Robotech and HG license debates

[Robelwell202]

How can people criticize the Shadow Chronicles?

Get your heads examined please.

Quite easaily, in fact.

One, when the powers that be at Harmony Gold make it out that the Robotech franchise is better than ever,when the truth is staring them in the face, it gives all sorts of licence to us 'loyal fans' to question thier thinking.

Second, when HG continues under the above-mentioned premise, and releases 'The Shadow Chronicles' under the slightly false pretenses (claiming years of production and hard work went into it, when there are vastly superior examples of real, dedicated work out there in AnimeLand), it gives us pause to consider the rather baffling mindset of HG, yet again.

I don't have a problem with shadow chronicles, itself. Not everyone can make a film of the calibur of 'Appleseed: Ex Machina', so I simply downgrade it's quality. Where I have a problem is the enormous amounts of confusion that HG seems to have heaped on us... (I'm trying to be nice, here...)

[Gubaba]

Quite easaily, in fact.

One, when the powers that be at Harmony Gold make it out that the Robotech franchise is better than ever,when the truth is staring them in the face, it gives all sorts of licence to us 'loyal fans' to question thier thinking.

Second, when HG continues under the above-mentioned premise, and releases 'The Shadow Chronicles' under the slightly false pretenses (claiming years of production and hard work went into it, when there are vastly superior examples of real, dedicated work out there in AnimeLand), it gives us pause to consider the rather baffling mindset of HG, yet again.

I don't have a problem with shadow chronicles, itself. Not everyone can make a film of the calibur of 'Appleseed: Ex Machina', so I simply downgrade it's quality. Where I have a problem is the enormous amounts of confusion that HG seems to have heaped on us... (I'm trying to be nice, here...)

Psst...Roy's being sarcastic...it's been a little game of his for a week or two now.

[Robelwell202]

Psst...Roy's being sarcastic...it's been a little game of his for a week or two now.

Dammit! Why wasn't I notified?!?

Sorry, Roy... didn't know.

[Freiflug88]

I'm gonna agree with Gubaba. If there is any question of what HG can or cannot do, it's probably gonna have to come from whatever the live-action movie will pull out. And well, if there is any interest that will come, a reboot of the franchise is probably in order. Probably with people who can think of a better story to tie everything together.

Indeed, the live-action movie is HG best hope considering that not only are LAMs more mainstream in America, but WB is putting the movie together with there own money and creative direction to boot. This is great because even with the LAM designs still up in the air, the actual live-action adaption of the characters and atmosphere that drew fans to the original anime and Robotech is a creative issue not a legal one.

[Einherjar]

Indeed, the live-action movie is HG best hope considering that not only are LAMs more mainstream in America, but WB is putting the movie together with there own money and creative direction to boot. This is great because even with the LAM designs still up in the air, the actual live-action adaption of the characters and atmosphere that drew fans to the original anime and Robotech is a creative issue not a legal one.

There's still the chance that it could end up like Dragon Ball Evolution in terms of quality and fan reaction. I wonder what priority does the Robotech LAM project have in WB's eyes right now?

[Gubaba]

There's still the chance that it could end up like Dragon Ball Evolution in terms of quality and fan reaction. I wonder what priority does the Robotech LAM project have in WB's eyes right now?

Speed Racer was considered a failure. Dragonball will probably end up being even more so. Anime-themed movies may die the death...although HG might be able to convince WB execs that Robotech isn't really anime.

[VF5SS]

although HG might be able to convince WB execs that Robotech isn't really anime.

This is probably one of the funnier things the fans attempt argue about Robotech. Granted, they're probably the ones who genuinely like all that generic sci-fi crap added in the expanded universe.

[Gubaba]

This is probably one of the funnier things the fans attempt argue about Robotech. Granted, they're probably the ones who genuinely like all that generic sci-fi crap added in the expanded universe.

Don't you know the math?

Anime + English = Anime

(Anime X 3) + English = Anime

(Anime X 3) + English + Floral Power Source = Not Anime

[Freiflug88]

There's still the chance that it could end up like Dragon Ball Evolution in terms of quality and fan reaction. I wonder what priority does the Robotech LAM project have in WB's eyes right now?

