Revenge of the Sith

[Duke Togo]

"Oh, I'll name him Luke. Oh, I'll name her Leia. Oh, now I die."

I think it would have been better had they left the babies unnamed.

I completely agree with you on this point.

[kalvasflam]

The duels were lots of fun too watch. Sidious was really entertaining, especially how he offed the three jedis that went along with Windu. Probably the worst of the duels was the first one, Dooku seem to go down really fast as previously suggested, this guy would've beat the crap out of Maul, and did beat up the other two, and the way he went, it was just no style. I was disapponted that he didn't even use many force powers.

It was also kind of entertaining to watch yoda and kenobi go through some of the clones. Sidious hit it on the head when he called Yoda the little green freak, because that's exactly what he was when he beat down all the clones. It wouldn't have been out of place if Yoda was laughing hysterically as he was chopping down the clones.

[Duke Togo]

Cut scenes, from the "Making Of Revenge of the Sith" book, by way of DarthyMarkyMark on the Jedi Council Forums.

6, 7, 8-14, 25, 30, 32, 37-41: FedCruiser scenes cut (Grievous killing Shaak Ti, the Jedi using their lightsabers to escape GG, underwater swim, climb through shaft, many of R2's hangar gags, many Palpatine cliffhangers)

48: Mace greets Palpatine and the Jedi right after the crash-landing

56: Yoda, Obi-Wan and Mace discuss the Dark Side in Yoda's quarters

60: Bail and fellow Senators speak about the Senate

68-69: Obi-Wan tells Padme of his worries about Anakin and that he knows they're in love

71: Meeting with Organa, Mon Mothma and Padme

73: Anakin informs Palpatine that Obi-Wan soon will have Grievous' head

74: Jar Jar greets Anakin at Senate

75: Anakin confronts Padme

76-77: Republic cruiser arrives at Utapau

83: Obi-Wan chooses his lizard, Boga

86: Mace talks to Yoda on Kashyyyk, telling him of his plans to arrest Palpatine

88-89: Padme presents to Palpatine the Senators' petition

93: Utapau windmill

121: "crazy" Yoda and Chewbacca ambush an AT-ST

176: Yoda lands on Dagobah

[bsu legato]

1.  Innappropriate use of slapstick humor in places that destroyed tension in key scenes.  Ok, I got a chuckle out of the SBD kicking R2.  But it killed the moment for me... our heros are captured and in jeopardy!  Let us bask in the danger for a moment.  A Roger Roger droid getting sarcastic with Grevious made him a lot less imposing than I thought he'd be.  Overall the Roger Roger and Super Battle Droids were entirely annoying.  The Rogers weren't nearly so bad in Ep. 1.

Most people semed to enjoy R2's scenes. It was (finally) humor that didn't revolve around fart jokes and bad puns. But hey, SW isn't supposed to be funny, right? Grevious I'll get to later on....

2.  Dooku too easily bested, and killed without significant remorse. Etc..

Just how long is the duel supposed to last? It was long enough to show that Dooku was tough, but Anakin was better once he gave in to his anger. And Anakin's motivation to kill? How about his (symbolic) emasculation at Dooku's hands in the previous film? That, and I'm sure the Dark Side had something to say about it. As we've been told many times before, its a slippery slope once you start down the dark path.

3.  Anakin's transformation just didn't feel altogether believable.

Umm...Abrupt? Anakin began turning to the Dark Side halfway through Clones, and he struggles with it for much of the running time of Revenge. How is that abrupt? As for Anakin's specific reasons for turning, I think Palpatine did an admirable job of muddying the waters, making it nearly impossible for Anakin to distinguish which side was right. And love does make people act irrational, dontcha know?

4.  Battles had no tactical flow.  The old movies all presented battles with a tactical objective.  Overarching orders were given, so you could follow who's supposed to do what... what multi-part and elaborate plan everyone had to follow in order to accomplish their goal.  You could see formations, tactics, and the flow of battle unfold as one side gained ground or lost it.  And you could see both sides make adjustments and maneuvers based on how the fight is going.  They felt like real war flicks in some respects, except set in a galaxy far, far away.  Hence the magic.

Not a whole lot of that in the Prequels.  It seems every battle exists only to show CG troopers shoot at someone or be shot by someone, or for starfighters to blow another up or be blown up.  There's no actual battle to follow.  It's just a vehicle to display CG effects and for getting the characters where they need to be... at the next saber fight.  I would have liked to have some "sense" to the battles.  Rather than absolute chaos with everyone rushing headlong at everyone else.  I keep forgetting why each battle scene is even significant.

Troopers also showed no use of formations, tactics or cover.  Total departure from how they're portrayed in Clone Wars.  Major departure from ground combat as portrayed or at least implied in the OT.  Bummer.

Nostalgia has clouded your vision. The OT had little in the way of what you describe as tactics. Like the Stormtroopers who charge into the Tantive IV with little use for cover or tactics? (Thats what Stormtroopers did, historically) Or how about the Battle of Hoth where Imperial Walkers merely....well, walk towards the line of Rebel trenches? But I assume that's different from, say, the Battle on Geonosis where Republic forces do pretty much the same thing when assaulting the docked Trade Fed ships. And the latter stages of the (space) Battle of Endor are pretty much the same kind of wild melee as we see in the Battle of Coruscant. In fact, we see little of the overall battle in both of these engagements, instead focusing on the characters and their exploits. And I seriously doubt you'd have difficulty remembering just what was at stake in all of the battles.

5.  Grevious not meeting expectations that the franchise itself set with Clone Wars.  He's kind of gimpy.  The cough was interesting... I understand wanting to add character by giving him a weakness.  But it'd have been nice to see why he coughed.  Perhaps have that play into his fight with Obiwan.  Or else it's just extraneous and annoying.  Plus the guy has no lungs.

His voice was also overly cliche, in a campy generic bad guy sort of way.  Not as imposing as I'd have liked.  Did kind of like Obiwan gunning him down though, as I was thinking that it was totally out of character... until he blurted, "So uncivilized."  I was the only one in the theater that laughed. =P

Given their over-the-top nature, I wouldn't expect the films be be held to whatever standards the Clone War shorst set for Gervious or any other character. Grevious coughs because he's not some perfect cybernetic creation, as if the technology wasn't perfected. Or perhaps its akin to the phantom limb phenomenon. See, here we go again with the 2nd tier SW bad guy idealization. The how and why of Grevious and his origins are really of little consequence in terms of the story. I too wasn't a huge fan of his voice, but it did somehwat suit his character as he was an overblown coward at heart. The "So uncivilized" line was golden, however. One of my favorites in the film.

6.  Anytime Padme and Anakin are in the same scene... and their mouths are moving.  Enough said.

I thought they were hit and miss, but when they missed I tend to blam Portman this time 'round. She just sucks and/or didn't care.

7.  NO USE OF SUBTITLED ALIEN SPEECH?!  Fictional alien languages being heard is one of the things that makes the Star Wars universe feel vast and authentic.  They could have used that device here and there for atmosphere, instead of having everyone speak in 20th century english, regardless of how odd and alien they looked.  Maybe could even have used it for Grevious.

