sketchley Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 Some more random observations on M7's expense: It's a long series. Wouldn't that add to the price? It features music from preceeding and concurrently released Macross series. The royalties (if that is indeed in effect) would be for ALL of the music featured, right?
RedWolf Posted January 7, 2009 Posted January 7, 2009 Yeah with songs of the Character singers featured over and over again. Think of it as an open gig. Its like the songs featured in SGA's latest aired episode Vegas. To use the popular Rock songs the studio would have to pay the Music label who in turn pay the musicians. They have to pay also once the episode is put on DVD from the profit generated.
Excillon Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 (edited) BBTS' e-mail specifically made reference to Yamato's Macross toys. Bandai's Macross toys are ok. And it's for that reason I REFUSE to buy anything else from BBTS. I went to them a lot in the past for things, but no more as much as it pains me to do so. I'll deal with HLJ from now on, so be it. I can't respect a company, or a retailer who won't give it's customers what they want. And chances are, if someone is aware of Macross, knowing the difference between Macross and RT, the HG debacle that goes with it, etc., then they're not going to be looking for some POS Toynami puts out when they could have something vastly superior from Yamato or Bandai. Speaking of which, I noticed they carry the 1/55 reissues from Bandai, but not a 1/48 from Yamato? I'm sorry, but Joel's a f**king hypocrite. Let them pick on a smaller company like Yamato and justify it, but don't f**k with Bandai, right? You'd think as a small company owner who supposedly cares about his customers, he'd empathize with Yamato. Edited January 8, 2009 by Excillon
VFTF1 Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 And it's for that reason I REFUSE to buy anything else from BBTS. I went to them a lot in the past for things, but no more as much as it pains me to do so. I'll deal with HLJ from now on, so be it. I can't respect a company, or a retailer who won't give it's customers what they want. And chances are, if someone is aware of Macross, knowing the difference between Macross and RT, the HG debacle that goes with it, etc., then they're not going to be looking for some POS Toynami puts out when they could have something vastly superior from Yamato or Bandai. Speaking of which, I noticed they carry the 1/55 reissues from Bandai, but not a 1/48 from Yamato? I'm sorry, but Joel's a f**king hypocrite. Let them pick on a smaller company like Yamato and justify it, but don't f**k with Bandai, right? You'd think as a small company owner who supposedly cares about his customers, he'd empathize with Yamato. Well - I'm going to defend BBTS here - and please do be mindful of the fact that I am an anti-HG fanatic who has flames shooting out of his ears and nostrils and has made calls to high hevean against the evil that is their attempt to shut out Yamato. But here goes: 1. I own a business and I know that there is sometimes a HUGE difference between what a few vocal customers yammer about in emails and on web forums or even to your face and what you - as the business owner - see when you analyze your sales. I do not think Joel would have made such a decision lightly, and I think it has very little to do with his personal preference (which you or I have no clue about). For all we know, he's a huge Macross fan with a mammoth collection of Yamato fighters. My point is that it is very possible that despite how vocal we Macross/Yamato fans are, and no matter how "morally right" our arguments are - the spread sheets might be telling Joel a different story. In a time of economic crisis; it might hurt him a lot more to lose a supplier like Toynami than it would hurt him to loose people like YOU. 2. Joel did not create this stupid situation. Joel is forced to respond to it. Joel made a choice - it's a choice that will piss some people off. But think for a minute: would you prefer that he let his business collapse or stop selling Macross goods altogether (including Frontier goods?) Would you prefer that he antagonize business partners? 