Revenge of the Sith

[Duke Togo]

Had Vader not intervened, it looked like Luke would have been easily killed by the Emporer...

Maybe you missed the part were Luke was beating the snot out of Vader, and the Emperor was looking for Luke to finish him and join as his new apprentice. if you missed the manipulation of Vader in the OT, I can't help you, but its fairly obvious to most.

Edited June 3, 2005 by Duke Togo

[Hurin]

Emperor

It seems that in your anger...YOU killed her.

Vader

I...I couldn't have. She was alive! Noooooooo!

Emperor

But on the plus side, I had them build you this

nifty mechanical body.

Vader

(flexes arm)

Impressive.

Emperor (ctd)

And they whipped up this nifty looking suit

that I'm afraid you'll have to remain in.

Vader inspects his image in a mirror.

Vader

Padme who?

They laugh maniacaly.

Dude. . . nobody is saying that Vader considers his armor and cybernetic limbs a reward. Nobody is saying that he wouldn't rather be his formerly whole self.

The armor makes him stronger, and (I believe) just as agile as he ever was. But he's still horribly scarred, in constant pain, and unable to survive outside of the suit, much less ever feel the true touch of another human hand. . . or the feeling of sunshin on his face. Nobody is claiming that he wanted or liked what happened to him! Talk about setting up a straw-man!

Nobody said that he is better because of his suit. We're merely saying that to say he was crippled is largely revisionist. And to believe that Lucas made those duels so slow in the OT on purpose because he always envisioned Vader as being crippled and slow is just well. . . guillable.

H

[JKeats]

Had Vader not intervened, it looked like Luke would have been easily killed by the Emporer...

Maybe you missed the part were Luke was beating the snot out of Vader, and the Emperor was looking for Luke to finish him and join as his new apprentice. if you missed the manipulation of Vader in the OT, I can't help you, but its fairly obvious to most.

Are you saying the Emperor intentionally pitted Luke against Vader knowing Luke would win? I always thought the Emperor wanted them to fight so that he could see if Luke would win. If he did, and Vader died, then he gets a new apprentice. If he didn't, and Vader won, oh well, another threat to his power gone.

I guess what I am saying is that both Luke and Vader were being manipulated, not just Vader.

And I still don't see how this proves that Vader was originally meant to be portrayed as, um, not powerful.

Edited June 3, 2005 by JKeats

[Druna Skass]

Gimp or not, Vader is still someone I wouldn't want to run into in a dark ally.

Who are those ashen skinned lackies we see following Palpatine around once in a while?

Edited June 3, 2005 by Druna Skass

[Hurin]

Had Vader not intervened, it looked like Luke would have been easily killed by the Emporer...

Maybe you missed the part were Luke was beating the snot out of Vader, and the Emperor was looking for Luke to finish him and join as his new apprentice. if you missed the manipulation of Vader in the OT, I can't help you, but its fairly obvious to most.

God, I love it when you pick some tiny part of someone's argument and then make a totally irrelevant point in a triumphant tone.

How does this demonstrate that Palpatine wanted Luke more than Vader because Luke could shoot blue lightning out of his hands and was more physically agile?

One more time. Say it with me: The Emperor thought that the Force might have been stronger in Luke than in Vader. It wasn't a question of who could jump further or run faster.

As for Vader being manipulated by Palpatine in the "OT". . . I didn't know the Emperor appeared in ANH. And, if anything, Vader is attempting to manipulate Palpatine during the whole 90 seconds in which the Emperor appears in ESB.

Edited June 3, 2005 by Hurin

[do not disturb]

vader a cripple? you're all nuts!

vaders as bad as they come, plain and simple!

sure homeboy got the shaft and had to get some body parts(a great movie) replaced with cyborg-esque technology. if anything, it made him even more of a badass since his droid like hands and legs were a lot stronger than flesh and bone. in ESB they show him jumping around a bit but i don't think GL had it in his mind that jedi were that quick until after the EU and video games started to protray the jedi in that manner.

look at yoda when they 1st showed him in ESB, did anyone actually think yoda was going to be the man like in AOTC? did anyone think yoda is going to be bouncing around like a maniac, kicking ass and taking names? no one did, thats why in the LS duel scene in AOTC, everyone in the whole friggin theatre was like WHHHHATTTTTT!!!!!!

as far as the emperor trying to replace vader with luke....

of course he was, just like he replaced darth maul with dooku(though DM died and wasn't replaced) and dooku for anakin, and vader for luke. thats what the emperor does, he lies and manipulates so he can have the most powerful of jedis by his side and keep the sith strong and in control.

for those who haven't figured it out,

GL likes to make up shiet as he goes along. once you accept this fact, and the fact that its a 100% fictional make believe story, all the SW BS will be easier to swallow.

