Did Zentradis boycott DYRL?

[Keith]

Sometimes I just feel the need to say, "its just a tv show, folks, its not life or death!"

Indeed. But considering you yourself are currently at a forum which is centered around discussing said TV show, you too have to admit it's worth discussion.

[bsu legato]

I'll concede that there is indeed enough open-endedness in it's inception for DYRL to have "not" been originally intended as a movie within the continuity, as long as it's acknowledged that there's just as much for it to have been.

but that doesn't change that DYRL...has never been called anything "but" a movie within the continuty, irregardless of being labelless for 10 years.

Which is it? I like how you pretend to be reasonable with the first quote, then backtrack and reassert your belief that it's in fact been a docu-drama since '84.

[Duke Togo]

No, I don't, and no, I won't. The fact is they made it because it would make money. If Macross wasn't popular, it would not have been made. Its an adaptation of a tv show, and nothing more.

[Agent ONE]

I'll concede that there is indeed enough open-endedness in it's inception for DYRL to have "not" been originally intended as a movie within the continuity, as long as it's acknowledged that there's just as much for it to have been.

but that doesn't change that DYRL...has never been called anything "but" a movie within the continuty, irregardless of being labelless for 10 years.

Which is it? I like how you pretend to be reasonable with the first quote, then backtrack and reassert your belief that it's in fact been a docu-drama since '84.

Hey, I just saw Keith on the news.

[Keith]

I'll concede that there is indeed enough open-endedness in it's inception for DYRL to have "not" been originally intended as a movie within the continuity, as long as it's acknowledged that there's just as much for it to have been.

but that doesn't change that DYRL...has never been called anything "but" a movie within the continuty, irregardless of being labelless for 10 years.

Which is it? I like how you pretend to be reasonable with the first quote, then backtrack and reassert your belief that it's in fact been a docu-drama since '84.

I'm reasonable all around. As I said, if you want to believe otherwise, go right on ahead. But Studio support for it now, as well as the nature of the movie's design perfectly support that it could just as easily always have been intended to be a movie within the continutiy. There was never a statement in either direction until 94. But "I feel" the fact that they do acknowledge it as a movie within justifies its existence as always haveing been so.

No, I don't, and no, I won't. The fact is they made it because it would make money. If Macross wasn't popular, it would not have been made. Its an adaptation of a tv show, and nothing more.

If the effort wasn't put in to make it a good story, it wouldn't make money either. Financial backing does play a major role in production, but without the quality put into the production, it won't go very far, let alone 20 years in popularity. By the same token, merchandising from such a popular series woudln't be there if there wasn't a demand for it either.

And "agentone," just what the frakk is the stick up your ass about anyway? Irregardless of the dissagreement, I haven't thrown slander at anyone else, and I don't appreciate it going my way either. You can dissagree with someone without being a complete & total a-hole, try it sometime.

Edited October 1, 2003 by Keith

[bsu legato]

I'm reasonable all around.

Your replies in this and many other threads say otherwise, but this is irrelevant so we'll ignore this little aside.

as well as the nature of the movie's design perfectly support that it could just as easily always have been intended to be a movie within the continutiy

The movie's design has been discussed, and the facelift that most of the designs got for DYRL in no way support your "docu-drama" thesis. One could just as easily argue that they were just "prettied up" for the theatrical release. Likewise, the film's structure does not prove anything, but Sundown has already adressed this at length.

But "I feel" the fact that they do acknowledge it as a movie within justifies its existence as always haveing been so

"Feelings" on this matter are completely subjective in this case, and therefore shouldn't be used to support your argument.

I haven't thrown slander at anyone else, and I don't appreciate it going my way either

True, but AgentOne didn't "slander" you either. And you did invite somebody to "bite your shiny metal ass" a page ago, so don't get too defensive. Nobody was acting hostile before that.

[Agent ONE]

...

And "agentone," just what the frakk is the stick up your ass about anyway? Irregardless of the dissagreement, I haven't thrown slander at anyone else, and I don't appreciate it going my way either. You can dissagree with someone without being a complete & total a-hole, try it sometime.

1.) Your agreements are not logical so you deserve it.

2.) You've been throwing your opinions of our favorite entertainment in our faces and being rude about it for years.

3.) No one has ever accused me of being nice. I am not running a popularity contest. I love myself enough for all of us. I don't need anymore love.

4.) It is all in good fun, and I am sorry if I offend you. That is why I PMd you... I wanted to make sure WHEN I go too far I will appologise.

[JsARCLIGHT]

In the name of ending this inaneness, I'll concede that there is indeed enough open-endedness in it's inception for DYRL to have "not" been originally intended as a movie within the continuity, as long as it's acknowledged that there's just as much for it to have been.