There were no subtitles in Empire. You know...Empire, the film SW geeks universally hail as being "perfect?"

8.  A pretty weak score for a Star Wars film.  Some moments just felt off, or less dramatic than they could have been, because the music just wasn't there... or it was just generic ambience music.

Most people I've talk to seem to consider this Williams' strongest score in years. I personally rate "Battle of the Heroes" up there with any track from the OT.

9.  Not enough attention spent on the new vehicles, allowing us to see any one of them at length, or apart from the clutter of the CG dazzle fest behind it.

Doesn't Lucas get enough criticism for these films being glorified toy commercials? This time around, more than any of the prequels, the hardware knows its place and stays in the background unless it serves the story.

10.  Old people should not spin, flip, and leap abo5ut like tazmanian devils on crack.  Not Palpy.  Not Dooku.  And to a lesser extent, not Yoda.  It just looks wrong.  I don't care how powerful they are in the force.  Palpy in ROTJ didn't need to move very much.  It in fact better showed how incredibly powerful he was.  Also because it's unbecoming and makes him look absolutely stupid.  And somehow, his makeup actually looks worse and cheaper than it did in ROTJ.

So the Force doesn't apply here? I'm glad you're here to tell us these things. Chewie, take the professor into the back and plug him into the hyperdrive.

Oh, and Palps vs Yoda rocked. It was every bit the "wizards battle" that critics described when they balked at the sight of Yoda weilding his lightsaber in Clones.

The biggest missing bit was undoubtedly the missing Qui Gon revelation, and I'm puzzled at its omission. I'm wondering if it was ever actually filmed, or rendered as the case may be, since it was Yoda in a room alone with the voice of Qui Gon. Perhaps Neeson turned down the offer to come back?

[Duke Togo]

So the Force doesn't apply here? I'm glad you're here to tell us these things. Chewie, take the professor into the back and plug him into the hyperdrive.

The biggest missing bit was undoubtedly the missing Qui Gon revelation, and I'm puzzled at its omission. I'm wondering if it was ever actually filmed, or rendered as the case may be, since it was Yoda in a room alone with the voice of Qui Gon. Perhaps Neeson turned down the offer to come back?

Classic, you just made my "Awesome People" list. Using The Duke's favorite Star Wars line earns big points with The Duke.

The Qui Gon scene is not in the shooting script, but from what I understand its in the book. Neeson had agreed to record audio for Episode II, but it turned out they were able to rework audio from Episode I for the lines they needed. So, who is to say if George even asked him to be in III?

[bsu legato]

When I find a copy of the "Making Of" book locally, the first thing I'll do is see what, if anything, it has to say about the Qui Gon scene.

[Hurin]

I urge them to please continue to make themselves look like they don't know what the hell they are talking about.

That sounds like a job for Hurin!

Ok, lets just clear up this myth right now... the dialog in Star Wars has ALWAYS been questionable.

So, no room here for degrees? Just more of the intellectually lazy, undiscerning "they're all the same" stuff? It's not even possible that, while the dialog in the original trilogy was clunky, the latter movies might be even worse? That's just an untenable position to you unworthy of debate? It's just a "myth" whose proponents are beneath contempt and merely demonstrate their ignorance of Harrison Ford quotes?

During the making of the first film it was Harrison Ford who said, "You can right this shite, George, but you sure can't say it".

Yes, he said that (though he probably said "write"). But, tell me, have you spoken with Harrison Ford about the dialogue in the newer films? Do you know for a fact that he doesn't consider the later dialogue even worse?

In case it's not clear, I'm pointing out that the Harrison Ford quote is pointless and irrelevant. Nobody claims that the original trilogy was a treasure trove of poetic dialog. But the original trilogy's sometimes stilted dialogue doesn't (in any way) excuse even worse dialog (written by Lucas without the coaching and interference by more talented writers) in the prequels.

Boldy, dogmatically asserting that the dialog in the prequels is no worse than the dialog in the original trilogy because Harrison Ford said so twenty years before the prequels were made. . . isn't exactly persuasive. In fact, it's downright irrelevant.

So, if you don't mind, I'll just keep going on believing the "myth" that the dialog in the prequels is (to some degree) more stilted and awkward than it was in the original trilogy, regardless of what Han Solo had to say about it a few decades ago.

H

P.S. I liked Revenge of the Sith, so I'm staying out of the rest of this stuff.

Edited May 21, 2005 by Hurin

[Duke Togo]

What gets me is ask any fan after seeing the movie, and ask them about not seeing Qui Gon. Is there anyone who doesn't agree having him appear at the end wouldn't have gotten the biggest applause of the entire film?

[Duke Togo]

So, no room here for degrees?

Sure there is, but you aren't fooling me into believing that you can see some "gray area" here. You can't have an open discussion with Prequel Hater/Raped Childhood fans. They've entered into the same twisted reality inhabited by women who show up for jury duty dressed up as a Federation officer and people who get married with the vows in Klingon.

Its a movie, its not real!

[Warmaker]

Cut scenes, from the "Making Of Revenge of the Sith" book, by way of DarthyMarkyMark on the Jedi Council Forums.

6, 7, 8-14, 25, 30, 32, 37-41: FedCruiser scenes cut (Grievous killing Shaak Ti, the Jedi using their lightsabers to escape GG, underwater swim, climb through shaft, many of R2's hangar gags, many Palpatine cliffhangers)

48: Mace greets Palpatine and the Jedi right after the crash-landing

56: Yoda, Obi-Wan and Mace discuss the Dark Side in Yoda's quarters

60: Bail and fellow Senators speak about the Senate

68-69: Obi-Wan tells Padme of his worries about Anakin and that he knows they're in love

71: Meeting with Organa, Mon Mothma and Padme

73: Anakin informs Palpatine that Obi-Wan soon will have Grievous' head

74: Jar Jar greets Anakin at Senate

75: Anakin confronts Padme

76-77: Republic cruiser arrives at Utapau

83: Obi-Wan chooses his lizard, Boga

86: Mace talks to Yoda on Kashyyyk, telling him of his plans to arrest Palpatine

88-89: Padme presents to Palpatine the Senators' petition

93: Utapau windmill

121: "crazy" Yoda and Chewbacca ambush an AT-ST

176: Yoda lands on Dagobah

I hate to sound very repetitive, but the blasted book discusses almost all these points

I immediately think, "Why on Earth would they cut these segments out? They explain so much!"

But then I remembered. The movie is pretty long already, at 2 hours 26 minutes. Still, I would gladly sit down an extra hour to see things fully fleshed out

Edited May 21, 2005 by Warmaker

[Hurin]

So, no room here for degrees?

Sure there is, but you aren't fooling me into believing that you can see some "gray area" here. You can't have an open discussion with Prequel Hater/Raped Childhood fans. They've entered into the same twisted reality inhabited by women who show up for jury duty dressed up as a Federation officer and people who get married with the vows in Klingon.

