Banner of the stars 3

[wolfx]

From ANN:

According to Amazon Japan, Banner of the Stars III (Seikai no Senki III) volume 1 will be released in Japan on DVD on August 26th.

And from http://www.abhnation.com/

The release date for Banner of the Stars III (Japan Releases) has been announced. It is slated for 8/26/05. It is going to be an OVA, a little dissapointing, but I look foward to it none-the-less. You can reserve your copy of the DVD from Japanese Amazon here. The fansub will be available for download on this site shortly after it is released, as well as the OST.

So mark your calendars, they day we have all been awaiting is at hand

What can i say? W00ts!! Check out the officer's uniform Lafiel is wearing. Or is that the princess' robe? Sadly its an OVA so its gonna be a slowwww and limited release.

[Graham]

Never heard of Banner of the Stars. What's it about?

Graham

[Effect]

I could never get into this franchise no matter how much and how many times I've tried.

Banner of the Stars is based on a series of scifi novels in Japan. Think galactic warfare, Empires vs. Empires. Yet the story is basicly told from the point of view of an offshoot of humanity as they try to conqurer a federation/alliance of normal humans. The main character is a royal family member Lafiel and the son of normal human ruler of a planet that surrenders his planet to Lafiel's people. As a result the people of that planet feel he betrayed them and sold them out since he was made a nobel as a result. Thouogh they would have been killed if he hadn't, though normal humans are basicly treated like trash I think anyway so one might think death might be perferable by some anyway then to live the way they have had to live. His son is the guy you see in the image and is so far removed from his own kind of species. He's a member on Lafiel's ship when she gets her command. The stories are really about them getting to know each other, grow, maturing in the wake of this galactic war.

Honestly nothing in the show clicks with me. The fact that it's told from the point of view of Lafiel's peopel is the main reason I feel since they are fighting against normal humans. Maybe if it was mix, or if it was normal human vs. human without the alienness of Lafiel's people it might be different. The fact that it isn't kills it for me and I tend to force myself to watch when I want to give it a try and I end up quiting soon after. Reading summaries is more bearable to be honest.

Also I think I remember the war being kinda one sided in favor of Lafiel 's peopel from the start. Kinda think Gundam SEED Destiny in how it's all one sided in favor of ZAFT. I think it's the same feeling here which I can't stand in any show really. I don't mind one side lossing but I can't stand one sidedness in shows of this nature where its all through the eyes of one side and never from the other side.

Edited June 7, 2005 by Effect

[wolfx]

I loved this series. The space battles are awesome and the tactics involved are kinda suspenseful. Very nicely thought out. I haven't seen Legend of Galactic Heroes (LOGH) but people compared BOTS to be a less serious LOGH but with most of the essentials in.

And in contrast with Effect's view, i actually liked the story that revolves around the "bad guys". The Abh are a galactic empire taking over worlds, in a bid to unite the galaxy under the banner of peace. Of course the humans don't like this since they are humans and don't like being ruled over so there are some "rebels" who hate the Abh. The Abh apparently have a vague concept of love, kindness and other emotions. I can't really remmeber but i think logic rules them more than sentiment making them the perfect space-faring race although they do experience love like a human.

And i don't think humans are treated like trash in BOTS. Humans under the Abh rule are like any other respected imperial citizen. Civilised peace loving hippies. People opposed to the Abh rule are the rebels/terrorists.

[Jawjaw]

I tried watching the series as well and feel the same as Effect. I keep waiting for things to pick up but they never did. I found the more recent Starship Operators far more interesting.

[JB0]

I enjoyed Crest of the Stars.

Never seen Banner of the Stars, though.

[chrono]

I REALLY hope that it's not about those two. Their story has been told. The author even said so!

I enjoyed the previous series mainly on the bias that it was a Space Opera and there are DAMNED few of them that are decent(gundam isn't even on the chart) or even animated.

More then abit surprised that people thought that it was told from a side viewpoint(Abh). When it was told quite narrowly from the Jinto's human viewpoint for well over 70% of all the series. But I can understand their view of it though because you only really see the Abh political side of the conflict. The author totally admits that the anime leaves out tons of extra material, and the fact that all of the series are short doesn't leave much for balancing the prespective either. It also doesn't help that the series has greater support in the States then in it's own country.