[Hurin]

Are you saying the Emperor intentionally pitted Luke against Vader knowing Luke would win? I always thought the Emperor wanted them to fight so that he could see if Luke would win. If he did, and Vader died, then he gets a new apprentice. If he didn't, and Vader won, oh well, another threat to his power gone.

I guess what I am saying is that both Luke and Vader were being manipulated, not just Vader.

Yes, he is manipulating both of them.

I think the idea was that Luke had to kill Vader in anger to fully embrace the Dark Side. Palpatine envisioned Luke embracing the power of the Dark Side and using it to kill Vader. I think Vader was hoping that Luke would embrace the power of the Dark Side and turn on Palpatine in anger, and the two of them (Vader and Luke) could then kill the Emperor.

Palpatine was expecting that day to end with only Luke or Vader at his side. I think he probably preferred Luke. But this new idea that he preferred Luke because Vader was so darn crippled in that suit is just plain revionist in my view.

[do not disturb]

Are you saying the Emperor intentionally pitted Luke against Vader knowing Luke would win?  I always thought the Emperor wanted them to fight so that he could see if Luke would win.  If he did, and Vader died, then he gets a new apprentice.  If he didn't, and Vader won, oh well, another threat to his power gone.

I guess what I am saying is that both Luke and Vader were being manipulated, not just Vader.

Yes, he is manipulating both of them.

I think the idea was that Luke had to kill Vader in anger to fully embrace the Dark Side. Palpatine envisioned Luke embracing the power of the Dark Side and using it to kill Vader. I think Vader was hoping that Luke would embrace the power of the Dark Side and turn on Palpatine in anger, and the two of them (Vader and Luke) could then kill the Emperor.

Palpatine was expecting that day to end with only Luke or Vader at his side. I think he probably preferred Luke. But this new idea that he preferred Luke because Vader was so darn crippled in that suit is just plain revionist in my view.

exactly!

i just watched ESB last night, vader says something along the lines of, "you can defeat the emperor, he has forseen it, then you and i can rule the galaxy as father and son". if aything vader wanted to rule the galaxy with luke more so than with palps.

the emperor was working all the angles as usual. for him, everything he does has to be a win win situation....thats how the man operates.

vader beats luke, he doesn't have to worry about luke destroying him....

luke beats vader and the only way of doing so is by using the darkside hence luke would've been the emperors right hand man by turning to the darkside.

i don't think he favored either but sith lords tend to like'em young just like michael jackson.

Edited June 3, 2005 by haterist

[bsu legato]

buncha argumentative stuff.

<------ Point

Hurin ------->

I'm not saying that VADER would feel rewarded by his shiny new suit. I'm talking about the "Vader forever as a badass" crowd who see it that way. And you conveniently ignored the part where I mentioned how this Vader-as-cripple thing is hardly new. I'd find the quote myself, but let's be honest; no matter where it came from you'd twist it around so that it suited your argument.

If it was from anywhere in the mid 90's thru today, you'd say that it's just the "out of touch childhood rapist" Vader, and he should be disregarded as such.

If it was from somewhere in the 80's you'd say that it was the same Lucas who fed Boba Fett to the Sarlacc, causing you to spit up your pepsi.

If it was in the period from 78-80, youd say that either Gary Kurtz, Lawrence Kasdan, Irvin Kershener (or all three of them) overrode him and made the move better for it.

If it was in 77...well, I doubt thats where it was from, but it'd be interesting to see you squirm out of that if it were the case.

[Hurin]

I'm not saying that VADER would feel rewarded by his shiny new suit.

That's odd. Then why say this?

Mechanical Vader cannot be seen as any sort of reward.

It seems to me that you would only bring this up if you thought some of us were indeed trying to paint the suit as a net gain (thus a reward) for Anakin. Indeed, that seems to be the entire point of the imaginary script that I quoted back.

And you conveniently ignored the part where I mentioned how this Vader-as-cripple thing is hardly new. I'd find the quote myself, but let's be honest; no matter where it came from you'd twist it around so that it suited your argument.

I didn't feel like addressing a quote that you didn't provide. But if I must. . . I think I remember something similar as well from the Ep1 era (as you allege). . . and it sounds to me more like a rationalization of why the OT duels are so much slower in retrospect. It's retroactive justification and revision in light of what we now see in the prequels. . . not the real reason the OT was filmed that way originally. As for him (possibly) calling Vader "crippled" in the mid-nineties as you allege, he already had a vision of what the duels would like like in the Prequels and might already be uncomfortable with the contrast.

Guys, seriously. . . just answer this question to yourself: Do you really think that George Lucas slowed down the action on the set of ANH because he considered Vader to be slow and crippled. That's really the only question here. Do you think he ever turned to David Prowse and said: "Whoa there champ! You're supposed to have two cybernetic legs. . . you can't move that fast!" Do you think he ever turned to Mark Hammil and said: "You're only partially trained as a Jedi at this point. I don't want you to do anything too fancy or exciting. And Vader is crippled, so I'm going to have him move very slowly around you." That's the crux of this. . . and if you answer that question "yes". . . then we're done here. Because I just don't think you're being realistic or taking into account all the factors.