Its a movie, its not real!

Again, anyone who disagrees with you or dislikes the new movies is a somewhat psychotic, delusional nerd who is beneath contempt.

But, then again, I've already addressed this rather hypocritical, myopic, and essentially untenable position here, I won't sully this thread with it. Especially since you've spent all day making statement like this and then never really addressing any substantive criticizm of them. I'll just leave you to discuss the nature of the force and how it can be restored to balance. Because, after all, you're not a geek. And that's what non-geeks do.

[Duke Togo]

But then I remembered. The movie is pretty long already, at 2 hours 26 minutes. Still, I would gladly sit down an extra hour to see things fully fleshed out

The thing is, it doesn't come off as a 2 1/2 hour movie. It flies by, and by the time it was over I had to check my watch, I couldn't believe that much time went by.

[Duke Togo]

I'll just leave you to discuss the nature of the force and how it can be restored to balance. Because, after all, you're not a geek. And that's what non-geeks do.

Why do you come here, Hurin? To NOT discuss Macross? Ohhh, we are discussing a plot point! That makes us geeks!

No more discussing Star Wars, folks! Only geeks do that!

We must post this in the Macross section, so all non-geeks know not to discuss anything about Macross.

So tell us, Hurin, what can us non-geeks discuss? Maybe we need a world affairs forum, or maybe a sports forum on MacrossWorld. Maybe a forum dedicated to cars, and another for hot women. How about a hardware forum? Manly, non-geek stuff.

[Hurin]

I'll just leave you to discuss the nature of the force and how it can be restored to balance.  Because, after all, you're not a geek.  And that's what non-geeks do.  

Why do you come here, Hurin? To NOT discuss Macross? Ohhh, we are discussing a plot point! That makes us geeks!

No more discussing Star Wars, folks! Only geeks do that!

We must post this in the Macross section, so all non-geeks know not to discuss anything about Macross.

So tell us, Hurin, what can us non-geeks discuss? Maybe we need a world affairs forum, or maybe a sports forum on MacrossWorld. Maybe a forum dedicated to cars, and another for hot women. How about a hardware forum? Manly, non-geek stuff.

You don't get it do you? We're all geeks here. We're fans of a twenty year old anime who still buy toys well into adulthood. We're all at least reasonably knowledgable about Star Wars and we're here discussing it. Whether you acknowledge it or not, that makes you at least somewhat geeky.

It's actually you who is calling other geeks. And psychotic, delusional geeks at that. My only point is that it's largely hypocritical to do so. And you tend to do so because it (first and foremost) makes you feel superior, and (also important) allows you to dismiss a differing point of view without even needing to engage it.

We all have geeky tendencies here.

Let's be very clear here: You boldly posted an opinion as immutable fact, and challenged anyone to question it. Then essentially said that anyone who might do so must be an idiot. Then, when I took up the challenge, you simply called me a delusional nerd. . . as usual. I guess that's just the way you operate.

Edited May 21, 2005 by Hurin

[Duke Togo]

It's actually you who is calling other geeks.

Actually, I believe I called you a "fanboy".

[uminoken]

1.  Innappropriate use of slapstick humor in places that destroyed tension in key scenes.  Ok, I got a chuckle out of the SBD kicking R2.  But it killed the moment for me... our heros are captured and in jeopardy!  Let us bask in the danger for a moment.  A Roger Roger droid getting sarcastic with Grevious made him a lot less imposing than I thought he'd be.  Overall the Roger Roger and Super Battle Droids were entirely annoying.  The Rogers weren't nearly so bad in Ep. 1.

Most people semed to enjoy R2's scenes. It was (finally) humor that didn't revolve around fart jokes and bad puns. But hey, SW isn't supposed to be funny, right? Grevious I'll get to later on....

4.  Battles had no tactical flow.  The old movies all presented battles with a tactical objective.  Overarching orders were given, so you could follow who's supposed to do what... what multi-part and elaborate plan everyone had to follow in order to accomplish their goal.  You could see formations, tactics, and the flow of battle unfold as one side gained ground or lost it.  And you could see both sides make adjustments and maneuvers based on how the fight is going.  They felt like real war flicks in some respects, except set in a galaxy far, far away.  Hence the magic.

Not a whole lot of that in the Prequels.  It seems every battle exists only to show CG troopers shoot at someone or be shot by someone, or for starfighters to blow another up or be blown up.  There's no actual battle to follow.  It's just a vehicle to display CG effects and for getting the characters where they need to be... at the next saber fight.  I would have liked to have some "sense" to the battles.  Rather than absolute chaos with everyone rushing headlong at everyone else.  I keep forgetting why each battle scene is even significant.

Troopers also showed no use of formations, tactics or cover.  Total departure from how they're portrayed in Clone Wars.  Major departure from ground combat as portrayed or at least implied in the OT.  Bummer.

Nostalgia has clouded your vision. The OT had little in the way of what you describe as tactics. Like the Stormtroopers who charge into the Tantive IV with little use for cover or tactics? (Thats what Stormtroopers did, historically) Or how about the Battle of Hoth where Imperial Walkers merely....well, walk towards the line of Rebel trenches? But I assume that's different from, say, the Battle on Geonosis where Republic forces do pretty much the same thing when assaulting the docked Trade Fed ships. And the latter stages of the (space) Battle of Endor are pretty much the same kind of wild melee as we see in the Battle of Coruscant. In fact, we see little of the overall battle in both of these engagements, instead focusing on the characters and their exploits. And I seriously doubt you'd have difficulty remembering just what was at stake in all of the battles.

8.  A pretty weak score for a Star Wars film.  Some moments just felt off, or less dramatic than they could have been, because the music just wasn't there... or it was just generic ambience music.

Most people I've talk to seem to consider this Williams' strongest score in years. I personally rate "Battle of the Heroes" up there with any track from the OT.

10.  Old people should not spin, flip, and leap abo5ut like tazmanian devils on crack.  Not Palpy.  Not Dooku.  And to a lesser extent, not Yoda.  It just looks wrong.  I don't care how powerful they are in the force.  Palpy in ROTJ didn't need to move very much.  It in fact better showed how incredibly powerful he was.  Also because it's unbecoming and makes him look absolutely stupid.  And somehow, his makeup actually looks worse and cheaper than it did in ROTJ.

So the Force doesn't apply here? I'm glad you're here to tell us these things. Chewie, take the professor into the back and plug him into the hyperdrive.

Oh, and Palps vs Yoda rocked. It was every bit the "wizards battle" that critics described when they balked at the sight of Yoda weilding his lightsaber in Clones.

Totally agree with you on all the droid comments, but my theater loved em

Gotta disagree with you in the battleplans department. In the OT all the battles clearly had a goal (that was usually said often) with all emphasis on it.

ANH - Torpedo down Death Star with all the other fighters for cover

ESB - Empire-Hoth's shield generators, Rebels-repel the invasion

RotJ - the entire Endor campagin, ground and space. Virtually every space scene has an objective. Start with the trap, defend the fleet until the bunker blows, "give the fighters more time" until the big boom. Clear objectives without losing focus. And they wre all done with models - and that is why I will forever hold all movie space battles to RotJ standards.