[Anubis]

A easy thing to forget about CotS/BotS is that the Abh are human as well. They just have a eugenics program to give them the blue hair, light skin, and filter any imperfections in their genes. (Think SEED's coordinators). Thay also have an extra sensory gland for heightened spatial awareness. The royal family also has their ears designed to look like elven ears.

Jinto (the male lead) is from the Hyde system, whose father negotiated his planet's joining the Abh empire. This made him royalty as well, so technically even though he is regular human, he is considered an Abh as well. Any children he has will get the genetic work done.

The Abh were generally quite nice and very well organized. They generally left the surfaces of the worlds in the empire alone, they just sent liasons and managers basically. What the Abh were most interested in was space (the routes and the expanses). Their capital is a giant space station, with a giant shipyard and production ring around the nearby sun.

I loved the series. The characters were awesome, lots of depth, and there was actual stategy involved. The battles were well handled, just overall a great space opera. Lafiel is also hot hot hot. The relationship developed rather nicely as well.

Edited June 7, 2005 by Anubis

[JELEINEN]

I enjoyed the previous series mainly on the bias that it was a Space Opera and there are DAMNED few of them that are decent(gundam isn't even on the chart) or even animated.

Actually, almost all animated SF is space opera.

This show didn't click with me either. I don't think it was bad, but I just walked away from it feeling "meh." For some bizarre reason, people keep wanting to compare this to Legend of the Galactic Heroes, which it actually has very little in common with. I would be willing to give the novels a try, if they were to come out in English.

[chrono]

I enjoyed the previous series mainly on the bias that it was a Space Opera and there are DAMNED few of them that are decent(gundam isn't even on the chart) or even animated.

Actually, almost all animated SF is space opera.

Not really.

For example no Gundam series qualify's as a Space Opera. ZOE, Detonator Orgun, and Legend of the Galactic Heroes do. Voices of a Distant Star most certainly does. Manzinkaiser, Bubblegum Crisis, Trigun, AND GUNNM(though with the Last Order storyline it's beginning to) do not because they are 95% planet based and their story's have no ramificantions for other planets.

Anytime you never leave near Earth orbit you don't qualify as a Space Opera.

Space Opera has larger casts and requires alot more movement then singular nations and planets.

[JELEINEN]

Not really.

For example no Gundam series qualify's as a Space Opera. ZOE, Detonator Orgun, and Legend of the Galactic Heroes do. Voices of a Distant Star most certainly does. Manzinkaiser, Bubblegum Crisis, Trigun, AND GUNNM(though with the Last Order storyline it's beginning to) do not because they are 95% planet based and their story's have no ramificantions for other planets.

Anytime you never leave near Earth orbit you don't qualify as a Space Opera.

Space Opera has larger casts and requires alot more movement then singular nations and planets.

Nope. Space opera is merely an adventure story with science fiction trappings. The term was coined as a play on "saddle opera" (saddle operas were western adventure stories that were published in pulps and were often very formulaic in nature) and was originally a derogatory term used by "real" science fiction magazines like Astounding and Galaxy. It's since lost most of its negative connotations, especially since probably 99% of all media SF is space opera.

[armentage]

Not really.

For example no Gundam series qualify's as a Space Opera. ZOE, Detonator Orgun, and                        Legend of the Galactic Heroes do. Voices of a Distant Star most certainly does. Manzinkaiser, Bubblegum Crisis, Trigun, AND GUNNM(though with the Last Order storyline it's beginning to) do not because they are 95% planet based and their story's have no ramificantions for other planets.

Anytime you never leave near Earth orbit you don't qualify as a Space Opera.

Space Opera has larger casts and requires alot more movement then singular nations and planets.

Nope. Space opera is merely an adventure story with science fiction trappings. The term was coined as a play on "saddle opera" (saddle operas were western adventure stories that were published in pulps and were often very formulaic in nature) and was originally a derogatory term used by "real" science fiction magazines like Astounding and Galaxy. It's since lost most of its negative connotations, especially since probably 99% of all media SF is space opera.

Not neccessarily false...

Lately, the term "space opera" has been co-opted to cover both ideas.

