Revenge of the Sith

[Dobber]

The thing about the Jedi Council and Anakin I found very interesting and not really insulting to be honest. Granted I've only read the novel and not seen the film but in the novel part of the reason they didn't allow Anakin to have a voice in the council or any say was that they didn't want him on the council. His outburst in the council was a prime example of why as well. Allowing Anakin to voice his opinion in the council would basicly be the same as giving Palp a vote and this was stated. In the novel they also take noticed of how Anakin is actually speaking as well. He uses the world "we" a few times and that's referign to Palp's office in that he's apart of it. He's already clearly identifying himself with Palp's office, as apart of it, not just there to report back to Palp himself which is what he was there for. The Jedi were basicly forced to put Anakin on the council as well.

A thing I found interesting about the novel is that at times it seems Anakin knows why the Jedi Council doesn't trust him, and why they even fear him. He basicly buys into Palps talk cause that is what he wants to hear even though he knows it's wrong. He wants to be free to do whatever he wants and when he's finally given that freedom he goes off and we see what happens. The Jedi might have been arrgoant to a degree but didn't need to be destoryed the way they were.

Not sure how well the movie gets these things across though. I thought the novel was great by getting into the heads of the characters and showing their emotion and Anakin's fall. What I really like at one point it was made clear, via Yoda, that a Sith can not make a Jedi fall. That Anakin choose this path himself. Palp might have pushed him but in the end it was clearly Anakin's choice in the end and his own selfishness that caused him to fall.

It did seem he put himself in certain situations to cause himself grief. He could have told Palp no but his idea of loyality made him not do that. Had he just talked about his problems and feelings eariler I doubt things would have gotten so bad for him. Doubt he would have been kicked out but would have been helped with his control. Obiwan made a good point in the novel that having power alone wasn't enough to be a master. One had to master themselves. This was something Anakin clearly couldn't do nor was able to do and I'm sure the Jedi Council knew this and his outbrust at them clearly showed that and even Obiwan understood that all to well since Anakin always disobey orders, etc. Anakin himself knew this as well. I did like it that he didn't want to be a master for the sake of being a master but because he wanted access to the restricted files but even then had he simply trusted Obiwan enough and talked to him I doubt he would have put himself through so much problems. He inability to talk and open up when it matter all the while being extremely emotional was interesting.

I wonder if he just assumed a lot of things though without actually trying them. It appeard that he assumed Obiwan wouldn't understand or that they would kick him out of the order. All of that was in his head but why? Was it all Palps talk or did he want to think that on his own?

Honestly the more I think about it and look at his character, I wonder if even without Palp talking into his ear all those years, would he have fallen anyway? I'm kinda of the opinion yeah he would have but it would have taken a lot longer before he finally went out of control.

Can't wait to see the film and see how that version is. I do recommend that people check out the novel version as well though.

Anakin was really not much different than Qui Gon, who also disobayed the council apparently on many occasions. Qui Gon saw the problems there. He also had an "outburst" with them that was no different than Anakins. I think Mace really laid the ground work for Anakins distaste for the Jedi/ council at least. From his very first meating with them...he's tested, passes with flying colors, they acknowlege it then say "Nah we'll pass." You can even see little Anakin look pretty pissed off at Mace who gives the news.

Fast forward to Ep III after all that Anakin has done not only for the Jedi but also the Republic, Obi Wan know's this as well, they give him the smack in the face, that Obi also acknowleges. Then After Anakin again does the right thing and reports Palps to the council, Mace still has the nerve to say "If what you say checks out, then I'll trust you." What a dick!!!! I think it was Maces influence/voice on the council that Anakin really hated!

Chris

Edited May 20, 2005 by Dobber

[Chowser]

* The last thing was part of the ending. In the book, I believe just before the twins are born, Yoda is meditating on his failure to save the Republic. The Force Spirit of Qui-Gon appears and tells him about how to be one with the Force but still have influence in the world. Yoda later acknowledges Qui-Gon as his master, and informs Obi-Wan on these teachings. The movie cut the Yoda / Qui-Gon scene completely away, I believe. A shame, I really would have loved to seen Qui-Gon again.

haven't read the book yet, but does it say why Yoda acknowledges Qui-Gon as Yoda's master?

I thought Yoda trained Dooku who trained Qui-Gon?

I think in Ep. 2, Dooku said Qui-Gon was his padawan....

ok, gotta go buy the book today now.

[Duke Togo]

* The last thing was part of the ending.  In the book, I believe just before the twins are born, Yoda is meditating on his failure to save the Republic.  The Force Spirit of Qui-Gon appears and tells him about how to be one with the Force but still have influence in the world.  Yoda later acknowledges Qui-Gon as his master, and informs Obi-Wan on these teachings.  The movie cut the Yoda / Qui-Gon scene completely away, I believe.  A shame, I really would have loved to seen Qui-Gon again.

haven't read the book yet, but does it say why Yoda acknowledges Qui-Gon as Yoda's master?

I thought Yoda trained Dooku who trained Qui-Gon?