H

[bsu legato]

I'm not saying that VADER would feel rewarded by his shiny new suit.

That's odd. Then why say this?

Mechanical Vader cannot be seen as any sort of reward.

It seems to me that you would only bring this up if you thought some of us were indeed trying to paint the suit as a net gain (thus a reward) for Anakin. Indeed, that seems to be the entire point of the imaginary script that I quoted back.

Again, I mention it for the benefit fo those who only see Vaders final incarnation as a suit of cool looking leather & armor with no loss of his former abilites.

I didn't feel like addressing a quote that you didn't provide.  But if I must. . . I think I remember something similar as well from the Ep1 era (as you allege). . . and it sounds to me more like a rationalization of why the OT duels are so much slower in retrospect.  It's retroactive justification and revision in light of what we now see in the prequels. . . not the real reason the OT was filmed that way originally.  As for him (possibly) calling Vader "crippled" in the mid-nineties as you allege, he already had a vision of what the duels would like like in the Prequels and might already be uncomfortable with the contrast.

Allege? Allege? What, are we in court now? I realize that you really, really enjoy arguing, but if you're going to attempt to paint every comment I make as some sort of allegation, insinuation, or possibly a fabrication (all words with less-than-nice connotations, for the thesaurus impared), then there's even less point in discussing this with than I originally thought. But back to your point, you do somewhat seem to sense that there's more to this than some hasty, last minute retcon.

Guys, seriously. . . just answer this question to yourself:  Do you really think that George Lucas slowed down the action on the set of ANH because he considered Vader to be slow and crippled.  That's really the only question here.  Do you think he ever turned to David Prowse and said:  "Whoa there champ!  You're supposed to have two cybernetic legs. . . you can't move that fast!"  Do you think he ever turned to Mark Hammil and said:  "You're only partially trained as a Jedi at this point.  I don't want you to do anything too fancy or exciting.  And Vader is crippled, so I'm going to have him move very slowly around you."  That's the crux of this. . . and if you answer that question "yes". . . then we're done here.  Because I just don't think you're being realistic or taking into account all the factors.

Now who's making with the straw man there, Hurin? Nobody has alleged that any of what you just posted was a factor in the OT duel choreography. The reality of the matter is that western fight choreography wasn't anything like we have today in films. However, is it so wrong for Lucas to take the slower pace of the OT duels into consideration when making the PT, and allow that perhaps they weren't as fast as they could have been had the participants been in their primes? Or I suppose you'll tell me how much more thrilling that the Qui Gon/Obi Wan/Maul duel would have been, had it been fought at the same pace as the ANH duel.

And back to the original comment that started this whole tangent off, the novel does indeed omit any mention of Palpatine being displeased with Vader. However, it does state that he was "far less than he had been" and that his power was a fraction of what it had been.

[Agent ONE]

You guys are making WAY too much of 'what the Emperor was thinking.' One thing that was clarified in ep3 was that with the sith, everybody fuks everybody over. You totally screw your master over, or your aprentice, or just about anyone else. We also saw this in the OT where both Vader and the Emperor Luke a job at the expense of the other. I don't think we need to look deeper into the mind of Palpatine... He is a bastard period. He wanted Luke dead or at his side with Vader dead... Made no difference to him.

[Hurin]

Again, I mention it for the benefit fo those who only see Vaders final incarnation as a suit of cool looking leather & armor with no loss of his former abilites.

And, again, one can feel that the suit is a terrible curse and that Anakin would hate it even if did not impinge on his former abilities. You allege state that the armor must make him a "lesser man" or its effect as an "eternal prison" would be "ruined." But, there are other ways of making him a lesser man than simply robbing him of mobility and strength. His inablity to breathe on his own, his inability to see as he once did, or touch. . . these all render him a lesser man than he once was. But that doesn't necessarily preclude his being even more powerful as this new, "lesser man."

I didn't feel like addressing a quote that you didn't provide.  But if I must. . . I think I remember something similar as well from the Ep1 era (as you allege). . . and it sounds to me more like a rationalization of why the OT duels are so much slower in retrospect.  It's retroactive justification and revision in light of what we now see in the prequels. . . not the real reason the OT was filmed that way originally.  As for him (possibly) calling Vader "crippled" in the mid-nineties as you allege, he already had a vision of what the duels would like like in the Prequels and might already be uncomfortable with the contrast.

Allege? Allege? What, are we in court now? I realize that you really, really enjoy arguing, but if you're going to attempt to paint every comment I make as some sort of allegation, insinuation, or possibly a fabrication (all words with less-than-nice connotations, for the thesaurus impared), then there's even less point in discussing this with than I originally thought. But back to your point, you do somewhat seem to sense that there's more to this than some hasty, last minute retcon.

