Revenge of the Sith

[Hurin]

The prophecy? It's end was envisioned at RotJ. "It knew" what Anakin's choice would be. It doesn't take away from Anakin's free will if Mace had finished Sidious off (Anakin chooses to NOT intervene or he chooses to hack down Sidious instead). Either way, the prophecy is fulfilled.

I was just thinking about this in the car. If you consider that Anakin's destiny as the "chosen one" can be postponed, but not avoided. . . then I suppose that when he chose to turn on Mace and aid Palpatine, he was rejecting his identity as the "chosen one." But, eventually the Force had its way, and he embraced his destiny (with the help of his son) in RotJ.

Yet, if Mace Windu could kill the Sith Lord unaided, why was Anakin and the prophecy necessary? If anything, from a certain point of view, you could say that Anakin needlessly extended the reign of the Sith by turning on Windu.

Though, back to reality, when George Lucas originally wrote that "Son of the Suns" line (upon which, I believe the "chosen one" is based), I fully believe that he had Luke in mind. Only in light of the prequels can Vader begin to take on that identity.

[Hurin]

You guys are cracking me up with this "Sidious as Anakin's dad" thing. Lucas has quite directly said that this is just not the case. Now, he may change his mind next week and alter the movies to match. But when the "god" of the Star Wars universe says something definitive like that, it's no longer "open to interpretation."

I'd say the same thing about the "balace prophecy". . . but there is still a bit of wiggle room in what Lucas has said on the matter. Very little. But it is there. So interpret away!

[Keith]

What gravitated Sidious to Shmi Skywalker in the first place? Why did he choose a slave woman from a backworld when he could have picked some disgruntled poor woman on Coruscant in his own backyard? Was there something special about her?

Finding a Slave women who isn't getting poked by her master would be hard in itself. But look at Tatooine, It's got pod racing to sharpen Anakin's skills, it's out of the Jedi's sphere of influence, and it's got Tuskin Raiders who are likely very succeptable to jedi mind tricks. Ones like "kidnap this woman, hold onto her for weeks, & just barely keep her alive."

[Hurin]

What gravitated Sidious to Shmi Skywalker in the first place?  Why did he choose a slave woman from a backworld when he could have picked some disgruntled poor woman on Coruscant in his own backyard?  Was there something special about her?

Finding a Slave women who isn't getting poked by her master would be hard in itself. But look at Tatooine, It's got pod racing to sharpen Anakin's skills, it's out of the Jedi's sphere of influence, and it's got Tuskin Raiders who are likely very succeptable to jedi mind tricks. Ones like "kidnap this woman, hold onto her for weeks, & just barely keep her alive."

Sidious can see a great deal of the future through the Force. He doesn't need to have caused each and every event in Anakin's life. Rather, he just needs to see them coming and be ready to exploit them.

Edited May 24, 2005 by Hurin

[Keith]

You guys are cracking me up with this "Sidious as Anakin's dad" thing. Lucas has quite directly said that this is just not the case. Now, he may change his mind next week and alter the movies to match. But when the "god" of the Star Wars universe says something definitive like that, it's no longer "open to interpretation."

I'd say the same thing about the "balace prophecy". . . but there is still a bit of wiggle room in what Lucas has said on the matter. Very little. But it is there. So interpret away!

And yet, he throws in the bit in Ep III about Plagius being able to create life. so even if it wasn't Sidius, it could still potentially be his master

[Hurin]

And yet, he throws in the bit in Ep III about Plagius being able to create life. so even if it wasn't Sidius, it could still potentially be his master

Or, it could be what George Lucas said it was. That reference by Palpatine doesn't have to have any relation to Anakin's birth. Now, I could see the need to assign it that meaning if it had been mentioned with no obvious purpose. But it already serves as the plot device that motivates Anakin to consider the Dark Side. It doesn't need to serve two purposes. And, according to Lucas, it doesn't.