I think in Ep. 2, Dooku said Qui-Gon was his padawan....

ok, gotta go buy the book today now.

He didn't explain it well. I haven't read th ebook, but what he means is that Qui Gon has evolved to this higher state, and now he is the Master, and Yoda the student.

[Warmaker]

* The last thing was part of the ending.  In the book, I believe just before the twins are born, Yoda is meditating on his failure to save the Republic.  The Force Spirit of Qui-Gon appears and tells him about how to be one with the Force but still have influence in the world.  Yoda later acknowledges Qui-Gon as his master, and informs Obi-Wan on these teachings.  The movie cut the Yoda / Qui-Gon scene completely away, I believe.  A shame, I really would have loved to seen Qui-Gon again.

haven't read the book yet, but does it say why Yoda acknowledges Qui-Gon as Yoda's master?

I thought Yoda trained Dooku who trained Qui-Gon?

I think in Ep. 2, Dooku said Qui-Gon was his padawan....

ok, gotta go buy the book today now.

Yoda acknowledges Qui-Gon as his Master in the end of Ep.III since Qui-Gon discovered the immense power of being one with the force but still having influence in the world, i.e. what Obi-Wan became... a Force Spirit to stay around for a while and help Luke Skywalker in critical moments (Obi-Wan saying "I will become more powerful than you can ever imagine" or something like that). Yoda also reflected with regret on how he and the rest of the Council in the past had often looked down on Qui-Gon due to his somewhat reckless, rebellious nature, while Qui-Gon had become closer to the Force than anyone of them.

As for who taught who:

Yoda taught Dooku (discussed greatly in the book "Yoda")

Dooku taught Qui-Gon

Qui-Gon taught Obi-Wan

and of course, Obi-Wan taught Anakin

[Duke Togo]

Hi, I saw it. I only had minor issues.

Not enough of the Wookie Battle

The Syfo Dyias explanation...where?

The birth of the Rebellion.

Major issue...

It's the last one.

I completely agree on the birth of the Rebellion. This will most likely be one of those DVD deleted scenes, as we know the parts were atleast cast for this, and I assumed filmed. I think we just have to assume that Count Dooku was posing as Syfo Dyias, if not Sidious himself (Syfo Dyias - SyDyias).

[Ghadrack]

I cought the movie last night, loved it. Anakin/Vader is such a great character

On the topic of the Padme loss of will to live. She was pregnant with twins which can be physically stressful anyway, combine that with the force choking from her true love, and I have to believe that sincee she was linked to Anakin, while she may not have been a force user, I felt like when he was suffering, post lava-burns and the medical droids were pulling the pieces of charred flesh and leather from his body he was broadcasting his suffering to Padme. I may be wrong and it may just have been coincidence the way they were filming it, but the way they seemed to bouce back and forth from her in the hospital to him screaming in pain and then back to Padme grimacing, I think at the very least she was feeling an extremely enhanced sense of loss and suffering. Anyhow, maybe they clarify that is not what is happening in the book or script, but that is what my brain did with what I was seeing.

My only gripe about the whole thing was finally answered by Yoda about one hour into the movie. When were those Jedi going to sit down and learn math, the prophecy said "he" will bring balance to the force, Guess what, the Jedi were in control they were vastly outnumbering the Sith, they had the ear of the government, how could they not understand that by bringing balance to the force they were going to take a beating...... But Yoda finally pulled out his mental calculator on the Clone Trooper transport.

Overall the series is awesome, it is a really neat story, extremely cool characters and just overall a fun ride. I think like a lot of people I have mixed feelings. I love knowig the whole story, I will look forward to being able to re-watch them, but it is a little bit of a bummer knowing that it is likely the end of the story as we have come to know it. (Potential TV series aside)

[Mechleader]

The medical driod said that Padme was medically fine.

That's the cue....she died of a broken heart.

I know how it sounds but that's what happened.

And the Yoda fight...I guess he knew he couldn't best him and took off.

[Blaine23]

Best part in the whole damn movie -

Anakin's agonizing over whether to be a Jedi or a Sith and Padme's somehow "feeling" it. It's a small scene... but it's some of the best filmmaking Lucas has done since the Maul/Qui Gon/Obi Wan battle. Tension, pacing, etc.

Worst part in the whole damn movie -

Tough to say. I felt Dooku's demise was rather rushed and almost anti-climactic as it was shot. It should have been a more tense moment.

Surprises -

The "romance" between Padme and Anakin didn't bother me nearly as much as it has previously. They did a really good job playing out the 3rd rate Romeo & Juliet angle and it worked much better than the "falling in love" of AotC.

Final thoughts -

Wookies are f-ing awesome.

[ComicKaze]

I think one thing that would have made this movie one of the best and redeemed it from even the small criticisms it is recieving was if Lucas actually used the potential of Vader, and I don't mean Anakin.

In all these films, we haven't REALLY seen how evil and feared the Dark Lord is. So he chokes guys every now and then, so what?