Speed Racer was considered a failure. Dragonball will probably end up being even more so. Anime-themed movies may die the death...although HG might be able to convince WB execs that Robotech isn't really anime.

Considering that Tobey Mcquire spend wads of his own money obtaining the rights to film Robotech from HG I am sure he going to see to it that WB puts alot of effort into the movie. Just look how much fanboy Zach Synder fought for a faithful adaption on Watchmen. Seriously all Tobey has to do is say "I spent a fortune getting the rights to this deal and Harmoy Gold does not give refunds so I want to see as much effort that was put in Dark Knight and Watchmen put into this."

What is anime, comics, or cartoons means little to Network Executives. To them they all:

1. Have an established fanbase

2. Are a great source for inspiration aka ripping off of established

3. Have visual appeal, in Robotech's case Itano circuses, space battles, transforming F-14s, etc.

Edited April 12, 2009 by Freiflug88

[taksraven]

Speed Racer was considered a failure. Dragonball will probably end up being even more so. Anime-themed movies may die the death...although HG might be able to convince WB execs that Robotech isn't really anime.

Just to be annoying, Speed Racer was not a "considered" failure, it was a definite/absolute failure. No Hollywood spin could put a happy face on the fact that the film cost 120million and made less than 100 million. I think that Watchmen will be more of a "considered" failure, costing 120 million and making just over 172 million. But we live in a world where movies like The Dark Knight can make over a billion dollars, so its fair to say that a production would have to at least double its production costs in profit to be considered a success now.

I agree about the anime-themed movies dying a death though. Look at the Evangelion live-action film, thats been on the cards for years now and still no real progress (nor is there likely to be). And that is a potential production that would be facing few (probably no) legal actions.

I think that the possibility of a RT film opening a real can of worms legally means that its not likely to be made. Add to that the enormous cost of such a production as well as the potential risk, as well as the current stagnant nature of the franchise, I will go on the record and say that a RT live action film will NEVER be made.

[jenius]

Did HG ride the Transformers momentum to get their deal signed? If so, a big showing for Transformers 2 might help them keep it on life support.

[Gubaba]

Just to be annoying, Speed Racer was not a "considered" failure, it was a definite/absolute failure. No Hollywood spin could put a happy face on the fact that the film cost 120million and made less than 100 million. I think that Watchmen will be more of a "considered" failure, costing 120 million and making just over 172 million. But we live in a world where movies like The Dark Knight can make over a billion dollars, so its fair to say that a production would have to at least double its production costs in profit to be considered a success now.

True. I was trying to be cautious, since I didn't have the numbers in front of me. It didn't know if Speed Racer eked out a small profit, or if it ended up in the red.

Did HG ride the Transformers momentum to get their deal signed? If so, a big showing for Transformers 2 might help them keep it on life support.

But Transformers momentum has not worked for any other movie. I believe that Hollywood execs aren't saying, "Let's make more movies like that!"; they're saying "Let's make more movies with Michael Bay and Shia LeBouf!"

[Freiflug88]

Did HG ride the Transformers momentum to get their deal signed? If so, a big showing for Transformers 2 might help them keep it on life support.

HG received numerous offers for a Robotech movie from other studios. It wasn't until the success of Transformers and WB's large success with Batman that HG gave them the rights to film Robotech. I heard that the Transformers toyline alone more then paid for the movie so no doubt a potential Robotech toyline is on HG and WB minds' as well.

But Transformers momentum has not worked for any other movie. I believe that Hollywood execs aren't saying, "Let's make more movies like that!"; they're saying "Let's make more movies with Michael Bay and Shia LeBouf!"

True, Hollywood has never really made a giant mecha bandwagon. Probably because they are too lazy to animate them.

Edited April 12, 2009 by Freiflug88

[JB0]

But Transformers momentum has not worked for any other movie. I believe that Hollywood execs aren't saying, "Let's make more movies like that!"; they're saying "Let's make more movies with Michael Bay and Shia LeBouf!"

