Revenge of the Sith

[mikeszekely]

Best stuff about Sifo-Dyas:

http://www.theforce.net/swenc/entrydesc.asp?search=35942

http://www.theforce.net/swenc/entrydesc.asp?search=35926

Thanks David!

Anakin was cared about TOO MUCH. As Obi-Wan reminices at the end of the novelization for Revenge of the Sith, he made excuses for Anakin, covered for him, defended him to the Council etc. He needed to be slapped down more than once along the way and maybe expelled from the Jedi order... but once he began training it couldn't be undone and he could always look to the dark side to pick up where he left off.

Yeah, it was cared about too much... by Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan is like those parents who make excuses for why their 10-year old is out of control even as they buy him the newest Grand Theft Auto game.

But the rest of the Jedi kind of a-holes to Anakin. If they would have confided a little more in him, he would have returned their trust with reguards to Palpatine. The Council didn't have to always treat Anakin like and unwanted child, and if they really had a problem with his behavior, they could have expressed concern with how Obi-Wan was training him, instead of constantly telling him what a great Jedi he was.

[HWR MKII]

WE HAVE CONFIRMATION!

That was the Millennium Falcon in that short scene. Im reading the EP3 making of book right now and it says"it makes a cameo in scene csl.005 (Coruscant Senate Landing platform) Jaeger reverse engineers the craft eliminating its rust colored panels and blast marks-after all its 20 years younger!" end quote. By the way it is the high sidewall one too

[BoBe-Patt]

WE HAVE CONFIRMATION!

That was the Millennium Falcon in that short scene. Im reading the EP3 making of book right now and it says"it makes a cameo in scene csl.005 (Coruscant Senate Landing platform) Jaeger reverse engineers the craft eliminating its rust colored panels and blast marks-after all its 20 years younger!" end quote. By the way it is the high sidewall one too

wow, I saw the movie twice with different groups of friends and nobody spotted the millennium falcon except for me. And afterwards nobody believed me when I told them it was there.

[lt.actionjackson]

I just watched it this afternoon and I noticed there and pointed it out to my wife who said "The millenium what?" Fortunately, it all worked out because now she want to watch eps 4,5, 6. Heck, even I want to re-watch them again. I thnk the part that affected her the most was when Vader goes into the room to kill the hiding younglings. She became very irate. "Why did he do that??? Huh??? Those were just kids?! I can't watch anymore of this!" I just simply stated that he was evil and that was the nail in the coffin so to speak.

Episode 3 was definitely tighter than the other two. It's a shame eps 1 and 2 suffered from some poor editing and pacing (moreso in TPM than AOTC). Man, I really wish there was a way to edit episode 1 so it was more appealing. I think if I was going to turn my son on to Star Wars down the road (he's only 2 now), I'd skip episode 1 completely.

[Hurin]

So it's definitely the M. Falcon and not just another YT-1300 freighter?

H

[HWR MKII]

Absolutely the M.F. as Quoted directly from a book produced by lucasfilm documenting the making of EP3.

[Roy Focker]

Hmm how do we know that Anakin wasn't force to kill the younglings?

Maybe he was trying to escort them to a safe place when the little snots saw the Clonesblasting jedi. The kids who had their own light sabres actived them. Anakin was forced to kill them.

[Warmaker]

On an artistic note, at the very end of the movie, Owen & Beru Lars holding Luke while the suns were rising was an interesting way to show the audience that there was indeed light at the end of the tunnel (we all knew it, but still a nice touch).

If you remember, the pose Owen Lars had at the ending, standing on the sand dune, gazing at the Tatooine suns, is almost the same thing Luke does at ANH.

[DARTHTODD]

A little off topic but do any of you think it's a little ironic that in ROTS Lucas had Anakin killing kids/kids getting shot which is pretty violent and yet changes the OT to have Han NOT shooting Greedo first?

I guess they're not that comparable but still......

[Wes]

A little off topic but do any of you think it's a little ironic that in ROTS Lucas had Anakin killing kids/kids getting shot which is pretty violent and yet changes the OT to have Han NOT shooting Greedo first?

I guess they're not that comparable but still......

Well, I think it's more of showing how much of a loser Geedo is (not being able to shoot a guy point-blank). But Han still killed the guy, and Obi-Wan did do an amputation.

[MrDisco]

A little off topic but do any of you think it's a little ironic that in ROTS Lucas had Anakin killing kids/kids getting shot which is pretty violent and yet changes the OT to have Han NOT shooting Greedo first?