We haven't even seem him truely kick ass, he and Obi Wan had geriatric battle in ANH and he had small fights with Luke (mostly in dark and shadow) in ESB and RoTJ.

I've always maintained that Lucas should have begun EP1 with Anakin at an older age (thus, even less likely as a Jedi candidate but accepted because of his immense strength in the force but utlimately dooming him because of his troubled developmental years) and beginning the clone wars in EP1. EP2 would be a full-fledged war fleshed out in all it's glory and darkness (somewhat like the Clone Wars cartoon), then in EP3, Anakin would turn MUCH earlier and fight with Obi Wan much earlier, ultimately carrying out the merciless Jedi slaughter AS Vader and ultimately kicking serious ass and inspiring fear and terror in the Jedi ranks like they've never known from an enemy they don't know.

You could even have some throwback to the "I am your father line" but having some dying Jedi screams of "the chosen one will save us!!!" and then Vader saying "I AM the chosen one!" before really inflicting incredible amounts of pain and suffering.

[Effect]

Well Anakin was Vader in Episode 3. After Mace dies, Anakin is considered Darth Vader. Even in the novel he's refered to as Vader as in "Vader said or Vader moved or the Sith Lord did this or that". Even without the actual suit he was actually Darth Vader. So it was Vader that fought Obi-wan. It was Vader that lead the assult on the Jedi Temple and killing the Jedi (adult and children). Just minus the black suit. The whole Temple thing I think shows how far gone he was, how selfish he was and how evil he had become. For all the problems he had with the Jedi Council what did those kids ever do to him. More then likely a LOT of them if not all of them looked up to him and Obiwan and more so Obiwan since he was closer to them in age as they were two of the most powerful and famous.

Also I love how it had all those throw back lines to the OT. Either said by Obiwan or Anakin/Vader through out the story. The novel had quite a few and they didn't feel forced at all. Was this the same with the film? Finally getting to go see it Saturday(with parents, sister and my aunt and a few other family members).

Edited May 20, 2005 by Effect

[Jin_Kune_Do]

I donno, maybe its just me being to overly critical, since i train a martial arts system (Escrima/Arnis)

Hey, I also train in Arnis . I've also recently been studying the 15th century “Liechtenauer tradition” of German 2-handed longsword fighting.

I also didn't think the final fight was as good (or realistic) as I'd been led to believe from a swordsmanship standpoint. It's been billed for months as the longest sword fight in the history of cinema with the actors having to learn hundreds or thousands of moves, but in actuality I found it very repetative. I thought all the other fights in the movie were actually much better than the final fight.

Basically it seemed for most of the fight that both Anakin and Obi Wan were just doing diagonal strike, parry, diagonal strike, parry, reapeat ad nauseam, very little variety in attacks.

Graham

Hey, I also train in Arnis . I've also recently been studying the 15th century “Liechtenauer tradition” of German 2-handed longsword fighting.

I also didn't think the final fight was as good (or realistic) as I'd been led to believe from a swordsmanship standpoint. It's been billed for months as the longest sword fight in the history of cinema with the actors having to learn hundreds or thousands of moves, but in actuality I found it very repetative. I thought all the other fights in the movie were actually much better than the final fight.

Basically it seemed for most of the fight that both Anakin and Obi Wan were just doing diagonal strike, parry, diagonal strike, parry, reapeat ad nauseam, very little variety in attacks.

Graham

Nice to meet another Arnisador in here Graham. But yes, way too much flashy stuff. Most of the combinations they are pulling up has no tactical reason. Its just hitting the sword for the sake of hitting the sword, instead of actually trying to hit the oponent. In my opinion the fight with Darth Maul made more sense, thou what he did was flashy, the attacks he did was realistic.

I can even give and example, the part where they are standing toe-to-toe and swinging the light sabers around their waist, torso, head etc and then after (what seams) a long time they hit. They are not swinging the sabers in hopes of hitting each other but, they are not even evading the other strikes, no female triangle footwork or evasion of anykind. Oh well...atleast the swordfighting wasnt as bad as in the original trilogy.

- Jin

[Solscud007]

any one notice how much time passes from Episode 3 to ep. 4?

How does Obiwan age so much? haha

another issue. is how many clone troopers are there? hundreds of thousands?

So in a short time some one says " Alright everyone we are gonna change uniforms" everyone!!!!!! Oh and while we are at it, lets revamp our entire fleet while we are at it.

So 18 years passes by and they jsut finnally completed the Death star?

Edited May 20, 2005 by Solscud007

[JELEINEN]

My only gripe about the whole thing was finally answered by Yoda about one hour into the movie. When were those Jedi going to sit down and learn math, the prophecy said "he" will bring balance to the force, Guess what, the Jedi were in control they were vastly outnumbering the Sith, they had the ear of the government, how could they not understand that by bringing balance to the force they were going to take a beating...... But Yoda finally pulled out his mental calculator on the Clone Trooper transport.