[lord_breetai]

Just saw it... I liked the whole fear of loss thing especially cause Vader tries that on luke "it is the only way you can save your friends". It was a good movie though I have some minor problems with it.

[lord_breetai]

You're explaining to me why Anakin did what he did. . . but not why the prophecy "made" it happen that way.  The thing about prophecy and destiny (in most fiction) is that they are unavoidable and that they really are sorta controlling things.

Okay, let me rephrase:  If the entire purpose of the prophecy and/or Anakin's destiny is to kill the Sith Lord, it seems awfully counter-productive for Anakin to stop Mace Windu from killing him.  If the purpose of the prophecy is to destroy the Sith, it seems odd that its instrument would stop that from happening, only to accomplish it twenty years later.

H

It was not the right time... for blanace to be restored to the force both the Darkside and Lightside had to go back to square 1... I don't think destroying the sith in itself was enough though that was the fullfilment of the prophecy in full "Restore Balance to the force and destroy the sith" not "restore balance to the force by destroying the sith"

We know Lucas had a hand in the Tales of the Jedi Knights comics which had a very different preception of the Jedi oder... there was a lot less indoctranation and a lot more freedom (Jedi had multiple apprentices, could marry and could be trained from any age). And there were a lot more Jedi who went over to the dark without neccisarrily becoming Sith.

Even if we skip Kotor's explanation of why, by the prequal movies we see very different Jedi (and also Sith but that's another matter). Maybe the blance was wrong in that way. And the blance had to temporarly shift to the Dark until all the Jedi (even Obi-wan and Yoda or at least the Jedi council (cause there might have been stragglers who were warned away)) were gone, so that the force could be restored to blance when Luke creates a New Jedi order (not neccesarilly like the books but maybe the focus for the rumored TV series?)... he not being instructed by Yoda or Obi-wan in the ways of making the order creates one more like in TOTJ one more at balance with the force.

So that's how Anakin Brought Balance to the Force and destroyed the sith (my theory anyway).

"3. How in the world does Obi-wan in ANH do not remember R2-D2? The story continuity is just messed up. Better yet, how come Beru and Owen do not remember the droids or evan Darth Vader?"

Owen knows about Vader "He's too much like his father" "that's what I'm worried about"

Maybe Obi-wan just didn't want Luke to know he knew the droid... it was never his droid really it was Anakins he only said "I don't seem to remember owning a droid... so he didn't lie".

Edited May 24, 2005 by lord_breetai

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

I'll stick toothe theory that Palps was deliberately losing to Mace in order to turn Anakin by making the Jedi look nasty and himself the feeble victim?

After all, if Mace was that good, his 3 buddies shouldn't have been skewered so quick.

And I don't think Yoda really lost, probably had to run because the Imperial troops would be on their way to save Palps.

Edited May 24, 2005 by Retracting Head Ter Ter

[Sumdumgai]

Maybe Darth Plagius did achieve immortality and be able to go *poof* like Obi-wan and Yoda and turn into spirits.

Plus it would make sense that he not appear to his apprentice or any other Sith pupils. "I became all powerful and learned how to do this, and my dick apprentice sabered me in my sleep. I'm not teaching you how to become immortal! Learn it on your own!"

If this is the case, I'm sure Darth Plagius was laughing his ass off the entire time watching Palpatine's schemes, and watching the Jedi get eliminated. If I were a spirit sith lord, I'd be having non-stop fits of mad laughter! "The jedi council doesn't realize a Sith Lord is sitting right in front of them and has control of the senate!"

"I love Democracy. I swear when this war has abated, I will lay down my powers."

[Duke Togo]

And yet, he throws in the bit in Ep III about Plagius being able to create life. so even if it wasn't Sidius, it could still potentially be his master

Or, it could be what George Lucas said it was. That reference by Palpatine doesn't have to have any relation to Anakin's birth. Now, I could see the need to assign it that meaning if it had been mentioned with no obvious purpose. But it already serves as the plot device that motivates Anakin to consider the Dark Side. It doesn't need to serve two purposes. And, according to Lucas, it doesn't.