Sweet merciful crap! WTF!?! You have a twisted view of the word "allege" if it gets you all riled up like that! I'm not even going to address this odd outburst any further than to post the definition of allege:

1. To assert to be true; affirm: alleging his innocence of the charge.
   
2. To assert without or before proof: The indictment alleges that the commissioner took bribes.
   
3. To state (a plea or excuse, for example) in support or denial of a claim or accusation: The defendant alleges temporary insanity.
   
4. Archaic. To bring forward as an authority.
   

Nobody has alleged that any of what you just posted was a factor in the OT duel choreography.

Well, I admit some extrapolation in that both you and Togo state that it is blindingly obvious that Vader is crippled and obviously much less agile than he was as Anakin.

Vader is practically a cripple in the OT. The Emperor clearly wants Luke to take Vader's place. How can you watch the OT and not see this?

Yeah, why else would the Emperor have wanted to replace Vader with Luke? This is nothing new, believe me. Even in the SW universe, being a quadruple amputee and third degree burn victim hooked up to an iron lung will take its toll on your agility.

So, I'm sorry, but what else could you two be addressing other than Vader's agility during the lightsaber duels? Did I miss a scene where Vader makes a laughably inept attempt at a pommel-horse routine?

The reality of the matter is that western fight choreography wasn't anything like we have today in films. However, is it so wrong for Lucas to take the slower pace of the OT duels into consideration when making the PT, and allow that perhaps they weren't as fast as they could have been had the participants been in their primes?

Okay, so now we essentially agree that the confining factors on the OT duels wasn't that Lucas envisioned Vader as crippled, but rather the standards of the time and/or the limitations of the costume.

Or I suppose you'll tell me how much more thrilling that the Qui Gon/Obi Wan/Maul duel would have been, had it been fought at the same pace as the ANH duel.

Try as I might, I can't make heads or tails of your point here. My point has always been that Vader was originally envisioned as poweful, agile, and strong throughout the OT. And I think that Lucas had to come up with some BS to explain away the differences in fighting style between the OT and the Prequels (Vader suddnely becoming physically disabled). When I pointed out the BS, some of you came to its defense saying that it was obvious that what Lucas now alleges states was always obviously the case. Now, however, given what you're writing, I'm not sure what you believe. But I can say, unequivocally, that I don't think he should have forced slower, OT-style lightsaber duels on the prequels for the sake of consistency. I just don't think he needs to make Vader a less powerful villain in order to restore consistency. And I think it is a poor choice to do so. Sue me.

And back to the original comment that started this whole tangent off, the novel does indeed omit any mention of Palpatine being displeased with Vader. However, it does state that he was "far less than he had been" and that his power was a fraction of what it had been.

Hmm, I'll have to check that out. I vaguely remember something like that too.

H

[the white drew carey]

My 2 cents.

It's true that Lucas had a lot to justify by making the prequel Jedi battles much more intense than what is found in the OT, especially ANH.

I think he did a good job connecting them in the sense that when Obi-wan and Vader meet in ANH, the duel is not a battle of lightsaber prowess, it's more of a sideshow to their mental/personal confrontation. They weren't trying to win by lightsaber, but more of a force of will, ideals and convictions.

[Sundown]

Maybe you missed the part were Luke was beating the snot out of Vader, and the Emperor was looking for Luke to finish him and join as his new apprentice. if you missed the manipulation of Vader in the OT, I can't help you, but its fairly obvious to most.

I didn't miss that part. Vader was being manipulated, as was Luke. And Luke did beat Vader eventually, whether it was because of Luke for a moment giving in to his passion, Vader being hesitant in the undecisiveness of what exactly to do with his son, or I suppose Luke just at that moment finally becoming more than His father, whether due to age, skill, or mechanical body... or a combination of all those things.

But Vader being beaten only because he had a mechanical body is overstated in the extreme. And to assume that Palpatine's manipulation of both of them automatically supports the assertion that Vader is a dissapointing robotic cripple is a little specious. Let me ask... was that your immediate impression when watching ROTJ the first time, when Luke finally beats Vader-- that it was only or even mainly because Vader was in actuality a gimp? That forces us to forget everything else we ever saw of Vader in all three movies, based on a 10 second scene of Luke being provoked to a frenzy.

That scene was meant to highlight how proficient Luke had become, along with the power of anger, passion, and the Dark Side-- and finally the tension and drama between father and son that allowed a victory that at first seemed unlikely. Not to show how crummy and crippled Vader was.

I might go as far as to agree that his age and body might have been a factor in how and why he was beaten, and that even as they fought, Palpatine was evaluating his choices and opportunities. But I hardly think Vader was so inept that he was looking to be replaced from the get go 20 years prior... at least that's not the OT seemed to imply.

Besides, it makes absolutely no sense that Palpatine would create in Vader, his most promising subject, this slow Frankenstein cripple when the technology was obviously around to create an even more agile and deadly servant in Grevious.

