometimes cannot resist a stab at HG but it must be within good reason. (which is pretty much all the time ). It is after all MACROSSWORLD. But you got to admire HG for doing what they do, and for how long they've been able to do it, in a world where the dollar bill is king. Do you think that HG would give a stuff about Macross if it had no potential of making money?

[91WhiskeyM6]

When you look at what HG have done with Macross and to Macross, who can blame the people that hate them? I for one sometimes cannot resist a stab at HG but it must be within good reason. (which is pretty much all the time  ). It is after all MACROSSWORLD. But you got to admire HG for doing what they do, and for how long they've been able to do it, in a world where the dollar bill is king. Do you think that HG would give a stuff about Macross if it had no potential of making money?

But you got to admire HG for doing what they do, and for how long they've been able to do it, in a world where the dollar bill is king. Do you think that HG would give a stuff about Macross if it had no potential of making money?

Admire? for what? the RB II: Sentinels fiasco? Voltron CG/ Mechwarriors wannabe Robotech 3000 dud? for cashing in on the 80's craze? I admire those folks across the Pacific for continuing to feed their fans new products and new shows for almost 20 + years now. HG's also been sued many times from different factions besides BW. What does that tell you about HG? Freaking shady company if you ask me!

Another thing, I down want BW and HG collaborating on anything Macross. Picture's of Soccer moms influencing my Valkyries comes to mind. Can you say Hasbro?

Edited October 13, 2003 by 91WhiskeyM6

[Agent ONE]

...

Admire? for what? the RB II: Sentinels fiasco? Voltron CG/ Mechwarriors wannabe Robotech 3000 dud? for cashing in on the 80's craze? I admire those folks across the Pacific for continuing to feed their fans new products and new shows for almost 20 + years now. HG's also been sued many times from different factions besides BW. What does that tell you about HG? Freaking shady company if you ask me!

Another thing, I down want BW and HG collaborating on anything Macross. Picture's of Soccer moms influencing my Valkyries comes to mind. Can you say Hasbro?

Hey 91WhiskeyM6, your passion for Macross is admirable, however one should taylor arguments in a way where they aren't inflamatory, just factual... Therefore taken seriously.

[tom64ss]

I was thinking about the fact that Toynami is releasing the VF-1R toy and it makes me think that if HG had been smart from the onset, Macross and Robotech could've easily survived as seperate entities and both been profitable.

Think about Macross 2. It in itself uses the SDF Macross timeline as it's chapter 1 and yet remains a seperate existance from the whole Macross universe. Although no one plans on expanding the Macross 2 timeline, it still gets a lot of support from all us Macross fans. If someone came out with a nice VF-2SS toy in any scale, we'd buy it up in a heartbeat.

Had HG cooperated and helped with BW in introducing Macross into this country, they could've worked out an agreement with BW for the rights to the Macross 2 designs which I don't think BW would've really cared too much about losing since the closest thing I've seen to any new toy was the Ishtar figure in the Macross figure set and the model reissue. With some clever editting, they could've easily been worked right into Robotech as a part of it's timeline, by going through a seperate from Macross timeline of the VF development, starting with stuff they "kind of" came up with on their own, like the VF-1R, and using Macross 2, SC, and Mospeada designs

Macross, complete and unedited would've been sold in this country as well as all of it's derivatives and toys. All Macross fans would be happy with HG because we could now purchase these toys and DVDs cheaper and more readily.

To HG's benefit, they would've now had the support of BW in helping them expand the SC and Mospeada licences as well as most of the "Macross only" fans. I, personally, would've gladly supported both BW's Macross and HG's Robotech just because I know there'd be really cool SC and Mospeada toys around the bend.

They own the SC and Mospeada rights outright. Nobody disputes that because nobody seems to want them. But they had to be greedy and get the rights to something that obviously has grown as an int'l franchise without any help from HG for many, many years. Plus, if they had played their cards right, possibly could've gotten the Mac 2 rights too. That's 3 really cool license for them to build on, plus sharing the SDF Macross stuff int'l as seperate franchises.