3. I remember what Joel did when my VF-11B from Yamato's leg fell off. Joel offered me either money or anything from the store of equal value. I happened to chose Toynami's Masterpice VF-1S. The legs didn't fall off. Sure, later I learned more about Macross and Yamato's wonderful 1/48s - but at the time - I was not very impressed with Yamato. Now - from Joel's point of view - selling Yamato probably gave him hundreds of square feet of broken returned Valkyrie and lots of customers he either had to refund or offer replacements to. Yet he STILL offered Yamato products (because people still wanted them). My point here is again simple: ANY retailer who offers Yamato valkyrie products is a little crazy. Contrary to what one might think, I highly doubt that the market for these things is all that huge to begin with. The profit margin for a retailer is tiny. The WHAREHOUSE SPACE that these things take up is HUGE because these are generally huge pieces. 4. Do I agree with Joel's choice? No. Do I like it? No. I EVEN agree with not buying from BBTS to show ones' disdain. But don't call the guy a hypocrite or any other names. I don't think it's fair. I have never heard or nor experienced any thing bad from Joel and BBTS and while it's ok to disagree with their business decision and show your resolve by not buying from them - it just isn't fair to call the guy names. It's not his fault. 5. The vast majority of retailers would prefer to simply sell whatever the market is willing to buy. This means selling both Toynami and Yamato. The conflict that exists is the fault of HG - not BBTS, and not any other retailer who might have to make this decision. So - I would say - keep your aim on HG. Don't buy from BBTS if that's what you feel you must do - sure - but don't lay in too hard on them. I really don't think they did this with malice in mind. It's not like they sat there cackling - also - remember that HG has tried this crud for a while now - but only now did it work with a bigger seller like BBTS. This means Toynami has geared up its' distribution and is making good offers. Yamato is really niche oriented. I prefer Yamato; I think Americans should be able to buy Yamato products. I also think that if this situation were resolved in a common sense way then BBTS would not have to make any choice and could just sell both. In the end - I think Yamato will survive anyways and that they will prosper anyways because of their love and our love for Macross. Pete
jenius Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 I think Joel should be able to sell Macross Plus and MacZero toys from Yamato, I think he should have pushed back on that. Toynami and HG have no right to bully anyone when it comes to those franchises (MacF not being an issue since Toynami and Bandai apparently play nice). As to Yamato Macross toys, Yamato themselves fully admit that their toys are not intended to be sold in the US and Yamato refuses to service them here. Why does Yamato do that? Because Yamato understands their licensing agreements. HG is well within their rights to ask any large retailer to stop selling Macross toys not licensed by HG in the states.
Excillon Posted January 8, 2009 Posted January 8, 2009 Yeah, I understand the legality of it, but on principle, it's still a crock from some wannabe bullies, who are threatening BBTS simply because they're so damn incompetent that they can't engineer and manufacture a product as nice as Yamato's, so they just piss and moan. It's not Yamato's fault that Toynami is apparently run and has toys designed by morons. I mean for christ's sake, while Yamato, Bandai, and even Takara are making leaps and bounds, what do they do? Try to remake the 25+ year old 1/55 line! (As great as it was, and I'm sure they'll f**k it up like they always do) Do we really need to go back to the MP line vs. 1/48 line again? Yeah, Yamato has QC issues as well, but at least they try, and improve a little each new line.
akt_m Posted January 9, 2009 Posted January 9, 2009 Can't they just use the english firebomber musics??? Or maybe they could cut some of the repetitive songs over the series also maybe some of the bad episodes and make a 25 episodes series.
Einherjar Posted January 9, 2009 Posted January 9, 2009 If the BBTS situation is going to be a hassle for people, maybe it'll be better to look for other stores without those restrictions. There are a lot of e-stores all around without this problem that could be selling the same things for better prices.
Ginrai Posted January 9, 2009 Posted January 9, 2009 It's not Yamato's fault that Toynami is apparently run and has toys designed by morons. I mean for christ's sake, while Yamato, Bandai, and even Takara are making leaps and bounds, what do they do? Try to remake the 25+ year old 1/55 line! (As great as it was, and I'm sure they'll f**k it up like they always do) Do we really need to go back to the MP line vs. 1/48 line again? Yeah, Yamato has QC issues as well, but at least they try, and improve a little each new line. Wow, way to be 8 years out of date. Did you somehow miss the neat little 1/100 Valkyries or the massive Beta fighter that is getting so much love lately?
