Revenge of the Sith

[Stamen0083]

He just resented following the Jedi code and not being given personal power and glory.

Anakin was a war hero, the greatest of all of them. All the kids wanted to be like him.

He has glory.

He didn't want power for himself. Remember, he wanted to become a Jedi Master so he can access the restricted information held in the Archives about Darth Plagueis. After he cut off Windu's hand, though, all bets are off.

He resented the Jedi code because he was not allowed to publicly love Padme. I don't think he had a problem with anything else. He was stubborn and acted on impulse many times, but he was just passionate.

For a man to willingly and knowingly sacrifice his family, without doing anything about it, is completely unacceptable.

We're not talking about sacrificing his family willy nilly for no reason here. We're talking about sacrificing your family to save millions, billions of lives. Without putting anyone at risk, who would not want to save his family?

[Agent ONE]

You guys keep mentioning this "killing children" thing. I don't see anything wrong with killing children if their minds have been poisioned with propaganda to destroy what I stand for. Put me in a room with 100 kids who were raised by Militant Muslim Fundamentalists, and I would slit the throat of each one with absolutely NO hesitation. This kids are going to grow up to me my enemy, better kill em now than later after they have killed people I care about.

[JKeats]

You guys keep mentioning this "killing children" thing. I don't see anything wrong with killing children if their minds have been poisioned with propaganda to destroy what I stand for. Put me in a room with 100 kids who were raised by Militant Muslim Fundamentalists, and I would slit the throat of each one with absolutely NO hesitation. This kids are going to grow up to me my enemy, better kill em now than later after they have killed people I care about.

That's kind of chilling. Why can't you just re-educate them?

[Agent ONE]

You guys keep mentioning this "killing children" thing.  I don't see anything wrong with killing children if their minds have been poisioned with propaganda to destroy what I stand for.  Put me in a room with 100 kids who were raised by Militant Muslim Fundamentalists, and I would slit the throat of each one with absolutely NO hesitation.  This kids are going to grow up to me my enemy, better kill em now than later after they have killed people I care about.

That's kind of chilling. Why can't you just re-educate them?

You mean like how our prison system works? Heh... Waste of time and money. I would kill for free.

[Prime]

You guys keep mentioning this "killing children" thing. I don't see anything wrong with killing children if their minds have been poisioned with propaganda to destroy what I stand for. Put me in a room with 100 kids who were raised by Militant Muslim Fundamentalists, and I would slit the throat of each one with absolutely NO hesitation. This kids are going to grow up to me my enemy, better kill em now than later after they have killed people I care about.

What if they were holding puppies?

[Agent ONE]

You guys keep mentioning this "killing children" thing.  I don't see anything wrong with killing children if their minds have been poisioned with propaganda to destroy what I stand for.  Put me in a room with 100 kids who were raised by Militant Muslim Fundamentalists, and I would slit the throat of each one with absolutely NO hesitation.  This kids are going to grow up to me my enemy, better kill em now than later after they have killed people I care about.

What if they were holding puppies?

Then lunch is covered.

[Hurin]

Anakin was a war hero, the greatest of all of them. All the kids wanted to be like him.

He has glory.

Yet it still wasn't enough. He wanted to be a Jedi Master. He wanted to be the youngest one ever appointed to the council. And he wanted this even before the name of Darth Plagueis was even mentioned. And, indeed, the title of Master and a seat on the Council are all the motivation Lucas provides in the movie. The title of Master being a means to saving Padme isn't even mentioned in the film.

He resented the Jedi code because he was not allowed to publicly love Padme. I don't think he had a problem with anything else.

He had a problem with a lot more than that. . . things like obeying your Jedi Master's instructions. . . not murdering whole villages of Tusken Raiders. Not killing a defenseless prisoner. . . etc.

[Sumdumgai]

You guys keep mentioning this "killing children" thing.  I don't see anything wrong with killing children if their minds have been poisioned with propaganda to destroy what I stand for.  Put me in a room with 100 kids who were raised by Militant Muslim Fundamentalists, and I would slit the throat of each one with absolutely NO hesitation.  This kids are going to grow up to me my enemy, better kill em now than later after they have killed people I care about.

That's kind of chilling. Why can't you just re-educate them?

You mean like how our prison system works? Heh... Waste of time and money. I would kill for free.

Nice point. Re-education doesn't work unless it is IMMEDIATE. That's why the prison system doesn't work. The punishment comes months or years after the crime. Reinforcement arrives too late.

Re-education is difficult and time consuming.