Having seen it again knowing the score edits, it was much better. I think the insertions (the re-entry, Duel of the Fates) actually worked better in Sith than in the movies they were written for and this time I can remember which cues go where unilike the last 2 sonic wallpaper scores! Great job by Williams, now if they had taken better care of the soundtrack release...

I still rolled my eyes when Dooku leaped over the stairwell before the battle. What point is using the Force then? Just to show off? I've always thought it would be better to stay on the ground while fighting (as Anakin found out the hard way). Speed with the Force I can see but when you're in the air, you're an easy target.

Having said that I still loved the epic Yoda/Palpatine battle.

After reading all the deleted scenes I hope Lucas releases extended cuts of the prequels. There were SO many scenes that the prequels would have greatly benefited from, but especially Sith

[Hurin]

ESB - Empire-Hoth's shield generators, Rebels-repel the invasion

Actually, my favorite part of the Battle of Hoth is that the Rebel soldiers aren't even trying to "repel" the invasion. Rather, they're bravely sacrificing themselves to buy time for the evacuation. They all hold their ground until Leia gives the order to sound the retreat, and only then do they run for the transports themselves, while getting slaughtered by Imperial walkers.

It's the selfless sacrifice that makes that battle so cool.

[Hurin]

There's been some talk here about Luke becoming a disciple of the living force instead of either a Jedi or Sith. Thereby restoring balance to the force. Yet, I'm not sure that Luke sees it that way based on what he says at the end of Jedi. "You've failed your highness. I am a Jedi. Like my father before me."

He clearly identifies himself with the Jedi. Trained by Yoda and Obi-Wan. . . old-school Jedi. It seems clear that back then, the Jedi were good. The Sith bad, and there was no middle-ground to be had. The title of the episode (RotJ) is also a hint regarding who is the good side, and how Luke is to be identified.

But, then, of course, you have to take into account Lucas's own views and how they may have changed over the past two decades. I really don't think he envisioned all these "shades of grey" in the force when he wrote the OT. He wrote the OT with a clearly defined good and bad side. Along with a light and dark side to the force. These newer movies reflect his more "nuanced" views as an older man. And thus introduces concepts that don't fit in as well with the "less nuanced" OT.

H

Late Edit: Okay, I didn't explain that well. Let me try again:

OT: Good and evil are clearly defined. The Emperor is pure evil with no valid "point of view." Vader is evil too, but redeems himself when he kills the Emperor. Luke is the good guy and represents the "Return of the Jedi" which are unquestionably the good guys and an ancient order of heros that were tragically and treasonously assasinated.

New: Nobody is fully good and nobody is fully evil. Even the Emperor has his point of view and it seems that the Jedi may have in fact deserved it. Instead of Vader killing the Emperor and Luke restoring the Jedi Order, Vader is instead fulfilling a prophecy about "balance" and actually taking part in destroying both Jedi and Sith. It is good that the Jedi are dead and Luke doesn't represent the "return" of them. Despite what the movie title says.

Now, that latter one may be the new, and valid way that Lucas looks at it. It may be his intended vision. But I think a person would have to be pretty guillable to believe that this is all what was being portrayed in RotJ twenty years ago. And, just on principle, I think it's pretty messy to go back and drastically change the entire meaning of a movie's conclusion retroactively.

Edited May 21, 2005 by Hurin

[Sundown]

Most people semed to enjoy R2's scenes. It was (finally) humor that didn't revolve around fart jokes and bad puns. But hey, SW isn't supposed to be funny, right? Grevious I'll get to later on....

I thought some of them were okay by themselves. Just didn't agree with when and where they were placed. And they were a little in your face.

Just how long is the duel supposed to last? It was long enough to show that Dooku was tough, but Anakin was better once he gave in to his anger. And Anakin's motivation to kill? How about his (symbolic) emasculation at Dooku's hands in the previous film? That, and I'm sure the Dark Side had something to say about it. As we've been told many times before, its a slippery slope once you start down the dark path.

Umm... Longer? At least a few more moves, I suppose. Tell you the truth, I was expecting that scene to have occured much llater in the movie, and Anakin to have been much more angry, conflicted. Perhaps that being the moment where he falls. But I definitely didn't see him having to do with Mace's death coming... which was good except for some of the acting.

Umm...Abrupt? Anakin began turning to the Dark Side halfway through Clones, and he struggles with it for much of the running time of Revenge. How is that abrupt? As for Anakin's specific reasons for turning, I think Palpatine did an admirable job of muddying the waters, making it nearly impossible for Anakin to distinguish which side was right. And love does make people act irrational, dontcha know?

Abrupt because he actually seems to recognize "good" and move towards it for a moment, and then becomes pure evil the next. After finally seeing him be something besides being arrogant, whiny, and annoying, I'm just a little dissappointed to see him drop it so quickly. Yes, the fall's been hinted at and a long time coming. But the character change itself is rather abrupt. That's just how it seems to feel, and exposition still doesn't change how it plays to me dramatically.

At any rate, love doesn't make people act like psychopaths that murder children who aren't directly connected to the harm or well being of their loved one at a simple command of a master they thought was "a good, kind man" two days before. Especially when right before that, he acknowledges "what have I done?!" Apparently to Anakin, the appropriate action that immediately follows such remorse is to kill children.

I could believe him defending Palpatine, and being responsible for Windu's death. I thought that was pretty well done, if Jackson didn't ruin the moment by screaming like a girl. I just couldn't follow that the next action item is: kill kids. Maybe if they left out his profession of remorse, and just show him resigned and defeated. Still would be a hard sell... to me anyway.

Nostalgia has clouded your vision. The OT had little in the way of what you describe as tactics.

The Nostalgia card. Except that as a kid, I didn't care about "tactics", "battle flow", and "pacing". I just wanted to see X-Wings and the Falcon blow stuff up. And I was satisfied. I knew the battles captured my imagination, but I didn't know why. It wasn't until more recently that I've watched the films again and appreciated how well they borrowed from real life engagements for that touch of believability and authenticity.

Like the Stormtroopers who charge into the Tantive IV with little use for cover or tactics?

I'm not speaking of entirely of the Imperials. I'm speaking of the Rebels. Formations. Orders. Communication and coordination. A battle plan. Some attempt to use cover. Even the Imperials looked like they had specifically well-defined objective to accomplish-- destroy the generator-- defend the bunker-- and we could see them execute it. We were privvy to the exact importance of each of these targets and what the consequence of losing or winning them were.

I'm not saying that EP3's battles didn't have purpose as a background fact. We just weren't allowed to watch it unfold. We usually get dropped either in the middle of a battle or cut away in the middle of another. The audience isn't clued in on the big picture... hence why some folks feel that none of the battles have any sort of climax. It just ended up appearing to be show for the sake of show.

