Revenge of the Sith

[David Hingtgen]

Best stuff about Sifo-Dyas:

http://www.theforce.net/swenc/entrydesc.asp?search=35942

http://www.theforce.net/swenc/entrydesc.asp?search=35926

Edited May 22, 2005 by David Hingtgen

[bsu legato]

Dude! You're ruining the thread! Stop it!

In all seriousness though, good find.

Yeah, I hate to bring facts into threads like this. They're much better suited to bold fonts and emotional rants types ALL IN CAPS!!

But back to what I posted, note that this Third Trilogy was conceived as an afterthought when Star Wars was a success. The arc of the OT and even the bare bones of the PT were already in place by then, and whatever story he had imagined taking place after Jedi, it was almost as quickly discarded. I can't find any reference to a sequel trilogy anytime after Jedi was released, or even after Empire for that matter.

[Noriko Takaya]

Dooku's purpose is to be Anakin's first cold blooded murder.

Then what do you call the encampment of dead Tusken Raiders on Tatooine? Target practice? Granted, they had a hand in Shmi's death, but Anakin murdered them all (women and children included) just the same.

Tuskens versus Dooku is the difference between white hot rage and passion taking over versus a good moment for premeditation and consideration.

2nd ("hot" blooded) versus 1st ("cold" blooded) degree murder.

Murder is murder no matter how you try to define it.

[Hurin]

Dooku's purpose is to be Anakin's first cold blooded murder.

Then what do you call the encampment of dead Tusken Raiders on Tatooine? Target practice? Granted, they had a hand in Shmi's death, but Anakin murdered them all (women and children included) just the same.

Tuskens versus Dooku is the difference between white hot rage and passion taking over versus a good moment for premeditation and consideration.

2nd ("hot" blooded) versus 1st ("cold" blooded) degree murder.

Murder is murder no matter how you try to define it.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes!

[Prime]

Lucas has NEVER stated, hinted or even alleged that he started createing Star Wars with the intention of developing a nine part series...

Not true. Lucas stated in the August 1977 issue of Rolling Stone that his intention was to make a "trilogy of trilogies." In February 1997 on Entertainment Tonight he states that he was planning on creating three more movies, so that his vision of a 9 movie Star Wars saga would come true. In October 1997 in an interview with Lucas Reuters reports "He also plans a final trio of movies, set long after the first 'Star Wars' films." Finally in August 1998 Steve Sansweet says "He [Lucas] is on the record as saying six films will really tell the main story of the Skywalker family that he wants to tell and whether he'll ever want to do three more films or one more film or anything like that remains to be seen after he's finished the first three...He certainly not ruling them out, but he's certainly not ruling them in."

This history can be seen in older versions of the Star Wars FAQ.

Mark Hamill has also stated that he was contracted for movies 7-9.

[MSW]

Lucas has NEVER stated, hinted or even alleged that he started createing Star Wars with the intention of developing a nine part series...

Not true. Lucas stated in the August 1977 issue of Rolling Stone that his intention was to make a "trilogy of trilogies." In February 1997 on Entertainment Tonight he states that he was planning on creating three more movies, so that his vision of a 9 movie Star Wars saga would come true. In October 1997 in an interview with Lucas Reuters reports "He also plans a final trio of movies, set long after the first 'Star Wars' films." Finally in August 1998 Steve Sansweet says "He [Lucas] is on the record as saying six films will really tell the main story of the Skywalker family that he wants to tell and whether he'll ever want to do three more films or one more film or anything like that remains to be seen after he's finished the first three...He certainly not ruling them out, but he's certainly not ruling them in."

This history can be seen in older versions of the Star Wars FAQ.

Mark Hamill has also stated that he was contracted for movies 7-9.

By Augest of 1977 Star Wars was a SMASH hit...hell by June of 1977 it was considered as such....I know full well that nine episodes were planned at some point...but our argument concerns what Lucas ORIGINALY intended...

Re: the 9 SW film myth...

