Why do the Japanese hate Nobunaga?

[lord_breetai]

I just found out something about the next instalment of Sakura Taisen

"As previously announced, Sakura Taisen V's main villain will be Oda Nobunaga, who aims to rebuild Azuchi Castle in New York. Nobunaga's sidekicks include Ran Maru, a little girl with rabbit ears, the powerful female warrior Kokuryuu Hime, the evil monk Dokubo Bou, Yume Dono who is capable of controlling bugs and Tsugaru Bi, a beautiful man capable of turning others into stone."

How many times has Nobunaga been the villian in an Anime or Video game? why do the Japanese hate him? I don't get it... he came really close to unifying Japan and Tokugawa who was a Protege' of his finnished the job... no really why do they hate him? I don't get it. Why is the only game I've ever played that potrays him in a good light Kessen a game he's dead before the start of?

I realize that there are many reasons why Nobunaga might not be liked and why he can be debated about forever. But why in anime do they always pick on the poor guy? Can anyone name me an anime that was pro-Nobunaga?

I mean he did some nasty things like wiping out the Hiei monks, but he did what he thought he had to do to unify his country... I see a lot more praise for Tokugowa who probably has even more blood on his hands then Nobunaga.

Yes the stories that he was in league with demons made for great video game material... but I think that had a lot more to do with his ready acceptance of Foreigners and their technology then any actual contact with dark forces...

Yeah, Nobunaga propbably deservs some of it but I wonder why there is so much Oda bashing out there.

[Graham]

Sorry, I have absolutely no idea who Nobunaga is. Isn't he a character from Doraemon?

Is Sakura Taisen that anime where they have those silly looking robots that look like boilers with legs and arms?

Graham,

(Revelling in his ignorance)

[lord_breetai]

Sorry, I have absolutely no idea who Nobunaga is. Isn't he a character from Doraemon?

Is Sakura Taisen that anime where they have those silly looking robots that look like boilers with legs and arms?

Graham,

(Revelling in his ignorance)

Um... well you're right on Sakura Taisen it is the video game series with the Robots that kinda look like that... though they've been evolving and the new Stars are very sleek and sexy looking convertable fighter planes. It's bar none my favorite series of video games.

Nobunaga is an important figure in Japanese history who wanted to unite all of Japan under one sword but was assinated before he could finnish the job (if you've ever played Onimusha he's the main bad guy of that series).

[LePoseur]

Here's a theory or too for ya to chew on.

A little disclosure first though, I'm a Oda lover. Out of the three (Nobunaga, Hideyoshi, and Ieyasu) I think Oda was/is the hands down favourite in my book. Why? Well he got the ball rolling and shook up the power structure, was quick to adapt to new ideas (firearms), cunning (cutting of the head of the snake with Imagawa in an all or nothing battle) and truly seemed able to be able to pick out superior qualities in others (Toyotomi Hideyoshi). Still, he had his faults, and that I think it was has left him open to being the bad guy.

First off, he was, and I mean truly, ruthless. I mean, burning a whole mountain of men, women and children (Mt. Hiei) just to get the monks? Yikes! Let alone that one action set him up as a religious threat to all who truly believed in Buddhism. That's just one example, but yeah, that kinda leaves him open to be painted in a bad light.

Second, I think Oda really runs counter to what a lot of Japanese really think is the best road. I mean, in a nutshell I see "control" as being the buzz word for Japan in almost everything. You can't have that be your goal and then glorify someone who sidesteps the rules (coincidently, I also suspect this same trait is what makes him appeal to American students so much). Anyhow, in a country where Tokugawa's answer of "Wait," in the old school story of what to do with the bird who won't sing, is considered to be the wisest what do you expect, I guess.

Finally, there's the oblivious, Tokugawa ended up winning the whole deal, and setting up almost 300 years of uninterrupted rule. When you have that kind of time, you can always make your former opponents look bad.

Anyhow, just a theory.

Edited May 19, 2005 by LePoseur

[lord_breetai]

Anyhow, in a country where Tokugawa's answer of "Wait," in the old school story of what to do with the bird who won't sing, is considered to be the wisest what do you expect, I guess.

Nobunaga says: "Nightingale, if you do not sing, I shall kill you."

Hideyoshi says: "Nightingale, if you do not sing, I shall make you."

Ieyasu says: "Nightingale, if you do not sing now, I shall wait until you do."

Honestly (though I like Ieyasu and Oda both) I think Ieyasu's answer is the most wise...

You raise a lot of good points though, thanks.

And yes the Hiei incident was very Ruthless (why I made mention of it in my initial post), but was anything Tokugawa did any less? I mean he's the one who killed all the Christians and foriengers.

Anyway... this has been bothering me for some time but I never really liked any of the anti-nobunaga series and stuff (well Onimusha a bit) until now.

