Revenge of the Sith

[Agent ONE]

So, you're saying that, in essence, they wander the universe like "Kane from Kung-Fu?"

Ya know. . . it's funny you mention that, that's sorta the way I did consider the Jedi to be before the Prequels. I was sorta suprised to find them all centrally located on Coruscant. . . operating out of a central Police HQ "temple." Sorta too much like the SuperFriends and the Hall of Justice.

But again, that was just the impression I had based on what had trickled out over the decades. But which now must bend to the will of the Lucas.

But, to be monastic, you don't have to wander. The Great Jedi Temple could be seen as a correlary to a medieval monastary. . . the monks in most monastaries didn't own anything, and attemped to live a life of privation. But they had a roof over their heads, food, and a place to work, pray, and write. Which was their role in society (protecting the local community through prayer, and in turn, the local community supported them with necessities).

H

The vatican is in rome... At the time it was built Rome was the capital of Earth.

[Hurin]

The vatican is in rome... At the time it was built Rome was the capital of Earth.

[Oihan]

It's certainly tempting to see the typical good vs. evil conflict in the Force, but I'd speculate that that's not really the case.  The Force itself may not have an aspect that is "light" that represents all the things we value as good, and an aspect that is "dark" that represents the things we condemn as evil.  As chrono suggested, the Force just is.

The Jedi manipulate the Force in a way that is natural and in harmony with the Force.  They are mindful of the will of the Force.  They have very strict rules and codes to ensure that they are focused on the higher purpose.

The Dark Side of the Force, then, might represent the temptation to misuse the Force, to act against nature and the harmony of the Force, to forsake the will of the Force and use it for one's own will, for baser purposes.

Actually, I think I'd agree that the Force is just that... the Force. There isn't necessarily a duality of nature within the Force, a good side and a bad side competing in conflict with itself.

But as the movies seem to imply, there's certainly a "right" way to use the Force, and apparently a "wrong" way to use it. I think the differences in its use and observable effects aren't merely due to human perspective and projection-- looking at the same thing in two different ways and seeing two different things.

But rather it's two different approaches resulting in two very different and observable effects. And one of these ways appears to the using the force with balance and harmony in mind, while the other appears to be using it with power and gain in mind. So I think it's more than just a matter of "different perspectives"... but a matter of different application leading to real and actual differences in result.

I don't think we can characterize the Force as completely ambivalent to how its used and maligned, and thus maligned, chaotic, and "evil" uses of it are merely due to our constructs and exist only our imaginations. Order and harmony seems to be preferred.

-Al

You know what? FORGET the Force! It's all about the Schwartz! $

Dark Helmet: Careful, you idiot! I said across her nose, not up it!

Gunner: Sorry, Sir. Doing my best.

Dark Helmet: Who made that man a gunner?

Major a-hole: I did, Sir. He's my cousin.

Dark Helmet: Who is he?

Colonel Sandurz: He's an a-hole, Sir.

Dark Helmet: I know that. What's his name?

Colonel Sandurz: That is his name, Sir. a-hole. Major a-hole.

Dark Helmet: And his cousin?

Colonel Sandurz: He's an a-hole, too, Sir. Gunner's mate, First Class, Philip a-hole.

Dark Helmet: How many a-holes we got on this ship anyhow?

Crew: Yo!

Dark Helmet: I knew it. I'm surrounded by a-holes! Keep firing, a-holes!

[chrono]

The vatican is in rome... At the time it was built Rome was the capital of Earth.

Yep agree with that!

Seriously though if you take into consideration that many of Lucas's ideas for "the Force" come from East & Central Asia then you begin to easly see the dualism that ALL the jedi/sith represent. Toss in a slight Western Space Opera twist and there you go!!!

The Jedi represent both the community and the individual. He's for the community(society in general) by not going against the flow of it's culture and helping the community more at large then singularly. He's the individual because he must balance his 'spirit'(ki,chi,soul,whatever) with the demands of his body(ala Buddism).

The Sith represent the individual because they feel they are above the community.

It's funny because it's soooooooo anti-individual, and yet Americans suck it up!!!

