Robotech and HG license debates

[Roger]

Has anyone considered the possibility that Toynami might be asserting rights to the domestic distro of official Macross product because they're gearing up for a domestic release of MacrossF products and media?

Oh, come on, Ray, don't be such a Scrooge by trying to inject some speculative optimism. Please let people hold on to their negative assumptions. It's the holidays, after all!

[Vostok 7]

*sigh* The days of rabid Toynami/Harmony Gold hating Macross fans are long gone. Those were the days. It's a new era, not welcome for dinosaurs like me. A kindler, gentler, Robotech-apologizing era.

Vostok 7

Edited December 15, 2008 by Vostok 7

[VFTF1]

If Toynami and HG put Macross Frontier out in the USA it'll probably be just as chopped up and twisted as what they did to SDFM TV.

I think some people are missing the source of the anger.

Macross as it stands in Japan - as it is in the originals - is a completely different, and in the opinion of many of us, much better show, story and universe.

Why should Americans not be allowed the benefit of choosing for themselves which universe/franchise they prefer?

That a court said something doesn't make it right - I think it's not right to take away consumers' choices.

Why doesn't HG/Toynai compete on the strength of their products and the quality of their animated stories?

It will also backfire on HG - this isn't 1982. HG is trying to create a situation where it's 1982 again and nobody knows anything about the real Macross and will just blindly swallow HG's interpretation.

As for Roger's accusation of hypocracy....

Am I a hypocrite when I buy a Wendy's burger on Thursday, saying it's the best thing in the world, but on Friday go to Macdonalds and enjoy their burgers?

And what if Macdonalds suddenly said - hey- we're going to sue Wendys, Burgerking and anybody else that makes hamburgers because that's our creation?

I just don't understand this situation.

Americans have theright to be interested in Japanese Macross stories and merchandise, and they have the right to purchase it.

I would be interested in reading the court decision and learning more about the case because it just seems crazy that HG would be given these rights - it sounds more like a case of a foreign, Japanese based company having little to no recourse in American jurisprudence when up against an American company - and nothing more.

Pete

[Roger]

As for Roger's accusation of hypocracy....

Am I a hypocrite when I buy a Wendy's burger on Thursday, saying it's the best thing in the world, but on Friday go to Macdonalds and enjoy their burgers?

And what if Macdonalds suddenly said - hey- we're going to sue Wendys, Burgerking and anybody else that makes hamburgers because that's our creation?

Let me answer your question with a question: what if you go to Wendy's and you bring your own mustard to put on your burger?

[DarkHawk]

The people that care about both things (Macross Frontier in the US and Toynami's "bad press") probably couldn't fill a school bus. That's my opinion.

good point.....maybe a small bus though

[Einherjar]

*sigh* The days of rabid Toynami/Harmony Gold hating Macross fans are long gone. Those were the days. It's a new era, not welcome for dinosaurs like me. A kindler, gentler, Robotech-apologizing era.

Vostok 7

Either that, or the era of the rabid Tommy Yune/Toynami/Harmoney Gold hating Robotech fans having a really hard time letting go.

[Roger]

Either that, or the era of the rabid Tommy Yune/Toynami/Harmoney Gold hating Robotech fans having a really hard time letting go.

So fess up, which "Anonymous" are you in the comments section? ;p

[jwinges]

This is as low as it gets. I can't believe they caved into this crap. BBTS should stand up to toynami and tell'em to stick it.

[Roger]

This is as low as it gets. I can't believe they caved into this crap. BBTS should stand up to toynami and tell'em to stick it.

And then they would have no more Toynami products to sell.

And then people on Macrossworld would bitch about BBTS. ;p

[Totoro242]

It will also backfire on HG - this isn't 1982. HG is trying to create a situation where it's 1982 again and nobody knows anything about the real Macross and will just blindly swallow HG's interpretation.

I think this whole situation is crappy too, but the above comment is just plain retarded.

Come on man, argue facts and argue opinion; don't argue idiotic conspiracy fantasies. HG currently makes plenty of money off of ADV Macross DVD's and Macross toys and has never tried to "cover up" Robotech's origins. Ever.

Edited December 15, 2008 by Totoro242

[Roy Focker]

Sounds like a simple case of "if you want to sell our product don't sell there's." BBTS just decided they rather have Toynami as supplier than Yamato. If you want to voice your displeasure don't buy from BBTS. Canceal your standing orders with them. All your orders not just Toynami ones. Let them know why you cancealing all your orders. Money talks if you refuse to use BBTS they act.