I have to agree with you here, but its too late. They'll debate this 5 ways to Sunday no matter what anyone says.

[Hoptimus]

And yet, he throws in the bit in Ep III about Plagius being able to create life. so even if it wasn't Sidius, it could still potentially be his master

Or, it could be what George Lucas said it was. That reference by Palpatine doesn't have to have any relation to Anakin's birth. Now, I could see the need to assign it that meaning if it had been mentioned with no obvious purpose. But it already serves as the plot device that motivates Anakin to consider the Dark Side. It doesn't need to serve two purposes. And, according to Lucas, it doesn't.

I have to agree with you here, but its too late. They'll debate this 5 ways to Sunday no matter what anyone says.

Exactly.

Palpatine just spun that yarn as one more lie to make Anakin think that the Dark Side is right for him.

[Mechwarrior]

So then why does he have to disguise himself? It is so obvious he is the cookie monster, pretending to be granny bird, in order to get the bird seed cookies.

[Prime]

And yet, he throws in the bit in Ep III about Plagius being able to create life. so even if it wasn't Sidius, it could still potentially be his master

Or, it could be what George Lucas said it was. That reference by Palpatine doesn't have to have any relation to Anakin's birth. Now, I could see the need to assign it that meaning if it had been mentioned with no obvious purpose. But it already serves as the plot device that motivates Anakin to consider the Dark Side. It doesn't need to serve two purposes. And, according to Lucas, it doesn't.

Indeed. If Plagius really did have something to do with Anakin's conception, why the hell would he use a slave woman on a remote planet and then disappear before the kid was born? Surely doing this would be to serve his own purposes, and thus he would want some control over the "outcomes". And yet there is nothing of the sort.

Palpatine is just leading Anakin down the path...

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I saw the movie and since this is a spoiler thread well here goes.

I liked it, great movie. But I have a few complaints.

-A lot of the jedi in the film....well you barely see them. Most of them are killed before you even get to see what each of them do and such. And yet they got the best action figures in the line........

-I wanted to see more of the ARC and jedi starfighters. You don't see them for too long. The clone tank barely got any action too.

-I didn't like the aerobatics and crap that sidious did. Come on he's old. It just didn't look right.

Nonetheless I liked the movie. Best of the prequels.

[Godzilla]

And yet, he throws in the bit in Ep III about Plagius being able to create life. so even if it wasn't Sidius, it could still potentially be his master

Or, it could be what George Lucas said it was. That reference by Palpatine doesn't have to have any relation to Anakin's birth. Now, I could see the need to assign it that meaning if it had been mentioned with no obvious purpose. But it already serves as the plot device that motivates Anakin to consider the Dark Side. It doesn't need to serve two purposes. And, according to Lucas, it doesn't.

Indeed. If Plagius really did have something to do with Anakin's conception, why the hell would he use a slave woman on a remote planet and then disappear before the kid was born? Surely doing this would be to serve his own purposes, and thus he would want some control over the "outcomes". And yet there is nothing of the sort.

Palpatine is just leading Anakin down the path...

Before I leave my SW geekdom...

If memory serves me correct, Plagius was killed by his apprentice in his sleep according to the Chancellor. Seems to be recurring theme. Apprentices kills their master for the Sith. Yeah yeah, Maul and Tyranus were killed by Jedi. But if you look at RotJ, Vader finally killed his master.

[Stamen0083]

If memory serves me correct, Plagius was killed by his apprentice in his sleep according to the Chancellor. Seems to be recurring theme.

That's how Sith work. There can only be two Sith at any one time, and when the pupil is ready to become the master, the pupil slays the master and takes an apprentice. If the pupil fails, the master slays him/her and takes on another apprentice.