I see this in Sci-Fi novels. Long series, like Peter F Hamilton's Reality Dysfunction are considered Space Opera by many editors. It's a series of 6 HARD sci-fi novels with plenty of advanced technology and biology, plenty of talk of how the new technology has affected society, etc. However, there is PLENTY of adventure, hundreds of characters and setting, and many completely disconnected plot threads that just barely weave together at the end of the story.

I think you could say that, historically, "Space Opera" was good story-telling with a wobbly high-tech setting, while "Sci Fi" was mediocre story-telling with detailed, realistic, and well thought technology and its impact on society.

Thing is, there are more people writing Sci-Fi now a days. More REAL writers, who also happen to have a thing for technology and What-If settings. You have a plethora of Asimov's out there, who have well developed writing skills and can skim the Internet and TV to learn about amazing new scientific advances and theories, and then using Asimov, Clark, and the greats as a template, weave them into interesting stories.

So is the term really derogatory? I'm almost tempted to say that now a days being "merely" Sci-Fi could be more derogatory. Or maybe it just means "short story". Or maybe "Space Opera" means "A long Sci-Fi story"

Sci-Fi is fast becoming a real, legit form of literature. There's enough people out there writing and enough style and substance that it's almost unfair to try to group things together as "Crap" or "Not-Crap".

I don't think I've made a good solid point here, but I'm at work and don't really have time to think this all out clearly!

[JELEINEN]

Reality Dysfunction hard SF? Riiiight. Definitely space opera though; it's very much an adventure story. And your definitions are completely off, as it has nothing to do with the quality of the work, but the content. I do agree that space opera is no longer the derogatory term it once was, but you'll note I said that in my post.

As for more SF being written today, my question is, "where the heck is it?" I go to the SF/Fantasy section of any given book store and I see lots of new fantasy, but little new SF, other than stuff tied to a media work (Star Wars, Star Trek, etc.). The fact of the matter is, SF has always been dependent on magazines for most of its volume. Since the magazines have been steadily dying since the late sixties, the amount of SF being published has decreased right along with. And, SF's attempt to be purely novel-based has been shaky at best.

Likewise, SF is still snubbed by the literati who go out of their way to classify the handful of SF stories they accept as anything but SF (1984 for example). The attempt at making SF high literature (called the New Wave) was still born in the early sixties.

[armentage]

Why do you disagree that Reality Disfunction does not quality as hard SF??

It has plenty of technology thats far beyond our abilities, explored at some depth, as well as the impact of said technology on society. It has entirely new forms of society and personal interaction that revolve around these new technologies.

From Websters:

science fiction

n.

A literary or cinematic genre in which fantasy, typically based on speculative scientific discoveries or developments, environmental changes, space travel, or life on other planets, forms part of the plot or background.

A story in which half of humanity lives in telepathically linked within and to a bio-engineered sentient space-station orbitting and sustaining themselves on space-stations seems to fit that defintion to a T.

When said story also has HUNDREDS of pages devoted to how these uber humans live, die, interact with each other and their bio-engineered enviroments, I consider that hard SF.

"Chewie, lock in the hyperspace coordinates and punch it!" is definately not hard.

[armentage]

While on the topic...

Does Aim for the Top (Gunbuster) count as SF (as opposed to Space Opera?)

[imode]

I loved this series!

OVA or another series, I can't wait for this new stuff

[JELEINEN]

Why do you disagree that Reality Disfunction does not quality as hard SF??

It has plenty of technology thats far beyond our abilities, explored at some depth, as well as the impact of said technology on society. It has entirely new forms of society and personal interaction that revolve around these new technologies.

From Websters:

science fiction

n.

A literary or cinematic genre in which fantasy, typically based on speculative scientific discoveries or developments, environmental changes, space travel, or life on other planets, forms part of the plot or background.

A story in which half of humanity lives in telepathically linked within and to a bio-engineered sentient space-station orbitting and sustaining themselves on space-stations seems to fit that defintion to a T.

When said story also has HUNDREDS of pages devoted to how these uber humans live, die, interact with each other and their bio-engineered enviroments, I consider that hard SF.

"Chewie, lock in the hyperspace coordinates and punch it!" is definately not hard.