Master Dex Posted January 9, 2009 Posted January 9, 2009 Can't they just use the english firebomber musics??? Or maybe they could cut some of the repetitive songs over the series also maybe some of the bad episodes and make a 25 episodes series. Despite how slow the show can run, that would probably make it far worse because even on slow episodes that don't seem to move the plot the characters are still developing. As for using English Fire Bomber music... well they'd probably try that anyway, most dubbed Macross has had the music changed except for some.. I never saw the ADV Macross dub though so I don't know about that. I know the M+ dub was done by the Robotech people so it is entirely english. Also English Fire just sucks.
azrael Posted January 9, 2009 Posted January 9, 2009 Also, it depends on the contract that was made and how they deal with international licensing (and unless this becomes a legal issue) we will never see those contracts. Redwolf kinda has the idea. The length of M7 won't be as big of a issue. Because the songs were made specifically for the show, how many times they're used would have factored into the original contract of the show (think of it as theme music) so I won't worry about length unless you want to itemize it which would be a royal pain-in-the-.... The issue I would be worry about is the sheer number of songs made for the series that would eat up more money than the show itself. Consequently, Frontier might also suffer from this problem. Now for the songs specific to M7, royalties would probably have to be paid to singers (songwriters I'm going to say maybe, but I'm inclined to say no because that might fall in the category of "work-for-hire") and the license holder, i.e. Victor Entertainment/JVC. Most shows don't have the sheer number of songs as Macross so the price is going to be much higher than normal. Much much higher. Then we get to the issue of the other non-M7 soundtracks. You would probably have to pay the licensing fees for that and then, when you import it, you would probably have to pay the international licensee of that soundtrack (since it uses music from M+ and MII, that would be Manga Entertainment and since it also uses DYRL? music, good luck finding who has the license to that music). So you end up paying more than you could probably be making a profit out of. In MF's case, again we would have the same issue. Number of songs is relatively high so it's going to be a little hard to get that over. Then you have usage of other series' songs (M7, DYRL? and SDFM). So you'll need to pay a fee for those and whomever is the international licensee of those soundtracks. Now keep in mind who would likely be the licensee of the SDFM tracks. Surprisingly, M0 would probably have the easiest time coming over since it uses no soundtracks from any previous show.
VF5SS Posted January 11, 2009 Posted January 11, 2009 Wow, way to be 8 years out of date. Did you somehow miss the neat little 1/100 Valkyries or the massive Beta fighter that is getting so much love lately? Those little ones were shitty and who cares about Mospeada.
Einherjar Posted January 11, 2009 Posted January 11, 2009 Wow, way to be 8 years out of date. Did you somehow miss the neat little 1/100 Valkyries or the massive Beta fighter that is getting so much love lately? Actually, that's something I've been wondering about. Now that the first Beta is out are there any other toys they can release that isn't a rehash or color variant of a previous toy?
JB0 Posted January 11, 2009 Posted January 11, 2009 Actually, that's something I've been wondering about. Now that the first Beta is out are there any other toys they can release that isn't a rehash or color variant of a previous toy? They could do something with Southern Cross. I think there were some helicopter robots no one made toys of.
Excillon Posted January 11, 2009 Posted January 11, 2009 Wow, way to be 8 years out of date. Did you somehow miss the neat little 1/100 Valkyries or the massive Beta fighter that is getting so much love lately? Yeah, let's break that down: 1/100? Other than being absolutely fugly, I mean straight up coyote ugly (never thought I'd use that term for toys, but the vf-1s head especially is hideous), do we all not remember the cracking polycaps on series one, or trying to pose them and having legs/arms fall off super easily. Or how about series 2? Those 1J's with those BEAUTIFUL elongated necks...yeah, great. Beta? Oh please...the only reason the Beta is getting "Love" is because until recently the only "real" tread toy you could get cost you your left testicle, a kidney, and your firstborn child. I've gotten to mess with one, and I was very unimpressed. Besides, why on earth would you want that POS when you could get a Brave Alpha/Tread set that is so much cooler it's not even funny. So in conclusion, you say I'm 8 years out of date...I say you're 8 years in denial.
Roger Posted January 11, 2009 Posted January 11, 2009 So in conclusion, you say I'm 8 years out of date...I say you're 8 years in denial. Oooh, BURN!
edwin3060 Posted January 12, 2009 Posted January 12, 2009 The cracking polycaps are still present in series 2, I might add.