[renegadeleader1]

I have a question that is pissing me off

Is Captain Antilles related to Wedge Antilles?

they look alot alike but it makes me angree he would change Wedge.

[Hurin]

I have a question that is pissing me off

Is Captain Antilles related to Wedge Antilles?

they look alot alike but it makes me angree he would change Wedge.

I think he looks too old in EpIII to be Wedge (who is young himself in EpIV). So, they're probably different people. Though they may be family relations.

[Duke Togo]

They are related, they are not the same person. Lucas had asked Denis Lawson (Wedge) to play the role of the older Antilles, but he turned it down.

[HWR MKII]

Capt Antillies is from Alderaan where as Wedge Antillies is from Corellia.

Dennis Lawson is related to Ewan McGregor. Ewan is his nephew. The 2 antillies are not related however its just a name that got reused.

[Sundown]

The vatican is in rome... At the time it was built Rome was the capital of Earth.

Would have been a nice gesture to let the Chinese empire, Native Americans, Zulu and whoever else in on where their capital was being built.

-Al

[Duke Togo]

Capt Antillies is from Alderaan where as Wedge Antillies is from Corellia.

Dennis Lawson is related to Ewan McGregor. Ewan is his nephew. The 2 antillies are not related however its just a name that got reused.

That's not what I've heard. First off, we don't know where Captain Antilles is from. Secondly, why would he ask DENIS Lawson to play the character if there was not to be some relation? Third, its not a re-used name, Captain Antilles was mentioned in the Original Trilogy.

Now Bail Antilles, he is from Alderaan.

[Opus]

I have a question that is pissing me off

Is Captain Antilles related to Wedge Antilles?

they look alot alike but it makes me angree he would change Wedge.

Isn't Captain Antilles the dude who gets his neck snapped by Vader in the first few minutes of ANH.

[Wes]

I thought they keep on saying that the Antilles weren't related. But I thought it was stupid then to even give them the same name, seeing as the relation would be implied.

[Duke Togo]

I have a question that is pissing me off

Is Captain Antilles related to Wedge Antilles?

they look alot alike but it makes me angree he would change Wedge.

Isn't Captain Antilles the dude who gets his neck snapped by Vader in the first few minutes of ANH.

Yeah, that's him. He seems to be another one of these characters that the Prequels have messed with age wise. He doesn't seem to age much between III and IV, while Obi Wan aged what, 30 years? And there are only 20 years between the two episodes?

[Duke Togo]

From what I understand, the original novel states that the Tantive IV is of Corellian origin. Take that with a grain of salt, the novels are practically EU.

[lord_breetai]

From what I understand, the original novel states that the Tantive IV is of Corellian origin. Take that with a grain of salt, the novels are practically EU.

Yes hence the class "Corellian Corvette"

[Warmaker]

From what I understand, the original novel states that the Tantive IV is of Corellian origin. Take that with a grain of salt, the novels are practically EU.

I've played many of the old space based Star Wars games, namely the X-Wing series (not the c**ppy Rogue Squadron games).

The Tantive IV belongs to a class of small vessels called "Corellian Corvettes," proudly made in Corellia!

[HWR MKII]

Im not talking about EU or Movie based books. Im going from sources based directly on the movies themselves, IE tech journal, StarWars insider interviews with lucas. I have to see if i still have it but there was an issue of the insider that had a breakdown of who is related to who as far as character and actor. Wedge was in it and it montioned nothing about his character being related to capt antillies just that he was related to ewan. but it did give all the luke,vader, leia relation stuff throughout the timeline. If i can find it il post a scan. It may even be available online.

All i know is that Wedge is not related to Capt antillies. If anyone is related to the Captain its Bail Antillies. Also the Tantive ship was designed on corellia but its port of ownership and registry is Alderaan.

[Duke Togo]

Antillies is *supposed* to be a fairly common Corellian name, kinda like Smith or Jones. But, its widely reported that Denis Lawson was offered the role of Captain Antilles in Episode III, which would lead you to believe...