I guess they're not that comparable but still......

they're not b/c lucas changed the scene to suit han's character (in his mind) from one of ruthless (etc) to one a bit more noble (i.e firing in self defense)

[Hurin]

Was just flipping channels and saw a minute of Ep2 on Fox. Anakin was just arriving at the Lars homestead to look for his mom. I'm sure this has been discussed before elsewhere (if not here on MW). . . but why the heck doesn't Owen recognize Threepio in ANH when he obviously knew Threepio back then, by name, appearance, and voice?

[Chronocidal]

Simple.. that would make too much sense. And actually, 3PO's personality, color, memory were all changed after leaving the homestead. The last time Owen saw him by ANH was around 25+ years ago. Heck, some people have trouble remembering people's names after that long.. imagine trying to remember their old address or phone number. But yeah, it is odd it didn't ring any bells.

What I think is kinda funny/ironic is that Anakin/Vader nearly blows R2's head off in ANH. Some friend. lol...

Edited May 23, 2005 by Chronocidal

[Hurin]

Simple.. that would make too much sense. 

What I think is kinda funny is that Anakin/Vader nearly blows R2's head off in ANH.  Some friend. lol...

I guess you can't incestuously tie everything together like that without screwing up in some ways.

Edited May 23, 2005 by Hurin

[Skull Leader]

. . but why the heck doesn't Owen recognize Threepio in ANH when he obviously knew Threepio back then, by name, appearance, and voice?

Well, throughout other parts of the Star Wars series, we see other protocol droids that look very similar to C-3P0 (IE, encountering a silver duplicate in Cloud City). My guess is Protocol droids are common enough (that particular model as well) that Owen may have seen several in his lifetime.

That's the best explination I can come up with, anyhow...

(after all, he DOES approach C-3P0 with "I suppose you're programmed for etiquette and protocol....")

Edited May 23, 2005 by Skull Leader

[Uxi]

Why would Owen recognize that protocol droid amongst others? Especially when the old one had grungy plating and the new one has gold plating...

Besides which, it's just a droid. It's property like a car or a tractor. Any lingering issues are cleared up with a memory wipe. And Owen has need for a droid that can speak with his load lifters.

Edited May 23, 2005 by Uxi

[Wes]

. . but why the heck doesn't Owen recognize Threepio in ANH when he obviously knew Threepio back then, by name, appearance, and voice?

Well, throughout other parts of the Star Wars series, we see other protocol droids that look very similar to C-3P0 (IE, encountering a silver duplicate in Cloud City). My guess is Protocol droids are common enough (that particular model as well) that Owen may have seen several in his lifetime.

That's the best explination I can come up with, anyhow...

(after all, he DOES approach C-3P0 with "I suppose you're programmed for etiquette and protocol....")

Yeah, I'd like you to be able to identify one of your friend's old alarm clocks or NES he got rid of years ago from a pile of similar clocks/NES's.

[Prime]

Heh, now that the bold font rant over an irrelevent point has passed... back to meaningful SW discussion.

No kidding. I just posted some facts, MSW, without commenting on them one way or the other. No need to get your panties twisted like that. Or should I tell you to look up the word "asshat?"

My "emotional bold faced argument" wasn't even with you. I only used your post to point out those facts to Prime, whom seems to have overlooked it...and even then I never once even hinted to calling Mr March and Prime names such as "asshat".

Sorry, I didn't initally catch your meaning of "before he did anything" in regards to 9 films. I didn't respond since the point was made and I really couldn't care less about where Lucas's mind was in 1975 since things have changed so much since he started working on it originally.

  A little off topic but do any of you think it's a little ironic that in ROTS Lucas had Anakin killing kids/kids getting shot which is pretty violent and yet changes the OT to have Han NOT shooting Greedo first?

I guess they're not that comparable but still......

To be honest that is one change on the DVD version I like. It looks a lot more like they are both trying to kill each other simultanously, and less like self defense. But I think it does go to show that Lucas isn't as squeemish as some have claimed he is.

[Mr March]

WE HAVE CONFIRMATION!

That was the Millennium Falcon in that short scene. Im reading the EP3 making of book right now and it says"it makes a cameo in scene csl.005 (Coruscant Senate Landing platform) Jaeger reverse engineers the craft eliminating its rust colored panels and blast marks-after all its 20 years younger!" end quote. By the way it is the high sidewall one too

Cool! I'm going to have to look out for this when I see the movie again.

[Hurin]

Why would Owen recognize that protocol droid amongst others?  Especially when the old one had grungy plating and the new one has gold plating...

Besides which, it's just a droid.  It's property like a car or a tractor.  Any lingering issues are cleared up with a memory wipe.  And Owen has need for a droid that can speak with his load lifters.