*sigh*

And once again, Hollywood misses the point.

How can an industry with SO MUCH money in it be SO COMPLETELY BLIND to the obvious?

Things like "Pixar movies do well because they're smartly written" get glazed over in favor of "Pixar movies do well because they're computer-animated."

Transformers? It didn't well because it's a decades-old franchise about giant robots, it was because Micheal Bay is a master director and Shia LeBouf is a great actor.

What did they take away from Jurassic Park? I believe it was "CG effects are the secret to making a blockbuster hit."

And don't EVEN get me started on the rash of "bullet-time" effects in abso-frickin'-lutely immediately everything after The Matrix.

ARRRRGH! THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS!

[Gubaba]

*sigh*

And once again, Hollywood misses the point.

How can an industry with SO MUCH money in it be SO COMPLETELY BLIND to the obvious?

Things like "Pixar movies do well because they're smartly written" get glazed over in favor of "Pixar movies do well because they're computer-animated."

Transformers? It didn't well because it's a decades-old franchise about giant robots, it was because Micheal Bay is a master director and Shia LeBouf is a great actor.

What did they take away from Jurassic Park? I believe it was "CG effects are the secret to making a blockbuster hit."

And don't EVEN get me started on the rash of "bullet-time" effects in abso-frickin'-lutely immediately everything after The Matrix.

ARRRRGH! THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS!

Wait, wait wait...I BELIEVE they'll miss the point, but it's not a done deal yet. But I'll be surprised if they understand why Transformers was a hit (Hell, I'm still trying to figure it out myself...I thought the movie was dismally, depressingly bad).

Anyway, I'm with Taksraven...I can't say a Robotech movie will never get made, but I think it'll take a long, long time if it ever does.

[taksraven]

But I'll be surprised if they understand why Transformers was a hit (Hell, I'm still trying to figure it out myself...I thought the movie was dismally, depressingly bad).

Same thoughts here, I saw it as amazingly bad and it was annoying that a lot of people did like it. (A lot of people liked Titanic too and that was absolute shite.) I put the TF movie in the "dumb action film" genre that used to be so popular in the 1980's and like a lot of the dumb action films that were made in the 80's I suspect that its reputation as a good film will be destroyed, eventually.

Taksraven

[jenius]

You're thinking too hard about the Transformers. The original cartoon was about as dumb as it got and it was such a hit we're now getting dumb movies for it. If the movie was incredibly smart it probably would have been a failure.

[Einherjar]

Yeah, there's probably no chance we'll see the Robotech LAM anytime soon. But while on the subject, could the Shadow Rising script leak and Macross Frontier being released complicate the work being done on the LAM and Shadow Rising?

[Gubaba]

Yeah, there's probably no chance we'll see the Robotech LAM anytime soon. But while on the subject, could the Shadow Rising script leak and Macross Frontier being released complicate the work being done on the LAM and Shadow Rising?

The script leak? Sure, especially since everyone said it sucked.

I'm not sure how MacF would complicate it...Macross Zero was being released while they were working on Shadow Chronicles, and yet it didn't seem to have pushed them any harder to make SC look better.

Or do you mean that now, Macross's profile has been been raised by MacF? I don't know how that would affect things...

[taksraven]

You're thinking too hard about the Transformers. The original cartoon was about as dumb as it got and it was such a hit we're now getting dumb movies for it. If the movie was incredibly smart it probably would have been a failure.

Yes, the original series was pretty dumb, but Beast Wars showed how TF could be good.

Taksraven

[taksraven]

Do we have any idea of the popularity of the Shadow Chronicles release, number of sales or anything like that. Would like to know out of interest.

Taksraven

[JB0]

You're thinking too hard about the Transformers. The original cartoon was about as dumb as it got and it was such a hit we're now getting dumb movies for it. If the movie was incredibly smart it probably would have been a failure.

The problem with the movie was that the cartoon was dumb giant robots shooting each other up.

The movie was a lot of people with occasional glimpses of giant robots.

Now, the ORIGINAL movie... THAT was what Transformers is all about.