[lord_breetai]

Antillies is *supposed* to be a fairly common Corellian name, kinda like Smith or Jones. But, its widely reported that Denis Lawson was offered the role of Captain Antilles in Episode III, which would lead you to believe...

I'm pretty sure in one of the novels Wedge flat out states that he's not related to the good Captain.

[renegadeleader1]

so Wedge is an alderaanian not a corellian.

DAMN YOU LUCAS! RAPED MY CHILDHOOD!

In a way it sucks yet its also kinda cool and no matter what the X-wing series of books and comics are still good

replace the words Tycho Celchu with the words Wedge Antilles.

[Duke Togo]

Antillies is *supposed* to be a fairly common Corellian name, kinda like Smith or Jones. But, its widely reported that Denis Lawson was offered the role of Captain Antilles in Episode III, which would lead you to believe...

I'm pretty sure in one of the novels Wedge flat out states that he's not related to the good Captain.

the novels are EU, they aren't canon.

[lord_breetai]

Antillies is *supposed* to be a fairly common Corellian name, kinda like Smith or Jones. But, its widely reported that Denis Lawson was offered the role of Captain Antilles in Episode III, which would lead you to believe...

I'm pretty sure in one of the novels Wedge flat out states that he's not related to the good Captain.

the novels are EU, they aren't canon.

Yeah yeah... I knew you'd say that... still it's there. But then according to some EU sources Owen Lars is Obi-wan's brother wich is obvioulsy not the case.

[Mr March]

I view cannon as "If it's not in the movie, then it doesn't apply.". Keeps things clear and clean. Besides the EU is alot of different writers playing in someone elses playground. So it's little more then fanfiction at it's most legal.

This is a good rule to live by...for the most part. George Lucas does say many a time that the films are the "true" Star Wars and only the films. However, when we start talking legally with respect to canon, it's a bit different. The scripts, radio dramas, and the novelisations of the six films are also legally considered canon as per the official policy of Lucasfilm Ltd. This makes perfect sense, since much of that material was written by Lucas himself.

Once you get into other areas like the EU novels, the DH comic books, and the video games, they are outside of Lucasfilm (since they are not films) and hence they would be considered official, but definitely subordinate to the films (and the canon material). A bit of nitpicking, but what's stated and what is legal is a distinction worth nitpicking I believe.

[lord_breetai]

edit

Edited May 27, 2005 by lord_breetai

[HWR MKII]

I wouldnt go calling the books fan fiction though considering that the authors who write them are given story arcs with many key details by lucasfilms publishing department. The authors can write whatever they want as long as the key points given to them are made and mentioned. Could be character deaths, Certain planets being destroyed or children being born. All of the EU material was written that way. Alot of the existing character background is also "given" to the authors by lucasfilm as well.

[mikeszekely]

I wouldnt go calling the books fan fiction though considering that the authors who write them are given story arcs with many key details by lucasfilms publishing department. The authors can write whatever they want as long as the key points given to them are made and mentioned. Could be character deaths, Certain planets being destroyed or children being born. All of the EU material was written that way. Alot of the existing character background is also "given" to the authors by lucasfilm as well.

Lucasbooks isn't George Lucas himself. Some Joe Schmoe at Lucasbooks may come up with some overarching plot, but unless it was Lucas' idea, it's Joe Schmoe's fanfiction. It's just official endorsed (yet non-canon) fanfiction.

[Opus]

I don't quite understand why "canon" matters so much. I take what I like and disregard the rest. I don't really care who's idea it is, if it's good it's in.

[Mr March]

I don't quite understand why "canon" matters so much. I take what I like and disregard the rest. I don't really care who's idea it is, if it's good it's in.

For everyday fans, it's not really an issue. Canon only becomes an issue when a fan comes to realize some fact given in a Star Wars product contradicts another well known fact. When such a contradiction occurs, it's really nice to know just how to resolve it using the canon policy.

[Uxi]

Important to note that the novelizations of the movies ARE canon, as are the screenplays... in increased order of "magnitutde."