With the revealations of all the evidence and the seeming lack of anyone before 1994 stating DYRL's status I will agree with this.

Technically we are both right and in a sense we always were in this debate. The void of classification from the creators allows both "it was not a movie within a movie before 1994 because no one specifically said it was" and the "it is a movie within a movie before 1994 because no one specifically said it wasn't" to be sort of true no matter what their intentions where.

I am willing to put this debate to rest with the mutual agreement that neither of us really knows what was intended between 1984 and 1994 and the odds of us finding it are slim without tracking down Kawamori himself and sitting on him til he answers. In light of these facts presented I think this "gap" allows us both to be "right", meaning end of argument for now until more information from the time frame before 1994 can be found.

I'm still getting those liner notes translated and will post them, maybee in a new thread as I'm still interested in what they say.

[Sundown]

The structure of DYRL is so that all events prior the first scene, and after the last scene, require foreknowledge of the series events to fully understand. In that, it is intentionally designed as a re-dramatization, just as any other big budget historical docu-drama.

Agreed.

My long since burried point in bringing up Flash Back 2012 was to prove that despite the flasher version of events in DYRL, by 1987 Studio Nue clearly decided that the TV series version of events was the dominant version of events, though they weren't abandoning DYRL either. This in itself is evidence to provide support for the later claim that they decided DYRL is a movie within the series. And again, is it required for them to write it on a box inorder for it be so? No. Just as it's not necessary for them to assume we all realize major animation mistakes, such as the nose lasers, are just that, animnation mistakes. And yes, the official DYRL of the Macross continuity does have additional scenes, but at the same time, it is the same movie.

Agreed.

But 2012 does not clearly indicate that DYRL *is* a movie within the fiction in '84... even in hindsight. It only points to the fact that Studio Nue didn't want to abandon both. And it actually appears more as if they were simply undecided/or didn't care that much about how DYRL would fit exactly into the SDF continuity or how the inconsistencies between the two would be resolved. It just didn't matter that much at the time.

You can accuse me of lack of facts all you like, but that doesn't change that DYRL "is" a movie within the continuity, is structured in a way that it easily fits this description, has never been called anything "but" a movie within the continuty, irregardless of being labelless for 10 years.  No facts have been supplied which identify it as anything else, the creative scre behind it support their stance. You can believe whatever you want, but that doesn't change what it is.

NO ONE has argued that DYRL isn't now a movie within the continuity. That's a straw man argument. The real argument has been "What exactly was DYRL from 1984 to 1993 in the creators' eyes? Harping on what the creators have said in 94 does not strengthen your original claim of what you believe it to be in 84.

DYRL *has* been called something else other than a movie prior to 1994, by Kawamori himself. It's been called something "just as real as SDF, the story in movie length form", without reference to it being a fictitious movie within the canon itself.

No one is debating what DYRL is now. No one is debating whether or not all the existing footage can be retconned or interpreted to fit with the movie within the continuity explaination.

The debate is what was DYRL's original intent from 1984 to 1994. The facts do not support conclusively that it was originally intended to be a movie within the SDF timeline.

The evidence simply does not adequately support the boldness of the claims. They do allow for a remote possibility of such a claim being true, and they do allow for fan/creator reinterpretation and retcon. But they are by no means, conclusive support that such has always been the creator's explicit vision.

In fact, in regards to DYRL, the circumstantial evidence would tend to weigh against your claim. Because you have still yet to address why Kawamori did not make his supposed intent clear when he could have, even when given the opportunity many times... instead choosing to send fans into confusion for some 10 years. If he had known what DYRL really was, he was sure actively avoidant about sharing it with its viewers. Why?

The argument that DYRL was always intended as a movie in the timeline has very little support, until this question is addressed adequately. Saying that he didn't have to clarify simply avoids the question, which still lingers and continues to cast legitimate doubt on your stance. Without providing convincing counter arguments, one only makes vague excuses.

Excuses don't form the basis of a coherent defense, especially not of something that should be so plain to anyone who's seen the works in question. And excuses don't form the backbone of a defense for stunningly bold claims.

-Al

[bsu legato]

*wipes away a tear*

That was beautiful, Sundown.

[ewilen]

DYRL *has* been called something else other than a movie prior to 1994, by Kawamori himself. It's been called something "just as real as SDF, the story in movie length form", without reference to it being a fictitious movie within the canon itself.

Do you know the date of this quote? I agree that it weighs strongly against the idea that Kawamori was thinking of the MWAM idea at the time.

By the way, the quote in which Kawamori said "the real Macross is out there, somewhere", is from Animerica, in an interview. Find it here. The full exchange is:

It seems many American fans tend to thing of the Macross movie as the "official" Macross continuity. What's your opinion?