Well, I see that Lucas just mucking it up isn't a possible option here.

Regarding Threepio not being recognizable to Owen. He does have a distinct name. And he introduces himself by name in ANH.

Now, I could be wrong here, because I don't know the timeline. How long were Schmi and Threepio at the homestead before Schmi was abducted and Anakin came by to get Threepio and murder a bunch of Tuskens?

If it was brief (under a year?). . . I guess I could see Owen not remembering Threepio (though it's still a stretch). But, if it's any longer than that, I'm sorry, but saying that Owen wouldn't remember Threepio's name or mannerisms, or voice (which I believe is somewhat unique based on the voice of the protocol droid on Bespin) just doesn't strike me as plausible. You might as well say that Luke wouldn't remember R2 or Threepio ten years later because droids are just a dime-a-dozen.

Then again, maybe Owen did recognize them, and that is why he was so hot to have both their memories erased. But, I think that's probably more likely to be standard procedure when you just purchased a couple of possibly "hot" droids.

H

Edited May 23, 2005 by Hurin

[EXO]

Why would Owen recognize that protocol droid amongst others?  Especially when the old one had grungy plating and the new one has gold plating...

Besides which, it's just a droid.  It's property like a car or a tractor.  Any lingering issues are cleared up with a memory wipe.  And Owen has need for a droid that can speak with his load lifters.

Well, I see that Lucas just mucking it up isn't a possible option here.

Regarding Threepio not being recognizable to Owen. He does have a distinct name. And he introduces himself by name in ANH.

Now, I could be wrong here, because I don't know the timeline. How long were Schmi and Threepio at the homestead before Schmi was abducted and Anakin came by to get Threepio and murder a bunch of Tuskens?

If it was brief (under a year?). . . I guess I could see Owen not remembering Threepio (though it's still a stretch). But, if it's any longer than that, I'm sorry, but saying that Owen wouldn't remember Threepio's name or mannerisms, or voice (which I believe is somewhat unique based on the voice of the protocol droid on Bespin) just doesn't strike me as plausible. You might as well say that Luke wouldn't remember R2 or Threepio ten years later because droids are just a dime-a-dozen.

Then again, maybe Owen did recognize them, and that is why he was so hot to have both their memories erased. But, I think that's probably more likely to be standard procedure when you just purchased a couple of possibly "hot" droids.

H

Have you seen Star Wars at all? Remember in ANH when R2 was shot and Luke waved it off while 3P0 was worried. People don't care about droids. Luke probably cared for them by the end of ROTJ but he'd be the only one. To everyone else these are just like any other appliances, not matter if they had a tone of voice. I'm sure if Vader cared he'd realize that it was 3P0 that showed up in Cloud City, but he didn't, just as anyone else. The way droids were looked upon like they were crap is all over the movies even before the new trilogy.

[Keith]

Hmm, I've thought up yet another bit of CG for Lucas to stick in. Have the Cantina bartender become a Jango clone, that way when he says "we don't serve your kind here," we'll know he's an ex-clone soldier who hates droids......

[Hurin]

Have you seen Star Wars at all?  Remember in ANH when R2 was shot and Luke waved it off while 3P0 was worried.  People don't care about droids.  Luke probably cared for them by the end of ROTJ but he'd be the only one.  To everyone else these are just like any other appliances, not matter if they had a tone of voice.  I'm sure if Vader cared he'd realize that it was 3P0 that showed up in Cloud City, but he didn't, just as anyone else.  The way droids were looked upon like they were crap is all over the movies even before the new trilogy.

In ANH:

"This astromech droid of yours looks a little beat up. You want another one?"

"Not on your life! That little droid and I have been through a lot together!"

Not exactly a refridgerator. I think there is concern and affection shown towards the droids quite a bit in all the films. They are just confident that they can repair them when something goes wrong. Hence, Luke not letting R2's blown dome get him down when it's time to celebrate that he just saved the entire friggin' galaxy (not to mention, he didn't seem all that broken up about Biggs either). And, in Empire They all seemed genuinely concerned when Threepio went missing, and when he showed up in parts. . . but Han immediately says: "Lando has people that can fix 'em."

Anyways, really, this is supposed to be a fun topic. Because the real answer to why Owen didn't recognize Threepio in ANH is (of course): Lucas didn't even know back then that Owen should recognize him because Lucas hadn't written the prequels yet. I guess what we're debating here isn't that so much as whether it's really plausible that Owen wouldn't recognize him. Obviously, you guys think it is. . . I personally just don't think Lucas cared whether it was plausible or not. He wanted to tie Threepio into the prequels directly (by having "Annie" build him). . . and he did so. . . knowing that his fans wouldn't even notice the problem or that they'd do the heavy lifting of rationalizing it if it was noticed.