I agree that the battles in OT eventually deteriorated into chaos. But they aways started with some semblance of organization, plan, and goal in the beginning. And in the chaos, the objective is still accomplished, usually by our heroes as they either follow their original plan or improvise if it fails.

And yes, the Imperials tended to be a little dense on strategy. I suppose it makes sense that the Clones follow suit, except Clone Wars shows the exact opposite, strangely. I will give you that Ep 2 has a bit more of that with the troopers, and we can see their objectives and intentions better.

And the latter stages of the (space) Battle of Endor are pretty much the same kind of wild melee as we see in the Battle of Coruscant. In fact, we see little of the overall battle in both of these engagements, instead focusing on the characters and their exploits. And I seriously doubt you'd have difficulty remembering just what was at stake in all of the battles.

The Battle of Endor shows the ebb and flow of a large space fleet battle. It's actually one of the most grand and tactical space battles on film. Whether those tactics are realistic or workable is another thing entirely. Ackbars' chattering helps us to follow just what's going on, and even up to the end, where you say is only chaos, there were constant commands to shift focus of attack on this ship or that. Although we see snippits, we see just the right snippets to feel as if one side is winning, losing, and what the situation looks like. Ep. 3. Just shows troopers shooting, craft flying and exploding, ad naseum.

We end up hopping in the middle of the Battle of Coruscant, knowing only that the Jedi needed to save Palpatine. Why are those massive fleets there? Don't know. What is the overall objective for both fleets, and what their assignments were? Not sure. Shore is pretty though.

I'm not saying that every battle needs to be broken down for the silly war buff in me. I'm saying that I'd have at least been able to follow the flow of one major engagement in the movie. To know a few of the ships, their importance, the concern of those involved in the fight of losing or destroying a capital ship because of what it means in the ongoing battle.

I honestly can't remember what most of those planets were fought for... other than droids were there, that Grevious was at one of them or other, and that they were just a big set up for the Jedi to get individually ganked. I guess that's actually the only real purpose, really, as far as Palpatine's concerned.

Given their over-the-top nature, I wouldn't expect the films be be held to whatever standards the Clone War shorst set for Gervious or any other character. Grevious coughs because he's not some perfect cybernetic creation, as if the technology wasn't perfected. Or perhaps its akin to the phantom limb phenomenon. See, here we go again with the 2nd tier SW bad guy idealization. The how and why of Grevious and his origins are really of little consequence in terms of the story. I too wasn't a huge fan of his voice, but it did somehwat suit his character as he was an overblown coward at heart. The "So uncivilized" line was golden, however. One of my favorites in the film.

Glad we agree on something. So why is he an overblown coward? I don't mind not knowing everything about him. I do mind not knowing the reasons he's gimpy, and the things that take away from his scary bad guy appeal. If we inject a potentially irritating weaknesses, they need to be compelling and have some reason, perhaps showing something else that's admirable, interesting, or formidable. Else he's just a weaker character.

I dunno, might just be all the hype over him that's been played, and my expectations of him as the butcher of Jedi. And finding out that he's just a cliche cyborg villian with bronchitis.

I thought they were hit and miss, but when they missed I tend to blam Portman this time 'round. She just sucks and/or didn't care.

Yeah, I couldn't tell whose fault it was exactly. She seemed... off. But she seemed like she was trying, if trying meant just making forlorn faces. I kept wondering if she just couldn't play off Hayden that well, or that the dialogue and direction just didn't give her much to work with.

There were no subtitles in Empire. You know...Empire, the film SW geeks universally hail as being "perfect?"

Just because it wasn't in Empire doesn't mean this film couldn't have used it. There were plenty of places for it, in my opinion, especially when it concerns the fate of all species involved. Let's remind folks of the scope and strangeness of what's at stake. Besides, Empire didn't have much dialogue with aliens, besides Yoda. And Vader mainly had a one-way conversation with the bounty hunters. This movie had chatter with Aliens at various points.

Subtitles aren't necessary of course. If we can follow the conversation without them, it still works. I just wanted to hear more alien-speak, okay?

Most people I've talk to seem to consider this Williams' strongest score in years. I personally rate "Battle of the Heroes" up there with any track from the OT.

Not sure what he's worked on lately. Maybe it's only a few scenes that felt off, and I didn't take notice of the ones that were on. I suspect the reason why the Anakin lava scene was so powerful was because of the score.

Doesn't Lucas get enough criticism for these films being glorified toy commercials? This time around, more than any of the prequels, the hardware knows its place and stays in the background unless it serves the story.

I dunno. I'd like a few more galmour shots of the main starfighters and vehicles used. I guess I wanted to see a little more of the ARC fighters. Lucas might put them in the background, but he's still going to make a toy out of every last bloody one of them. I almost wonder if they don't spend any time on any one vehicle so they can cram in room for more in total. I guess I'm just a cynic.

So the Force doesn't apply here? I'm glad you're here to tell us these things. Chewie, take the professor into the back and plug him into the hyperdrive.

Oh, and Palps vs Yoda rocked. It was every bit the "wizards battle" that critics described when they balked at the sight of Yoda weilding his lightsaber in Clones.

Sigh. Old people spinning about just looks bad and makes me want to giggle, not buckle in fear at the Sith Lord's dreadful power. ROTJ Palpy didn't need to flip, spin, and dance and was no less a villian for his lack of mobility. Why now? I guess 20 years has slowed him down a little, but irregardless... spastic old men is bad in my personal book.

The Palpatine and Yoda fight was somewhat better than Ep 2's. I loved the way Yoda slammed the Imperial guards. The saber parts there were a tad silly though.

The biggest missing bit was undoubtedly the missing Qui Gon revelation, and I'm puzzled at its omission. I'm wondering if it was ever actually filmed, or rendered as the case may be, since it was Yoda in a room alone with the voice of Qui Gon. Perhaps Neeson turned down the offer to come back?

Thought that odd, too. I expected to see a blue glowey Qui Gon, at least after Yoda's snippet about it. Or perhaps instead of it. But now how does Anakin learn of this "new" discipline? I think I would have preferred it if Lucas left it more vague... or just attributed this to happening with all uber Jedi who are emotionally prepared for their deaths.

Strange to know Obiwan learns of this from Qui Gon, who from what Yoda says appears to have acheived it, when in fact it was Qui Gon's death and body that made us question why don't all Jedi dissappear. Or maybe I just misheard that bit.

-Al

[areaseven]

Just wondering, why was Ahmed Best listed on the end credits if Jar-Jar Binks had absolutely zero lines throughout the film?

[Myriad]

Just wondering, why was Ahmed Best listed on the end credits if Jar-Jar Binks had absolutely zero lines throughout the film?

He had one line.

I believe it was "excuse me".

[Uxi]

Hmm where to start...

The imbalance in the Force is Sidious, not the Jedi. A properly trained Jedi acts with the balance of the Force in mind. Ultimately selfless and the means justify the end. The Sith care nothing about the balance, using the Force to only augment themselves. Ultimately selfish and the ends justify the means.