Consider real histroy. Many different stories have been created based on the same historical facts, haven't they? For example, there are many stories about World War II. It's the same thing with Macross. The real Macross is out there, somewhere. If I tell the story in the length of a TV series, it looks one way, and if I tell it as a movie-length story, it's organized another way.

The funny thing is, the interview appears in a 1995 issue of Animerica (Vol. 3, No. 1), after the release of Macross Plus, and thus after the MWAM idea had been officially published. So even at that time, Kawamori hadn't completely endorsed SDF Macross as a literal version of the "real" events, or completely rejected DYRL's version. Although in doing so, he by no means ruled out the idea of DYRL being a MWAM. In other words, Kawamori can be saying

• There is a "real" Space War I.
  
• Super Dimensional Fortress Macross is one account of SW1, but it may not be perfectly accurate (if such a concept is allowed).
  
• DYRL is another account of SW1, also not perfectly accurate.
  
• DYRL is also a movie made after SW1.
  

Edited October 2, 2003 by ewilen

[ewilen]

Still more weight of evidence to show how anime fans' perceptions of the Macross chronology changed when Macross Plus was released. In particular, Egan Loo again.

1. 1993.8.24

Egan writes:

The most important thing to note is that there are at least three different

chronologies when you deal with Macross and its various incarnations:

1) The original TV series

2) The movie and the Macross II OAV series

3) The Robotech series

Leaving aside Robotech, the TV series and Movies/OAVs are explained as being two separate chronologies.

2. 1993.12.12

The film, the Flashback OAV, and the Macross II OAVs essentially occur in the same timeline. The TV series exists in another timeline.

Egan simply views the various Macross productions in terms of alternate timelines, with no hint of a "movie within a movie". One can hypothesize that this reflects the dominant interpretation among anime cognoscenti of the time, whether or not they had any official pronouncements to back them up.

3. 1994.9.26

Mentioned & linked earlier, this is Egan's Macross Chronology (possibly one of the earliest drafts), incorporating information from recent Japanese anime magazines. (He lists references at the end of his article.) The MWAM idea is now in full bloom.

I just want to make clear that Egan Loo, arguably the foremost Macross expert and continuity maven in the English-speaking world today, and certainly a very well-informed fan back in 1993-94, did not have a hint of a clue about the MWAM idea until Macross Plus was released.

With that, I'm done with research into what fans were thinking. I know that pretty much everyone was satisfied already, and I apologize if this has been tedious. Anyway, time to move on to the primary sources, with many thanks to TheLoneWolf and JsArclight. I will try to do scans from what seem like important parts of TIA #11 over the next few days.

[Duke Togo]

There would be no reason to have to explain DYRL? if they didn't get some moron coming out and saying, "but I don't get it, why are they different?" Once again, the answer is simple: DYRL? is a movie adaptation made because of the TV series popularity, and they stood to make alot of money on it. No great secrets, plot twists, or surprises there. Just the facts, ma'am.

But no, you have to have your trekkie types who can't live with such a simple answer. So this whole mess is brought up.

Edited October 2, 2003 by Duke Togo

[Sundown]

DYRL *has* been called something else other than a movie prior to 1994, by Kawamori himself. It's been called something "just as real as SDF, the story in movie length form", without reference to it being a fictitious movie within the canon itself.

Do you know the date of this quote? I agree that it weighs strongly against the idea that Kawamori was thinking of the MWAM idea at the time.

By the way, the quote in which Kawamori said "the real Macross is out there, somewhere", is from Animerica, in an interview. Find it here. The full exchange is:

It seems many American fans tend to thing of the Macross movie as the "official" Macross continuity. What's your opinion?

Consider real histroy. Many different stories have been created based on the same historical facts, haven't they? For example, there are many stories about World War II. It's the same thing with Macross. The real Macross is out there, somewhere. If I tell the story in the length of a TV series, it looks one way, and if I tell it as a movie-length story, it's organized another way.

You know what... my quote is actually a badly misphrased version of your actual quote. I must have remembered it wrong, but the idea is the same. In your quote, Kawamori seems to talk of DYRL and SDF as being retellings of the same story... with a (fictitious) "real" continuity out there somewhere. That puts DYRL and SDF on the same level, as opposed to "one retelling of the story within another retelling of the story" that it really is now. This kind of goes against the MWAM idea from the get go.

-Al

[TheLoneWolf]

For the interested parties, I flipped through the Flashback 2012 artbook and there wasn't much to be found. Just a lot of screencaps with 2-3 line descriptions, a few pages of line art, and a few more pages with lyrics to Minmay's music. However, there were some interviews with Studio Nue, most importantly with Kawamori. Here's the first page of Kawamori's interview. This book is copyright dated 1987. Again, if anyone needs higher res images, lmk.