[aaajin]

I think.....I think....Roger works for toynazi...

LOL!

[Rabidweezil]

From what I remember from the 2002 incident. Spidey's lawyer had asked HG to cough up their license agreement and they refused. So how can they enforce ownership of Macross properties without proving it legally?

[TheLoneWolf]

LOL Some guy started a legal fund against HG and then ran off with the money? I never heard that one. Is it true or just some urban legend?

Urban legend.

SpideyJerusalem ran an online store that sold imported Macross goods (among other things) and in 2002 he received a formal letter from Harmony Gold's legal counsel (Alan Letz) requesting that he stop. Since SpideyJerusalem (Joel) couldn't afford legal counsel on his own, several MW'ers donated money to help him do so. He eventually got enough to retain an attorney. After Joel's attorney examined Harmony Gold's letter, he requested that Harmony Gold submit a copy of their agreement with Tatsunoko so that he could examine their jurisdiction. Joel's attorney waited for Harmony Gold's response. And waited. And waited. And waited some more. Neither Joel nor his attorney ever heard back from Harmony Gold, so he went back to selling imported Macross toys. End of story.

Since there wasn't a knock-down, courtroom battle ala Law & Order, most people wrongly assumed that Joel took the money and ran. Nothing could be further from the truth. We at MW are notorious cheapskates and have a propensity for making mountains out of molehills. If Joel really did rip off the generous donations from MW, there would have been a cataclysm of epic proportions. If Shawn ever unlocks the old forum, you can find the relevant threads. Along with Jimmy Hoffa's body.

[azrael]

Along with Jimmy Hoffa's body.

Who told you about that body? There's nobody there. It's just a story we tell newbies. *kicks rotten hand back into closet*

If you disagree with BBTS cancelling Yamato sales then voice with your wallets. Don't by Toynami stuff and/or don't buy anything from BBTS.

[the white drew carey]

If you disagree with BBTS cancelling Yamato sales then voice with your wallets. Don't by Toynami stuff and/or don't buy anything from BBTS.

That's a good idea. Here's the e-mail I just sent to them:

Greetings Big Bad Toy Store Staff and Management-

I am writing to you today to express my concern and dissatisfaction in regards to your recent decision to stop selling Yamato-manufactured Macross products at the behest of Toynami's request and/or threat.

As we have all learned through years of legalese and threats, Harmony Gold has yet to provide legal proof to their claim of ownership of the Macross franchise (a claim that has varied wildly from "worldwide rights [outside of Japan], to North American distro rights, and anywhere in between). In 2002, Harmony Gold made a similar attempt to prevent small online retailers from selling imported Macross merchandise based on the same claim. When some of those retailers obtained legal representation, Harmony Gold dropped any further attempts to enforce their claim. At the time, and since, representatives from Harmony Gold have provided, at times, wild and outlandish statements meant to back up their claim of Macross rights

Now, however, you are allowing a company to dictate what product you sell. While it may be true that Toynami products (of all brands) may sell more than the Yamato Macross products, your capitulation in this case has lost one infrequent (yet loyal) customer. Until such a time as you deny a company to dictate which products you sell, I will look elsewhere for the products that I used to purchase from BBTS.

Thank you for your time,

Jeff Sorley

[Gubaba]

I think the best thing to do is to try to order as much Yamato stuff as possible from BBTS. When they see the thousands of dollars they have to turn down in order to make way for Toynami, they may change their mind.

Or, any time you buy a Yammie from somewhere else, drop BBTS a line, saying, "I wanted to buy this from you, but instead I had to go to Retailer X." Something like that.

In other words, let them know they're missing out.

[transfan52]

For all we know this whole HG ban thing on japanese macross items could be just a rumor... There no solid evidence to support this... If HG really was able to ban macross items in the US you'd think every website would participate in this effort but that is not the case...

The whole HG rights is up in the air ne way... and no judge really thinks its worth the time and effort to settle the case... That's why things are the way they are... Japan doesn't even have a big market outside of asia for macross goods ne way so it is of no consequence to either party really. I can't imagine that HG is making a ton of money off of the franchise ne way.

[Project Phoenix]

Toynazi and the HG-Homos wins again! Oh when will the horror end?

It will be a great Christmas if HG and Toynami suddenly goes bankrupt and fires everyone. But one can only wish...

The torture and suffering of true Macross fans continues...