The Jedi were plain hoodwinked by Sidious, from Ep1. He was deliberately making the Jedi look bad through the inception and conduct of the whole war, to undercut their credibility, with the war itself having no purpose other than to catch Jedi in the middle.. The novelization goes into far more detail in that Sidious also backed them into a corner. His dictatorship was legitimate with his control (if not acceleration) of the corruption in the Senate. The only chance the Jedi have at that point is to move against the (legitimate) government, which make them quite legal enemies of the state and destroy what (legal) credibility they have left. The difference between law and justice still exists... but the Sith have managed to twist the law onto their side.

The battles in the Clone Wars in Ep3? They ARE pointless. The whole war was a ruse never intended to have any other point than to catch some Jedi in the middle of the meatgrinder and spread them through the galaxy surrounded by clones for Order 66. Nominally, the battles had their purposes:

Coruscant - Separatists trying to escape, Republic trying to interdict/destroy/rescue the Chancellor.

Kashyyk - Droids invade the wookies and seize the area (city). Wookies/Clones Defend.

Utapau - Clones: Attack the droids and destroy their stronghold. Droids: Defend

Grevious' coughing is nothing more than a nod to the Clone Wars cartoon. Another disposable puppet of Sidious. Just like Dooku. Just like Maul. Ultimately, just like Anakin. And just like Luke WOULD have been, had the wind went that way (and does in Dark Empire). Just like the Clone Wars themselves, they're all pawns to Sidious' schemes. Dooku's purpose is to be Anakin's first cold blooded murder. Like Sidious wants Luke to do later on in almost the exact same circumstances. Maybe if Dooku had been Anakin's dad, it would have THE exact same.

With Mace, Anakin also faced a similar choice to Luke but again chose differently. Or the same, depending on your POV. Mace had won the duel and was getting ready to finish off Sidious. Sidious was getting ready to finish off Luke. One made the right choice... one made the wrong one, which is what the contrast between Luke in the OT and Anakin in the PT are all about.

There is still a distinct GOOD and BAD in the Force, consistent in both trilogies. Being selfish is with the BAD, being selfless is with the good. Anakin falls for selfish reasons, to keep those he cares about for HIMSELF and not for their own sake. He doesn't want to spare Padme (or his mother) from pain and death, he wants to spare his own loss and Palpatine lures him with the means to that end.

[Oihan]

The film was a fine addition to the Star Wars saga and I thoroughly enjoyed it.  Of all three prequels, I can safely say the best is Episode III Revenge of the Sith.  Going even further, I firmly believe RoTS is better than Episode VI Return of the Jedi, but weaker than A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back.  Episode III will definitely enjoy more viewing on DVD J

Praise

Battle of Coruscant – This is easily my favorite capital ship space battle of all the six Star Wars films.  Modern special effects have finally allowed a clear and more precise picture of what capital ship warfare looks like in Star Wars.  Never before have capital ship brawls looked this good, easily eclipsing the battles in Babylon 5 (IMO, the previous title holder).  The journey of the two Jedi Interceptors was a brilliant way to follow the battle.  In particular, the opening scene introduces the battle in both an immediate and extremely dramatic way as the two Jedi Interceptors literally dive in.  Visually, the entire sequence was a milestone.  Even the fighter dogfights were amazing (though the Battle of Yavin and Jango vs. Ben still hold the trophys for best Star Wars dogfight IMO).  All it lacked was the compelling, narrative climax of the fleet engagement in Return of the Jedi.  However, the Battle of Coruscant was not the same kind of battle and never pretended to be.  It did things on it’s own terms and did it better IMO.

Duels – Good gawd this film has a lot of action!  Ben&Anakin vs. Dooku, Ben&Anakin vs. Grevious, Ben vs. Grevious, Mace vs. Sidious, Yoda vs. Sidious, and Ben vs. Anakin.  Not to mention Anakin, Ben, and Yoda all featured in numerous scenes carving up droids or clones.  Not only were the saber duels numerous, but almost every fight was unique.  Ben&Anakin vs. Dooku was again a chess match with some damn fine upward stance fighting, Mace vs. Sidious was a down-and-dirty brawl, the two slugging it out with little near zero force powers to cloud the fight.  Watching Ben systematically smackdown Grevious’s blade-spinning meat grinder was thoroughly enjoyable.  Yoda really showed off some power as did Sidious in the Senate duel.  Lastly, Ben and Anakin fighting was so amazing and easily the most emotional duel of the film.  I loved every duel and the pacing of each one was almost perfect.  Rarely did they feel overly long and even more amazing was the freshness of each duel, especially in light of the number of duels.

Genuinely Emotive – This is probably one of the best Star Wars films for evoking some true emotion from the audience.  The previous two prequels did little to convey any convincing drama or have the audience actually feel for many of the characters.  Episode III certainly gave an effort to create some tense drama and truly tragic developments.  Yoda gave perhaps the most emotional performance of the film, with both Ian Mcdiarmid and Ewan McGregor also adding well needed doses of stronger acting.  Anakin himself was also a source of good drama.  Christensen’s performance wasn’t outstanding, but the story itself allowed the audience to feel a true sense of pity for the character, a reaction equally surprising given that the character is generally unlikable.

Locales and Technology – Given the grand scale of all the Star Wars films, it’s rather unusual that the RoTS film feels like one of the most epic in scope.  The many different planets and sets really grant a great sense of the grand universe of Star Wars.  Mustafar, Kashyyyk, Utapau, and the Coruscant locales were all thoughtfully created and visualized to perfection.  Each world was a believable and fully realized place, done with the proper style and theme needed for each scene.  Episode III also featured a fanboys delight of amazing technology.  From the big space ships, to the ground vehicles and new weapons, there was plenty to enjoy.  The energy staves of Grevious’s entourage, the wheel bike, and Grevious himself were some of the best new displays of Star Wars technology yet seen in the series.  The clones continued to play a great role and the film featured a broad diversity of different clone troops in all kinds of specialized roles (including camoflauge armor, what a concept!).  The world of Kashyyyk was a welcome sight given the prominence of Chewbacca in Star Wars.

Merging with the Original Trilogy – More than the other prequels, this third film successfully merges the prequels and the original trilogy together in numerous inventive ways.  The design lineage of the Venator Star Destroyers (including the removal of the red Republic colors in the final shots), the Correlian Corvette making appearances (including the delightful white corridors making a shot), the role of Bail Organna, the closure of Ben and Yoda’s characters, the death of Padme when both the twins were born, and naturally Anakin’s dismemberment and return as Darth Vader.  By the time you get to the end, you’re ready to watch episodes IV to VI.

Criticisms

Extraneous Scene – The entire battle of Kashyyyk (great to hear this name pronounced at last) felt very extraneous.  As a fanboy, I have no real complaints and I loved seeing the wookies in battle.  As a fan of film, this entire sequence could have been cut, leaving in just the sequence that shows the murder attempt upon Yoda.  The time could have been put to better use developing more characters, adding more to Anakin’s downfall, or any number of more important story arcs.