Part 1 of the interview.

[TheLoneWolf]

Part 2.

[TheLoneWolf]

Part 3. Note that you can see the word "TV" appears several times in the above pic, could mean nothing or everything.

[Keith]

In the name of ending this inaneness, I'll concede that there is indeed enough open-endedness in it's inception for DYRL to have "not" been originally intended as a movie within the continuity, as long as it's acknowledged that there's just as much for it to have been.

With the revealations of all the evidence and the seeming lack of anyone before 1994 stating DYRL's status I will agree with this.

Technically we are both right and in a sense we always were in this debate. The void of classification from the creators allows both "it was not a movie within a movie before 1994 because no one specifically said it was" and the "it is a movie within a movie before 1994 because no one specifically said it wasn't" to be sort of true no matter what their intentions where.

I am willing to put this debate to rest with the mutual agreement that neither of us really knows what was intended between 1984 and 1994 and the odds of us finding it are slim without tracking down Kawamori himself and sitting on him til he answers. In light of these facts presented I think this "gap" allows us both to be "right", meaning end of argument for now until more information from the time frame before 1994 can be found.

I'm still getting those liner notes translated and will post them, maybee in a new thread as I'm still interested in what they say.

Leaving aside Robotech, the TV series and Movies/OAVs are explained as being two separate chronologies.

That mess has more to do with the Macross II production team. I believe Kawamori's shluffing it off into AU sufficiently closes that topic.

Agreed.

agent one:

1.) Your agreements are not logical so you deserve it.

2.) You've been throwing your opinions of our favorite entertainment in our faces and being rude about it for years.

3.) No one has ever accused me of being nice. I am not running a popularity contest. I love myself enough for all of us. I don't need anymore love.

4.) It is all in good fun, and I am sorry if I offend you. That is why I PMd you... I wanted to make sure WHEN I go too far I will appologise.

1.My agreements or arguments? My arguments are very logical based on the current state of the continuity, the structure of the film itself, and the fact that the film has never been called anything otherwise.

2.???? I've never been rude, not unless you posted as a robotech fan at AFM.

3.And yet there's a certain amount of etiquette to follow when participating in a debate. Unless you're running for California governor, always stick with the topic ahead of petty personal attacks.

4.You shouldn't need anyone to tell you when you're going too far. Chances are, if you think you are, you are.

[Keith]

In the name of ending this inaneness, I'll concede that there is indeed enough open-endedness in it's inception for DYRL to have "not" been originally intended as a movie within the continuity, as long as it's acknowledged that there's just as much for it to have been.

With the revealations of all the evidence and the seeming lack of anyone before 1994 stating DYRL's status I will agree with this.

Technically we are both right and in a sense we always were in this debate. The void of classification from the creators allows both "it was not a movie within a movie before 1994 because no one specifically said it was" and the "it is a movie within a movie before 1994 because no one specifically said it wasn't" to be sort of true no matter what their intentions where.

I am willing to put this debate to rest with the mutual agreement that neither of us really knows what was intended between 1984 and 1994 and the odds of us finding it are slim without tracking down Kawamori himself and sitting on him til he answers. In light of these facts presented I think this "gap" allows us both to be "right", meaning end of argument for now until more information from the time frame before 1994 can be found.

I'm still getting those liner notes translated and will post them, maybee in a new thread as I'm still interested in what they say.

Agreed.

agent one:

1.) Your agreements are not logical so you deserve it.

2.) You've been throwing your opinions of our favorite entertainment in our faces and being rude about it for years.

3.) No one has ever accused me of being nice. I am not running a popularity contest. I love myself enough for all of us. I don't need anymore love.

4.) It is all in good fun, and I am sorry if I offend you. That is why I PMd you... I wanted to make sure WHEN I go too far I will appologise.

1.My agreements or arguments? My arguments are very logical based on the current state of the continuity, the structure of the film itself, and the fact that the film has never been called anything otherwise.

2.???? I've never been rude, not unless you posted as a robotech fan at AFM.

3.And yet there's a certain amount of etiquette to follow when participating in a debate. Unless you're running for California governor, always stick with the topic ahead of petty personal attacks.

4.You shouldn't need anyone to tell you when you're going too far. Chances are, if you think you are, you are.

Leaving aside Robotech, the TV series and Movies/OAVs are explained as being two separate chronologies.

That mess has more to do with the producers of Macross II than anything. Kawamori shluffing it off into AU rectifies that matter.

[Roy Focker]

Okay if anyone has any translation of something new feel free to post it in new topic. I'm not bored of this debate but bored with this side one.