Again, I mention it for the benefit fo those who only see Vaders final incarnation as a suit of cool looking leather & armor with no loss of his former abilites.

For storytelling purposes, it isn't necessary for Vader's transformation to result in a loss certain fighting abilities. And even if that were true (and it appears to be so), it's still not necessary for the suit to render him less powerful overall than he used to be. The story hinges upon the fact that Vader experiences loss simply because he is now less human, that his only connection with others is by means of fear-- that he can't even function without wearing a mask that makes him a monster... and that he's not much less of a monster without it.

Even if Vader is more powerful than ever, he's still a prisoner, having lost his humanity until he finally gains it back in his final act of self-sacrifice. But to say that his suit must force upon him some gimpiness is to assume that power is still his ultimate concern. It seems to me more powerful storytelling to allow him to keep much of the power that he sought, but with a grave, grave cost.

A Vader who is just as deadly, albiet in different ways, but who is constantly conscious of his pain, his imprisonment, and his actual weakness seems a lot more compelling to me than one that goes, "Aw. I suck now. And master thinks so too. I guess I had it coming... I should just mope around and be good. Maybe help my son and turn back to a blow glowie of my fresh young self. Yeah, that's it."

However, is it so wrong for Lucas to take the slower pace of the OT duels into consideration when making the PT, and allow that perhaps they weren't as fast as they could have been had the participants been in their primes?

In some ways it makes some sense... but I didn't at all care for how that was liberally applied to every character, even if they were 800 years old and still 800 years old 20 years prior. We would of course imagine Obiwan being a little more mobile than the 70 year old Guiness we get to see.

However, Luke himself wasn't all that fast compared to Vader. A little more sprightly, yes. But not ridiculously so. Yet Palpatine considered him a promising prospect. From what we've seen, if we assume flashy = power and speed = uber, he'd be kind of a gimply Jedi. But I doubt anyone would claim that's what the movies were telling us.

-Al

[Hurin]

Yeah, I mean, I don't ever recall crying out for a reason that the OT duels were different/slower than the prequels. I just figured that it was because we had different standards for exciting fight/swordplay scenes now than we did then. . . and we didn't have an actor in a bulky suit with poor visibility. I remember noticing the disparity, but not having a problem with it. This really is just another example of Lucas fixing something that didn't need to be fixed, and (in the point of view of some) harming the story and/or characters in the process.

I and others have been called "Vader Worshippers" here. Now, they definitely exist. But, for the record, I'm not one of them. I've actually always been disturbed by my friend who has rooted for the Vader ever since I can remember, while I always rooted for Luke. I'm likewise disturbed by the wannabe-hip people who root for the Sith in these new films and cheer when the Jedi get massacred. I'm not a Vader apologist. I just think he was an incredibly good villain. And, by diminishing his power and the threat he represented, Lucas is not only diminishing him as a villain, but also diminishing the heroes that defeated him along with the story as a whole. That is why I have a problem with this latest bit of revisionism on the part of Lucas. It's not only uncessary, but detracts from the heroes and story as much as the villain.

H

Edited June 3, 2005 by Hurin

[Druna Skass]

Whoa, did they just clone the Comic Book Guy?!

[nathan]

Are you guys really arguing about wether Vader is crippled or not? Come on!

As seen in ESB Cybernetics are as good as the originals. In fact they may even be better. Lukes new hand looked and worked just the same as his original hand. It even takes a blaster bolt in ROTJ and keeps on working. So Vader having a cybernetic body is not going to be that big a problem. The only thing "Crippled" about him is that he has to wear an Environmental Body Armor when outside his special communications chamber. It certainly hasn't slowed him down any. He's still the terror of the galaxy. It was only until he had a long protracted fight with Luke and lost his hand that he started dragging. And he only died after taking a lot of lightning bolts from the emperer. So stop arguing about it. The difference between the new LS fights and the old LS fights is that all fights no days have to look like they came from a kung fu movie. Even 900 year old aliens fly around with the greatest of ease after hobbling in on a cane. It has nothing to do with cybernetics and everything to do with movie styles.

As for the Emperer, he wanted no one to oppose him. If he couldn't have Luke, Luke would die. He didn't nessiccarily want Vader dead. He had other Jedi working for him (if you go by the novels) but if it ment Luke joining the DS then so be it.

And Vader was loyal to the emperer up until the emperer betrayed him and Luke called for his daddy. "If you will not be turned then you must be destroyed." Sound familiar?

[Mr March]

However, I can honestly say there was always strong indication that Vader was a damaged person and his condition was certainly not favorable long before the prequels.  Vader's breathing was mechanically assisted and was always an obvious disability to me.  In TESB we learned that Vader was horribly scarred, which is not an optimal condition.  It was stated in RoTJ that he could not survive without his armor intact.  Then we have Ben always commenting on Vader in a context that did not speak of impressive cybernetic power...the context spoke of "less than a man" in a twisted mechanized form.  The original films never once gave me the impression that the mechanization of Vader was something he sought or that it made him more powerful.