From Once Upon a Galaxy: The Making Of The Empire Strikes Back

QUOTE 

Alan Arnold: Tell me more about the overall concept of the Star Wars saga.

George Lucas: There are essentially nine films in a series of three trilogies. the first trilogy is about the young Ben Kenobi and the early life of Luke's father when Luke was a little boy. This trilogy takes place some twnety years before the second trilogy which includes Star Wars and Empire. About a year or two passes between each story of the trilogy and about twenty years pass between the trilogies. The entire saga spans about fifty-five years.

AA: How much is written?

GL: I have story treatments on all nine. I also have voluminous notes, histories, and other material I've developed for various purposes. Some of it will be used, some not.Originally, when I wrote Star Wars, it develped into an epic on the scale of War and Peace, so big I couldn't possibly make it into a movie. So I cut it in half, but it was still too big, so I cut each half into three parts. I then had material for six movies. After the success of Star Wars I added another trilogy but stopped there, primarily because reality took over. After all, it takes three years to prepare and make a Star Wars picture. How amny years are left? So I'm still left with three trilogies of nine films. At two hours each, that's about eighteen hours of film!

AA: What is the next chapter be?

GL: The next chapter is called "Revenge of the Jedi." It's the end of this particular trilogy, the conclusion of the conflict begun in Star Wars between Luke and Darth Vader. It resolves that situation once and for all. I won't say who survives and who doesn't, but if we are ever able to link together all three you'd find that the story progresses in a very logical fashion.

yeah at one point he thought there would be nine films...we arn't argueing that...but ORIGINALY that was NOT what Lucas intentended.

Now do I have to quote a dictionary to show you guys what "originaly" means?

[Uxi]

Heh, now that the bold font rant over an irrelevent point has passed... back to meaningful SW discussion.

Yes, murder is murder. Which is to be differentiated from killing in general (particularly self defense, but one could add other qualifiers).

In this case, though I specifically had a qualifier that was added in the original post "cold blood." Sheesh.

[Aegis!]

Finally , I finally got to see the supa-hyped new SW movie.

First of all , I AM NOT a SW fan ( far to young so I never experienced the original´s culture revolution, sorry ), nor am I fan of any other kind of occidental Sci-Fi series for that matter so you could say I have no bias against or in favour of the old or new movies.

so what I thought of it ?

well , to put it shortly , it´s a nice and adequate addition to the all-time famous saga , being very efficient in terms of completing the full circle.

in a scale of 10 I´d give 7/10.

Why ? first , I´m not passionate about the whole ( 9 episodes) plot , nor the characters , again , I ain´t a fan so for me it´s simply part of films´s culture , meaning I´ll strictly critisize it by its value as a stand alone film not as a franchise , nor as a culture phenomenon ( which I consider ir to be its greatest asset BTW).

So from a independantly produced film POV ( just like any other 1 part film ) I would have to say it´s a pleasant movie experience BUT it´s certainly not outstanding movie in its own, IT DOES HAVE SOME DAAAAMN GOOD SCENES , but is just that , scenes , about 60% of the film it´s like going for walk in the park while the rest of it partially grabs your FULL attention.

Anakin´s progression towards becoming Vader , particularly his fight with Obi-wan , the little padawans masacre and his role in Windu´s death are about the only real sweet spots of the whole movie. I supposse I was expecting more drama in the events leading up to the Jedis´s fall , but it was as if Lucas wanted for those scenes to get out of the way much too quickly so he could finally show off Vader´s appearance into the movie , we get no action or drama when seeing the Jedi fall one after another , not even a sign of real shock or emotion from Yoda or the others ( Obi-wan´s reaction had more to do with Anakin than with seeing his mates being killed IMO ).

other bad points of the movie were that of Vader screaming ¨NOOOOOO¨ like some kind of cartoon character when confronted with Padme´s death which was waaaay too lame for a this kind of flick, specially after all the good scenes , it could really have been executted more dramatiaclly without resorting to that level of cliche.