[jenius]

HG has the rights to the original Macross show and merchandise outside of Japan. That means there are official channels to sell things in the states (licensed merchandise) and unofficial channels (imported goods). Everyone in the states who sells imported Macross goods is engaging in the "Gray Market" and should realize (although some may not) that HG has the right at any time to issue a C&D. The thing about issuing C&Ds is that they're cheap and easy. HG has clearly been extremely half-assed in their efforts to back up their own license though and that's why the gray market is thriving. I'm not at all surprised that once anyone says "Prove it" they disappear because they're not looking to spend money to stop little shops from selling foreign toys, they're looking to have those shops voluntarily respect the rights (the cost benefit just isn't their to actually bring in a lawyer beyond drafting the C&D). Having Toynami actually be successful (I can't believe I just wrote that) gives HG a weapon now to use so they can avoid lawyers that much easier with the simple threat to choke off supply.

Any remaining legal issues beyond this have to do with the intellectual property rights, derivatives, the name Macross, etc. There's no dispute as to HG's claim to the original Macross footage and the associated merchandising. Correct me if I'm wrong but I was pretty sure that the last concrete ruling we had affirmed BW's intellectual ownership and limited HG to just the footage and the merchandising (ie. no sequels, no returning characters, nothing new that appears to have its roots in Macross).

[Mr March]

Urban legend.

SpideyJerusalem ran an online store that sold imported Macross goods (among other things) and in 2002 he received a formal letter from Harmony Gold's legal counsel (Alan Letz) requesting that he stop. Since SpideyJerusalem (Joel) couldn't afford legal counsel on his own, several MW'ers donated money to help him do so. He eventually got enough to retain an attorney. After Joel's attorney examined Harmony Gold's letter, he requested that Harmony Gold submit a copy of their agreement with Tatsunoko so that he could examine their jurisdiction. Joel's attorney waited for Harmony Gold's response. And waited. And waited. And waited some more. Neither Joel nor his attorney ever heard back from Harmony Gold, so he went back to selling imported Macross toys. End of story.

Since there wasn't a knock-down, courtroom battle ala Law & Order, most people wrongly assumed that Joel took the money and ran. Nothing could be further from the truth. We at MW are notorious cheapskates and have a propensity for making mountains out of molehills. If Joel really did rip off the generous donations from MW, there would have been a cataclysm of epic proportions. If Shawn ever unlocks the old forum, you can find the relevant threads. Along with Jimmy Hoffa's body.

Thanks TheLoneWolf. Much appreciated.

So SpideyJerusalem was the Macross fan that bit back. I always wondered who that was. Time to copy and paste this into a perm file.

[VFTF1]

I'll try to comment on everything that's been said:

Re: Bringing your own mustard to Wendy's (Roger's comment):

I think that if I brought my own Mustard to Wendy's, and told them at the cash register to please make my Burger without mustard because I use my own for health/nutritional reasons they would say "sure- no problem." If on the other hand they said "sorry, but we can't do that for you" then I would either say "ok, no problem" or - if I really had a health reason or taste reason or felt strongly enough about it - I'd say "well then thank you and have a nice day" and go somewhere where they'd be more accomodating.

Wendy's owns their restaurants. Wendy's has the right to make the decision whether to allow me to use my own Mustard or not. If they don't let me - I have the free choice to go elsewhere to other burger joints.

Where is the comparisson to what Harmony Gold is doing?

Harmony Gold is acting as though it has the property rights to the patent of "hamburger" and it's going to dictate to consumers (by threatening retailers) which burgers they can and can't buy.

Joel's attorney waited for Harmony Gold's response. And waited. And waited. And waited some more. Neither Joel nor his attorney ever heard back from Harmony Gold, so he went back to selling imported Macross toys. End of story.

Good for Joel.

And bad for BBTS's Joel for not doing the same thing.

On this note - so other than what we've heard and what's been implied from C&D letters to some retailers - nobody has actually studied the case itself?

Guys - if it was so clear cut then Harmony Gold would back up its' C&D letters with legal execution. There are legal means for them to pursue short of expensive lawsuits against retailers and importers if in fact the ruling is so blatantly in their favor on the issue.

That they haven't means that there's something fishy about the ruling and it's not at all as clear cut as all that. That HG prefer to resort to blackmail (stop buying Yammies or we won't give you Toynami) doesn't surrise me.