Dialogue – Once again, Star Wars stays true to all that it is, even the faults.  At many points the dialogue was again weak and certainly could have used some re-drafting and editing.  Especially in the first half of the film, there were several moments that made even the most ardent fan cringe.  Luckily, the love story between Padme and Anakin, though weak once again, was infinitely more beleiveable and tolerable than in AoTC.

Minor Quibbles – I wanted to see Qui Gon’s apparition speaking to Obi-Wan Kenobi.  It would have been a tidy way to give Ben’s character more closure for the prequels.  I also would have liked some more history on Sidious and Yoda.  These two characters feature so much in the entire story arc, yet we know so very little about where they came from, their history, or even what race Yoda is and how Palpatine learned the dark side powers.  There are some other complaints, but I’m becoming a nitpicking fanboy at this point.  I hate concentrating on the negative, especially when I genuinely loved the film, so I’m going to stop here.

I'd easily give Episode III Revenge of the Sith 9 out of 10.  One of my top favorite Star Wars films.

I couldn't have said any of that better myself. I never really felt any sympathy for Vader, but after seeing Episode III I had a lot of sympathy for him. The guy was only doing what he thought was best at the time for Padme out of love, which turned out to be the wrong thing to do. How could you not be sympathetic to that? I really enjoyed the movie...more so cause of how it evoked emotions...most movies don't do that for me. The only thing I disagree with you on, Mr March, is the love story. I didn't think it was bad at all. But yea...I saw it tonight and loved it...and I'm not much of a Star Wars fan either...so that says something to me at least.

Edited May 21, 2005 by Oihan

[Golden Arms]

I just Got back from this Movie and it was so bad on so many levels I can't that I paid $8 for this crap. Please excuse my rambling its 5: a.m. So where to start? Dialogue Terrible, Way too much CGI/ special effects for the soulless purpose of showing What can be done with Cpu's (I knew this going in though), Action scenes with no emotion or depth, Acting horrendous ( only exceptions were Obi One and Palpatine). All of the Lightsaber Duels were pretty generic to outright bland, nothing really stood out in any of them. The best one was b/ Palps and Yoda. I think this movie suffered with a oversaturation of visuals. Too much going on in the background and foreground. Lucas spent way too much time on scenes with little to no consequence. I think the acting could have been better if the actors were given direction from a director. So I can't blame Portman or any other actors because it is the directors job to get anything resembling acting from them.

BTW has anyone else seen this movie using a digital projector? I'm kinda curious wheter or not if there is much of a discernable difference in picture quality.

[Guppy]

I just Got back from this Movie and it was so bad on so many levels I can't that I paid $8 for this crap. Please excuse my rambling its 5: a.m. So where to start? Dialogue Terrible, Way too much CGI/ special effects for the soulless purpose of showing What can be done with Cpu's (I knew this going in though), Action scenes with no emotion or depth, Acting horrendous ( only exceptions were Obi One and Palpatine). All of the Lightsaber Duels were pretty generic to outright bland, nothing really stood out in any of them. The best one was b/ Palps and Yoda. I think this movie suffered with a oversaturation of visuals. Too much going on in the background and foreground. Lucas spent way too much time on scenes with little to no consequence. I think the acting could have been better if the actors were given direction from a director. So I can't blame Portman or any other actors because it is the directors job to get anything resembling acting from them.

BTW has anyone else seen this movie using a digital projector? I'm kinda curious wheter or not if there is much of a discernable difference in picture quality.

sorry you didn't like it. I guess it was the nature of this trilogy that the first 2 films were just setting the scene for ep 3, so while they were boring ep 3 was an amphetamine gobbling sensory overload.

And just my take on this 'living force' argument. All this has just been generated by 30 years of fan chatter. Luke facing off against the emperor is a simply good vs evil, not living force vs jedi vs sith, etc etc. Even from Lucas's own mouth he says he wrote these as a homage to the swashbuckling matinee films of the 30's & 40's so it's a waste of time to read into it too much. Plus it sucks the joy out of it.

[MSW]

I didn't hate it as much as the previous two prequels...but certainly don't love it, and definetly don't think it was near as good of a film as some people claim it is.

It really needed a rewrite or two. The film is overly long with rather painfully amatureish scenes and paceing. Lots of dramatic potential is waisted simply because the story fractures on way to many locations, and time waisted switching between them.

For example after Anikin turns to Vader and storms the Jedi concil, he briefly returns to Padme. He hops off his ship, tells her the Jedi have turned against the Republic, she is confused and concerned. And then in a moment of pure amatureish storytelling he quickly switches gears saying he is off to the volcano planet, hops back onto his ship and flies off setting up the final acts of the film...this whole scene drops the dramic ball so to speak, only serves as exposistion set up for why Vader is on the volcano planet and little else...her confucion and concern over the jedi apparent betrayal is quickly forgotten. And why Vader abruptly brings up his transfer to the volcano planet at the end of the scene is a real mystery, rather then stateing it at the begining ("I don't have much time Padme, Palpatine ordered me to the volcano planet to end the war once and for all" or somesuch) which would give the scene a better dramatic tension and focus.

The whole wookie planet thing could easily have been lifted from the film. we get a nice CG intro to the location, see the build up to a battle, and the first skirmishes...then the whole thing is promptly forgotten until order 66 is given...in the end it adds NOTHING to the film besides pointless eyecandy and inside jokes concerning my favorite character Chewbacca (who seems to have been wearing the exact same charasmatic ammo belt for longer then even the rebel ships of the OT have been in service...must be a good luck charm...and a smelly one at that )

I have not seen the clone wars cartoon...but the droid general guy seems to have been waisted in this film...would have been better to replace him with Dooku, or at least merge the two characters together (maybe give the old Dooku guy extra robotic limbs and such so he doesn't look so out of place doing all those flips and crap)...but as I said the film needed a rewrite or two, smooth over some of the haphazard story fractureing, drop the pointlessly waisted scenes, and maintain focus the dramatic tension.

Overall better then episodes 1 and 2...a bit better then I expected...but nowhere as good as it could have been.

[Noriko Takaya]

Dooku's purpose is to be Anakin's first cold blooded murder.

Then what do you call the encampment of dead Tusken Raiders on Tatooine? Target practice? Granted, they had a hand in Shmi's death, but Anakin murdered them all (women and children included) just the same.

[Mr March]

*snip*

I couldn't have said any of that better myself. I never really felt any sympathy for Vader, but after seeing Episode III I had a lot of sympathy for him. The guy was only doing what he thought was best at the time for Padme out of love, which turned out to be the wrong thing to do. How could you not be sympathetic to that? I really enjoyed the movie...more so cause of how it evoked emotions...most movies don't do that for me. The only thing I disagree with you on, Mr March, is the love story. I didn't think it was bad at all. But yea...I saw it tonight and loved it...and I'm not much of a Star Wars fan either...so that says something to me at least.