H

Edited May 23, 2005 by Hurin

[Mechwarrior]

Juts saw the movie tonight, my only complaint is that i did not take a leak before watching it (had to hold it, lol). But i saw it for what it was, A Movie! I look forward to getting the DVD when it comes, obviously not alot of other people plan on buying the movie when it comes out on DVD. Oh wait, yes you are, lol. Can't wait to see it again on an empty bladder.

[Sundown]

If the Jedi as a whole had had a clue as to how to deal with Anakin beyond a curt "Sit DOWN, young Skywalker." then maybe they wouldn't have wound up dead.

See... that wouldn't make him any less of a psycho to me. He was already deeply loved and cared for by his mentor. That should be enough for most humans to prevent from going terribly wrong. If what you say is true, then him requiring universal acceptance in order not to go flat out loony just highlights how inherently broken he already is-- especially when its his own attitude, behavior, and actions that caused-- or at last enforced-- much of the Jedis' distrust in him in the first place. Anakin is at times an ungrateful little bastich with a stupidly gigantic sense of entitlement just because he can swing a glowing stick around. Love and care was somehow not enough.

That brings up another problem I have with the sudden transiton of Anakin's perspective. One moment he knew "good" from "wrong", Light from Dark. Sith from Jedi. He even wanted to win Windu's trust-- which he did eventually gain. The next moment he's able to spew whiney postmodern irrational diatribe about the "Sith" being "good" in his view. Come on. At least be honest about it. I have no problems with him turning to the Dark Side for fear, jealousy, anger, and personal gain. It made perfect sense to me why he'd lop Windu's arm off. He even whines about it rightfully. But him trying to plaster over his subsequent actions with morally relative sunshine minutes later just made me roll my eyes. I'd rather have had him spit vehemence about the Jedi in ways that rang true, that we can nearly agree with. I'd rather him wax on the Jedis' real failings.

But them treating you roughly because you're actually are an angsty, arrogant, overpowered psycho isn't one of them.

I know that's not the reason he turned to the dark side-- only because he was treated badly and just wasn't coddled enough. He simply wanted to save Padme... and that motivation lead both to fear and anger, and ultimately opened him to tasting a power that was too tempting in and of itself. Palpatine played upon Anakin's feelings of alienation and helplessness in order to present himself as the solution to his problems. So I guess I don't feel that Anakin "needed" the coddling, praise, respect, and adoration from all angles that he desired. He just needed to get over himself already, if he was even remotely capable of that.

-Al

Edited May 23, 2005 by Sundown

[Sumdumgai]

Mace Windu and the other Jedi Council members were right, Anakin was too old to begin training to become a jedi. He lacked discipline and self-control, which it looked like was taught to the younglings from a very young age (those younglings in Episode II were very self-controlled and polite).

They all sensed a danger in Anakin and especially in him being trained. It was a big mistake for them to give in to Qui-gon and Obi-wan.

I didn't see Mace Windu or the others as really being jerks from what we see in the movies. It looked like some of the requirements for being a Master on the Jedi council were to have self-control and strongly disciplined. Anakin throws a angsty piss-fit about not being a Master when they let him on the council at an unprecedented young age.

To me it seemed like the Jedi council just made a lot of bad decisions after the worst one: permitting Anakin to be trained as a Jedi.

Like someone said earlier, it looks like Anakin would have turned to the dark side of the force anyway, even without Palpatine whispering in his ear.

Obi-wan did fail Anakin though, he's right in that he didn't raise him right. I guess he didn't teach Anakin well enough. It could be that he taught him with the wrong methods, or it could be that he began to teach him when he was too old.

I felt that strategy-wise, Yoda and Obi-wan should have stuck together and trained Luke from childhood to adulthood somewhere far beyond the reach of the Empire. At least one of them should have. Giving Luke to Owen and Beru seems kind of like "the closer we are to danger, the farther we are from harm!" What if Vader ever wanted to go visit mom's grave?...

Vader: "Hey a kid named Luke Skywalker that's old enough to be my son and feels like he's related to me. WTF!!!!"

I know it had to be done to keep with continuity, but it still seems like a bad move...

[Limbo]

thats what bothers me... Anakin was too old to be trained, but Luke was at least double his dad's age when Yoda decided to train him. Ok, people will say the lack of options and desperation made him do it, but again, why not be a little more proactive and train the boy since a very young age instead of plain hide the kids? As far as I know, Obi Wan was just chilling in his cave when Luke came looking for him.

