Did Zentradis boycott DYRL?

[Lightning]

coulda swore it was spelled Flashback 2012.....oh well...

[CAG]

ewilen Posted on Sep 28 2003, 07:18 PM

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(a) They probably did, since it's strongly implied, if not stated, that they are on the Macross when Hikaru has to writing that hardest of letters to write in the TV episode following his death.

But they're just as good as cannon fodder....they could have bought it when Kamjin rampaged through the ship. 18,000 civillians were killed during the war (or 'reduced by attrition').

[Lightning]

But they're just as good as cannon fodder....they could have bought it when Kamjin rampaged through the ship. 18,000 civillians were killed during the war (or 'reduced by attrition').

dont u mean "Sucked out of an airlock and/or stomped on by various mecha"? lol

[TheLoneWolf]

Well, here are the linear notes from the 1987 Flashback laserdisc, submitted amicus curie I didn't scan the other side, as all it contained were the lyrics for Minmay's songs.

For those who haven't been following the thread, Keith has claimed:

DYRL was officially acknowledged as a movie within the continuity by Studio Nue in 1987 when Flash Back 2012 came out (3 years later, not 10), though there was no official continuity released until 1993-4. Besides which, who are you or anyone else to say what was specifically intended for the film?

However, Keith has failed to submit any sort of documented proof, only relying on heresay and stating "look at the animation." IMO, animation is an unreliable source of information as it is prone to errors (ie: Roy and Hikaru's color-changing heatshields in DYRL, etc). So here's some written proof, dated 1987. Honestly, I can't say for sure if Kawamori had planned for DYRL to be a movie with Macross from the start, or if he decided to do so in 1994 (for which we do have plenty of documentation). Hopefully these linear notes can shed some light on the matter.

Oh yeah, I'll also be scanning the linear notes from the 1992 DYRL: Perfect Edition laserdisc linear notes. Since this version of DYRL was the first to incorporate the Flashback footage in the end, there might be some information that could vindicate Keith's statement. Look for these later. Can't you tell I just love these uber-otaku debates.

Edit: JsARLIGHT, if you need more clarity, I can send you the original uncompressed scan. I didn't post it since it's a couple of megabytes.

Edited September 29, 2003 by TheLoneWolf

[Keith]

You guys, I freakin' swear. The show's themselves are "the" most solid piece of continuity you can get, assuming you pay attention & understand (not withstadning petty things such as "animation errors," especially since we're not contending with Anime Friend in any production other than the TV series).

The animation is where the central story that the writers are telling is located. And the central story in FB 2012 reflects that DYRL was integrated into the mainline continuity, and doesn't exist unto itself. It reflects that the Macross used in it wasn't a simple re-design done for DYRL, but also exists in the TV series continuity as well.

Considering that nothing in the "quoted" text has contradicted anything I've said stands more "for" my credibility than anything even resembling an argument against it. You want quotes? You want evidence? You want proof? You have the ability to drag yourself over to the Macross Compendium & read it as I have. You have the ability to sit down in front of the TV and watch all released material, as I have.

As I've stated, considering Nue has officially come out & said that DYRL "is" part of the TV series continutiy, not to mention that they've "never" said anything to contradict that, be it when the movie was releaed, or at any other point in time, there is zero basis for any such argument.

To put it bluntly, I don't need to waste my time digging up proof to support well known facts that are available to anyone. "YOU" however do need evidence if you're going to try & contradict it.

I've been at this longer than most of you guys have been Macross fans, I've argued these & many issues more times than I care to count. If you choose not to believe me, that's one thing, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm stating facts which are well known & available to anyone who cares to pay attention to them.

[CAG]

Keith Posted on Sep 28 2003, 11:36 PM

I've been at this longer than most of you guys have been Macross fans, I've argued these & many issues more times than I care to count. If you choose not to believe me, that's one thing, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm stating facts which are well known & available to anyone who cares to pay attention to them.

That's an appeal to authority fallacy isn't it? Your proof should be well documented and easy to find then. Just post it once, and it'll be here ready to be linked to whenever its needed...(or should exist elsewhere ready to be linked to...)

And the central story in FB 2012 reflects that DYRL was integrated into the mainline continuity,

If I understand correctly, noone's arguing that DYRL wasn't integrated into the mainline continuity, the crux of the question is what was its original intent?