[EXO]

So where was Dooku when Maul was the apprentice?

[Southpaw Samurai]

Dooku was a Jedi at the time of TPM, already some what disenchanted with the Order, the Senate, and the general state of the Republic, but still a Jedi. The books and other non-movie material I think have him as one of a score of Jedi that left the Order under protest (which may have occurred prior/during TPM), but don't know the details.

The questions is, was Dooku actively courted by Sideous during this time? The alterations to the Jedi star maps would indicate such. Sounds like Sideous likes to have his little 'Future Sith Apprentices' on the side (much like his grooming of Anakin since he first met him).

Never been a big fan of the 'rule of two' thing myself. Seems either too strict or too vague in interpretations (such as my above comment on Sideous grooming 'other options').

Edited May 24, 2005 by Southpaw Samurai

[do not disturb]

i justed watched the bootleg at my friends house last night.....IT ROCKED!

one thing that sort of bothered me...

i can't believe dooku went out like a punk?

obiwan wasn't good enough to take on dooku by himself, yet anakin was? yet anakin wasn't good enough to take obiwan....thats too much madness.

[Hurin]

i can't believe dooku went out like a punk?

He may have been given orders to lose, and even incapacitate Obi-Wan before doing so. Sidious (it has been said) had promised Dooku that he would not let Anakin kill him if the plan went awry. But, of course, Sidious can't be trusted. Must be something about the name.

Or, alternatively, both Kenobi and Skywalker have become much more powerful since they met last. The book (I'm only about 30 pages in now) says that they have each learned a lot from each other, and comlemented each other's abilities.

obiwan wasn't good enough to take on dooku by himself

That was a while ago (see above). Things change.

yet anakin wasn't good enough to take obiwan....thats too much madness.

Anakin is the more powerful Jedi. Yet Obi-Wan is wiser. It is Anakin's overconfidence and idiocy that finally costs him the battle with Obi-Wan even with Obi-Wan warning him not to "try it."

Man, I can't believe I'm going to these lenghts to defend a prequel. But that's just the way I think those concerns can be explained.

[do not disturb]

well i don't read any SW books, i just watch the movies and movies only.

if i got one of those SW novels, it would mean the beginning of the end for me. once you go to the dorkside, theres no coming back.

[VF-19]

i justed watched the bootleg at my friends house last night.....IT ROCKED!

Shame on you! Go and watch it in the theater, at least the picture quality will be much much better.

One thing that bugged a few people about the movie (that I've talked to) was Darth Vader's stagger when he gets off of the operating table. My reply is: "It's the first time he's walked on those mechanical legs, he hasn't had time to get used to them." And then I make an analogy to stilts as they take some practice to get used to.

[do not disturb]

i justed watched the bootleg at my friends house last night.....IT ROCKED!

Shame on you! Go and watch it in the theater, at least the picture quality will be much much better.

so you say.

while bootleg quality isn't the best, you care for about 5 minutes, then you get sucked into the movie and forget about it....atleast thats the way it is with me.

i got it out of my system for now but i'll probably breakdown and go watch it in the threatre to get the full movie experience.

[lt.actionjackson]

It's probably just some fanboy talking out of his arse but:

Lucas talks about prequels to the prequels

I'm sure it's just some wishful thinking from a fanboy, but who knows?

[Noriko Takaya]

If memory serves me correct, Plagius was killed by his apprentice in his sleep according to the Chancellor. Seems to be recurring theme. Apprentices kills their master for the Sith. Yeah yeah, Maul and Tyranus were killed by Jedi. But if you look at RotJ, Vader finally killed his master.

Well, I have not seen the film yet, but have read the novel. I will see the movie Friday. But in the novel, Palpatine admits that Plagueis was his master and that he killed him while he slept.

[Hurin]

My friend and I just had a 30 minute conversation about Star Wars and a lot of the stuff that we've been discussing here.