That's it's working also doesn't surprise me. Independent of how well Yamato sells vs how well Toynami sells, Toynami's wholesale costs are radically lower than those of Yamato because Toynami already has the products in the USA and even the stuff that is imported is done so through Toynami and the retailer doesn't have to worry about it. The profits from Yamato products - contrary to what some people might think - are miniscule for everybody on the producer-retailer chain and I wouldn't be surprised if Toynami was simply more profitable in the long run.

I also - again - wouldn't be surprised if BBTS just wanted to avoid legal trouble - or potential trouble - particularlyi n the midst of a depression. Ok - I understand that.

Be that as it may - I still contend that Toynami is violating consumer protection laws and engaging in racketeering.

If a small retailer asks them to back up their claim and they just stay silent - then what does that tell us?

Also - I know some people think I'm being extreme - but the Fair Use doctrine is also a legitamite point of concern here. And no - it's not "conspiracy theory" to think that Harmony Gold would like to return to 1982 and pretend that the Japanese Macross never happened - it's evident in their sales policy. They would like to pretend that they are responsible for the best Macross stories, the best Macross toys and the best Macross everything.

I'm also cancelling all my pre-orders from BBTS, though there weren't that many of them to begin with (just the Henkei Thurst/Dirge set and their 1/24 Patlabor from...you guessed it...Yamato), but prior to opening my own shop, I was a huge BBTS customer for the past 10 years and I'm just not going to be anymore.

BBTS are a large enough store that they could afford to take a bit more of a principled stand on this issue and at least ask Harmony Gold to back up their claim.

When a retailer's lawyer asks a company's lawyers for the legal basis for a C&D this is a gentlemanly thing. It costs nothing. Laywers can read. The company lawyer could have said - hey - look - here's our basis A, B and C.

The retailer's lawyer would look at it - and if indeed he judged that these were firm, strong basis he would tell his client "sorry Joel the Retailer Dude - but we have no case here."

That didn't happen - because Harmony Gold probably doesn't have much of a case.

Besides - like someone else pointed out - what store allows itself to be bullied like that? If somebody tried to hassel me about what products I can and can't sell without showing me a very VERY firm legal basis - I wouldn't stand for it because it's my business and I decide what to sell and what not to within the confines of law.

I grant that maybe BBTS did take a stand and did ask for a firm basis - and they don't really want to say that or get into details. It's their right.

I don't hold a grudge against them for making the choice they made - I just would have made a different one.

In any event - I repeat: Americans have a right - a constitutional first amendment right - to enjoy the Japanese version of Macross and all of its' derivatives. One flimsy court case does not negate this right, and if a company is going around the USA blackmailing and threatening retailers to whipe out their competition - then this is not right, this is not a business practice that can be condoned.

Again: Harmony Gold should compete on the quality of its' product and the quality of its' version of Macross/Robotech. Not by resorting to threats and blackmail.

Add to that another thing: if HG does not have the international rights to anything derivative of the original SDF TV series then a simple question:

All of Yamato's VF-1 Valkyrie are based on the designs from DYRL, not from SDF TV.

So? Why does Harmony Gold think it has the right to limit products based on DYRL? What? because they look pretty much the same? So what?

In any event - for people who complain about Yamato's prices and quality (and nobody is forcing you to buy Yamato), folks seem to be pretty passive and docile when Toynami suddenly takes away your choices as a consumer.

Consumers have rights too. The basic one is the right to choose between different products by various producers.

I won't even get into the ethical conundrum of HG claiming to have the right to something which they didn't create, didn't think up, didn't animate and only helped butcher.

Pete

[JB0]

Which means Macross Frontier is not welcome in America either.

GREAT JOB Harmony Gold! Way to go...

It never was welcome. HG's been throwing hissy fits for what, fifteen years now?

This is a horrible situation.

Yup.

I hope that with Bandai as the new sponsor for Macross Frontier, that they will fight to put Macross Frontier on toonami and bring Macross items to America.

You mean like they did when they localized VF-X2, then bailed out on the release at the very last minute, after taking out multi-page magazine ads and demo disk space?

No one will ever convince me that the official story about Bandai suddenly realizing THAT late that the game wouldn't sell is true. I think HG threatend to sue, and they decided it wasn't worth fighting.

It wouldn't matter if HG's claims are valid or not. The cost of duking it out in court isn't worth it when they can grab a game/anime that ISN'T mired in a quasi-legal fiasco.