That's why Anakin failed as a Jedi. He learned too much other crap without having learned self control and other essentials. They were never able to re-educate Anakin to be a Jedi. He was too old to begin the training.

Kill the enemy's young before they grow up and kill you or before they are used as suicide attackers. Cold, but highly effective and efficient.

Puppies don't do much for me anyways.

[Hurin]

You guys keep mentioning this "killing children" thing.  I don't see anything wrong with killing children if their minds have been poisioned with propaganda to destroy what I stand for.  Put me in a room with 100 kids who were raised by Militant Muslim Fundamentalists, and I would slit the throat of each one with absolutely NO hesitation.  This kids are going to grow up to me my enemy, better kill em now than later after they have killed people I care about.

And, those Jedi children stood for. . . what? What is it exactly about the Jedi Order that makes them so deserving of annihilation that you didn't hear directly from Darth Sidious's mouth? Why did they deserve to die? Because they were members of an Order that wouldn't sanction Anakin's desire for ultimate power?

Again, Anakin has a point of view. He might indeed have believed at some point that what he was doing was justified or even "right." But, as I said above, that's irrelevant. Not all points of view are equally right or good. Just because I can rationalize something doesn't make it the right thing to do.

Or, to put it in terms you'll understand: What if a gang of Muslim Extremists invade a pre-school in suburban Chicago? And they murder all the kids because otherwise they would surely grow up to be capitalist christians or atheists that would continue to defile Islamic lands.

That is a point of view. And it is widely held in certain parts of the world. Don't you need to give it equal credence to your own? You seem to place such high importance on the internal justifications that a perpatrator conjures. . . why isn't what they would do just as objectively right or good as what you say you would do in a room full of children raised by Islamic Fundamentalists (chilling and disturbing as that may be).

H

[EXO]

You guys keep mentioning this "killing children" thing.  I don't see anything wrong with killing children if their minds have been poisioned with propaganda to destroy what I stand for.  Put me in a room with 100 kids who were raised by Militant Muslim Fundamentalists, and I would slit the throat of each one with absolutely NO hesitation.  This kids are going to grow up to me my enemy, better kill em now than later after they have killed people I care about.

That's kind of chilling. Why can't you just re-educate them?

You mean like how our prison system works? Heh... Waste of time and money. I would kill for free.

Nice point. Re-education doesn't work unless it is IMMEDIATE. That's why the prison system doesn't work. The punishment comes months or years after the crime. Reinforcement arrives too late.

Re-education is difficult and time consuming.

That's why Anakin failed as a Jedi. He learned too much other crap without having learned self control and other essentials. They were never able to re-educate Anakin to be a Jedi. He was too old to begin the training.

Kill the enemy's young before they grow up and kill you or before they are used as suicide attackers. Cold, but highly effective and efficient.

Puppies don't do much for me anyways.

Meh, killing your enemy's young is pointless and only breeds more violence. It's the sort of thing that breeds gangs that uses any excuse to shoot a gun. Thinking like that is so below gradeschool mentality, Lord of the Flies bullsh!t.

It's more fun to turn their kids against them.

[Agent ONE]

...

Or, to put it in terms you'll understand: What if a gang of Muslim Extremists invade a pre-school in suburban Chicago? And they murder all the kids because otherwise they would surely grow up to be capitalist christians or atheists that would continue to defile Islamic lands.

...

Well they did that in Russia, so they would surely do it here.

[Hurin]

Well they did that in Russia, so they would surely do it here.

As I'm sure you're aware, that in no way answers the question.

[Agent ONE]

Well they did that in Russia, so they would surely do it here.

As I'm sure you're aware, that in no way answers the question.

Sure it does... What do you want?

[Sumdumgai]

Meh, killing your enemy's young is pointless and only breeds more violence. It's the sort of thing that breeds gangs that uses any excuse to shoot a gun. Thinking like that is so below gradeschool mentality, Lord of the Flies bullsh!t.

It's more fun to turn their kids against them.

Yeah, but then you get tossed down a shaft when you fail.

Killing younglings is more effective. Unless you're a reaaaaally crafty sith lord. But in the end you lose power and get screwed over, be it by the youngling that you turned, or by the offspring of said youngling.

[Stamen0083]

...

Or, to put it in terms you'll understand:  What if a gang of Muslim Extremists invade a pre-school in suburban Chicago?  And they murder all the kids because otherwise they would surely grow up to be capitalist christians or atheists that would continue to defile Islamic lands.

...

Well they did that in Russia, so they would surely do it here.

Do you believe that what they did is right?