Well, aside from the casual slaughter of children's heroes. It's probably a good thing that I'm in the large group of people that missed the original release and didn't see it until MANY years later.

...

I never said it was a GREAT movie. Just that it's a great Transformers movie. And a much better mindless action flick.

[Gubaba]

You're thinking too hard about the Transformers. The original cartoon was about as dumb as it got and it was such a hit we're now getting dumb movies for it. If the movie was incredibly smart it probably would have been a failure.

I never watched the cartoon much, but all I wanted from the movie was awesome scenes of robots beating the stuffing out of each other. Instead, I got giant robots sneaking around a garden, piss jokes, and "humorous" black people.

I'm still bitter about that movie...

Robotech wouldn't even be on my radar screen of movies to see...unless A LOT of my friends REALLY, REALLY like it.

[Gubaba]

Do we have any idea of the popularity of the Shadow Chronicles release, number of sales or anything like that. Would like to know out of interest.

Taksraven

I listened to all three-and-a-half or more hours of Doug Bendo's interview with Tom Bateman...the whole thing was pretty excruciating, as any Doug Bendo production is, but Tom Bateman (who certainly has no love for Harmony Gold) did say that it sold quite well.

The guys at the comic/video store near me also said that they sold a lot of copies of it.

So, while everyone WANTS to believe it was a failure...I don't think it was.

[Einherjar]

The script leak? Sure, especially since everyone said it sucked.

I'm not sure how MacF would complicate it...Macross Zero was being released while they were working on Shadow Chronicles, and yet it didn't seem to have pushed them any harder to make SC look better.

Or do you mean that now, Macross's profile has been been raised by MacF? I don't know how that would affect things...

I didn't expect them to compete with Zero, they don't have the talent for that. With the LAM being announced and then MacF coming around and turn out to be a success it must feel like the whole thing was bad timing for HG, especially if it makes people ask the right questions about their own franchise. It could explain the defensive stance HG has about Robotech.

[Gubaba]

I didn't expect them to compete with Zero, they don't have the talent for that. With the LAM being announced and then MacF coming around and turn out to be a success it must feel like the whole thing was bad timing for HG, especially if it makes people ask the right questions about their own franchise. It could explain the defensive stance HG has about Robotech.

I don't think Harmony Gold has ever really hidden the origins of Robotech...hell, they sell the originals right on their website. But yeah...in a roundabout way, I agree with you. I think they want people to see Robotech as the "primary" version, the one that's going places, and having access to Macross sequels would destroy that notion pretty quick.

If you're a big Southern Cross or Mospeada fan, you really DO have to turn to Harmony Gold to get a fix...Macross fans are lucky enough to have more options...

EDIT: Ooh, hey! I'm a Jamming Birds Sound Tech now!! Does that mean I've no longer survived Macross II...?

Edited April 12, 2009 by Gubaba

[Freiflug88]

So, while everyone WANTS to believe it was a failure...I don't think it was.

Its because we Macross fans have incredibly high standards thanks to Macross DYRL. I watched the 85 robotech episodes then I watched Shadow Chronicles and I enjoyed watching the movie. It wasn't until I had watched DYRL for a few times and later rewatched Shadow Chronicles that I noticed it was crap.

EDIT:

I didn't expect them to compete with Zero, they don't have the talent for that. With the LAM being announced and then MacF coming around and turn out to be a success it must feel like the whole thing was bad timing for HG, especially if it makes people ask the right questions about their own franchise. It could explain the defensive stance HG has about Robotech.

Funny you should say that. Personally, I saw the character and mecha CGI quality in the first Zero episode to be only marginally better then in RSC, it was the beautiful backgrounds in Zero that wins hands down in the visually over RSC for me. The LAM only competes against MacF in the hearts of Macross fans. Besides those same Macross fans will download pirated Macross fans and then watch the LAM in theaters to see something vaguely Macross.

Financial Score:

Robotech LAM: Pool of Macross/Robotech fans and mainstream moviegoers

MacF: A few loyal fans who pay for import DVDs

Edited April 12, 2009 by Freiflug88

[Seto Kaiba]

Do we have any idea of the popularity of the Shadow Chronicles release, number of sales or anything like that. Would like to know out of interest.