It is, admittedly, ALSO possible that the game was vetoed by SCEA. It wouldn't be the only title to disappear at the last minute. Megaman Battle & Chase had a similarly late death, though the story on that one is much clearer.

This is just ridiculous.

Yup.

You guys should write mass emails to BBTS not to allow itself to be strong armed like this... although - I guess they made the decision for one of two (or both) reasons:

a) because perhaps Yamato Macross was not as big a seller and certainly not as profitable as Toynami

b) because they were afraid of incurring legal liability (no company wants a lawsuit and the last thing a retailer needs in this economy is a lawsuit)

I suspect B. That's the usual problem.

You have every right to celebrate Macross as it was originally concieved. It's a constituional right - it's a first amendment right - people can't tell you that you can't talk about and celebrate Macross as it was originally concieved. They can't.

Ummm... I don't recall this being a free speech issue. No one's ever said anything about banning Macross.

Besides, what about copyright law? I don't recall free speech extending to reproductions of someone else's work without compensation.

Admittedly, the US constitution does not contain copyright, but free speech is not an absolute "say, draw, or make anything you darn well please" rule.

Tangentally, free speech NOT a constitutional right, or a first amendment right. It's a pre-existing right, presumably one of the ones that people are "endowed by their creator" with in the Declaration of Independence, and the first amendment merely ensures that the federal government does not infringe upon it.

The entire bill of rights is carefully worded to make it PROTECT rights, not GRANT them(and in fact, dedicates an amendment to saying as much, albeit in legalese).

You know what - the court is just wrong here because we are dealing with two distinct properties. Macross as concieved of originally in Japan and all of its' derivates (the Japanese Macross universe) and Macross as part of an American mish-mash created in the 80s called Robotech and continued today.

Two completely seperate universes.

A. The courts aren't involved. The only time they ever got to a point where anything happened was in the BattleTech case. And even that wound up settled out of court.

Sadly, one of the terms of the settlement was that the Battletech guys couldn't talk about it. Given they're the only people to have SEEN HG's alleged license... (I recall one of the guys saying in a somewhat vague fashion that the license wasn't as concrete as HG made it out to be, but it wasn't a direct statement of what they actually had)

B. HG's argument isn't that Macross merchandise is infringing on the Robotech brand. Their argument is that they own exclusive rights to the Macross franchise outside Japan, via their contract with Tatsunoko.

Which is questionable at best, given Tatsunoko doesn't OWN rights to the Macross franchise, and almost certainly has no toy rights to anything.

Even assuming HG's license says what they claim it does, imported merchandise falls into a gray area. I gather it's dependent, among other things, on volume imported. But HG has never approached it in a proper manner.

Giving Harmony Gold these rights is like giving the Chinese bootleggers who make those fake G1 molds the rights to Transformers.

... If the chinese bootleggers were actually legitimately licensed to produce Transformers products twenty years ago, and no one was really sure what their license said anymore.

I mean? What? Are you supposed to just not know about Macross? Erase it from your mind? Forget about it?

Certainly not. In fact, you're supposed to buy the licensed region 1 SDF Macross DVDs from ADV for the low, low price of ... well, whatever they go for right now. And then you're supposed to write Big West and tell them to quit refusing to send vidoe files to their licensed US distributor! YEAH! It's all Big West's fault for not acknowledging HG's exclusive international distribution contract!

Or at least, that's Harmony Gold's take on things.

LEGALLY, until the license issue is resolved, the only people that can successfully acquire a license to produce Non-SDF Macross merchandise are operating in Japan and officially targeting the japanese market.

As Big West doesn't seem willing to come over here and sue Harmony Gold, or start distributing anime themselves and waiting for Harmony Gold to sue them, it seems unlikely that the issue will be resolved any time soon.

The closest anyone's come is ... was it Tokyopop that licensed Macross 7 Trash?

They got a license from Big West. Then got a license from Harmony Gold. Then Big West pulled their license because they were paying license fees to HG. And HG deleted the announcement of the manga release off robotech.com.

So... how exactly does the Macross market look in Europe?

You got any Macross Zero DVDs yet? Frontier toys starting to clog the local Toys R Us?

Yeah. This affects you too. HG claims INTERNATIONAL rights, remember? Not US rights.

[VFTF1]

Ummm... I don't recall this being a free speech issue. No one's ever said anything about banning Macross.