[Hurin]

Well they did that in Russia, so they would surely do it here.

As I'm sure you're aware, that in no way answers the question.

Sure it does... What do you want?

Let me refresh your memory as to the actual question

You seem to place such high importance on the internal justifications that a perpatrator conjures. . . why isn't what they would do just as objectively right or good as what you say you would do in a room full of children raised by Islamic Fundamentalists (chilling and disturbing as that may be)?

[Agent ONE]

...

Or, to put it in terms you'll understand:  What if a gang of Muslim Extremists invade a pre-school in suburban Chicago?  And they murder all the kids because otherwise they would surely grow up to be capitalist christians or atheists that would continue to defile Islamic lands.

...

Well they did that in Russia, so they would surely do it here.

Do you believe that what they did is right?

Nope, but in war, the most committed wins. The only "win" they want is for everybody who isn't one of them, to die. There will be no stoping them other than killing them to the last man.

[Agent ONE]

Well they did that in Russia, so they would surely do it here.

As I'm sure you're aware, that in no way answers the question.

Sure it does... What do you want?

Let me refresh your memory as to the actual question

You seem to place such high importance on the internal justifications that a perpatrator conjures. . . why isn't what they would do just as objectively right or good as what you say you would do in a room full of children raised by Islamic Fundamentalists (chilling and disturbing as that may be)?

In their mind we are the evil ones. Their actions are justified to them.

[Sundown]

Put me in a room with 100 kids who were raised by Militant Muslim Fundamentalists, and I would slit the throat of each one with absolutely NO hesitation. This kids are going to grow up to me my enemy, better kill em now than later after they have killed people I care about.

And confirm their fears about us, and turn out to be the monsters that they only suspected us to be before. Neat.

Plus, I dunno man. If I ever did that sort of thing "for my loved ones", most of them would probably gape and call me a disgusting, twisted freak. And they'd be right.

-Al

[Hurin]

Well they did that in Russia, so they would surely do it here.

As I'm sure you're aware, that in no way answers the question.

Sure it does... What do you want?

Let me refresh your memory as to the actual question

You seem to place such high importance on the internal justifications that a perpatrator conjures. . . why isn't what they would do just as objectively right or good as what you say you would do in a room full of children raised by Islamic Fundamentalists (chilling and disturbing as that may be)?

In their mind we are the evil ones. Their actions are justified to them.

You're apparently missing the word "objectively" in that question. Do you think the terrorists who are murdering children are evil regardless of how they feel about what they do? If so, then are you evil in their eyes for what you would do to their children? And if so, is there really no such thing as evil? Is it all just a point of view? Is there no concrete, absolute standard for evil or good? In short, are you now admitting that you are a hippy?

[Agent ONE]

Well they did that in Russia, so they would surely do it here.

As I'm sure you're aware, that in no way answers the question.

Sure it does... What do you want?

Let me refresh your memory as to the actual question

You seem to place such high importance on the internal justifications that a perpatrator conjures. . . why isn't what they would do just as objectively right or good as what you say you would do in a room full of children raised by Islamic Fundamentalists (chilling and disturbing as that may be)?

In their mind we are the evil ones. Their actions are justified to them.

You're apparently missing the word "objectively" in that question. Do you think the terrorists who are murdering children are evil regardless of how they feel about what they do? If so, then are you evil in their eyes for what you would do to their children? And if so, is there really no such thing as evil? Is it all just a point of view? Is there no concrete, absolute standard for evil or good? In short, are you now admitting that you are a hippy?

Ok... I would be evil for killing kids... You win..

I think at times it is necessary to commit acts of evil in order to do good.

[JsARCLIGHT]

This thead should most likely get back to Vader and his emotional baggage. This is a great debate, I'd hate to see it end mired in geopolitical hot topics.

[Sumdumgai]

This thead should most likely get back to Vader and his emotional baggage. This is a great debate, I'd hate to see it end mired in geopolitical hot topics.

Okay.

What do you all think of Vader's non-existant on screen lightsaber?

I mean the one that we see in all the promo shots and ads, but never see onscreen. The one that Master Replicas made a replica out of.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Do you mean the saber he used in ANH/ESB/ROTJ? Is there another saber?

[Hurin]

Ok... I would be evil for killing kids... You win..

I think at times it is necessary to commit acts of evil in order to do good.

Well, this sorta gets down to the way I look at things. . . you might indeed be evil for killing those kids. In other words, you would be so ruthless in attaining your goals or the goals of your "side" that you might cross the line into being evil yourself. The real question is how your "side" or "faction" views your actions. Does your side encourage and celebrate your ruthless acts or are they condemned? Are you celebrated as a freedom fighter or brought up on war crimes charges and executed?