I've been trying to get Kevin McKeever to cough up those numbers for a while now... he's mysteriously reluctant to do so.

I listened to all three-and-a-half or more hours of Doug Bendo's interview with Tom Bateman...the whole thing was pretty excruciating, as any Doug Bendo production is, but Tom Bateman (who certainly has no love for Harmony Gold) did say that it sold quite well.

The guys at the comic/video store near me also said that they sold a lot of copies of it.

So, while everyone WANTS to believe it was a failure...I don't think it was.

Yeah, the context of "sold quite well" is the interesting thing. Shadow Chronicles was made on a budget that'd have to double before it could honestly be called "shoestring". Tommy Yune seems to classify it as a success because it earned back its initial investment through DVD sales, the theatrical run, etc. Gotta admit, at the price it was originally selling at, they wouldn't even have to sell 50,000 copies to classify it as a commercial success. I guess their strategy is to claim success by setting ridiculously easy goals for themselves.

I gotta admit, I hate Doug Bendo with a passion... I was fortunate enough to be one of the people responsible for getting him permanently banned from Robotech.com.

I don't think Harmony Gold has ever really hidden the origins of Robotech...hell, they sell the originals right on their website. But yeah...in a roundabout way, I agree with you. I think they want people to see Robotech as the "primary" version, the one that's going places, and having access to Macross sequels would destroy that notion pretty quick.

I agree with that assessment...

It's surely no coincidence that Harmony Gold's release partner ADV Films wasted half the box blurb on Macross's original series gabbing on about how it was part of Robotech.

If you're a big Southern Cross or Mospeada fan, you really DO have to turn to Harmony Gold to get a fix...Macross fans are lucky enough to have more options...

Well, if you're a big Southern Cross fan, you're already a glutton for punishment, if not a full-blown masochist, so dealing with Harmony Gold is probably quite enjoyable for them.

Edited April 12, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[JB0]

Its because we Macross fans have incredibly high standards thanks to Macross DYRL.

Really?

My standards have a lot more to do with the original series.

DYRL is largely mechaporn, and while there's nothing WRONG with that, it's not what made me a Macross fan.

[VF5SS]

Personally, I saw the character and mecha CGI quality in the first Zero episode to be only marginally better then in RSC, it was the beautiful backgrounds in Zero that wins hands down in the visually over RSC for me.

Even so, the directing in Macross Zero is still far better than RSC. You can certainly tell that one was made by industry veterans and the other was from a bunch of guys who didn't know what they were doing. Between Shin dicking around the island and Ichiro Itano making sweet love to your eyes, Zero is at least more engaging than RSC which seems to consists almost entirely of upper body shots of badly drawn people talking to each other. With regards to RSC's success, much of it can be attributed to the fact that it was the only game in town. If Zero had been allowed to come to America, it would have probably done better that RSC.

[Gubaba]

Even so, the directing in Macross Zero is still far better than RSC. You can certainly tell that one was made by industry veterans and the other was from a bunch of guys who didn't know what they were doing. Between Shin dicking around the island and Ichiro Itano making sweet love to your eyes, Zero is at least more engaging than RSC which seems to consists almost entirely of upper body shots of badly drawn people talking to each other. With regards to RSC's success, much of it can be attributed to the fact that it was the only game in town. If Zero had been allowed to come to America, it would have probably done better that RSC.

I disagree. The CGI in Macross Zero is WAAAAY better than the "OVA quality" animation from SC. The VF-0s are insanely detailed, with grime and soot all over them; things explode realistically, rather than just having the same orange poof every time; and the nature shots are beautifully done.

(And, as unsatisfying as a lot of people found the ending of Zero to be, at least it HAD an ending.)

[Freiflug88]

Really?

My standards have a lot more to do with the original series.

DYRL is largely mechaporn, and while there's nothing WRONG with that, it's not what made me a Macross fan.