The basic premise of Reality Dysfunction completely violates hard SF. Yeah, so he goes into detail on how a group lives; doesn't change the fact that the plot is a bunch of dead people running around possessing everyone.

[JELEINEN]

While on the topic...

Does  Aim for the Top (Gunbuster) count as SF (as opposed to Space Opera?)

Space opera, without a doubt.

Edit: this doesn't mean that I think space opera isn't SF. It's just a kind of SF (adventure stories as opposed to science heavy hard SF or New Wave SF), and I, myself, don't use it as a derogatory term, nor do any others I know of anymore.

Edited June 8, 2005 by JELEINEN

[F-ZeroOne]

I see this in Sci-Fi novels. Long series, like Peter F Hamilton's Reality Dysfunction are considered Space Opera by many editors. It's a series of 6 HARD sci-fi novels with plenty of advanced technology and biology, plenty of talk of how the new technology has affected society, etc. Hy!

Er, being pedantic here: unless theres a difference between the US and UK editions, the "Nights Dawn" trilogy is - well, a trilogy, three volumes.

There was a companion "World of... " book and a collection of short stories set in the same Universe, but that still comes up one short...

[chrono]

Edit: this doesn't mean that I think space opera isn't SF. It's just a kind of SF (adventure stories as opposed to science heavy hard SF or New Wave SF), and I, myself, don't use it as a derogatory term, nor do any others I know of anymore.

Yeah which doesn't make my point wrong at all. Just because it was coined as a negative phrase intially doesn't mean that the term covers 99% of media SF. It's totally subjective and dependant on the shows materials.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Space+Opera

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Science%20Fiction

Just as the Science Fantasy term covers alot of material that has both fantasy & sf leanings. Phase Doubt, the Amber series, the vampire hunter & fairy detective novels by Hamilton, and Grunts by Mary Gentle are examples of such.

[armentage]

Er, being pedantic here: unless theres a difference between the US and UK editions, the "Nights Dawn" trilogy is - well, a trilogy, three volumes.

Sorry, I was thinking of the paperback edition. In the US, each book was cut in half and released as two seperate paperbacks.

[armentage]

While on the topic...

Does  Aim for the Top (Gunbuster) count as SF (as opposed to Space Opera?)

Space opera, without a doubt.

Edit: this doesn't mean that I think space opera isn't SF. It's just a kind of SF (adventure stories as opposed to science heavy hard SF or New Wave SF), and I, myself, don't use it as a derogatory term, nor do any others I know of anymore.

EDIT - I forgot about Gunbuster!

Aim for the Top chronicled war at the speed of light, against enemies too far away to reach without suffering the effects of relativity. We also get to explore the crazy idea of "what if the universe is actually some sort of organism to which we are some kind of invading bacteria". Sure it cuties in bikini pants and ridiculous characters that made no sense - but there was some making-you-think going on there too.

Sorry Jeinlein, but I'm having trouble seeing your point.

What qualifies as hard SF? Stories devoid of plot, character development, or excitement?

By that defination, only the shortest stories would qualify - the stories you find in "Years Best SF" or 1950s SF stories by the old masters.

Hard boiled SF? Would Altered Carbon make it?

The oldest SF was always about how advances in science & technology would change society, but I don't that rules out having a plot & good writing, or at least some sort of filler-material to make it more than just day-dreaming about the future.

Edited June 8, 2005 by armentage

[JELEINEN]

EDIT - I forgot about Gunbuster!

Aim for the Top chronicled war at the speed of light, against enemies too far away to reach without suffering the effects of relativity. We also get to explore the crazy idea of "what if the universe is actually some sort of organism to which we are some kind of invading bacteria". Sure it cuties in bikini pants and ridiculous characters that made no sense - but there was some making-you-think going on there too.

Sorry Jeinlein, but I'm having trouble seeing your point.

What qualifies as hard SF? Stories devoid of plot, character development, or excitement?

By that defination, only the shortest stories would qualify - the stories you find in "Years Best SF" or 1950s SF stories by the old masters.

Hard boiled SF? Would Altered Carbon make it?

The oldest SF was always about how advances in science & technology would change society, but I don't that rules out having a plot & good writing, or at least some sort of filler-material to make it more than just day-dreaming about the future.