Just my perspective on my pre-prequel feelings.

Good points, I agree with you there but I still wasn't thinking that Vader was weak because of these things.

When I first watched Ep.IV, I didn't know that his breathing was mechanically assisted. For all I knew, the dude wore a space helmet that gave him freaky ventilation. But just because I learned in ROTJ that he couldn't survive without his suit didn't signify that he was a weak cripple, it just made it seem more like a mechanized monster instead of a human.

Anyways, Stealth sucks y'all.

Well, while I always beleived Vader had been damaged watching the OT, I never felt that Vader's injuries were so severe that I would exaggerate and call him crippled or an invalid. Vader was obviously still a capable and powerful force. But what was clear enough was the permanently disfigured state that he was in. Obviously, that would have realistic implications for anyone, especially given the obvious extent of the damage.

As I recall, there was mention in the novelization of the OT that Vader was somewhat lesser than he was before his injuries. That's the only canon quote I can recall before the prequels that applies directly to his condition. Regardless, that's more than enough IMO. It is also in the RoTJ novelisation that makes specific mention of his breathing being regulated by machine, but we pretty muh know that from the films as is.

Edited June 3, 2005 by Mr March

[Noriko Takaya]

Just saw Episode III tonight and I have to say I was pleasantly surprised. I really liked this film and may go see it again. That's my input.

[lord_breetai]

However, I can honestly say there was always strong indication that Vader was a damaged person and his condition was certainly not favorable long before the prequels.  Vader's breathing was mechanically assisted and was always an obvious disability to me.  In TESB we learned that Vader was horribly scarred, which is not an optimal condition.  It was stated in RoTJ that he could not survive without his armor intact.  Then we have Ben always commenting on Vader in a context that did not speak of impressive cybernetic power...the context spoke of "less than a man" in a twisted mechanized form.  The original films never once gave me the impression that the mechanization of Vader was something he sought or that it made him more powerful.

Just my perspective on my pre-prequel feelings.

Good points, I agree with you there but I still wasn't thinking that Vader was weak because of these things.

When I first watched Ep.IV, I didn't know that his breathing was mechanically assisted. For all I knew, the dude wore a space helmet that gave him freaky ventilation. But just because I learned in ROTJ that he couldn't survive without his suit didn't signify that he was a weak cripple, it just made it seem more like a mechanized monster instead of a human.

Anyways, Stealth sucks y'all.

Iron Man needed his armour to live too...

Actually I think there might be a bit of a Dr. Doom/Iron Man inspiration to Vader.

I don't think Vader was to hindered by his armour. And when the Emperor first talked to Luke it seemed like turning him to the dark side hadn't occured to the Emperor yet.

"Yes... Yes he would be a powerful aly a great asset"

and at this point I think the two Sith really started plotting against each other each wanting to set Luke up as their new apprentice... but I don't think that the Emperor's mind was totally set yet.

Vader wasn't exactly trying to through the fight in Return of the Jedi... he just wanted to bring out enough anger and hatrid in Luke that he would turn to the dark side and see the wisdom of "ending this desctructive conflict" together with Vader "and ruling the galaxy as father and son"...

And I think while all this was going on Palp was watching the fight, enjoying the show kicking back with some popcorn (that last part is metophorical) and seeing what would happen... if Vader lost, then Luke would make a good replacement... if Luke lost then he'd know he already had the best in the biz...

But I could see the Emperor constantly wanting to trade up his apprentices, cause remember Sith apprentices kill their masters once they've learned enough. If the Empeoror was truly imortal then he probably wanted to keep an apprentice around for a while then kill them off and get a new one so that they'd never have time to betray him (hey he had three apprentices in three movies) .

Remember he told Yoda that Vader would become more powerful then both of them... he probably didn't want to wait for that to happen, or suspected that it had already happened and didn't want to wait for Vader to be ready to make his move.

[Hurin]

The difference between the new LS fights and the old LS fights is that all fights no days have to look like they came from a kung fu movie. Even 900 year old aliens fly around with the greatest of ease after hobbling in on a cane. It has nothing to do with cybernetics and everything to do with movie styles.

This is, of course, true. But Lucas's re-envisioned Star Wars now asserts that the differences can actually be explained within the fictional continuity by Vader being half-machine. Whether we like it or not, that's now Star Wars canon. Really, we're not even discussing whether that's the case or not, since Lucas is now very clear on it. But I think it's obvious that this is a change in the character (even for Lucas) while others have asserted that Vader has always been obviously crippled and slow. . . therefore no change has taken place at all. And finally, we can debate whether the change is necessary and/or whether its "residual effects" on the characters and story outweigh the actual value of explaining the disparities in the lightsaber duels. But. . . Lucas has spoken, and this is just now the way it is (and, in a sense, was).