Really, you don't need to look at the individuals so much as the "side" they're on. Let's leave our current Geo-Political situation behind again and get back to Star Wars.

In SW, one side murders entire planetary populations and revels in it. Its agents seem to feel no remorse and are rewarded for their evil behavior. Ruthlessness is embraced and the outright slaughter of innocents who "get in the way" isn't a problem at all. Think about what the Death Star is for. . . it's to eradicate entire planets. . . as though everyone on a planet can be considered anti-Empire. Whether you're pro-Empire or anti-Empire, if your planet has a Rebel base on it or its leader is a Rebel sympathizer, you whole planet and its billions or trillions of people go out just like Alderran. It's just the most ruthless way of "solving a problem" imaginable. All in an attempt to rule the galaxy by fear. I'm sorry, but that's the evil side in this equation. And Vader is an enthusiastic and powerful agent of it.

The other side has a collective conscience that doesn't allow them to be nearly as ruthless. The Rebels might have the occasional war criminals on their side, but they aren't encouraged or directed by the Rebel leadership. The Rebels aren't poisoning water supplies or murdering children. They are merely doing what they can to win militarily against the "Evil Galactic Empire." Their entire reason for existing as a cohesive force is to do away with the tyrannical, brutal, and ruthless authority of the Empire. They want to return Democracy and the rule of law to the Galaxy.

So, again, Vader might have fooled himself into thinking he has noble goals. But it's really about the side he has taken in the conflict, and less about how he feels about it. But I'd even argue that Vader knows he's on the bad side, and doesn't care. He just wants power and lies to himself from time to time to take the sting out of knowing that he's on the wrong side.

I'm someone who does believe that you can make value judgements about "sides". . . I think you can look at two proposed models for society and, on the whole, say: "I think this one is better, and that other one is downright evil in comparison. And I'm willing to destroy the latter one if it infringes upon the right of the former to exist."

H

Edit: Late edits that do not appear in A1's quote below

Edited June 9, 2005 by Hurin

[Agent ONE]

Ok... I would be evil for killing kids... You win..

I think at times it is necessary to commit acts of evil in order to do good.

Well, this sorta gets down to the way I look at things. . . you might indeed be evil for killing those kids. In other words, you would be so ruthless in attaining your goals or the goals of your "side" that you might cross the line into being evil yourself. The real question is how your "side" or "faction" views your actions. Does your side encourage and celebrate your ruthless acts or are they condemned? Are you celebrated as a freedom fighter or brought up on war crimes charges and executed?

Really, you don't need to look at the individuals so much as the "side" they're on. Let's leave our current Geo-Political situation behind again and get back to Star Wars.

In SW, one side murders entire planetary populations and revels in it. Its agents seem to feel no remorse and are rewarded for their evil behavior. Ruthlessness is embraced and the outright slaughter of innocents who "get in the way" isn't a problem at all.

The other side has a collective conscience that doesn't allow them to be nearly as ruthless. The Rebels might have the occasional war criminals on their side, but they aren't encouraged or directed by the Rebel leadership. The Rebels aren't poisoning water supplies or murdering children. They are merely doing what they can to win militarily against the "Evil Galactic Empire."

So, again, Vader might have fooled himself into thinking he has noble goals. But it's really about the side he has taken in the conflict, and less about how he feels about it. But I'd even argue that Vader knows he's on the bad side, and doesn't care. He just wants power and lies to himself from time to time to take the sting out of knowing that he's on the wrong side.

I'm someone who does believe that you can make value judgements about "sides". . . I think you can look at two proposed models for society and, on the whole, say: "I think this one is better, and that other one is downright evil in comparison. And I'm willing to destroy the latter one if it infringes upon the right of the former to exist."

H

Dude, if I ever went to war, I would be Col. Kurtz. So no, my side would NOT agree with my actions, but I would get the job done.

[do not disturb]

Do you mean the saber he used in ANH/ESB/ROTJ? Is there another saber?

i think hes talking about the saber they showed him rocking promoting ROTS.

also, vader had 4 LS's in all.

AOTC, ROTS/ANH(since its is actually the same saber) ESB and ROTJ(though i couldn't tell the diffference in entire film, MR did produce 2 of them).

either way, what differnce does it really make other than from a collectors POV? a light saber is a light saber IMO. the only ones that are truly different is dooku's and maul's.