As far as the EU, it IS official. There is no contradiction that is not irrelevent minutia. Remember LFL's stance that while the movies can be considered a camera on live events, the decreased orders of "canon" are sort of like documentaries, colored by perspective.

The rest of the EU is everything from jouralistic articles to tabloids. While some stretch the "truth" (as it were), all of them have some fragment of it. But if it has a legal Star Wars logo on it, it's been screened by the continuity folks at a branch of the Great Plaid One's Empire.

Yes, the same ability to ignore a poorer piece of the EU (something by Kevin J Anderson, for example) lets one ignore something in the movies themselves. The distinction between "canon" and "official" is as irrelevent as those who decry the EU.

[Agent ONE]

The vatican is in rome... At the time it was built Rome was the capital of Earth.

Would have been a nice gesture to let the Chinese empire, Native Americans, Zulu and whoever else in on where their capital was being built.

-Al

Sorry *civilized Earth.

[Chewie]

Palpatine wasn't wearing makeup. He was normal. When he was Sidious he had a cloak on to hide his normal features. Mace was using his lightsaber to deflect the lighting back at Palpatine. Palaptine in turn was intensifying the lightning so he looked more desperate to Anakin. His muscles melted right off of his bones. Anakin turns like a bitch, Mace dies. The end.

[USMCBebop]

I view cannon as "If it's not in the movie, then it doesn't apply.". Keeps things clear and clean. Besides the EU is alot of different writers playing in someone elses playground. So it's little more then fanfiction at it's most legal.

This is a good rule to live by...for the most part. George Lucas does say many a time that the films are the "true" Star Wars and only the films. However, when we start talking legally with respect to canon, it's a bit different. The scripts, radio dramas, and the novelisations of the six films are also legally considered canon as per the official policy of Lucasfilm Ltd. This makes perfect sense, since much of that material was written by Lucas himself.

Up until three years ago, I believed Owen Lars was related to Obi-wan. The EU novels I read in the Star Wars Insider are only interpretations not canon.

But I like the novels if there's something in the movies that need more explaining.

Edited May 27, 2005 by USMCBebop

[Southpaw Samurai]

The vatican is in rome... At the time it was built Rome was the capital of Earth.

Would have been a nice gesture to let the Chinese empire, Native Americans, Zulu and whoever else in on where their capital was being built.

-Al

Sorry *civilized Earth.

If by 'civilized' you mean 'by Greco-Roman standards', then I suppose you're correct.

Anyway, what I find funny about the Owen Lars is Obi-wan's brother issue is that it originally came from the *ROTJ novelization*, not just some random EU book (I'm curious if recent reprints have changed that at all). Now, the novelizations are to be taken with a grain of salt as well, but one would think Lucas had a closer eye on what was being put into those....heck, like most novelizations, I'm betting that the Owen/Ben thing was put in the novel because it was originally in some draft of the script and/or extra notes Lucas wrote for the screenplay. Despite what some die hard fans (especially the younglings these days), Lucas has been known to change his mind from time to time. After all, according to 'canon', Greedo went from being slow on the draw to being the Stormtrooper marksmanship instructor....

Heck, maybe Owen IS Obi-wan's brother...movies don't outright say they're not. Obi-wan might be from the Lars side of the family...could be why Obi-wan suggested Tattooine in TPM and why Owen and Beru don't find it odd some bearded robed guy they never met drops off a kid for them.

[shiyao]

really? rome the most civilized at the time? and i guess america is the capital of earth now?

[Sumdumgai]

really? rome the most civilized at the time? and i guess america is the capital of earth now?

Rome had running water and stuff, that's pretty civilised to me.

The massive orgies where venerial diseases were traded like pogs or magic cards (choose your generation) is another story. Same with the lead poisoning from lead pipes to transport said running water.

Which America are you talking about? United States? North? South? Central (Montazuma's revenge anyone? Don't drink the water, don't breathe the air)?

edit: insertion of something Star Wars Episode III: I was half-expecting Obi-wan to force throw Anakin off that floating thingy over the lava river. I guess neither of them did it to avoid the thing that happened when they tried to force toss each other.

Edited May 27, 2005 by Sumdumgai