As has been said, bringing balance to the force does not mean equaling out the Sith and the Jedi. It means eliminating the Sith altogether. The Dark Side is what makes the Force out of balance.

The problem is that the Jedi had become so dogmatic and hide bound, that they couldn't even see the Sith right in front of them. The dogma of eliminating emotion and attachment is what Qui Gon and later Luke reject, and what Anikan had such a hard time dealing with.

[Duke Togo]

As has been said, bringing balance to the force does not mean equaling out the Sith and the Jedi. It means eliminating the Sith altogether. The Dark Side is what makes the Force out of balance.

Actually, it means eliminating the old Jedi Order as well. The Jedi were also throwing the Force out of balance. Qui Gon's path and teachings about "the living Force" is what the true nature of the Force is. This gray area, neither good or evil, is where the true balance lies. Once the Emperor and Vader are dead, there are no Sith or Jedi left, leaving the Force in a state of balance. Luke is a disciple of Qui Gon's teachings, and thus brings about a new Order to the Force.

[Effect]

The Jedi weren't agaisnt emotion. It was control over that emotion that they really stressed. This is something that Anakin never learned no matter how muhc Obiwan or others tried to teach him. As for attachment, I think it made sense. Jedi are about selfless service. It's been shown they can be close to people, close as family even and they were able to have sex if they want. Nothing stopped them from that. It's that having extreme attachments were bad since upon losing those attachments would cause extreme emotional trouble, causing a perosn to lose control. Anakin's fear over losing Padme and how he responded to the death of his mother are clear examples of this I believe why the Jedi taught dettachment.

Jedi were going to die, in doing their job even before the war, one just needed to accept that as a fact of life and be able to move forward. I think that was the main thing they were trying to push. That while you would miss that person, you couldn't let that grief, etc pull you down cause that itself would lead to the dark side. The novel version of the film goes through a lot of that with Obiwan when he see friends die around him, comes across the bodies of the Jedi children, while fighting Anakin. It's that abiltity to let go and focus which allows him to fight Anakin the way he does. The novel makes a point to point this out several times. Does the film show any inner thought process of this? Or for any of the other characters? Like characters speaking in their mind?

People took that whole "there is no emotion" wording of the Jedi Code to seriously and to literal when it first came out in Episode 1 and ignored what they actually saw on screen. Clearly the Jedi do show emotion, it's just that they have to control it. Which makes sense, they aren't normal people and have great power that needs to be kept in check or we get people going to the dark side and the results from that.

Sith caused the unbalaned. Dark and light both need to exist, like up and down.

[Mr March]

Is it just me who thinks this way? Or am i being overly critical?

Anyways, besides these minor thingy...i do like it alot, i know its my favoring Episode of the whole bunch.

- Jin

I'd just like to address your concerns, since these criticisms often arise.

Please understand that film is first and foremost art and entertainment. As a visual medium, film is meant to be aesthetically pleasing to the viewing audience. Ultimately, filmmakers will always choose what is visually engaging as opposed to following strict reality. What you may find visually engaging is simply not as exciting to most everyone else.

Keep in mind, you are a specialist watching a film made for the general public; for the layman. A rocket scientist watching Ron Howard's Apollo 13, a lawyer watching Rob Reiner's A Few Good Men, or a soldier watching Micheal Mann's Heat will always find fault in the subject matter. As good as films get, they can never stand up to intense scrutiny by specialists who know what they are talking about.

I don't beleive you're being overly critical. However, I do believe you are forgetting what kind of person you are and you what you know. Star Wars isn't going to stand up to someone such as yourself watching the fight scenes with a critical eye.

Besides, filmmakers couldn’t do it right even if they tried. They are filmmakers, not rocket scientists, lawyers, and soldiers

[Anubis]

I agree totally that the first one should have started with teenage Anakin. I was talkign to my brother last night and somehow ended up descussing Qui-gon a little.

Looking back, there was ONE useful thing about having the first one set in the time Anakin was still a kid: It allowed for an easier focus on Master Qui-gon with Apprentice Obi-Wan. It was his show for a while. All the main characters looked up to Qui-gon.

Qui-gon was really more what the Jedi were supposed to be like. He actually was selfless, he didn't appear at all arrogant, and was probably more in-tune with the "living force" concept than anyone else. Even Yoda called Qui-gon "defiant" but Qui-gon was probably just outside of the mold the Jedi had become by that point, so they viewed that as troublemaking.

Having Qui-gon gives you something to compare the other Jedi against, and it's easily apparrent that much of the others didn't have quite the same traits as Qui-gon. Compare him next to Windu for example and you can see which one fits the "proper" mold the Jedi were actually supposed to be. The majority of the Jedi had become overconfident, and arrogant.

However, even starting with teenage Anakin they could have had Qui-gon alive and well and work with Obi-wan and Anakin as well, and still have the contrast between Qui-gon and the others apparrent.

I still think ep. 1 was pretty dumb, but Qui-gon was cool.

I would have liked to have seen the Qui-gon ghost in ep. 3, but at least Yoda explained enough I guess. "Teach you to commune with him I will." We then see the result of those communions in the OT.