If they used the money they spent on lawyers to try and develop those licences into a "new" show and get a good time slot on Cartoon Network, considering the obviously mecha craving world of toy buyers and anime/cartoon watchers, Robotech could've easily become a franchise to contend with Transformers instead of the pathetically overlooked retro fad that your Joe Average U.S. consumer sees it as now when they see one of those crappy toys in Gamestop.

Ahhhh what the heck am I saying? Idealism is for hippies.

[kensei]

When you look at what HG have done with Macross and to Macross, who can blame the people that hate them? I for one sometimes cannot resist a stab at HG but it must be within good reason. (which is pretty much all the time  ). It is after all MACROSSWORLD. But you got to admire HG for doing what they do, and for how long they've been able to do it, in a world where the dollar bill is king. Do you think that HG would give a stuff about Macross if it had no potential of making money?

But you got to admire HG for doing what they do, and for how long they've been able to do it, in a world where the dollar bill is king. Do you think that HG would give a stuff about Macross if it had no potential of making money?

Admire? for what? the RB II: Sentinels fiasco? Voltron CG/ Mechwarriors wannabe Robotech 3000 dud? for cashing in on the 80's craze? I admire those folks across the Pacific for continuing to feed their fans new products and new shows for almost 20 + years now. HG's also been sued many times from different factions besides BW. What does that tell you about HG? Freaking shady company if you ask me!

Another thing, I down want BW and HG collaborating on anything Macross. Picture's of Soccer moms influencing my Valkyries comes to mind. Can you say Hasbro?

Chill out Sunshine, I'm not saying that what HG is doing is right, as a matter of fact it's plain wrong. Hard to express why I admire them, I pretty much meant that they just want money and are able to use the law to be able to suit their wants and purposes to get it. It seems like they've been able to do it for a long time as well!

Voltron, Robotech 3000 and RB: II the Sentinels were absolute crap, if not downright embarassing for HG. I know they stopped 3000, but whoever thought about it in the first place (haha) is an absolute loser. I have never seen a more stupid concept for a Robotech movie in my life!

It's a real bitch how they are able to block Macross sale overseas though. IMO HG should just drop the issue and let BW through and do what ever they want. It's time for HG to create something of their own and go off on their own little path (like that will happen )

BTW if HG has been sued many times by different factions as you have said, wouldn't they have been dead broke by now? What's keeping HG afloat?

Edited October 14, 2003 by kensei

[91WhiskeyM6]

So, when do we go over to Robotech.com and beat them up *cracks knuckles* I hate those damn socias!!

Man, it's hot in here eh? I need a 1/48 Yammy fix

"BTW if HG has been sued many times by different factions as you have said, wouldn't they have been dead broke by now? What's keeping HG afloat? "

I'm no damn lawyer, but the fact they were sued by different companies say's something.

Edited October 14, 2003 by 91WhiskeyM6

[kensei]

As much as I'd like to get my shinken and chop em all up and give Carl Macek a kickbox to the head, I don't think that would be a good idea.

Hopefully in the future, BW will be able to do anything they want with Macross and HG will go their own little way (and good luck to them) and create something that will please their own Robotech fans and leave us Macross followers alone. Personally, I don't want any more hate going between both factions, it affects us badly in they way that we can't get toys and other mechandise locally outside Japan at a good price (which is really the only reason I'm pissed off with them at the moment).

[Roy Focker]

Hey Whiskey,

Why don't you take a look at that message I left on that close topic you started on Robotech 3000 and think over it for a bit before you post again.

[91WhiskeyM6]

As much as I'd like to get my shinken and chop em all up and give Carl Macek a kickbox to the head, I don't think that would be a good idea.

Hopefully in the future, BW will be able to do anything they want with Macross and HG will go their own little way (and good luck to them) and create something that will please their own Robotech fans and leave us Macross followers alone. Personally, I don't want any more hate going between both factions, it affects us badly in they way that we can't get toys and other mechandise locally outside Japan at a good price (which is really the only reason I'm pissed off with them at the moment).

I'll buy you 5 Bulky Lees if you do drop-kick his ass

I'm serious!

[91WhiskeyM6]

Hey Whiskey,

Why don't you take a look at that message I left on that close topic you started on Robotech 3000 and think over it for a bit before you post again.