And what was with the Wookies ? Chewi´s cameo was REALLY out of place/time and had no real value to the whole film , it was as if he was included for no reason at all except pleasing the fanboys , and it was a shame it was done that way , really. Same with R2 , it was as if he was a reincarnation of Rambo , he killed droids like nothing, the intent for making him look cute was so obvious it wasn´t funny anymore , same with Yoda´s innocent little green dude attitude

That being said , This movie was really good , not a revolution in film making I may say but certainlly a WHOLE better than the past 2, and really worth going to the cinema and watching it.

It wasn´t shockingly impressive as I expected it to be but it wasn´t in any way a let-down , something that could´ve happened given the first 2. I think Lucas redeemed himself as the original SW mastermind/creator but not nearly close to some kind of god among film Directors.

Edited May 22, 2005 by Aegis!

[Chewie]

I loved it. I think hoiw Grievous was built up and died like a biotch and how easily Anakin went over to the dark side(at least how the movie portrayed it without the help of the clone wars cartoons and comics and such) was really....underdone (if you can say that word) but other than that it was better than the first two by far and I hope Lucas gets a bug up his ass to continue sometime in the future.

[Oihan]

My only point in this has been that people can't look at the prequels and say to themselves:  "That's what Lucas had in mind all along and the OT should be viewed retroactively in that light because Lucas knew all this even when he made them twenty years ago."

The way I see it, it's his creation, he can do whatever he wants with it. If it was orginally about war and peace and then turns out to be about Vader...so be it. Personally, I see both trilogies as a story about good vs. evil; with the only difference being how the first trilogy (OT) mainly revolves around Luke while the second revolves around Vader.

Edited May 22, 2005 by Oihan

[MSW]

Yes Lucas legaly owns the Star Wars property, which allows him to do what he wants with it...but do not think for a minute that Lucas is solely responseable for SW success.

Lucas didn't personnaly draw and design the ships, he didn't build the models, set up the blue screen, draw and design the costumes, make the costumes, draw/design/build the sets, he didn't personnaly draw the storyboards, load film into the camera, operate the camera focus, he didn't act each and every character in the films, that wasn't his voice, he didn't come up with the on-set adlibs...Lucas has teams of people, actors, set designers, pre-visual designers and planners, construction crews, camera operators all doing that for him....it has never just been Lucases vision, as all those people have made countless contributions too.

[bsu legato]

Heh, now that the bold font rant over an irrelevent point has passed... back to meaningful SW discussion.

No kidding. I just posted some facts, MSW, without commenting on them one way or the other. No need to get your panties twisted like that. Or should I tell you to look up the word "asshat?"

[Effect]

Yet he is the one that writes their checks or is reponsible for them getting their checks and using the technology to create those effects. Yes others have been very important in making Star Wars what it is, there is no doubt about that, but when it comes down to it in the end, without Lucas there would be no Star Wars. There would be no ILM, Lucasfilm, etc. The story of Star Wars and it's characters would not exist. There would be nothing to write novels about, to make video games about, to market. Everything starts with Lucas and is traced back to him. He owns the rights and is the creator and can do whatever he wants. Granted we don't have to always like what he does but he has every right to do.

[Hurin]

The way I see it, it's his creation, he can do whatever he wants with it.

Of course he can. And, I know very few anti-prequel people who would argue otherwise. But that doesn't make him infallible. Do we not have the right to criticize what we might view as mistakes? Saying that he can do something is not the same as saying that it's a good idea. And noticing changes in tone, humor, target audience, and sensibilty, and wishing that he had taken more care to stay true to the spirit of the originals (even if he felt that limited him) doesn't mean we think that he didn't have the right to make them.

And since I liked RotS, I'm glad he had the right to make it.

If it was orginally about war and peace and then turns out to be about Vader...so be it.