And Vader was loyal to the emperer up until the emperer betrayed him and Luke called for his daddy.

Well, I'd disagree with that. Vader was looking forward to deposing the Emperor and taking control himself since even before he donned his mask. I know that's in the book. I think it might even be in the movie. And, of course, he openly speaks of deposing the emperor to Luke in ESB.

Edited June 3, 2005 by Hurin

[Kyubi]

Finally saw Sith and loved it! I'd rank it as the second best of the series. Don't know if this has been brought up before, but can jedis use the force to "fly"? We see them use the force levitate objects many times, can they use it to levitate themselves? It's something that I've been wondering about since ESB.

[Opus]

Finally saw Sith and loved it! I'd rank it as the second best of the series. Don't know if this has been brought up before, but can jedis use the force to "fly"? We see them use the force levitate objects many times, can they use it to levitate themselves? It's something that I've been wondering about since ESB.

I don't see any reason they couldnt levitate. They use the force to make huge leaps like Luke jumping out of the cabon-freeze chamber in ESB and Obi and Qui Gon jump all over the place in Ep1. I think flying might be a bit too much though.

[Hurin]

Finally saw Sith and loved it!  I'd rank it as the second best of the series.  Don't know if this has been brought up before, but can jedis use the force to "fly"?  We see them use the force levitate objects many times, can they use it to levitate themselves?  It's something that I've been wondering about since ESB.

I don't see any reason they couldnt levitate. They use the force to make huge leaps like Luke jumping out of the cabon-freeze chamber in ESB and Obi and Qui Gon jump all over the place in Ep1. I think flying might be a bit too much though.

In the book for EpIII, I believe that Dooku uses it to "glide". . . but not quite fly.

Edit: This is in the very beginning when Dooku enteres the room where Palpatine is being held. In the movie, he jumps/flips/somersaults down. In the book, he Force-glides.

H

Edited June 3, 2005 by Hurin

[azrael]

Finally saw Sith and loved it! I'd rank it as the second best of the series. Don't know if this has been brought up before, but can jedis use the force to "fly"? We see them use the force levitate objects many times, can they use it to levitate themselves? It's something that I've been wondering about since ESB.

Flying would probably take too much concentration. Levitating themselves would probably fall under flying, i.e. too much concentration. This is probably why they just jump. Also, if your not aware of your surroundings, you might levitate into a ceiling and hit your head, making you lose concentration and well...down you go.

[Seven]

Finally saw Sith and loved it!  I'd rank it as the second best of the series.  Don't know if this has been brought up before, but can jedis use the force to "fly"?  We see them use the force levitate objects many times, can they use it to levitate themselves?  It's something that I've been wondering about since ESB.

I don't see any reason they couldnt levitate. They use the force to make huge leaps like Luke jumping out of the cabon-freeze chamber in ESB and Obi and Qui Gon jump all over the place in Ep1. I think flying might be a bit too much though.

Actually, once Anakin and Obiwan were above the lava on the wreckage, weren't they both levitating whatever they were standing on? I mean did anyone notice they were flying upstream on the lava flow and not towards the dropoff? Anakin was standing on a flying robot, but what about Obiwan? He was on a large piece of wreckage, so I assume he was levitating it.

The part that bothers me is that when Obiwan says I have the high ground, why didn't Anakin just make whatever he was floating on just float even higher or take it up a little upstream so he could just walk over and kick Obiwans ass? I guess we can chalk it up to Sith overconfidence.

[azrael]

Actually, once Anakin and Obiwan were above the lava on the wreckage, weren't they both levitating whatever they were standing on?  I mean did anyone notice they were flying upstream on the lava flow and not towards the dropoff?  Anakin was standing on a flying robot, but what about Obiwan?  He was on a large piece of wreckage, so I assume he was levitating it.

The part that bothers me is that when Obiwan says I have the high ground, why didn't Anakin just make whatever he was floating on just float even higher or take it up a little upstream so he could just walk over and kick Obiwans ass?  I guess we can chalk it up to Sith overconfidence.

They were not levitating. Those were the worker platforms (i.e. platforms with repulsarlifts). Obi-wan was on a worker platform, Anakin on a droid. This is why they were able to float upstream on the lava.

Much of it was Sith overconfidence so I won't think about it too much. But if we must.... If he floats it farther upstream, Obi-wan makes a get away. If he floats the platform higher, the platform becomes a liability. Obi-wan can cut it down or he can jump on it and land hard to throw the weight off. Obi-wan was at an advantage at the high ground.

edit: I'm sure Obi-wan knew that Anakin would follow him. Unlike Darth Maul, Obi-wan really wasn't taunting him, just telling Anakin, whatever you do, you are at a disadvantage so don't do it.