[Duke Togo]

No one has mentioned this, so I will... the lightsaber Luke uses for Episodes IV and V was used to kill countless Jedi, including children.

[Sarensaas]

No one has mentioned this, so I will... the lightsaber Luke uses for Episodes IV and V was used to kill countless Jedi, including children.

Yeah, Luke didn't do to good with it either, rushing off emotionally instead of finishing his training, and dad made him pay. Cursed saber!

[wolfx]

Gosh...trudged through 5 pages of this thread...and finally I'm here. Just seen it an hour ago. Can't say I was too impressed with it, with all the "rave reviews" i'm getting from everywhere including here. I felt lots of things could be done better....but I think where it matters, it was done well...or at least done with good effect.

The fall of anakin was well done, but probably can be improved a little.You don't go choking the person you love and do evil for, even if you think she betrayed you.....wtf? But otherwise, you could feel anakin's confusion and distrust. Really kick ass! They emphasized on Anakin and Obiwan's close relationship (thank god) but didn't do it enough. I think this should've been done more in Episode 2 which IMHO had alot of wasted screentime on useless things. It would've made Obi-wan's disappointment with Anakin more tragic. Episode 2 should've dumped the love story and made it more a story between Anakin and Obi-wan.

The final fight between master and student was pretty good too. Very dramatic. Although I thought the scene where Obi-wan leaves anakin there to burn very tragic and effective, the "Jedi" in me felt that Obi-wan was such a bastard for letting his "brother" and the one he "loved" suffer there. Should've just killed the biatch and save him from his suffering. The least a "friend" could've done IMHO. But then again maybe Obi-wan couldn't bring himself to kill Anakin. Leave the force to handle him. Pffft.

Clone troopers....man they're so cool. Wished we could've seen more of them. It was pretty sad that all they needed was a single phrase and it turned them against their most trusted allies, the Jedis. Pretty sad too how they just died. I was so sure that Commander Cody would feel a tad remorseful or sad at receiving the order, but there was no emotion. The clones do not have free-thought do they? Don't know about this,and a question for the fans, what happens to the clones after the clone wars? Someone told me long ago that they became too unstable and were gotten rid off, and then replaced by galactic conscripts that become storm troopers? This true?

Main character take downs were pretty anti-climatic IMHO. Might be because I watched too much clone wars (Cartoon Network) but Dooku lost too easily for a Sith Lord, and Grievious (who stood up to a whole squad of Jedi in CW) got 2 limbs cut off by Obi-wan easily and died from a blaster shot to his heart....anti-climax as well. Windu death could've been cooler...like he should've expected Anakin's betrayal, force pushed him away or something....but got his hand cut off , looked surprised and screamed like a school girl.....oh well.

Droid humour was pretty unecessary but i guess it was cool that it made R2 look extra lovable. Gotta love that astromech.

And i'm surprised nobody mentioned this, but i found the sudden shift of technology at the ending extremely funny. For the whole episodes 1-3 we see very nice computer consoles, targeting computers , etc, then at the end we see your "classic" all white background with random red lights on the walls for Bale Organa's ship, and the classic grey for the star destroyer interior with random fluorescent lights all around. Wasn't very subtle with the technology "drop" were they?

Oh, and did anyone catch the Millenium Falcon cameo parking at the Senate building when Obiwan and Anakin returned with Palpatine rescued? Could been any Correlian Corvette I guess but it could've been the Falcon as well.

Edited May 20, 2005 by wolfx

[Duke Togo]

You don't go choking the person you love and do evil for, even if you think she betrayed you.....wtf?

Anakin wasn't in control of himself. Once the Dark Side takes over, it controls you. You do its will.

[Prime]

The Syfo Dyias explanation...where?

This is explained in its entirety in the Labyrinth of Evil novel...

IIRC, in short Syfo Dias was a read Jedi who was a friend of Dooku. He did in fact oder the creation of the clone army without the council's permission. When Dooku joined the Sith, Palpatine have him kill Syfo Dias as a test of loyalty. So how it is explained in Clones is essentailly correct.

[Jin_Kune_Do]

I'd just like to address your concerns, since these criticisms often arise.

Please understand that film is first and foremost art and entertainment. As a visual medium, film is meant to be aesthetically pleasing to the viewing audience. Ultimately, filmmakers will always choose what is visually engaging as opposed to following strict reality. What you may find visually engaging is simply not as exciting to most everyone else.

Keep in mind, you are a specialist watching a film made for the general public; for the layman. A rocket scientist watching Ron Howard's Apollo 13, a lawyer watching Rob Reiner's A Few Good Men, or a soldier watching Micheal Mann's Heat will always find fault in the subject matter. As good as films get, they can never stand up to intense scrutiny by specialists who know what they are talking about.

I don't beleive you're being overly critical. However, I do believe you are forgetting what kind of person you are and you what you know. Star Wars isn't going to stand up to someone such as yourself watching the fight scenes with a critical eye.