Yep. But, let me just say this one more time as succinctly as possible: If you think that the Prequels changed the meaning of the OT, fine. No argument from me, as long as you understand that it is a change and that it wasn't always that way. If you think that the Prequels, being newer and coming directly from the mind of George Lucas somehow supercedes anything mentioned in the OT in any sort of debate, I disagree, but okay. I can't see a way to convince you otherwise. But, if you think that the meanings, themes, and/or nature of the OT has always been what the prequels dictate because Lucas always envisioned the prequels as what they eventually turned out to be on film, and has now merely revealed those (always intended) meanings to us after twenty years, that's where I start to get a little uppity.

(the "you" used above is the generic you. Not directed at you personally)

H

[Max Jenius]

I agree with you Hurin that the prequels do change the meaning of the OT. But to me, that meaning wasn't really worth keeping in the first place, and personally, I like the alterations/affirmations that the PT makes for the OT.

[Warmaker]

10 pages, almost 12!

[reddsun1]

So what are we to think of all that Lucas and the SW movies have given us as the "story" (or certain key elements anyway) up 'til now? Are we to pretend that they never existed? Hell, I remember thinking when I first saw ROTJ "wow, he looks like an old dude," or something to that effect. But I much prefer the original vision of Anakin and other events to the whiny, brooding punk that they've given moviegoers this time 'round. This new Anakin wasn't a man torn between his desire to do good and his emotional desires to act and use his power; he just came across as a rebellious, disobedient kid going through pubescent hormonal rages when I watched AOTC, and it looks like another dose of the same in ep. III, from what previews/reviews I've seen. Somebody just needed to whup his ass and send him to his room the whole time.

The feeling I get from this trilogy is that Lucas just dragged things out way too much with superfluous unnecessary fluff in the first two films, now he's had to rush things way too much to wrap it up all neat and tidy in 2 hrs with the third film. Nah, I think I'll wait for cable as far as this latest flick is concerned.

Edited May 22, 2005 by reddsun1

[bsu legato]

Somebody just needed to whup his ass and send him to his room the whole time.

Actually, that's the opposite of what Anakin needed. His problem was that none of the Jedi actually cared about him, with the exception of Obi Wan. That's why he ends up finding his way to Palpatine, who is more than willing to be a father figure to him, to listen to his problems and to give him the advice that he wants to hear. If the Jedi as a whole had had a clue as to how to deal with Anakin beyond a curt "Sit DOWN, young Skywalker." then maybe they wouldn't have wound up dead.

[reddsun1]

Good point, Bsu. But I only agree up to a point. At some point, in some instances, people need to look at themselves and realize "look, there's things going on here that are bigger than me. it's not just all about ME." Maybe he needed someone to sit him down and tell him that. Maybe he was just not yet mature enough to come to that on his own, and this is perhaps the crux of what the story is trying to convey?

[Dobber]

Bingo!, I totally agree with BSU. Which for me would then lead back to the whole discusion about what the whole "balance of the force" prophecy. Luke is essentially a hybrid.....not a sith by any means, but also not a "traditional" Jedi. I know people said the he calls himself a Jedi and that he was trained by 2 old school Jedi...but you have to remember that those two jedi, Obi/Yoda, had 18 years to learn from Qui-Gon and think about what went wrong. Plus I'm pretty sure he's the only Jedi to use the Darkside and then turn away from that power. He also has strong attachments that the Old Jedi order "frowned" upon. The Sith needed to be destroyed, but the Jedi needed big change also.

Chris

Edited May 22, 2005 by Dobber

[Hurin]

Actually, that's the opposite of what Anakin needed. His problem was that none of the Jedi actually cared about him, with the exception of Obi Wan.

I'm not really sure that this is fair to the Jedi. As even Obi-Wan said in TPM: "The council sees that the boy is dangerous, why can't you see it?"

I think the Jedi council really didn't know what to do with him. They sensed that he was dangerous, and that he couldn't be trusted. And the only way they could try to stop him from becoming dangerous was to trust him. . . which they could not do because he was dangerous. Catch-22.

That's why he ends up finding his way to Palpatine, who is more than willing to be a father figure to him, to listen to his problems and to give him the advice that he wants to hear.