Lightning 06 Posted on Sep 28 2003, 08:51 PM

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dont u mean "Sucked out of an airlock and/or stomped on by various mecha"? lol 

Can't say that officially....bad for morale and all. Though maybe one of Kak's Kin got squished sitting at that same steakhouse

[Keith]

Sure, as soon as all bandwidth limitatins & video compression have advanced to the point where I can post up specific video clips in lavish animation for all to observe, I'll gladly post up proof. Until then, get off your asses & sit in front of your own TV's.

When all is said & done, no matter how some try to argue, I stand as being correct!

[JB0]

Why is Kakizaki such a popular cannon fodder ?

He has a name.

Everyone COULD say "the 3th brownie to bite it in episode 17", but Kakizaki is far easier.

[Phyrox]

I don't think I've read a more self-righteous, yet poorly argued case in all my time at MW...

Not to say you are necessarily wrong. Perhaps they intended ALL ALONG for DYRL to be a "movie in the continuity," but that goes against everything I have ever heard. Besides pointing to animation consistances which seem to circumstantially support your view, do you have anything else?

say...a press release stating that "the upcomming Macross movie is actually supposed to represent a 'fictionalized retelling' of Space War I within the Macross universe itself." Or something that concrete?

Or is it really all based on the premise that since FB2012 didn't use DYRL designs the rest all falls into place?

[JsARCLIGHT]

Keith, are we calling you a liar? Have any of us said that there is no chance in hell of you being right? NO. We are asking for you to proove your stance with fact, something that other members are willing to do. If you proove to us that your summation is correct, that DYRL since day one has been scripted to be a movie inside the timeline of a then unwritten future extension of macross, we will believe you. But not without proof. If you have been studying Macross for as long as you say then coming up with these materials should take you ten minutes. Not providing any proof is hurting you more than anything. Think about it, let's say I had a theory that the universe revolved around Mia Farrow... if I present no evidence to the point and just keep bleating on and on that people should "watch the movies as they explain all" no one would take me seriously., even if it was considered to be "general knowledge" in the Mia Farrow fanboy society.

There is just so much stuff in Macross and other creative materials like it that people just assume things about and those assumptions somehow become "fact". All I and the other members caught up in this are asking is that you (or someone else) show us the interview, liner note, article or doccument that states your point. I'm getting a guy in my office to translate the liner notes Lone Wolf posted above and I'll post his translation here. If anyone thinks I'll try to pull some trick and "mistranslate" the doccument (as has been claimed here before on other things) I'll gladly pay out of my own pocket to take that and all the other liner notes to a third party translation service to be done.

(I know I said above that I had posted my last in this thread, but that was before people started ponying up facts and proof... seeing as I was asking for that all along it would remiss of me to clam up now.)

[EXO]

Not to say you are necessarily wrong. Perhaps they intended ALL ALONG for DYRL to be a "movie in the continuity," but that goes against everything I have ever heard. Besides pointing to animation consistances which seem to circumstantially support your view, do you have anything else?

I don't think anyone here is trying to prove Keith wrong. I've gone thru the thread and tried to make sure that I had the argument correctly. Aside from the original post about how the Zentradi should have boycotted DYRL?. The question came up whether the movie within a movie concept was originally concieved at the time DYRL? was made. That's the argument right?

I don't really see the point of going in a thread as saying 'I have all the answers but if you guys want them, go find them yourself'. If that's the case, why even enter the discussion and make yourself sick with a buch of 'noobies'. It's cases like this that makes a simple question into fanboy banter.

Considering that nothing in the "quoted" text has contradicted anything I've said stands more "for" my credibility than anything even resembling an argument against it.

As you can see, the movie and Macross II have been bumped to form

  a so-called parallel world.

bump ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bmp)

v. bumped, bump·ing, bumps

v. tr.

To strike or collide with.

To cause to knock against an obstacle.

To knock to a new position; shift:

To shake up and down; jolt:

The fact that someone has argued Macross longer than I have doesn't mean they have been watching it more or less than me.

If anyone else could do me the favor, and I have looked for myself, and show me where in the compendium it says that DYRL? was originally conceived as a movie within a movie, I would greatly appreciate.

Thank you...

[ewilen]

Not just that, but if DYRL wasn't originally conceived as a movie-within-a-movie, it'd be helpful to know when the creators decided to retroactively use that explanation for the sake of continuity ("retcon" in fanboy-speak). Was it when they did FB 2012, or M7, or some other time?

JsArclight--thanks for getting that translation done.

[bsu legato]

Sure, as soon as all bandwidth limitatins & video compression have advanced to the point where I can post up specific video clips in lavish animation for all to observe, I'll gladly post up proof. Until then, get off your asses & sit in front of your own TV's.