Besides, what about copyright law? I don't recall free speech extending to reproductions of someone else's work without compensation. Admittedly, the US constitution does not contain copyright, but free speech is not an absolute "say, draw, or make anything you darn well please" rule. Tangentally, free speech NOT a constitutional right, or a first amendment right. It's a pre-existing right, presumably one of the ones that people are "endowed by their creator" with in the Declaration of Independence, and the first amendment merely ensures that the federal government does not infringe upon it.

The entire bill of rights is carefully worded to make it PROTECT rights, not GRANT them(and in fact, dedicates an amendment to saying as much, albeit in legalese).

I would contend that what HG is doing effectively co-equal with trying to ban Americans from enjoying Japanese Macross, and therefore trying to infringe upon the right to free speech. The actual amendment just says that "Congress shall make no law" which is perfectly in line with what you correctly claim to be the Declaration's stance that rights exist in nature and are not granted, but rather protected.

That said - how does a copyright law which leads to a situation like this protect the pre-existing natural right to free speech? If it leads to a situation where a company can muscle retailers to compel them not to sell the competition's products and never has to show any legal basis for doing so - then I contend that the law is not working as it should - it is not protecting the pre-existing rights that it should.

In this sense - it is a free speech issue and Americans have a constitutional right to enjoy Macross as the Japanese concieved it if they so wish. No one is saying that Harmony Gold doesn't have the right to promote Robotech and to build on that universe and to even use "their" version of Macross (SDF TV) which was foundational for Robotech. I don't see Yamato or BW prancing around the globe trying to get retailers to stop selling Robotech or fighting battles about it.

Instead, Yamato and BW are just competing the old fashion honest way - trying to make better and better Macross anime and better and better Macross products.

So - clearly we have a breakdown in the legal system.The law, which should protect our rights, is not doing so.

This is why I think Macross fans should write their congressmen and petition their government to look into copyright laws. Globalization and the emergence of the internet have changed the dynamics and the way the world works. Of course rights always stay the same - but how we protect and apply protections to them changes depending on circumstances. It's time copyright laws were changed to reflect existing reality.

This doesn't mean making a free for all that does not respect the rights of creators to their work. But it does mean thinking about various new situations which could not arise prior to the internet which now exist and making laws that try to deal fairly with these situations.

So... how exactly does the Macross market look in Europe?

You got any Macross Zero DVDs yet? Frontier toys starting to clog the local Toys R Us?

Yeah. This affects you too. HG claims INTERNATIONAL rights, remember? Not US rights

In Europe - or at least in Poland, this question is also actually somewhat of an issue; although not so much with regard to HG as with regard to Disney. Disney's been running around getting C&D orders against theater artists and children's choirs who dare to think about putting on anything with Winnie the Pooh in it - particularly anything which say, dares to present Winnie The Pooh as AA Milne did rather than as Disney does now.

There are groups which are claiming that this is an infringement of the rights to enjoy cultural goods - something which the constitution in Poland guarantees. The idea being that people have the right to educating themselves and to learning about history and that you can't - for example - say that children cannot learn Einstein's theory of relativity in physics without paying a licensing fee to the proprietors of Einstein's estate.

Now - in the vast majority of cases - the owners of copyrights are more than happy to let their stuff be used within reason without a fee because it's good publicity for them. For example - I own the copyright to numerous published works which I inherited and which are generally used in schools. I am sure that there are people out there using it "illegally" - but I'm not about to get into a hissy fit over it because if I started to - then most publishing companies that from time to time approach me with contracts would STOP because no body wants to do business with a litigator who throws hissy fits.

Large corporations are a bit more stern about these things because the little guys can be lax since they benefit more from PR than while the big guys loose market share - I understand this.

Again - I'm not trying to be one sided about this.

But I am saying that there is a problem here with this situation and it can't just be brushed aside the way it is now "oh we can't tell you what their license says we can't show it to you but it's there even though no court has ruled on it, oh, maybe one court did" - which one? A local court? A state court? A federal court? An international arbitrage court?

In any event - Harmony Gold is only harming itself. By prolonging this fight they are pouring their resources into a legal battle that will only harm the development of their product. All the more since clearly Bandai, BW, Tats and every other Japanese entity involved has attempted to come to a gentlemanly agreement with them.

But if they can't agree - then are Americans to sit idely by while corporate in-fighting destroys their chance of enjoying a franchise they like?

Pete

[Roger]

Yes.

This really isn't that important in the grand scheme of things, even to the people who have a stake in it: BBTS is probably losing only a small percentage of sales, and the collectors that buy these things can very easily just surf to another site and make their purchases there. Most of them probably weren't buying this stuff from BBTS in the first place. And in the end you're probably talking about 25 to 75 people.