Well, Palpatine was never really being a true father figure, but just manipulating Anakin. He fooled Anakin into thinking of him as a father figure. But, in my interpretation, Palpatine sensed the same thing in Anakin that the council did, but saw it as an opportunity rather than something to be feared.

If the Jedi as a whole had had a clue as to how to deal with Anakin beyond a curt "Sit DOWN, young Skywalker." then maybe they wouldn't have wound up dead.

From the Jedi Council's point of view, they were really sorta saddled with Anakin by Qui-Gon (and, later, Obi-Wan). To me, their mistake was giving into Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan and agreeing to train Anakin. They tried to make everyone happy by going with half-measures. They allowed him to be trained, but didn't embrace him fully because of the danger the sensed. They should have either sent him back to Tatooine (with enough money to buy his mother's freedom), or embraced him fully (which I'm not sure was possible given what they sensed in him). But that's not often the way things work in an imperfect world.

Really, as it was in the OT, you could blame Obi-Wan. He essentially forced the Council's hand and blackmailed them into training Anakin. He said that if they didn't train him, Obi-Wan would do it himself, without the aid of the Jedi. In that situation, they probably felt it was better to at least keep him within the Jedi Order so that they (at best) could avoid what they feared was the boy's destiney, or (at worst) keep an eye on him.

H

Edited May 22, 2005 by Hurin

[wwwmwww]

I haven't read all 10 pages of this thread yet but in regards to episodes 7, 8, and 9. Have others here seen these?

Star Wars Episode 7 Plot Summary

Star Wars Episode 8 Plot Summary

Star Wars Episode 9 Plot Summary

I see George Lucas is credited for them but if I recall correctly these have been around for a while and I have no idea if they are official or not.

Anyone know more?

Carl

[Dobber]

Actually, that's the opposite of what Anakin needed. His problem was that none of the Jedi actually cared about him, with the exception of Obi Wan.

I'm not really sure that this is fair to the Jedi. As even Obi-Wan said in TPM: "The council sees that the boy is dangerous, why can't you see it?"

I think the Jedi council really didn't know what to do with him. They sensed that he was dangerous, and that he couldn't be trusted. And the only way they could try to stop him from becoming dangerous was to trust him. . . which they could not do because he was dangerous. Catch-22.

That's why he ends up finding his way to Palpatine, who is more than willing to be a father figure to him, to listen to his problems and to give him the advice that he wants to hear.

Well, Palpatine was never really being a true father figure, but just manipulating Anakin. He fooled Anakin into thinking of him as a father figure. But, in my interpretation, Palpatine sensed the same thing in Anakin that the council did, but saw it as an opportunity rather than something to be feared.

If the Jedi as a whole had had a clue as to how to deal with Anakin beyond a curt "Sit DOWN, young Skywalker." then maybe they wouldn't have wound up dead.

From the Jedi Council's point of view, they were really sorta saddled with Anakin by Qui-Gon (and, later, Obi-Wan). To me, their mistake was giving into Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan and agreeing to train Anakin. They tried to make everyone happy by going with half-measures. They allowed him to be trained, but didn't embrace him fully because of the danger the sensed. They should have either sent him back to Tatooine (with enough money to buy his mother's freedom), or embraced him fully (which I'm not sure was possible given what they sensed in him). But that's not often the way things work in an imperfect world.

Really, as it was in the OT, you could blame Obi-Wan. He essentially forced the Council's hand and blackmailed them into training Anakin. He said that if they didn't train him, Obi-Wan would do it himself, without the aid of the Jedi. In that situation, they probably felt it was better to at least keep him within the Jedi Order so that they (at best) could avoid what they feared was the boy's destiney, or (at worst) keep an eye on him.

H

I agree with you to a point Hurin. I had a suspition ever since I saw Ep I, and since we know what would eventually happen to the Jedi, that the council's sense of danger about Anakin had more to do with the actual prophecy. Watch their reaction when Qui-Gon says he believes that Anakin is the chosen one....I don't think that they completly thought the prophecy was a good thing. Sorta like they were trying to keep it away, like the old saying "Ignorance is bliss".....He's not here so the prophacy can't come true.