Most of us have the DVD, so why not just give us a time/frame reference? Is there some hidden meaning in the video for "Angel Paints" that we've been missing that proves the "DYRL as a movie" theory? And you keep mentioning the rebuilt Macross seen in FB2012, but that does not indicate what it originally started out like. If there was footage of them removing the remains of the aircraft carriers or something, that might give credence to your argument. As I've said before (and which you've conveniently ignored) FB2012 seems to give equal weight to both SDF and DYRL footage.

As for your "I've been in this longer than you n00bs" argument, I'd suggest that you should know better than to pull that, but you obviously don't.

Edited September 29, 2003 by bsu legato

[ewilen]

I don't know if this helps, but the earliest reference I can find by Egan Loo to the "movie within a movie" concept is this Usenet article dating from September, 1994. He gives a translation of a chronology which appeared in a recent Newtype magazine issue and adds:

This timeline follows the original TV series closely with the exception of Admiral Grobal's appointment in 2014.

Neither the original movie nor Macross II's events are apparently part of this timeline and there is no mention of Macross II's frequent Centrady attacks.

He also provides these references:

Reference:

"History of Macross," Entertainment Magazine, October 1994, Bandai Visual

"Macross History," Newtype, October 1994, Kadokawa Shoten

"Macross Plus World Chronology," Macross Plus Promotional Flyer, July 1994,

Big West/Macross Plus Production Committee

[Agent ONE]

Keith doesn't want to post anything because everything he is referncing is M7 stuff, which of course was created after it was decided that DYRL was a "Movie within the Macross fictional universe."

Therefore Keith, your task is to post proof that DYRL was intended to be a "Movie within the Macross fictional universe," and it has to be dated 1984!

Thus far, your agurments =

[Agent ONE]

I don't know if this helps, but the earliest reference I can find by Egan Loo to the "movie within a movie" concept is this Usenet article dating from September, 1994. He gives a translation of a chronology which appeared in a recent Newtype magazine issue and adds:

...

Yeah, exactly. 10 years after DYRL was created.

[bsu legato]

Since I don't post on any other anime boards, I have to wonder: how do other franchises deal with the movie versions of TV shows? Is the Escaflowne film considered a "fable" in their fictional world? How about the original Gundam films? Are they an HBO miniseries, filmed in UC 0110?

Or maybe they just don't think it's worth fighting about. <_<

[Abombz!!]

Since I don't post on any other anime boards, I have to wonder: how do other franchises deal with the movie versions of TV shows? Is the Escaflowne film considered a "fable" in their fictional world? How about the original Gundam films? Are they an HBO miniseries, filmed in UC 0110?

Or maybe they just don't think it's worth fighting about.

For whats worth.... the Esca movie is an alternate version of the TV series.

The Gundam movies.... are simply compressed versions of the TV series, nothing to them, the TV is still regarded as more canon then the movies, because the story line is usually more complete, as not all facts were in the movie. But then again... to really get the canon, I would suggest you watch both the series and the movie.

Now... if you mean Gundam Wing and Endless waltz.... thats a whole other issue. <_<

LOL... this thread is tons of fun... most ppl here seem to be repeating themselves over and over again.

[EXO]

LOL... this thread is tons of fun... most ppl here seem to be repeating themselves over and over again.

and for that reason... I'm bowing out...

adios amoebas...

(and I meant that nicely)

[Lightning]

not to stir up anything again, but all FB 2012 is is a bunch of the TV and DYRL stuff put together, so therefore it doesnt really support anything continuity wise...

EDIT: except for the Megaroad-01 and the VF-4s showing up...

Edited September 29, 2003 by Lightning 06

[Agent ONE]

not to stir up anything again, but all FB 2012 is is a bunch of the TV and DYRL stuff put together, so therefore it doesnt really support anything continuity wise...

EDIT: except for the Megaroad-01 and the VF-4s showing up...

and the fact that the Megaroad left Earth with Minmay, Hikaru, and Misa.

[ewilen]

Okay, more Google Groups work. Everything points to the "movie within a movie" being a retcon introduced to fans in 1994, when Macross Plus appeared. I will provide links, key quotes where necessary, and commentary. Unfortunately, it will be a bit disorganized since I'm just going to quote stuff in the order I found it.

1. http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&...ra.ryutai.co.jp

1994.8.25 Peter Evans describes "roars of laughter" at some anime event (probably Anime Expo) in 1994 when people saw the "movie within a movie" explanation in a showing of Macross Plus. This was obviously the first time that American fans, at least, became aware of this retcon.