If you want to get outraged about something and support legal action for something that matters, read up on Diebold electronic voting machines. These are much more significant products to look into than Yamato Valkyries (and probably just as flawed).

[yellowlightman]

I would contend that what HG is doing effectively co-equal with trying to ban Americans from enjoying Japanese Macross, and therefore trying to infringe upon the right to free speech.

And this is where the thread goes from typical MW fanboy whining and blowing things out of proportion into the realm of the jaw-droppingly stupid.

Never change, MW.

[Radd]

I fail to see how complaining about things like this makes anyone a "hypocrite", as Roger puts it. Macross fans have long had to deal with HG making it more difficult, and more expensive, to purchase Macross merchandise, and outright impossible to purchase professionally subtitled/dubbed Region 1 DVD releases for anything beyond Macross Plus. Given that HG's claims have been highly questionable since the Tatusnoko v. Big West case indicated that Tatsunoko did not have the rights HG claims to have purchased from them, and situations since as the one described by TheLoneWolf were HG was asked to provide proof of ownership and declined to do so, it's really only given Macross fans all the more reason to be somewhat unhappy with the situation.

That said, I really don't see how the Wendy's/mustard scenario is any sort of analogy at all to this topic.

I do agree that BBTS did about as much as anyone can expect. They're a business, not any sort of defender of the fans, and this is hardly the free speech issue VFTF1 makes it out to be. I also agree that there are much more substantial issues to be outraged about, however I really don't see expressing outrage in an internet forum as being quite the caliber of protest we should demand of people in relation to these more substantial issues. One can complain considerably in internet forums and still be significantly active in more important matters. Also, simply because there are more important issues out there is no reason to suggest that people ought not to express any sort of opinion at all regarding more frivolous matters.

[VFTF1]

I just think it's out of place to accuse me of being frivolous.

I mean - this is a Macross forum and a thread about the license debate. Whre else is one supposed to vent opinions on this matter?

Of course I agree with Roger that there are more important things; but am I expected to write about war, poverty, unemployment, cancer, AIDS, the plight of the Doo Doo bird, racial discrimination and so forth and so on as a prelude to writing about HG?

The contention that it only concerns 25 to 75 people is also completely beside the point (even if you are right about the small number of people it concerns). When something bad happens to some people, it's still something bad and should be written about.

Finally - why is it jaw droppingly stupid to consider this issue from the point of view of whether or not copy right laws are therefore flawed and something is wrong with a system that allows this kind of situation to persist without resolution? I don't claim to be 100% right and to know everything - but I do take the time to lay out some kind of argument and attempt to make it logical. Refuting it is one thing, calling it merely stupid is another.

In any event - I think I would be blowing things out of proportion if I went on every internet forum I could find and began writing about this - but as I'm confining it to Macrossworld in the relevent thread...again - how is this out of proportion?

Finally: of course you have the right to believe this to be a trivial matter. But still - that's what congressmen and petitions and fan organizations are there for - trivial matters. These people are there to make our lives easier - that's how it should be - and we are there to alert them to certain problems.

I worked in a State house office for a while and let me assure you - the stuff people call their representatives over are precisely that TRIVIAL. But when you consider it - that's what these guys are there for; that's what the whole process is about - if you don't like something, you can speak up about it and try to change things or get other people aware.

Of course you have to be polite, respectful and willing to concede that you're not always right - aka - keep things in proportion. I just fail to see how writing what I wrote in a forum dedicated to Macross and this very subject is...out of proportion?

Pete

[kensei]

That said, I really don't see how the Wendy's/mustard scenario is any sort of analogy at all to this topic.

I thought that was stupid as well.

[Roger]

I just think it's out of place to accuse me of being frivolous.

You're saying that buyers of Macross products and retailers should be hiring lawyers and filing suits over this. That's the frivolous part. Set this against a backdrop where adults are buying robot toys and it gets a bit silly.

And if people aren't getting the mustard the analogy then I don't know how much simpler I can make it for you.

[VFTF1]

I think I understand the Mustard analogy:

You're saying that since Wendy's owns the premises of their restaurants, then they can have a policy whereby I must buy their mustard or get out.

Agreed.