[Lynx7725]

Well, as one of the three acknowledged men who united Japan in the 1600's, Nobunaga's name has the sort of instant recognition amongst the Japanese, I guess..

Tokugawa is too attached to the 300 years rule (and the eventual power trip they went into.. and too closely tied to the Meiji Restoration). Hideyoshi always struck me as sort of a middleman, but I didn't study Japanese history that thoroughly.

As for Nobunaga's burning down of the Mt. Hiei, one history book commented that he did it not because he is opposed to the religion, but because it suited his needs at that time. The warrior/ armed monks of Mt. Hiei is a problem for pretty much all daimyos then, but Nobunaga apparently took the brunt of their attacks. After Mt. Hiei, Nobunaga turned around to court the religious heads when the need came up.. about par for course during the Sengoku Jidai.

[LePoseur]

Oh, don't get me wrong. Of course he only did it because they were a threat to him, I don't think it had anything to do with him being out to squash Buddhism. Honestly I don't think he cared about religion at all, but there in lies the problem. The monks had a strong power structure and were actively trying to dispose of him so he wiped them out. The point is many other people did believe and, although they were also sometimes a pain, tried to work around them.

It could be suggested that Tokugawa's persecution of the Christians on the other hand was an attempt to quell the fears of the religious. Then again, I think, while have the extra bonus of that, it was just his own beliefs that led him to do that. I mean on a comparison threat level they were nothing. Besides the marriage of Buddhism to the Shogunate that happened under Tokugawa gave him another excellent way to control the masses.

As for Hideyoshi, he seemed to be genuinely clever when he was young, but unfortunately started believing too much in the legend he had built up around himself and it not only made him loony, but crushed his family line. As for his line in the poem, I've also seen it as "Nightingale, if you do not sing, I shall make you want to." Now I've never see the original Japanese version, but there are shades of difference in those two translations that are pretty big.

Finaly, I'd say don't read too deeply into the whole Oda as a bad guy thing. In most cases they want to tie into someone of name value that kids might know. Oda fits the bill as the best choice. I think that's about the extent of it.

Edited May 19, 2005 by LePoseur

[lord_breetai]

I suppose... a big thing with Sakura Taisen has always been drawing on Japanese culture and history... I've learned so many obscure customs that are now forgotten even by most Japanese and so many interesting tidbits of Japanese history from the series... I really think Ohji ment the series partly to teach young japanese more about their culture and history... and I suppose having Oda in there (even as a demonic villian) can probably do that, now that the series is set in New York and not Japan. (when it was in France they had one of the characters be a bit of a Japophile who was always asking Oogami questions about Japan).

[Southpaw Samurai]

Mori Ranmaru has been fully converted into a girl? With bunny ears!?!? What is this world coming to? The poor guy's spirit must be wailing in agony over how his image has been treated in recent years.

I don't believe Japanese have any hate for Oda Nobunaga. He's been used in positive light in a number of films (even a Takeda-centric movie like Kagemusha displays Nobunaga with respect and even a little admiration). In video games, Kessen 3 recently made him the HERO of all things. I believe it's just because Nobunaga's as well known as, say, George Washington is in the U.S. and he's a perfect example of a ruthless authority figure that people can fight against. He's always been known as a 'demon lord' (but, then again a lot of samurai were named 'demon of....(locale)' for their ferocity, so it's not ncessarily an 'evil' name). As others have stated, Nobunga was known for being brutal (although not necessarily anymore so than other daimyo of the period), for his distasteful embrace of European culture (although he wasn't converting as much as simply placating the foreigners in order to assimilate their technology), and for turning said technology on his opponents.

Nobunaga's just a big, famous, intriguing character who happens to be easily convertible into a central villain, that's all.

[lord_breetai]

I had never heard of Mori Ranmaru before and was going to say that maybe it was a coincience that STV had a character named that... but...

"0da is also remembered for his love story with the bishônen Mori Ranmoru, which set the pattern for other officers' taking beautiful youths for lovers, enforcing a tradition of open homosexuality in the Japanese military"

I don't see why they'd change it though there have always been homosexual characters in ST... that wouldn't be a reason in and of itself to change Ranmaru... now I'm curious how/if she'll tie into the real Ranmaru.

A pic of the character has been attatched.

[Warmaker]

In the early 90s, back over in Vallejo, California, the local "international channel" of course had their Japanese block of television.

I used to love it since they frequently showed Samurai movies/series. I recall seeing one covering Takeda Shingen's life. A bunch of Samurai series also. But the best I saw was this series simply called "Nobunaga." I loved that show! It starts towards the last years of his father's life and all the way to Nobunaga's own death. His rise to power in Owari, his insane victory against a much, much larger army of Imagawa's, his dealings with the Portuguese missionaries (one of which frequently showed up or narrated the show from his point of view), and all the way to him nearly unifying Japan.