Einherjar Posted January 12, 2009 Posted January 12, 2009 Beta? Oh please...the only reason the Beta is getting "Love" is because until recently the only "real" tread toy you could get cost you your left testicle, a kidney, and your firstborn child. I've gotten to mess with one, and I was very unimpressed. Besides, why on earth would you want that POS when you could get a Brave Alpha/Tread set that is so much cooler it's not even funny. At the price they're selling the Toynami Beta combined with the economy these days, it must feel like it still costs people that left testicle, kidney and child. Even worse, there are variants coming out with, possibly, the same story. Unfortunately, I'm not that adventurous with money, but I feel for you.
taksraven Posted January 13, 2009 Posted January 13, 2009 At the price they're selling the Toynami Beta combined with the economy these days, it must feel like it still costs people that left testicle, kidney and child. Even worse, there are variants coming out with, possibly, the same story. Unfortunately, I'm not that adventurous with money, but I feel for you. Wouldn't it just be easier to hand over your TWO firstborn children so you can keep your left testicle and kidney? Thats what I would do. :lol: Taksraven
Zinjo Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 The biggest obstacle to BigWest is the ownership of the trademark to the name "Macross". Prior to 2003, it wasn't owned, because everytime HG or BW would apply for it, the other would block it. After the 2002 ruling in Japan giving BW intellectual property rights to the Macross franchise. Early in 2003, HG went after the trademark again and for some enigmatic reason BW didn't block it, thus HG won the trademark. Now BW has to fight to get back what they already have a right to . Hence the lack of any new Macross productions coming over since 2003. Unless they are rebranded and all references to the term "Macross" are removed, domestic licensers are going to be blocked by HG over trademark infringement. With the Warner deal for the RT movie in the wings, BW will have to convice that studio that their RT project is not in danger of any legal entanglements just to keep WB (with its deep pockets) out of the trademark battle with HG. The only legal recourse for BW is to commission a Western company to do a subtitle and dubbing track for their Bluray releases and sell them directly that way, but it seems that ship may have sailed...
Sdf Prime Posted January 15, 2009 Posted January 15, 2009 Wow it is hard to believe that Big West didn't defend their trademark to Macross. Is Big West currently trying to regain their trademark ?
Zinjo Posted January 15, 2009 Posted January 15, 2009 Wow it is hard to believe that Big West didn't defend their trademark to Macross. Is Big West currently trying to regain their trademark ? Not as far as anyone knows.
Sdf Prime Posted January 15, 2009 Posted January 15, 2009 Not as far as anyone knows. So that pretty much means that there wont be anymore Macross released out side of Japan unless it comes through HG then?
RedWolf Posted January 15, 2009 Posted January 15, 2009 Wow it is hard to believe that Big West didn't defend their trademark to Macross. Is Big West currently trying to regain their trademark ? Well by the same extension HG can't name any new production Macross because it would definitely cause a lawsuit that they would lose. Besides HG can't make a decent production if their lives depended on it. Their marketing machinery sucks as well. Not to mention Big West can probably make a restraining order happen for the RT movie out of sheer spite. HG knows it is financially on thin ice.
sketchley Posted January 15, 2009 Posted January 15, 2009 Prior to 2003, it wasn't owned, because everytime HG or BW would apply for it, the other would block it. After the 2002 ruling in Japan giving BW intellectual property rights to the Macross franchise. Early in 2003, HG went after the trademark again and for some enigmatic reason BW didn't block it, thus HG won the trademark. (...) Trademark in which country? Not here (Japan.) Perhaps you mean overseas/internationally? In that regards, as HG purchased the international distribution rights from Tatsunoko, who in 2002 were ruled as having those rights, why wouldn't they be legally allowed to acquire that trademark, outside of Japan?
RedWolf Posted January 15, 2009 Posted January 15, 2009 Trademark in which country? Not here (Japan.) Perhaps you mean overseas/internationally? In that regards, as HG purchased the international distribution rights from Tatsunoko, who in 2002 were ruled as having those rights, why wouldn't they be legally allowed to acquire that trademark, outside of Japan? Distribution of SDF Macross in North America. I'd hardly call North America international. Remember Bandai Visual had the option of bringing over Macross 7 but they'll have to pay an exorbitant amount for the music. Same rule probably applies for Macross Frontier. Big West can push it if they really want to expand their market there. HG depraved as it is would want to stop it as they like to really hang on to their nitch market.