But, as I already noted:

a) Wendy's would probably let me use my own mustard if I asked nicely and explained that I do it for healthy or other reasons

b) Harmony Gold does not own the world and they can't force everyone on earth to buy Robotech instead of Yamato Macross products because they think that they own the copyright to something they didn't create and which has been developed and expanded upon by the Japanese over the past 2 decades

As for the frivolous part:

Again - I agree that compared to more important things, this is very frivolous - but this entire forum and this particular subject is dedicated to this very "frivolous" subject - so to say that being passionate about it is frivolous is...itself frivolous

Pete

[Roger]

I think I understand the Mustard analogy:

(snip)

You just demonstrated that you clearly don't understand the mustard analogy.

Again - I agree that compared to more important things, this is very frivolous - but this entire forum and this particular subject is dedicated to this very "frivolous" subject - so to say that being passionate about it is frivolous is...itself frivolous

Don't ignore what I pointed out: you believe that people in America should be spending money on fighting a legal battle that doesn't mean jack in the grand scheme of things. Must be really easy to do when you're sitting in front of a computer in another country.

[jenius]

Pete, your entire argument can best be summed up with the words "epic fail."

The lawsuit being referenced, IIRC, affirmed Tats' ability to sell HG the rights to the original Macross as a film, not an intellectual property. That means that it is easily within HG's rights and ability to stop Japanese imports that don't pay a proper licensing fee. I also see a fair amount of hypocrisy going on here. If any of the members of this thread purchased the rights to something they would want those rights to be honored but yet here they all are saying we should support the gray market and ways of circumventing a rights holder. Granted, we do this because we're not fond of the rights holder but I think you'll see the hypocrisy if the shoe was on the other foot.

[Radd]

If Pete was referencing the Tatsunoko v. Big West case, it seemed to reaffirm Tatsunoko's ability to sell HG international distribution and merchandising rights to the tv series, and seemed to clarify that this applied only to the tv series. HG has gone well beyond the scope of that, which is the primary issues most fans have. Directly, in that HG has worked to prevent the release of any Macross toys, including those beyond the original tv series, and indirectly because it is almost certainly because of HG's tactics that Big West refuses to work with them.

Tatsunoko and Harmony Gold jointly own international distribution and merchandising rights to SDF:M. I don't believe anyone argues against that point. I doubt there would be so much internet rage on the topic if HG was working within those clearly recognizable rights. Certainly there would be some, as one would still need to import SDF:M toys from import shops and online retailers, and HG would be well within their rights to send cease and desist letters to domestic shops importing large quantities (however, by my understanding, it is entirely legal for individuals to buy such items from international import shops, such as HLJ). Of course, if HG hadn't gone out of their way to make enemies of Big West, then it wouldn't be out of the question to see Yamato's SDF:M toys released here, licensed through HG.

Now, it's entirely possible HG believes they own the rights they claim, though unlikely as they made no noise when Macross II or Macross Plus first saw domestic release, despite the fact that they were actively pushing Robotech projects at the time. Of course, some of those projects consisted of derivative works, such as comic stories, even if they went to some effort to discourage people from using DYRL designs, as they, at the time, seemed to recognize that they did not own the rights to those (this was, unless I am misinformed, a large part of why they stopped working with Antarctic Press). The published findings of the aforementioned court ruling, and HG declining to provide proof of ownership or taking any further action at all when confronted with a lawyer all give armchair lawyers plenty to chew on. Afterall, if Tatsunoko did not have the rights to sell, HG can't very well have them no matter what their deal with Tatsunoko was. If that were the case, I could certainly sympathize with HG, but feel they've reacted in a way that does no one any good.

Of course, I believe most of us realize we're just armchair lawyers here. None of us have all the facts. Few of us have any legal background whatsoever. Nearly all of us realize that nothing we say here will have any affect on the situation. Still, this is a forum devoted entirely to a hobby we all share. Of course we're going to talk about it.

[bandit29]

Oh great.. the wall of text, conspiracy theories and legal advise have begun..again..this thread had been quiet for too long All this latest news does is open up old wounds..

There are other ways of course to get Macross stuff. It just sucks that after all these years, the Macross franchise is still a farting mess. HG(the worst of the worst), Toynami, BW, Bandai, Yamato, Sunwards (lol if anyone remembers that) etc. have all had their part in this disaster. And in the end, the fans get screwed...again.

I just wonder why this latest bit of news. BBTS has been selling Yamato Macross toys since the first 1/72 YF-19..why now be "asked" to stop? The Toynami/Bandai deal?..if its still happening.