Besides, filmmakers couldn’t do it right even if they tried. They are filmmakers, not rocket scientists, lawyers, and soldiers

I totally agree with you on this, it is true it has to be aesthetically pleasing in order to make the movie "sell" or more impressing for the general public. I guess its just my background that kinda made me notice i few things that was kinda out or place somehow or in other words just felt odd.

But still Episode III is still a badass movie, i was merely pointing out that a few things which i wish was made abit better since it is the final starwars (for now). But as said earlier, you cant please everyone, so as long as George Lukas is happy with it, i guess its good enuff for me too.

- Jin

[uminoken]

I liked it, but as always bits bugged me. In Eps 1 & 2 I felt both could be shorter, but Sith should have been much longer. I was really looking forward to seeing the Rebellion, Qui-Gon's mentoring and many other great parts of the novel. Ah well, that's what dvd is for. The score fairly irked me though - (yeah, I'm a score geek, what can I say) I'd had it since it was leaked, listening about every other day and I do believe anyone who bought the soundtrack (like me) was scratching their heads. If it's not going to be in the film (the entire opening, Throne Room credits, I'm lookin at you) why put it on the cd? I thought for sure they would leave the Sith score alone, but I caught cues from Eps 1 and 2 in the Coruscant battle Still with all it's faults, it's definitely the best of the prequels.

[kalvasflam]

Just saw the movie... and the best I can say is oh well, at least it was just a matinee showing.

The good thing about the movie is the special effects, as if there is any surprise there. I could probably rewatch the movie a few times just to see the special effects. Not enough of the vehicles like Graham said. The opening sequence where the two fighters skimmed around the star destroyer was very nicely done. The level of details were great, and I wish they showed more of the battles. The fighting and the duels (since people didn't talk much during duels) was great.

Now, having praised the movie. They may as well have made it an animated feature. The acting was horrible. Ewan did a fair job as Obi Wan. But everyone else was horrid. I mean Jar Jar did a better acting job than the actors, and you guessed it, I liked him because he didn't talk. In all fairness, it wasn't their fault really, it was the poor dialogue all around.

Story wise, may be it was just me, but I almost cheered for Sidious when he was wiping the floor with the jedis, Mace was at best an arrogant bastard. At worst, he is the kind of good guy you secretly hope would just die. He flipped his mind really quick from you're going to be jailed to I have to kill you because there is no justice.

What else, the story just didn't feel like it had any emotional impact, I listened to the audio book, and the novelization was better done. But that's what I expected. When Anakin sliced up Mace, the emotional impact just didn't carry through in the acting at all, it was like oh, Anakin turned to the dark side... ok, that's nice.

It was the best of the three prequels, but doesn't hold much of a candle to the frst three episodes. Not even ROTJ which was horrid thanks to the Ewoks.

[Duke Togo]

Ok, lets just clear up this myth right now... the dialog in Star Wars has ALWAYS been questionable. During the making of the first film it was Harrison Ford who said, "You can right this shite, George, but you sure can't say it". If anyone wants to think otherwise, I urge them to please continue to make themselves look like they don't know what the hell they are talking about.

[Mr March]

I know I'm going to catch hell for this, but Duke Togo is absolutely right. Star Wars is a throwback to the melodramatic stories of film decades past in more ways than just the story. Star Wars has always had cheesy, contrived dialogue, Return of the Jedi being the worst offender of the original trilogy. I can honestly say that the prequels are no different.

Now, if you want to say the love story in the prequels was weak compared to the original trilogy, or that more jokes fell flat in the prequels than episodes IV to VI, or Jar Jar Binks was the biggest character failure among all the Star Wars films, then I'd say you're on the right track. But the prequel dialogue somehow being a marked divergence from that established in the original films? Sorry, but it just isn't so.

[Mr March]

I totally agree with you on this, it is true it has to be aesthetically pleasing in order to make the movie "sell" or more impressing for the general public. I guess its just my background that kinda made me notice i few things that was kinda out or place somehow or in other words just felt odd.

But still Episode III is still a badass movie, i was merely pointing out that a few things which i wish was made abit better since it is the final starwars (for now). But as said earlier, you cant please everyone, so as long as George Lukas is happy with it, i guess its good enuff for me too.

- Jin

As long as you can accept the differences between film and reality, I don't think your knowledge will ruin any film with sword fights. My own knowledge has highlighted weaknesses in many films I enjoy, but overall the themes worked and the film was a quality product. At the very least, your criticism means you're thinking when you watch film and that's actually better than the average audience

[EXO]

Just came back from seeing it and had an absolute good time. It was a lot more involvng than the last 2. I'd have to say that this movie improved at the same rate than AOTC, as much as AOTC improved over TPM... I wasn't aware that my favorite character in all of the series would be Obi Wan, his adventures were always the best. I think I have the same gripes about the movie as mostly everyone, but overall this has to stand to be one of the best SW id not sci fi films of all. Though I'd have preffered this one to be 2 films or 4 hours long.