He came up with an interesting theory. The Sith lost control of the galaxy to the Jedi about 800 years prior to TPM (according to Lucas). Yoda was actually there to witness it, apparently.

Anyways, the Sith Lord has been in hiding up until that time. But, wait. . . if a Sith uses the Force to augment themselves, and to rule, and their entire goal is to take control and govern with an iron fist with the Force as their instrument of authority. . . then is it really plausible that Sith Lords would be content to merely raise their apprentices, and bide their time waiting to be killed by their apprentices. . . thus keeping the Sith line of succession going until hundreds of years later when their time is right?

I don't think so. A Sith is ultimately selfish and unwilling to just hide out, waiting to die so that their ancestors can then benefit.

So. . . since the novel (as my friend confirmed) says flat-out that Plagueis was his master, and that he learned the secret of (at least) unnaturally prolonging life from him. . . is it not then possible that Palpatine has been the Sith Lord for hundreds of years. . . since the fall of the Sith?

I think the novelization for RotJ alludes to the Emperor using the Force to prolong his life far beyond his normal life-span. Perhaps this was the "first draft" of this concept?

Edited May 25, 2005 by Hurin

[Seven]

Not to keep dragging this back up, but I still don't get it...

The prophecy goes:

While I imagine this was one of those subjects meant to spark debate and discussion, George Lucas has stated in interviews that Anakin Skywalker is indeed the Chosen One. As far as the prophecy goes, Anakin brings balance to the Force since it is he who disposes of the imbalance. That is, he kills Emperor Palpatine in Return of the Jedi. Sure, Luke is the catalyst for this turn of events, but it is ultimately Anakin who makes the choice. - Insider Magazine

So to achieve balance of the force, the dark side must be eliminated? Isn't that an imbalance since only the light side is represented in the force?! Or does this all have to do in the use of the force, which in the light side is more in harmony with nature while dark side is concerned only with destruction and power?

Maybe Luke does not upset the balance since he walks the light side but respects the power of the dark side and recognizes its uses while being able to fight off the corruptive effects.

[Hurin]

So to achieve balance of the force, the dark side must be eliminated?  Isn't that an imbalance since only the light side is represented in the force?!  Or does this all have to do in the use of the force, which in the light side is more in harmony with nature while dark side is concerned only with destruction and power?

Maybe Luke does not upset the balance since he walks the light side but respects the power of the dark side and recognizes its uses while being able to fight off the corruptive effects.

Okay, for like the fifth time. . .

The imbalance in the Force is Sidious, not the Jedi. A properly trained Jedi acts with the balance of the Force in mind. Ultimately selfless and the means justify the end. The Sith care nothing about the balance, using the Force to only augment themselves. Ultimately selfish and the ends justify the means.

Or, in other words: A properly trained Jedi is mindful of keeping the Force in balance. He does not affect the balance of the Force. We're not talking about the number of Force users on each side, but how the Force is used.

[Duke Togo]

So to achieve balance of the force, the dark side must be eliminated?  Isn't that an imbalance since only the light side is represented in the force?!  Or does this all have to do in the use of the force, which in the light side is more in harmony with nature while dark side is concerned only with destruction and power?

Maybe Luke does not upset the balance since he walks the light side but respects the power of the dark side and recognizes its uses while being able to fight off the corruptive effects.

Okay, for like the fifth time. . .

The imbalance in the Force is Sidious, not the Jedi. A properly trained Jedi acts with the balance of the Force in mind. Ultimately selfless and the means justify the end. The Sith care nothing about the balance, using the Force to only augment themselves. Ultimately selfish and the ends justify the means.

Or, in other words: A properly trained Jedi is mindful of keeping the Force in balance. He does not affect the balance of the Force. We're not talking about the number of Force users on each side, but how the Force is used.

In other words, you're still wrong. The Jedi put the Force out of balance as well. No matter how much you don't want the Prequels to be real, they are.