I meant when comparing the MOVIES Robotech SC and Macross DYRL which are both around 90 mins long (DYRL 115, RSC 88), DYRL wins hands down. Its not a fair comparison between a 36 episode series with plenty of room for drama and character development to movies that can only work the length of 3-4 episodes.

Even so, the directing in Macross Zero is still far better than RSC. You can certainly tell that one was made by industry veterans and the other was from a bunch of guys who didn't know what they were doing. Between Shin dicking around the island and Ichiro Itano making sweet love to your eyes, Zero is at least more engaging than RSC which seems to consists almost entirely of upper body shots of badly drawn people talking to each other. With regards to RSC's success, much of it can be attributed to the fact that it was the only game in town. If Zero had been allowed to come to America, it would have probably done better that RSC.

Robotech's success from the beginning can be attributed that it is the only game in town. In 1985 Robotech was the only intelligent action cartoon with any real drama and serialized episodes on American TV.

As for directing there is no comparison. The guys at HG had never really created a movie before, hence they made the common rookie mistake of trying to fill-in everything with dialogue rather then engaging the audience that is smart enough to fill-in gaps and realize whats happening.

EDIT:

I disagree. The CGI in Macross Zero is WAAAAY better than the "OVA quality" animation from SC. The VF-0s are insanely detailed, with grime and soot all over them; things explode realistically, rather than just having the same orange poof every time; and the nature shots are beautifully done.

(And, as unsatisfying as a lot of people found the ending of Zero to be, at least it HAD an ending.)

Insanely detailed CGI jets yes, but at the cost of really standing out against the drawn cell characters. Though the CG turned out really bland and was rendered horribly, Robotech SC was actually closer to MacF in the blending of CG and Cell drawn charaters in some regards.

BTW anyone know what software was used for Robotech SC? I know Zero used used Maya, Max, and XSI and I am guessing Satelight likely stuck with the newer versions of the same software for Frontier.

Edited April 12, 2009 by Freiflug88

[Gubaba]

As for directing there is no comparison. The guys at HG had never really created a movie before, hence they made the common rookie mistake of trying to fill-in everything with dialogue rather then engaging the audience that is smart enough to fill-in gaps and realize whats happening.

I dunno...maybe they DO need to. I remember checking RT.com during Frontier's run, about the time Ai-kun starting, um, "growing up" (when he suddenly sprouted the creepy insect arms), and someone (Treiz, maybe...?) said something to the effect of, "He has arms? I guess they forgot to animate that before."

So maybe some of them are just lost without the RT narrator explaining what it going on on-screen...

[Freiflug88]

I dunno...maybe they DO need to. I remember checking RT.com during Frontier's run, about the time Ai-kun starting, um, "growing up" (when he suddenly sprouted the creepy insect arms), and someone (Treiz, maybe...?) said something to the effect of, "He has arms? I guess they forgot to animate that before."

So maybe some of them are just lost without the RT narrator explaining what it going on on-screen...

Maybe Treiz was lost because he never saw a Pokemon evolve. Honestly, though Ai-kun became so ugly after his metamorphis that I didn't notice any arms, I wanted Alto to have just shot at him through Ranka no less when she didn't get out of the way.

Now why does the RT narrator always get all the complaints? The Macross narrator also made a habit of stating the obvious.

Edited April 12, 2009 by Freiflug88

[Gubaba]

Maybe Treiz was lost because he never saw a Pokemon evolve. Honestly, though Ai-kun became so ugly after his metamorphis that I didn't notice any arms, I wanted Alto to have just shot at him through Ranka no less when she didn't get out of the way.

I'm talking about earlier...when Ai-kun pops out of the picnic basket and startles Nanase. He's still a cute li'l squirt, but the six little brown stripes across his chest are suddenly moving with a clicky-clacky sound.

Now why does the RT narrator always get all the complaints? The Macross narrator also made a habit of stating the obvious.

I disagree. The Macross narrator only comes in at the beginning of the episode, at next episode preview, and when there's a jump in time in the story. She's relatively unobtrusive. Of course, I think SDFM is the only Macross series that even HAS a narrator to handle more than the openings, so in that sense, I guess you're right.