Edited June 3, 2005 by azrael

[Hurin]

Finally saw Sith and loved it!  I'd rank it as the second best of the series.  Don't know if this has been brought up before, but can jedis use the force to "fly"?  We see them use the force levitate objects many times, can they use it to levitate themselves?  It's something that I've been wondering about since ESB.

I don't see any reason they couldnt levitate. They use the force to make huge leaps like Luke jumping out of the cabon-freeze chamber in ESB and Obi and Qui Gon jump all over the place in Ep1. I think flying might be a bit too much though.

Actually, once Anakin and Obiwan were above the lava on the wreckage, weren't they both levitating whatever they were standing on? I mean did anyone notice they were flying upstream on the lava flow and not towards the dropoff? Anakin was standing on a flying robot, but what about Obiwan? He was on a large piece of wreckage, so I assume he was levitating it.

The part that bothers me is that when Obiwan says I have the high ground, why didn't Anakin just make whatever he was floating on just float even higher or take it up a little upstream so he could just walk over and kick Obiwans ass? I guess we can chalk it up to Sith overconfidence.

Obi-Wan is standing on a repulsor-lift enabled lava miner/harvester.

Man, my geek quotient just went up a point having said that. And here I thought I was already maxed out.

As for Anakin just being able to use his droid to acheive the high ground. . . presumably, Obi-Wan would have just countered by leaping ahead to the even higher ground.

H

Edited June 3, 2005 by Hurin

[Seven]

Why doesn't anyone ever use the Force to just turn off the other guy's lightsabre?! Hahaha, everytime the other guy would try to power it back on, he'd just turn it back off. I always ask my friends that are hard core into Star Wars that question and all they can say is that it wouldn't make for a good action scene.

[Kyubi]

Flying would probably take too much concentration. Levitating themselves would probably fall under flying, i.e. too much concentration.

Sounds good to me. Just trying to explain away my second biggest problem (next to Ewoks) with ROTJ. Here we have the baddest dude in the galaxy and he gets offed not by a lightsaber or a laser blast, but by being dropped down a shaft. The force could be used to lift an x-wing and hurl large objects during battle, yet the Emperor wasn't able to keep himself from falling. I guess he could have been too exhausted from getting medieval on Luke's buttocks, but his destruction was as disappointing as blue chick's death.

[Druna Skass]

Just saw it again, and here's my question. The whole reason Anakin sided with Palpatine was because Palpatine promised that he could save Padme. So after she died what reason did Anakin have to stay with him? Nowhere else to go?

[Druna Skass]

Flying would probably take too much concentration. Levitating themselves would probably fall under flying, i.e. too much concentration.

Sounds good to me. Just trying to explain away my second biggest problem (next to Ewoks) with ROTJ. Here we have the baddest dude in the galaxy and he gets offed not by a lightsaber or a laser blast, but by being dropped down a shaft. The force could be used to lift an x-wing and hurl large objects during battle, yet the Emperor wasn't able to keep himself from falling. I guess he could have been too exhausted from getting medieval on Luke's buttocks, but his destruction was as disappointing as blue chick's death.

Well he was kind of hitting himself with the lighting too, I guess he was to stunned to react.

[Ghadrack]

I haven't watched the last RoTJ in the past few weeks, but is there ever any proof that the Emperor is actually dead in the end of RoTJ? He falls down the shaft but so did Luke. Being that he is the embodiment of Evil in the series I figured that there was always a chance he used the force to save himself down there like Luke did when Vader clipped off his hand...

[mikeszekely]

ut Lucas's re-envisioned Star Wars now asserts that the differences can actually be explained within the fictional continuity by Vader being half-machine. Whether we like it or not, that's now Star Wars canon. Really, we're not even discussing whether that's the case or not, since Lucas is now very clear on it. But I think it's obvious that this is a change in the character (even for Lucas) while others have asserted that Vader has always been obviously crippled and slow. . . therefore no change has taken place at all. And finally, we can debate whether the change is necessary and/or whether its "residual effects" on the characters and story outweigh the actual value of explaining the disparities in the lightsaber duels. But. . . Lucas has spoken, and this is just now the way it is (and, in a sense, was).

You'd know better than I, but I don't necessarily think that is the case. I mean, look at the Lucas quote you posted earlier.

But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become.

That doesn't have to mean that he's physically a cripple. It doesn't mean he's physically weaker, or that "Vader is a cripple" has become a canon explaination for why the lightsaber duels in OT aren't as flashy as in the PT. All it says to me is that machine Vader is not as powerful as Anakin Vader. I've taken that to mean more in the Force... Lucas has spent a great deal of time telling us how ridiculously powerful Anakin was, and how powerful he could have become. In losing some of his humanity, Vader lost some of his strength in the Force. Later, of course the Emperor wanted Luke to replace Vader as his apprentice... Luke had become stronger in the Force than Vader was. But that doesn't mean that Luke was stonger in the Force than Vader could have been.