[Hikuro]

Just my 2 cents......but Luke wanted to be a jedi like his father. But in my opinion once he found out all the responsiblities and duties which would lie ahead of him I don't think he was even prepared and wanted to fully accept it.

But than if that were true he wouldn't have restarted the Jedi Order....so blah.

[Keith]

Yup, force isn't back in balance until there is a Jedi inbetween both sides (like Luke), or there are no Jedi.

[Uxi]

Except Luke is NOT in between both sides. He is a JEDI and he clearly rejects the Sith and Palpatine's overtures. Like his father, he balances precariously between the Light and the Dark but he DOES choose the light. Good and evil are not equivalent opposites in Star Wars. The dark side is a parasite, at best, that merely degrades the whole or a cancer that destroys the whole. Besides which, by this inane definition, the Force would be in imbalance at the end of RotJ (One Jedi / Light ( Luke) and zero Sith).

The Jedi are Force conservationists. They treat the Force with reverence and manipulate it subtly and even then only when they must because they strive to keep the Force in balance. Witness Anakin's remark to Padme that they're not supposed to use it in a casual manner (to bring fruit from the plate). They surrender themselves to the universe both figuratively and literally and give up their lives in service.

The Sith are Force polluters. They don't care how their manipulation of the Force (fate, if you will) affects those around them. They ARE the universe, from their perspective and the rest exists only to serves them. The Sith are CANCER, consuming their host and destroying themselves in the process. It's just a matter of time.

Edited May 25, 2005 by Uxi

[Hurin]

So to achieve balance of the force, the dark side must be eliminated?  Isn't that an imbalance since only the light side is represented in the force?!  Or does this all have to do in the use of the force, which in the light side is more in harmony with nature while dark side is concerned only with destruction and power?

Maybe Luke does not upset the balance since he walks the light side but respects the power of the dark side and recognizes its uses while being able to fight off the corruptive effects.

Okay, for like the fifth time. . .

The imbalance in the Force is Sidious, not the Jedi. A properly trained Jedi acts with the balance of the Force in mind. Ultimately selfless and the means justify the end. The Sith care nothing about the balance, using the Force to only augment themselves. Ultimately selfish and the ends justify the means.

Or, in other words: A properly trained Jedi is mindful of keeping the Force in balance. He does not affect the balance of the Force. We're not talking about the number of Force users on each side, but how the Force is used.

In other words, you're still wrong. The Jedi put the Force out of balance as well. No matter how much you don't want the Prequels to be real, they are.

Duke Togo,

Are you aware that I'm quoting George Lucas regarding the prequels? How am I pretending that they don't exist if I'm telling you what their creator said about the prequels, and the prophecy that is first mentioned therein?

Or, in other words: Are you really unable to understand basic english or are you intentionally being this dense to annoy me? Either way, you're making no sense.

H

P.S. Don't look now, But you know those fanboys you can't stand who come up with their own views and pet theories about Star Wars and then angrily defend them even in the face of George Lucas directly contradicting them. Well, guess what, that's you. Fanboy.

Edited May 25, 2005 by Hurin

[Uxi]

Well methinks we should keep any semi-credible debate to in-universe perspective. Lucas' intent is obvious to anyone who cares to research it, but the execution sometimes has other implementations, but a person who wants to find a spade is usually gonna find what they want. I get an entirely different interpretation of Yoda versus Sidious from the novelization than from the movie, for example. If one is looking for contradiction, it can probably be rationalized. Intent towards validation is far more goalworthy IMO.

IOW, Yo Golgo 13, can you think of any in-universe corroboration that the Jedi put the Force out of balance? Despite the fact that we have explicit on camera mention that they avoid casual use of the Force? For that matter, what do you have beyond opinion that's even in the Real World ?

I'm taking in-universe is Hurin is saying "Lucas said." So far, all you've said is "nah uh!"