Thank you Oihan. Actually, the love story in both AoTC and RoTS wouldn't have been nearly that difficult to stomach if the dialogue wasn't so bad. All that would have been required was a rewrite and it would have been acceptable. I feel it's the dialogue and the actors having to try to convincingly deliver such poor dialogue that hurt the whole story arc. However, in Sith, we get to see the end of Anakin and Padme's relationship and the dialogue was spot on. This redemmed much of the third film IMO.

I'm pretty much a hardcore Star Wars film fan, so I loved AoTC and RoTS. Don't really care for the EU, but I do like some of the PC games and I often buy ever book I can that features info on the spaceships. So I'm hooked. It's nice to hear that other less-ardent fans thought Episode III was great too

[Mr March]

I've always felt the imbalance in the force was all the force users with the exception of Qui Gon Jinn. Everyone, including the Jedi order, Palpatine, Dooku, Maul, Ben, and Yoda are all using the force for their own ends. Usually, this revolves around preserving the Old Republic or supplanting it.

But the force itself is change and it seems of all the Jedi, only Qui Gon understood this. The Republic was stagnating as was the all the races living within it. In the force, the Jedi had held a monopoly for centuries and none of them delved into the living force nor followed it's path as Qui Gon did. In order for there to be growth and change, a balance had to be brought back into the fold. Anakin was the key to that change, first destroying the Jedi in the prequels (thus destroying the static monopoly of force theology) and then destroying the Sith in the original trilogy (removing an equally static monopoly that served no growth in the force). It then left both the force in a new found balance and the galaxy itself in a stage of rebirth, politically and culturally.

Personally, I love the idea of the force as an allegory for humanity. Despite every step humanity has taken to keep itself static and rigid (whether it's laws, oppressive/stagnant government, or religion), humanity will always change and grow in spite of itself. Unless humanity destroys itself, through the death of birth or elimination of all life, it will continue to change and grow toward some end in spite of everything done to contain it.

[Uxi]

Dooku's purpose is to be Anakin's first cold blooded murder.

Then what do you call the encampment of dead Tusken Raiders on Tatooine? Target practice? Granted, they had a hand in Shmi's death, but Anakin murdered them all (women and children included) just the same.

Tuskens versus Dooku is the difference between white hot rage and passion taking over versus a good moment for premeditation and consideration.

2nd ("hot" blooded) versus 1st ("cold" blooded) degree murder.

Edited May 21, 2005 by Uxi

[Hurin]

I've always felt the imbalance in the force was all the force users with the exception of Qui Gon Jinn.

You've always felt this way? Or you've felt this way since TPM when the prophecy regarding balance was first mentioned and the end of RotJ was changed from "Luke ends the Empire and the Jedi return when Vader kills the evil Emperor" to "Balance is restored to the force."

I like Uxi's explanation as it retains the original meaning to the end of the RotJ. That was a fantastic post, Uxi!

[Duke Togo]

I like Uxi's explanation as it retains the original meaning to the end of the RotJ. That was a fantastic post, Uxi!

You do realize three Star Wars movies have come out since RotJ, right?

[Hurin]

I like Uxi's explanation as it retains the original meaning to the end of the RotJ.  That was a fantastic post, Uxi!

You do realize three Star Wars movies have come out since RotJ, right?

Yes, and as I've said, the ending of Jedi meant something very distinct 20 years ago. And you have to be pretty guillable to believe that Lucas had this "restoring balance to the force" in mind when he wrote RotJ back then.

You obviously don't think anything is problematic about changing the meaning of the ending of a film (or, indeed, an entire trilogy of films) twenty years after the fact. But, then again, you don't see anything problematic with anything Star Wars related. To do so might make you a "Fan Boy". . . you'd rather just sit in your chair and uncritically drool over whatever Lucas has decided his films are saying this week.

At least try to grasp the basic point I'm trying to make before baiting me again. Your baiting would be much more effective if you would put a minimal amount of effort into it.

Edit: Uxi's well thought-out and documented (via film novelizations, etc.) interpretation of the prophecy retains the meaning of RotJ from twenty years ago. Your "Luke isn't really Jedi but a mix of Sith and Jedi, thus restoring balance" interpretation really contradicts a lot, including, oh, I don't know, the first three movies and even the freakin' title of the last OT one ("Return of the Jedi). I think everyone would agree (except maybe you) that Lucas shouldn't directly contradict the original films when making sequels (or in the case, prequels). With Uxi's interpretation, Lucas doesn't contradict them. In yours, he does. So I'm going with Uxi's.

Edited May 21, 2005 by Hurin

[Uxi]

The prequels purpose wasn't to redefine the original trilogy, it was to add scope and contrast. The prequels VALIDATE the original trilogy, they don't contradict them (fanboy minutia aside).

Ultimately they show that Luke and Anakin faced the exact same choices at various points but Luke chooses good and Anakin chooses evil. That Luke's choices are able to drag Anakin out of the darkness and fulfill his destiny is the larger arc over that brings all 6 together. The purpose Lucas had in setting up Anakin as a kid in Ep 1 was to show he had a loving family life with his mother and that we couldn't blame his fall to darkness on his childhood.

While different circumstances surrounded them, Luke and Anakin both faced a war and came into their power during their wars. Both seethed with hatred for the Sith Lord who took their hands. The moment of truth for each is when they face their defeated Sith Lord pawn of the true threat. Anakin chooses to kill Tyranus while Luke decides he can't kill Vader. Both have Palpatine whispering into their ear because THAT action must be a conscious choice and not reflexive.

The novelization of RotJ gives better treatment to Luke's dillemma. He feels his father is gone by the time of their duel and wonders if there is any reason left to not kill the evil thing in front of him... but he sees two paths... one that leads into darkness and one that doesn't. Anakin DOES briefly bother with the introspection of his choices, but chooses the power to selfishly defy the inevitable loss of his loved ones.

[Hurin]

The novelization of RotJ gives better treatment to Luke's dillemma.  He feels his father is gone by the time of their duel and wonders if there is any reason left to not kill the evil thing in front of him...  but he sees two paths... one that leads into darkness and one that doesn't.  Anakin DOES briefly bother with the introspection of his choices, but chooses the power to selfishly defy the inevitable loss of his loved ones.

I thought about re-reading the RotJ novelizatoin for the first time in about ten years. But does it really hold up after RotS? I remember a lot of explicit introspection with Vader. Is any of that contradicted by Sith or what we now know about him? Or, is it left painfully vague now that we know how much detail it could have had?

Part of me wishes they'd bring the original author of the novel back to work some of the threads from the prequel into the novel. He did such a good job on it originally. But that would really represent more futzing with stuff in a manner that I usually dislike!

Best part of the novel: As Luke is leaning over Vader with Vader's helmet off, Vader sorta drifts off into a daydream of warm sunshine, flowers, all the things he denied himself. . . and then feels spring rain on his lips. . . but it's salty. He opens his eyes and sees Luke quietly crying over his father, and he is ashamed and momentarily horrified at the thought of what Luke must be seeing. But then, he reaches up, and gently pinches Luke's arm, saying gently: "Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter."

I wish it had made it into the film.

B