The series showed his sharpness in tactics and strategy, willingness to utilize new forms of warfare, and of course his ruthlessness. It showed quite a bit of how he "discovered" Hideyoshi and his dealings with his ally, Ieyasu. Then there's the battles, which the series carried dumptrucks full of. I mean, the man was attacked at several points by many Daimyo simultaneously. And he still won! The battles looked great, too.

For as great as Hideyoshi or Ieyasu were, they would have been nothing if Nobunaga had not succeeded as much as they did. He pretty much crushed most of the major opposition.

Edited May 19, 2005 by Warmaker

[Druna Skass]

Well if you're a Nobunaga fan then go pick up Kessen III, you play as Nobunaga and have Hideyoshi and Tokugawa as your lackies.

[bandit29]

Well if you're a Nobunaga fan then go pick up Kessen III, you play as Nobunaga and have Hideyoshi and Tokugawa as your lackies.

Might as well pick up Samurai Warriors then too. You can play as Nobunaga, Mori Ranmaru and Hideyoshi(in Samurai Warriors Extreme Legends.) IIRC Capcom's Devil Kings(Sengoku Basara) will feature them also.

[ewilen]

Great discussion, very informative. I'm guessing that Nobunaga TV series is this.

There's an old Mac game called "Nobunaga's Ambition", by the way. I remember that I enjoyed it at the time.

[Warmaker]

Great discussion, very informative. I'm guessing that Nobunaga TV series is this.

There's an old Mac game called "Nobunaga's Ambition", by the way. I remember that I enjoyed it at the time.

It's this series that I saw. It was from 1992, according to this.

I also recall playing Nobunaga's Ambition. My friend rented it for his NES and we played for hours together. He was Uesugi Kenshin, I was playing as Oda Nobunaga. That game played in the same basic style as the other cool Romance of the Three Kingdoms games, so it always nice and familiar.

If it wasn't for KOEI, there'd be almost no Samurai-centric games over here in the US.

Edited May 19, 2005 by Warmaker

[peter]

I don't think the Japanese hate Nobunaga at all. I read this book called Taiko by Yoshikawa Eiji that didn't really portray him as evil, just misunderstood.

[peter]

Anyhow, in a country where Tokugawa's answer of "Wait," in the old school story of what to do with the bird who won't sing, is considered to be the wisest what do you expect, I guess.

Nobunaga says: "Nightingale, if you do not sing, I shall kill you."

Hideyoshi says: "Nightingale, if you do not sing, I shall make you."

Ieyasu says: "Nightingale, if you do not sing now, I shall wait until you do."

Honestly (though I like Ieyasu and Oda both) I think Ieyasu's answer is the most wise...

You raise a lot of good points though, thanks.

And yes the Hiei incident was very Ruthless (why I made mention of it in my initial post), but was anything Tokugawa did any less? I mean he's the one who killed all the Christians and foriengers.

Anyway... this has been bothering me for some time but I never really liked any of the anti-nobunaga series and stuff (well Onimusha a bit) until now.

Ieyasu was not wise, he was an opportunist and he was lucky. The timing couldn't be more perfect for him because Nobunaga and Hideyoshi did all the work for him. If Nobunaga was not betrayed, Ieyasu would probably be waiting forever.

[lord_breetai]

Peter I ment the answer itself is the most wise not the person... though I have as much respect for Tokugawa as I do Nobunaga .

[lord_breetai]

Update just finnished the game... okay seeing how they end this I'll concede they make him the villian of a lot of games probably do more to his personality of being ruthless and and ends justify the means.

SPOILERS for Sakura Taisen V

Nobunaga is a very graceful looser... And after almost killing me and my team... trying to make me kill my team or have them kill me. Trying to corrupt us... almost destroying New York... umm killing Ran Maru when she tried to sheild me (which was pretty spontanious). He gracefully accpets is defeat and is very nice and cival and fades away.

At the end my character says "Nobunaga wa watashitachi no koko no nakasa". Oh that's nice "Nobunaga is in our hearts". That's nice... that's sweet.

Okay I retract my why do they hate him. Cause at least in this case it's obvious the creator really likes him.

[Jolly Rogers]

So whose ending did you get?

[lord_breetai]

kinda off the topic there but I got Sagitta I really like Ratchet and Gemini too (Ratchet's probably my fave but all three are really good) so I'll get Ratchet's next.

Edited August 30, 2005 by lord_breetai

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Its like Cao Cao from China's three kingdoms era. He ALWAYS gets painted as the baddie.

[Akilae]

Its like Cao Cao from China's three kingdoms era. He ALWAYS gets painted as the baddie.

324450[/snapback]

Well, that depends on which of the accounts you read... according to the more historically accurate one, Cao Cao is actually portrayed as a cunning, capable, and honorable ruler. The other one, being more dramatic and somewhat mythological in how it portrays the people, sees him as deceptive, ruthless, and driven. However both agree that he was a very smart and talented individual.