Then Yoda even says in episode 3, something to the effect of "we may have miss read the prophacy", to me, sort of verbalizing their previous sense of danger.

Chris

[MSW]

Heh, now that the bold font rant over an irrelevent point has passed... back to meaningful SW discussion.

No kidding. I just posted some facts, MSW, without commenting on them one way or the other. No need to get your panties twisted like that. Or should I tell you to look up the word "asshat?"

My "emotional bold faced argument" wasn't even with you. I only used your post to point out those facts to Prime, whom seems to have overlooked it...and even then I never once even hinted to calling Mr March and Prime names such as "asshat".

So please, for future refence, remember that its only a movie, and by that conclusion there is no need to get so worked up as to insult those with differing opinions on the subject.

[Dobber]

I haven't read all 10 pages of this thread yet but in regards to episodes 7, 8, and 9. Have others here seen these?

Star Wars Episode 7 Plot Summary

Star Wars Episode 8 Plot Summary

Star Wars Episode 9 Plot Summary

I see George Lucas is credited for them but if I recall correctly these have been around for a while and I have no idea if they are official or not.

Anyone know more?

Carl

I have no idea about those, however, I'm pretty sure most things that come from Supershadow are Fake.

Chris

[HWR MKII]

I could make the same thing using MSword and post it on the internet too. I just read what seems like an elaborate fanfic that heavily reused old ideas.

[Uxi]

Anakin was cared about TOO MUCH. As Obi-Wan reminices at the end of the novelization for Revenge of the Sith, he made excuses for Anakin, covered for him, defended him to the Council etc. He needed to be slapped down more than once along the way and maybe expelled from the Jedi order... but once he began training it couldn't be undone and he could always look to the dark side to pick up where he left off.

Qui-Gon may have been right about Anakin being the chosen one, but he probably should never have been trained at all after TPM. The Council WAS right. Anakin was too old to be spared the emotional turmoil that he wasn't disciplined enough to master himself. He should certainly have not been made a Jedi Knight, despite his heroism. And as Obi-Wan admits to Luke in ROTJ, he was wrong in thinking that he could train Anakin as well as Yoda. As he admitted to Anakin on Mustafar, he failed him.

Edited May 22, 2005 by Uxi

[Mr March]

I'm really at a loss here. 

*snip*

and...

By Augest of 1977 Star Wars was a SMASH hit...hell by June of 1977 it was considered as such....I know full well that nine episodes were planned at some point...but our argument concerns what Lucas ORIGINALY intended...

I too am at a loss. The debate now has turned into a petty squabble over semantics with arguements raging over the very definition of the word planned, considered, and intention. Neither you, nor anyone else in this thread can say for absolute certainty at what point the 9-12 film saga was considered, pondered, and ultimately rejected by Lucas himself. And given the mounting demand for proof, I suspect that even the day of week, the hour, the minute, and whether or not Lucas was in the bathroom when he made this decision would not satisfy.

The point made by my original posts was to simply defend my statement that during the early years, there was a plan/consideration/intention/statement to produce more than six films, however fleeting and transitory those plans/statements/considerations/intentions ultimately became. The point was also to debunk those who are continually saying the 9-12 film history is some invented myth that never had any basis at all, which is an outright lie. I have sourced numerous material which no one has bothered to even inquire about. Will leading bread crumbs directly to the BTM script analysis on RoTJ Scene 61 Script notes strike the point home or will directing you to Vaz and Hata's book page 114 provide enough "definitive" evidence? Shall we go on debating the evidence in the Cinefantastique interviews, the Rolling Stone interviews, The Insider, and whatever else I can possibly find that I remember reading about this subject over the years?