Edited May 23, 2005 by Limbo

[Blaine23]

thats what bothers me... Anakin was too old to be trained, but Luke was at least double his dad's age when Yoda decided to train him. Ok, people will say the lack of options and desperation made him do it, but again, why not be a little more proactive and train the boy since a very young age instead of plain hide the kids? As far as I know, Obi Wan was just chilling in his cave when Luke came looking for him.

I think the idea is that Obi Wan and Yoda had pretty much given up on restoring the Jedi order. Both likely realized that the Jedi's own actions and hubris led to their downfall, etc. Obi Wan likely hoped that Luke would live his life in anonymity on a backwards ass desert planet and die old, fat, and happy rather be killed by his father or become his father's apprentice. Anakin's betrayal pretty obviously wounded him to the point to where he blamed himself for Anakin becoming Vader - his dialogue in ANH seems to point that way.

By the time Luke had gotten to Yoda, he was already using the Force and had destroyed the Death Star. Yoda had serious, serious misgivings about trying to train the whiner, but he had to realize he was pretty close to dying and decided he'd have to trust the Force and Luke's own good intentions.

Works pretty well, if you ask me.

[estacado06479]

what about how much Owen couldnt stand Obi Wan? He called him crazy and told Luke to stay away from him. I'd say, Obi Wan DID come and try to train Luke, and Owen told him to flip off.

[Anubis]

what about how much Owen couldnt stand Obi Wan? He called him crazy and told Luke to stay away from him. I'd say, Obi Wan DID come and try to train Luke, and Owen told him to flip off.

Owen was rather concerned about Luke running off with Obi-wan. Obi-wan also seemed to know about Owen's reluctance as well. It's possible.

All this trying to find new meaning in the OT is pretty funny.

[EXO]

thats what bothers me... Anakin was too old to be trained, but Luke was at least double his dad's age when Yoda decided to train him. Ok, people will say the lack of options and desperation made him do it, but again, why not be a little more proactive and train the boy since a very young age instead of plain hide the kids? As far as I know, Obi Wan was just chilling in his cave when Luke came looking for him.

I think the idea is that Obi Wan and Yoda had pretty much given up on restoring the Jedi order. Both likely realized that the Jedi's own actions and hubris led to their downfall, etc. Obi Wan likely hoped that Luke would live his life in anonymity on a backwards ass desert planet and die old, fat, and happy rather be killed by his father or become his father's apprentice. Anakin's betrayal pretty obviously wounded him to the point to where he blamed himself for Anakin becoming Vader - his dialogue in ANH seems to point that way.

By the time Luke had gotten to Yoda, he was already using the Force and had destroyed the Death Star. Yoda had serious, serious misgivings about trying to train the whiner, but he had to realize he was pretty close to dying and decided he'd have to trust the Force and Luke's own good intentions.

Works pretty well, if you ask me.

Well if that didn't work there was always Leia...

Use 'em while you got 'em...

[Mule]

So does anyone else think it is possible that Darth Plaugus (sp?) manipulated midichlorians to create Anakin? It was an idea that my wife had, but it sounded plausible to me. Assuming that Darth Plaugus was Darth Sidious's master, the timing could have worked out.

[Prime]

So does anyone else think it is possible that Darth Plaugus (sp?) manipulated midichlorians to create Anakin? It was an idea that my wife had, but it sounded plausible to me. Assuming that Darth Plaugus was Darth Sidious's master, the timing could have worked out.

I find that pretty unlikely. If Darth P was really going to do such a thing (presumably to create a new apprentice or something of the sort), why would he take a slave in the middle of nowhere and then send or leave her with Watto?

I just don't see how that theory is feasible.

[Mule]

Keeping Shmi and kid on an outlying planet kept Anakin off the Jedi radar. Qui-gon said as much in Ep. I when he said "If he were born in the Republic, he would have been identified early." Also, Darth Plaugus probably didn't plan on gettin' capped in his sleep by Sidious, who might not have known of this little experiment. Who knows what his plans could have been. Again this is all conjecture. Just a 'what-if' idea that could be way off the mark.

[MGREXX]

I still think it's funny how Yoda walks into the senate buidling kicking a$$ and then Darth Sidious just punks him out by knocking him into the wall.

Btw, i thought it was so weak how Yoda just gave up after he fall onto the senate floor when he slipped. He had sidious on the run. He should judt have gotten his lazy a$$ of the floor and hopped back up. He loves hopping anyway. No, he just walks away like a little biotch.

HE COULD HAVE ENDED THE SITH RIGHT THERE MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh well.

Edited May 23, 2005 by MGREXX