[Radd]

Now, having praised the movie. They may as well have made it an animated feature. The acting was horrible. Ewan did a fair job as Obi Wan. But everyone else was horrid. I mean Jar Jar did a better acting job than the actors, and you guessed it, I liked him because he didn't talk. In all fairness, it wasn't their fault really, it was the poor dialogue all around.

Please, credit where credit is due. Ian McDiarmid once again did an excellent job.

[DARTHTODD]

Couple things: first of all keep in mind that some of the unanswered stuff MAY be answered in the TV series. I know the series won't have any main characters but there's a good chance that the rebellion, etc will be discussed.

Secondly, the clones age twice as fast as normal humans so these clones will be too old to fight by the time A New Hope comes around. Lucas has recently stated that stormtroopers are a mix of clones (created from other less expensive, less capable subjects) and conscripts.

Third, I personally feel that the acting in Sith was pretty damn good. As good as you'll get from a SW movie at least. There were only a couple times when I cringed a bit and even those scenes were meant to be over the top (IMO).

This is a great movie IMO. Sure, you can nitpick this or that like you can on any movie. I feel very good about how it all ended, Lucas nailed this one.

[Sundown]

Ok, lets just clear up this myth right now... the dialog in Star Wars has ALWAYS been questionable. During the making of the first film it was Harrison Ford who said, "You can right this shite, George, but you sure can't say it". If anyone wants to think otherwise, I urge them to please continue to make themselves look like they don't know what the hell they are talking about.

Very true. In fact, much of what made the OT as watchable as it was was all of the adlibbing Ford did. The corny wasn't so pronounced next to the banter Ford injected. And his delivery redeemed quite a few lines that would otherwise have fallen flat. We've no Ford this time around.

"There's nothing to see. I was born here you know." Meeeh.

"You're going to die here you know. Convenient." Teh Win.

Not sure if that one was adlibbed or not, though.

-Al

[Roy Focker]

Now my opinion a day later.

The characters were still idiots. They made the Palps so evil and Anakin such a self little bitch for the audience to see that it made every character for not seeing it out an idiot.

Palps becomes the Emperor by playing the victim. "Doku's dead but they tried to kidnap me. The war won't stop until we get that droid general."

"The Jedi made me fugly! Lets kill them and create an empire!"

Did the senate really love him that much? He could of created other victims and promise to avenge them.

Anakin motives to joining Palps is still weak. "I won't let Padme die!" The film even gives a better motive that never takes place. That the council and the senate finding out about their marriage and the possible results. Anakin could of just gotten pissed at the scandal it causes. The Jedi kicking him out of the order, etc.

[Warmaker]

*snip*

Worst part in the whole damn movie -

Tough to say. I felt Dooku's demise was rather rushed and almost anti-climactic as it was shot. It should have been a more tense moment.

*snip*

Final thoughts -

Wookies are f-ing awesome.

Dooku's time onscreen, fighting time, and demise ended much too quickly, I agree. For a character that had a critical role in AotC and the Clone Wars itself, it was disappointing a bit.

The book gave him "alot of time," even though I knew he would be replaced by Anakin. I won't say too much for those who will check the book, but trust me, he does have a better showing. His hope on a future with the impending Empire and all the way through his betrayal by his own master... the very nature of the Sith.

As for the Wookies & Kashyyyk, I liked how the movie showed some of the campaign since the book didn't even really discuss it too much. It was also nice to see camouflaged troopers instead of the traditional all white or white/colored Clone Trooper schemes.

[Sundown]

Loved:

1. The Vader/Obiwan immolation scene. Legless, sliding into the lava. Obiwan distraught. Awesome.

2. At least some comraderie between Anakin and Obiwan was shown. If it were up to me, I'd make this the entire second movie. The loss would be so much greater at the end of the third.

3. Anakin struggling a little with "good", although he seems largely confused and entirely erratic. But at least he's moved from purely whiney to somewhat naive, confused, and a little stupid. But Vader never struck me as the dense and bumbling sort, when it comes to understanding peoples and motives. If anything, I always saw him as extremely perceptive and intuitive.

4. No gumby Vader arms, bent and restrained all funny like they were in the Trailers. THANK YOU.

My personal problems with the movie:

1. Innappropriate use of slapstick humor in places that destroyed tension in key scenes. Ok, I got a chuckle out of the SBD kicking R2. But it killed the moment for me... our heros are captured and in jeopardy! Let us bask in the danger for a moment. A Roger Roger droid getting sarcastic with Grevious made him a lot less imposing than I thought he'd be. Overall the Roger Roger and Super Battle Droids were entirely annoying. The Rogers weren't nearly so bad in Ep. 1.

There were also a lot of other extraneous interjections of speech for no purpose other than to apparently amuse children and keep their attention. Like one droid saying "excuse me" in a chripy silly voice for bumping into another person, made very loud so you would be sure to catch it. Pretty distracting.