Ridiculously large robots, made-up science, and galaxies as living organisms are not hard SF. I love Aim for the Top! to death, but it's definitely space opera (which is why I don't use the term in dirision).

I believe it was Galaxy that used to run an ad in the back talking about the stories you'd find inside. It had two snippets of story side-by-side that were nearly identical, except in one the character rode a horse and had a six-shooter. In the other, the character rode a rocket and had a ray-gun. The latter was space opera (the ad even points this out) and the magazine assured its readers that they wouldn't find anything like published by them.

Can hard SF stories have strong stories and even action and excitement? Absolutely. Is there a lot of hard SF that is sorely lacking in these elements? Definitely (Sturgeon's Law and all that). Is there a lot of space opera that has the same problems as hard SF when it comes to story or characterization? Very much so. All of that is entirely besides the point. What defines hard SF is its trueness to scientific fact (yes, a gimme or two is usually accepted; FTL being the most common), while space opera is adventure stories that use the same trappings, but without paying attention to the actual science behind them. Neither definition is a judgement of the story involved.

For reading on the subject, I recommend David Hartwell's works, especially the excellent Age of Wonders.

[JELEINEN]

Edit: this doesn't mean that I think space opera isn't SF.  It's just a kind of SF (adventure stories as opposed to science heavy hard SF or New Wave SF), and I, myself, don't use it as a derogatory term, nor do any others I know of anymore.

Yeah which doesn't make my point wrong at all. Just because it was coined as a negative phrase intially doesn't mean that the term covers 99% of media SF. It's totally subjective and dependant on the shows materials.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Space+Opera

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Science%20Fiction

Just as the Science Fantasy term covers alot of material that has both fantasy & sf leanings. Phase Doubt, the Amber series, the vampire hunter & fairy detective novels by Hamilton, and Grunts by Mary Gentle are examples of such.

Considering that they didn't even get the etymology of the word right, I think it's safe to say that we can ignore dictionary.com's imput on the matter.

Anyway, I digress. We've really derailed the thread. Please continue to talk about Banner/Crest of the Stars.

Edited June 8, 2005 by JELEINEN

[Mercurial Morpheus]

I've seen most of Crest of the Stars, and really enjoyed it. I intend to see Banner I and II so that I can watch this.

[F-ZeroOne]

Er, being pedantic here: unless theres a difference between the US and UK editions, the "Nights Dawn" trilogy is - well, a trilogy, three volumes.

Sorry, I was thinking of the paperback edition. In the US, each book was cut in half and released as two seperate paperbacks.

Boy, you do some weird things to books in the US... (the cover blurb for Terry Pratchetts "Lords & Ladies" which somehow substituted an American football team for a Morris Dancing troupe is perhaps my favourite, though!)

[Effect]

Curious, any more word on this?

[wolfx]

Curious, any more word on this?

312319[/snapback]

Apparently its out in japan soonish....this weekend?

[chrono]

Yes it's to be out VERY soon.....

... as in 7-22!!! At least the dvd-box is according to NewType 7-2005. If the adverts right it looks like it's going to go with established characters. A good and "bad thing" in my view.

[chrono]

OK!

Did a little digging around and found a trailer for the OVA. It's streaming so it's pretty sad and small.

http://www.sunrise-inc.co.jp/seikai/st_frame.html

Edited July 29, 2005 by chrono

[renegadeleader1]

dunno about you guys but don't the abh remind you of Imperial Japan just before WWII flared up when they were destroying the chinese?

[wolfx]

Just saw it. Just found out its only 2 episodes long, and is sort of an interlude for future series.....

No cool space battles this time around. Jinto returns to Hyde system to reclaim his homeland but finds himself less than welcome. The 2 episodes revolve around Jinto's dillemma to stay on Hyde or go with Lafiel. Guess what he chooses.

The lovey doveyness of the whole thing might just prove annoying to some, but really, i think i'm in love with Lafiel. So sue me for gushing.....LAFIELLL!!!!!!

[Anubis]

More Lafiel can only be a good thing.

[Zentrandude]

nah more spoor

[Anubis]

The ANBU version is out!

97% completed. Good seeds. I'll watch it tonight.