2. http://groups.google.com/groups?q=author:p...ai.co.jp&rnum=1

1994.10.20 Another reference to "the event" and the reaction to the retcon.

3. http://groups.google.com/groups?q=author:a...iwan.com&rnum=2

Same thread, reference to the "new integration of Macross '84 into the series timeline" and the relegation of Mac II to an alternate universe.

4. http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&...Ez%40netcom.com

1994.10.8 Same thread, Keith Rhee writes:

AMNEWTZ1@ulkyvm.louisville.edu writes:

>So, Macross II isn't considered part of the TV series continuity?

  Nope.  It follows the events of the movie timeline, and this was back

  when the movie timeline wasn't declared "alternate" yet.

  Now that the TV timeline has been made official to pave way for the

  new series (Macross Plus and Macross 7), the movie timeline has been

  bumped to become an alternate universe.

  See it this way.  We Real Lifers look at Macross TV and say,

  "Cool, a SF anime story."

  People in the Macross TV universe look at Macross the movie and say,

  "Wow, a movie about our experiences in the war."  And in a similar

  fashion, they'd look upon Macross II and say it's another installment

  to the (to them) fictitious timeline.

  To put it short, Macross TV is fiction to us, Macross movie/Macross II

  is fiction to the Macross TV people.  Get it? ^_-

Notice that he is talking about a recent retcon for the sake of incorporating M+ and M7. Keith Rhee repeats this in a FAQ he posted on 1994.10.8. Link here.

5. http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&...40152.rahul.net

Ronnie Kwong comments on the new continuity introduced with M+.

6. http://groups.google.com/groups?q=author:a...iwan.com&rnum=1

For the sake of contrast, this post from 1993.12.13 by Roderick Lee (a.k.a. "Professional Agitator") uses the "old" version of the timeline(s), with SDF: Macross forming one timeline and DYRL, FB2012, and MII forming a separate timeline.

7. http://groups.google.com/groups?q=author:a...iwan.com&rnum=3

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=author:a...iwan.com&rnum=2

Same author, posting in 1994.10.1 and 1994.10.6. By now, he has gotten with the program re: where DYRL fits in the continuity, and like other fans, he views it as an amusing innovation.

In conclusion, until August, 1994, American anime fans believed that DYRL was an alternate telling of the events of SW 1, having basically the same relationship to SDF: Macross as the movie and tv versions of Mash, The Fugitive , or Lost in Space (shudder). Only with the release of Macross Plus, and associated literature published in Japanese anime magazines at the time, did they become aware of the "movie within a movie" concept. Since some of them obviously knew Japanese before that time (or they wouldn't have been able to read the articles in Newtype, etc.) and were serious otaku collectors, it is highly doubtful that any official pronouncements or interview statements had been made prior to August, 1994, about DYRL being a "movie in the Macross universe". It is possible that some of the Macross creators had this idea or something like it in their minds prior to the development of Macross Plus, but in my view, the burden of proof rests squarely on the proponents of that notion.

[bsu legato]

Great work, ewilen. Talk about "above and beyond the call of duty"...

[Agent ONE]

Great work, ewilen. Talk about "above and beyond the call of duty"...

Yeah, smashing!

A really good job!

[JsARCLIGHT]

Now THAT is evidence and proof.

You've written some papers in your life, haven't you?

[ewilen]

Not as many as I should have, or I'd be an impoverished history Ph.D. instead of a grad-school dropout network administrator, reasonably, uh, un-poverished.

[Agent ONE]

Hey guys I just saw this news report about Keith:

[ewilen]

Hey, notice how my article had no insults or snears? (Hint, hint.)

[Agent ONE]

Hey, notice how my article had no insults or snears? (Hint, hint.)

Yeah, but Keith has a good sense of humor and he has known me for a long time. I probably wouldn't do that to anyone else.

[ewilen]

OIC

[TheLoneWolf]

Alright guys, here's part 1 of the DYRL Perfect Edition linear notes, dated 1992.

[TheLoneWolf]

And here's part 2. I had to break them up into sections since the linear notes were just too big for the scanner. I'll post the last two sections later, I gotta run.

[EXO]

Director's Suggestion... why do I feel "get a life" is somewhere in there...

hehe...

[Mechamaniac]

Great Neil, thanks for the pics!.

Now if only I could read all those squiggly little lines .

[JsARCLIGHT]

All this great material Lone Wolf is providing I'm having professionally translated on my own coin. As soon as I get the copies and get them to the translators the sooner I'll get them back. I'll post the translations for all the pertinant materials here in this thread.