2. Dooku too easily bested, and killed without significant remorse. Anakin does struggle a moment... but then offs him like it's nothing. Feels... off. "Oh. I... shouldn't have." is not the appropriate response to hesitating a moment and then beheading a defenseless and (literally) unarmed man. "I'm a freaking psycho, because I thought about it, twitched, and then resolutely and coldly did it anyway knowing better" is.

Just didn't feel like his motivation to kill Dooku was strong enough or apparent enough-- hence Palpatine's exposition afterwards. It might have been more believable if they built up Anakin's anger during the fight. Moral decision scenes should make you struggle along with the hero... torn between how satisfying it would be for the villian to be killed, and what the right thing to do actually is. Instead our reaction is "Hey, don't do that. Whoa... why'd he? Oh, okay. Thanks for the clarification Palpy. Psycho."

3. Anakin's transformation just didn't feel altogether believable. Seemed too sudden at points... too abrupt. It was hard to empathize with Anakin's struggle the way we could empathize with Luke's. Luke was trying to do all the right things... all the normal humane things... and nearly turned to the dark side. I thought this powerful and easy to empathize with. Anakin is all degrees of creepy, vacillating between being reasonable one moment and strangely irrational the next. And him calling a Sith Lord master and embracing the Dark Side for the purpose of saving a life... all of a sudden making him a child murderer the next moment? It was hard to buy. It didn't resonate with my expectations emotionally.

4. Battles had no tactical flow. The old movies all presented battles with a tactical objective. Overarching orders were given, so you could follow who's supposed to do what... what multi-part and elaborate plan everyone had to follow in order to accomplish their goal. You could see formations, tactics, and the flow of battle unfold as one side gained ground or lost it. And you could see both sides make adjustments and maneuvers based on how the fight is going. They felt like real war flicks in some respects, except set in a galaxy far, far away. Hence the magic.

Not a whole lot of that in the Prequels. It seems every battle exists only to show CG troopers shoot at someone or be shot by someone, or for starfighters to blow another up or be blown up. There's no actual battle to follow. It's just a vehicle to display CG effects and for getting the characters where they need to be... at the next saber fight. I would have liked to have some "sense" to the battles. Rather than absolute chaos with everyone rushing headlong at everyone else. I keep forgetting why each battle scene is even significant.

Troopers also showed no use of formations, tactics or cover. Total departure from how they're portrayed in Clone Wars. Major departure from ground combat as portrayed or at least implied in the OT. Bummer.

5. Grevious not meeting expectations that the franchise itself set with Clone Wars. He's kind of gimpy. The cough was interesting... I understand wanting to add character by giving him a weakness. But it'd have been nice to see why he coughed. Perhaps have that play into his fight with Obiwan. Or else it's just extraneous and annoying. Plus the guy has no lungs.

His voice was also overly cliche, in a campy generic bad guy sort of way. Not as imposing as I'd have liked. Did kind of like Obiwan gunning him down though, as I was thinking that it was totally out of character... until he blurted, "So uncivilized." I was the only one in the theater that laughed. =P

6. Anytime Padme and Anakin are in the same scene... and their mouths are moving. Enough said.

7. NO USE OF SUBTITLED ALIEN SPEECH?! Fictional alien languages being heard is one of the things that makes the Star Wars universe feel vast and authentic. They could have used that device here and there for atmosphere, instead of having everyone speak in 20th century english, regardless of how odd and alien they looked. Maybe could even have used it for Grevious.

8. A pretty weak score for a Star Wars film. Some moments just felt off, or less dramatic than they could have been, because the music just wasn't there... or it was just generic ambience music.

9. Not enough attention spent on the new vehicles, allowing us to see any one of them at length, or apart from the clutter of the CG dazzle fest behind it.

10. Old people should not spin, flip, and leap about like tazmanian devils on crack. Not Palpy. Not Dooku. And to a lesser extent, not Yoda. It just looks wrong. I don't care how powerful they are in the force. Palpy in ROTJ didn't need to move very much. It in fact better showed how incredibly powerful he was. Also because it's unbecoming and makes him look absolutely stupid. And somehow, his makeup actually looks worse and cheaper than it did in ROTJ.

11. Hurried exposition on just about everything:

"Oh, by the way, Qui-Gon knows the way to blue gloweyhood."

"Oh, by the way, some Sith master can create life from midiwhachamacallits (explaining Anakin's Virgin Birth)."

"Oh, I'll name him Luke. Oh, I'll name her Leia. Oh, now I die."

I think it would have been better had they left the babies unnamed. Then someone watching the movies in order would wonder a little at who this dirt farmer boy is at least for a little while. Perhaps show only a brief shot of Bail Organa holding Padme's daughter, alone in thought. Then Leia's connection to Luke might still be a bit of a surprise to someone who watching the movies afresh.

I know there are a whole lot more complaints than praises. That's not to say the movie wasn't fun and enjoyable. It's just also flawed, partly due to inhereting some problems from the other films. And partly because Lucas doesn't have the same sense and style that drove the original movies, ones I personally much more prefer.

-Al

Edited May 21, 2005 by Sundown