I think not. This discussion will continue driving into territory that is serving no purpose other than to fill this thread with text. I also have no intention of spending time doing your research for you or anyone else here. I can only hope you will take the time to read the material I've sourced in this thread and at least consider the possibility. I also hope that you will come to understand that what Lucas said in a 2005 interview has no bearing on what he said years ago when my point is that the nine films were once planned/stated/considered/intentioned. The 2005 Lucas interview would only invalidate my arguement if I said "Lucas is still planning nine films despite what he's saying now in 2005 interviews"...which is something I have never written here and I do not subscribe too.

Further, I am not and never have held out any hope for more films beyond the six. The possibility of nine films has been solidly dead since at least 1999 as far as my research can prove (which can be sourced to numerous publications, including the no infamous Empire interview) . Any one of you here that has attempted to paint me with the brush of fandom myth that I hold hope for the production of three more films will continue to be in error and I have no hope of convincing otherwise. Why this preconception even came into this arguement, I cannot fathom. My only guess, from past experience in online discussion, is frustrations you've had with fans that beleive such...preconceptions which you are projecting upon myself and my posts. This is not stopping, so I have no choice but to continue to ignore this character evaluation.

I am going to continue on in this thread elsewhere discussing more approriate topics. Thank you for your time.

Edited May 22, 2005 by Mr March

[Warmaker]

Anakin was cared about TOO MUCH. As Obi-Wan reminices at the end of the novelization for Revenge of the Sith, he made excuses for Anakin, covered for him, defended him to the Council etc. He needed to be slapped down more than once along the way and maybe expelled from the Jedi order... but once he began training it couldn't be undone and he could always look to the dark side to pick up where he left off.

Qui-Gon may have been right about Anakin being the chosen one, but he probably should never have been trained at all after TPM. The Council WAS right. Anakin was too old to be spared the emotional turmoil that he wasn't disciplined enough to master himself. He should certainly have not been made a Jedi Knight, despite his heroism.

But it is only through Anakin that the Sith will be destroyed. Palpatine could have gained his Empire without Anakin.

I don't have the book of RotS with me right now (loaned out), but I do recall that Master Yoda realized that strength for strength, power for power, that even HE could not defeat Palpatine. Another realization Yoda made during the fight to make it worse was that the Sith had changed.

The book went on about how the Sith, being out of the picture for so long, trained and plotted to have their Revenge. The Jedi it seemed whipped them bad long ago, but the book made it seem that the Jedi Order was trained for the last Jedi-Sith War. It even made a brief mention that some Jedi left the Order since it grew stale with no change even under Master Yoda's guidance. So the Sith hid, waited, and prepared while the Jedi Order just... didn't change with the times.

So, the old Jedi Order, including someone as wise and powerful as Yoda, didn't have what it took to defeat the new Sith, i.e. Palpatine. Fast forward to Return of the Jedi, even Luke could have been easily defeated by Palpatine.

But again, it is only through Anakin that Palpatine was destroyed.

The Prophecy was fulfilled, but nobody, even Anakin himself, didn't know exactly how it was going to be fulfilled.

[reddsun1]

Well, do we actually see the embodiment of the "Empire" as we know it in this film? And curiosity gets the best of me--are all the bad guys English? I remember from the first trilogy, all the bad guys sounded as though they had English accents. I know, it's more to do with casting issues (probably wanted to draw on classically trained acting talent? location of filming/casting? they make great bad guys though). The uniforms always seemed influenced by WWII German uniform designs; the "fluffy" pants, the high boots, the olive drab schemes, all remind me of old war movie German uniforms.

Anyway, I know the debate could be endless; there will always be some who will find fault with certain films, either the originals or the new. Me, I'm a bigger fan of the originals myself. All this has only served to inspire me to get out the ol' VHS tapes of the originals and do some reminiscing (got ESB on the tube now). I've got the "original" remastered versions, and from what I've seen posted about Lucas' latest changes to them, I'm glad I didn't get the later DVDs. swapping original actors out in key scenes? changing dialogue? That's just f--'ed up storytelling. Even with his original tinkering back in '97, Lucas STILL let some flubs slip through and find their way into the final product. I love finding little stuff like that in movies. My favorite has got to be in ESB during the battle on Hoth. Anybody else notice: when Luke crashes and takes out the AT-AT, just after the head explodes, look at the AT-ATs rear foot. The trained eye will catch the little stick that somebody pokes up through a trap door in the floor to tip the model off balance and get it to fall over! Not to detract from the film, but I love little stuff like that.