[do not disturb]

Dude, if I ever went to war, I would be Col. Kurtz. So no, my side would NOT agree with my actions, but I would get the job done.

as they say in the military, "you can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs".

back on topic people, or atleast have the courtesy to take you're numbnut flirtatious arguements to PM.

[Hurin]

Dude, if I ever went to war, I would be Col. Kurtz. So no, my side would NOT agree with my actions, but I would get the job done.

Or, you might just lose the war for your side by giving the enemy terrible propoganda tools with which it rallies millions of people to its cause. . . thus spreading the war to a wider area which stretches our capabilities. . . thereby necessitating a draft here. . . thus undermining our political resolve at home to continue the war. . . thus causing us to back out of the war prematurely. . . thus causing us to lose the war.

One could argue that Vader and the Emperor did this for the Empire with their ruthless behavior. By the end of EpIII, it seems that the people still love Palpatine and that the Republic openly embraces their "new order". . . but by the end of the whole series, word has gotten around about the true nature of this "new order" and its tyrannical, ruthless behavior.

"It's not that I like the Empire, I hate it! But there's nothing I can do about it right now."

[EXO]

Meh, killing your enemy's young is pointless and only breeds more violence.  It's the sort of thing that breeds gangs that uses any excuse to shoot a gun.  Thinking like that is so below gradeschool mentality, Lord of the Flies bullsh!t.

It's more fun to turn their kids against them.

Yeah, but then you get tossed down a shaft when you fail.

Killing younglings is more effective. Unless you're a reaaaaally crafty sith lord. But in the end you lose power and get screwed over, be it by the youngling that you turned, or by the offspring of said youngling.

You let them kill your enemies... you don't give them power afterwards... they're traitors!

[Hurin]

Hey topic-Nazis,

The swerves into real-world situations have been used to illustrate and explore our points about Vader and the nature of the Empire. Indeed, some of those now asking for the topic to get back on track were the first ones to do so.

For my own part, I've gone to some pains to alway tie things back into Vader's nature.

So everyone can just calm down.

[Stamen0083]

i think hes talking about the saber they showed him rocking promoting ROTS.

also, vader had 4 LS's in all.

AOTC, ROTS/ANH(since its is actually the same saber) ESB and ROTJ(though i couldn't tell the diffference in entire film, MR did produce 2 of them).

Anakin has several sabers.

There was the one he used as a youngling Jedi padawan in Phantom Menace. I'm not sure what it looks like, but I'm sure it's just a standard saber issued to young padawan. It's low powered and is not lethal, but still hurts when you touch the blade.

There was the one he used in Attack of the Clones. It was destroyed in the Geonosis factory. It had the emitter shroud from an MPP flashgun, only chromed.

There was the one he was given at the end of Attack of the Clones by the Jedi who came to assist them. I don't remember what happened to it. I think it was Obi-Wan's that was destroyed when he battled Dooku.

The one Anakin used in Revenge of the Sith is based on a Graflex flash gun. Whether it came from an authentic one is not relevant. The activation box and grips are a little different, but it's essentially the same saber as Luke's in A New Hope, since Anakin's saber was taken by Obi-Wan after the battle on Mustafar.

Darth Vader's saber at the end of Revenge of the Sith is different from the ones in the original trilogy. It resembles them, but it's still very different.

Vader's saber in A New Hope was an MPP flash gun with grips. For Empire Strikes Back, the grips were replaced and some wires added to the holes on the outside.

Vader's saber in Return of the Jedi used to be one of Luke's Graflex based saber. A shroud was built from the shop and attached to the tip to resemble the MPP shroud, and the chrome tip was painted black, but it's not an MPP.

So actually, Anakin had quite a few sabers. Personally, I like the A New Hope MPP best, and my custom saber resembled it loosely.

[do not disturb]

There was the one he used as a youngling Jedi padawan in Phantom Menace. I'm not sure what it looks like, but I'm sure it's just a standard saber issued to young padawan. It's low powered and is not lethal, but still hurts when you touch the blade.

i don't remember young anakin having a LS at all in TPM? am i crazy?

[Opus]

There was the one he used as a youngling Jedi padawan in Phantom Menace. I'm not sure what it looks like, but I'm sure it's just a standard saber issued to young padawan. It's low powered and is not lethal, but still hurts when you touch the blade.

i don't remember young anakin having a LS at all in TPM? am i crazy?

I don't remember him having one either, but I am crazy.

[Agent ONE]

Hey topic-Nazis,

The swerves into real-world situations have been used to illustrate and explore our points about Vader and the nature of the Empire. ...

Great post my Son.