Einherjar Posted January 15, 2009 Posted January 15, 2009 The R.D.F. Underground podcast by Justy Ueki is back after a long hiatus and keeping the dream alive: http://www.rdfunderground.com/
sketchley Posted January 15, 2009 Posted January 15, 2009 Distribution of SDF Macross in North America. I'd hardly call North America international. (...) I didn't write the terms of the contract. Though, as someone who is in Japan, I can understand how Tatsunoko and Big West (both also in Japan) know and perceive North America as an international release. Also, isn't North America composed of a bunch of countries? Doesn't any release other than a domestic-only release to a single country in the continent count as an international release?
VFTF1 Posted January 15, 2009 Posted January 15, 2009 Wow, way to be 8 years out of date. Did you somehow miss the neat little 1/100 Valkyries or the massive Beta fighter that is getting so much love lately? This is a brilliant point. YAMATO! JUST STOP MAKING YOUR STUPID 1/60 VF-1s and your ugly 1/48s!! How can you even continue making your trash when you have the beauty that is the 1/100 Toynami MACROSS VF-1!! Somebody - please - send some of those things to those lamos at Yamato! Does Graham know what he's been missing?! I feel like such a twerp! I hereby announce: FOR TRADE: 4 1/48S (Stealth + low Viz v.2, + 1J Hikaru + 1S Roy + Stealth Super and Strike parts) + 3 1/50 v.2s (2 1Ss and 1 1A) + 2 SV-51s (Nora and Ivanov), two Zeros (Shin/Roy), Ghost and extra rockets etc etc IN EXCHANGE FOR: 1/100 Macross Toynami collection! Oh please! Please! Won't anyone trade with me? Boo hoo Boo ho ho hoo I can't stand my POS Yamatos anymore with their anime accurate moulds and their stupid sleak designs! I can't stand it how when you put a Valkyrie on its' stand it DOESN'T fall off under the weight of gravity! I also can't stand how the heads on my VF-1s don't spontaneously rip off! And what's with those ugly anime accurate fists! Please - I'm begging you! Take these ugly things from me and send me the brilliant 1/100 line! And a Beta fighter! pleeeeaaaaase ! Pete [ps: as if anyone were actually to take the above seriously - but still: Please be advised that the above is all sarcasm]
Einherjar Posted January 15, 2009 Posted January 15, 2009 Ugh, Shadow Chronicles is still awful. Well, can't blame him for the lack of material with the franchise really quiet at the moment. Except for some blurbs about merchendise, "movie" updates, and convention panels, who knows what the situation is.
Zinjo Posted January 15, 2009 Posted January 15, 2009 (edited) Trademark in which country? Not here (Japan.) Perhaps you mean overseas/internationally? In that regards, as HG purchased the international distribution rights from Tatsunoko, who in 2002 were ruled as having those rights, why wouldn't they be legally allowed to acquire that trademark, outside of Japan? Yes, I meant in North America. BigWest owns the Intellectual Property rights to the franchise, while HG only holds the distribution rights to the animation, via Tatsunoko. A trademark denotes IP rights over a product, which neither Tatsunoko or HG have. If argued, BW could potentially prove that "their" IP rights are being infringed by a trademark awarded to a license holder of the animated TV program. The tough part is ensuring that a Western judge understands the Japanese court decision and how it relates to the case. Since 1999 both sides attempted to trademark the name Super Dimension Fortress Macross (including 超時空要塞マクロス, Chō Jikū Yōsai Makurosu) in the US several times and both parties "abandoned" their attempts over and over, until early 2003 when HG finally secured it. The ownership of the IP rights is likely the reason why Warner Bros has opted to "reimagine" RT for the big screen. If it does go into production, I will be surprised to see any references made to Macross, it's story or even the term "Macross" itself appearing in the final film. Edited January 15, 2009 by Zinjo
Dangard Ace Posted January 15, 2009 Posted January 15, 2009 If you have nothing to add to the license debate stay out or this thread gets locked again.
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