[Hurin]

Anakin was cared about TOO MUCH. As Obi-Wan reminices at the end of the novelization for Revenge of the Sith, he made excuses for Anakin, covered for him, defended him to the Council etc. He needed to be slapped down more than once along the way and maybe expelled from the Jedi order... but once he began training it couldn't be undone and he could always look to the dark side to pick up where he left off.

Yes, I think it was their mistake to be too nice to him (by not sending him packing back to Tatooine). He resented their rules and restrictions even before he had any good reason to do so.

He's complaining about Obi-Wan "holding him back" in AotC for no real good reason. He's always upset that he's not getting his due or is disciplined or put in his place (when he deserves it!). I especially remember that scene where Obi-Wan puts him in his place in front of Padme.

The real mistake was Obi-Wan's, essentially forcing Anakin on the Council. Anakin was obviously too old to become a Jedi Knight given his predispositions. Indeed, he obviously never took the Jedi code seriously enough. . . as he saw no problem in taking a wife. And it was her attachment to her that eventually would lead to his own downfall and the end of the Republic.

Wasn't there a poster that said (among other things): "A Jedi Shall Not Know Love." Well, I think we see why now. One could say that love destroyed the Republic.

H

[Hurin]

Reddsun1,

Save us all time, and you a lot of curiosity, and just go see it. It's $5.50 for a matinee.

I'm as old-school and conservative a Star Wars fan as they come. And I enjoyed it a lot. It does a lot to redeem the prequels in my eyes. . . even with the reservations towards their effect on the OT that I've expressed above.

I think a lot of the fanatical "fan boys" who are so casually dismissed as being nuts are actually enjoying this movie because Lucas actually has gone back and addressed a lot of the criticizms against the prior two. Which sort of puts the lie to the claim that the fanboys will never be happy and are just in love with complaining while being blinded by nostalgia. By and large, they are happy with this latest movie. I think that's indicative of something.

[Wes]

Somebody just needed to whup his ass and send him to his room the whole time.

Actually, that's the opposite of what Anakin needed. His problem was that none of the Jedi actually cared about him, with the exception of Obi Wan. That's why he ends up finding his way to Palpatine, who is more than willing to be a father figure to him, to listen to his problems and to give him the advice that he wants to hear. If the Jedi as a whole had had a clue as to how to deal with Anakin beyond a curt "Sit DOWN, young Skywalker." then maybe they wouldn't have wound up dead.

Didn't Yoda do that, at least when talking about his vision?

I think the biggest problem with Anakin was the Clone Wars. He had to be a fighter as well as grow in the Jedi discipline as well as deal with his love for Padme. He was overwelmed, and the stress didn't help. That and just plain war does things to people: just because he's a Jedi doesn't mean he couldn't be tramatized by the violence of it in some ways. Even from AotC did he seem to start on a path of believing that by using the force, often violently, could he do anything for those he cared about.

[reddsun1]

this website is pretty neat, with all the links and filmogrophies and such. http://www.imdb.com/

If you guys want to know what Boba Fett really looks like underneath his mask, look for "Captain Colton" in ep. III--he's the actor who played everybody's favorite neighborhood bounty hunter in ESB and ROTJ.

I used to wonder "how'd they get a guy that looked so much like the emporer in ROTJ to play Palpatine?" Easy, you just get the same guy! On an interesting note, he also plays the friar that gets roasted in Dragonslayer (one of my all time fav dragon/sorcery/sword flicks). I wonder what his take is on what "motivates" his character--he's only been Palpatine/the emporer for 20-something years...

[Warmaker]

Motivation? It's always fun to be the villain!