macross ace

[Zentrandude]

you can proly say that with macross having so much star trek incidents in it.

[JB0]

heh funny I would think fps would bring out drivers with tunnel vision

Heh.

Apparently it trains people to track moving objects well(like cars and pedestrians) and keep their eyes on the dash and the road at the same time.

I'd have to dig the study up again.

Its already known max would seperate from his air wing and fight soloist which makes it easier to spot it doesn't mean roy wasn't as good since hes giving orders and helping his comrads. for example the zebra stripes makes it hard for a preditor to single out its prey unless one is out of the pack at the time.

Surely Millia considered this.

...

Of course, she may also have assumed that anyone skilled enough to draw her attention WOULD have risen thorugh the ranks, and so not worried about it. Would've hurt even worse when she found out Max wasn't even high-ranking. You know, if she hadn't fallen madly in love.

the city was in the legs but the military section was in the crouch part (go figure )

but the building don't look like military buildings (barracks, exchange, admin, ect...)

*shrugs*

I guess people just walked a long way to get out onto the arms after they landed.

if i remember it misa tells roy that one seems to be after max and roy then tells him to go away from the battle and the macross since they are still loading up supplies. then milla runs into the macross so max had to chase after her.

Maybe...

I really need to rewatch the show sometime soon.

yah the courtship was bit messed up but since it was culture shock its ok.  the knife part I doubt she realy wanted to kill max she was already taken during the arcade battle.

I dunno. She seemed pretty serious about inflicting sharp stabbity wounds upon him.

...

I still hate AnimeFiend for that episode.

[Wheels]

yah the courtship was bit messed up but since it was culture shock its ok.  the knife part I doubt she realy wanted to kill max she was already taken during the arcade battle.

I dunno. She seemed pretty serious about inflicting sharp stabbity wounds upon him.

...

I still hate AnimeFiend for that episode.

Yeah, I get the felling that Max was sweating through this knife fight, or he seemed under duress, even though it wasn't animated. Or should I say animated right.

[Zentrandude]

the city was in the legs but the military section was in the crouch part (go figure )

but the building don't look like military buildings (barracks, exchange, admin, ect...)

*shrugs*

I guess people just walked a long way to get out onto the arms after they landed.

if I was stuck inside a space ship for a year I would walk/drive a long way to get to that sweet fresh air.

[White]

You guys aren't giving Hikaru enough credit for keeping his Wingmen alive when he's off fighting people. Best example is when he fights Kamjin on the deck of the Macross, he recognizes the leader and goes after him himself, sparing his wingmates the risk of tangling with him. If Max was truly as hot as you all say he is, then Hikaru would have ordered Max to take him. There is a reason that Hikaru was always promoted before Max. The final battle of SW1 also shows this, with Hikaru being very serious and whatnot.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I'm not saying hikaru doesn't deserve credit for his skill, just highlighting that max's skills seem to come from nature. (like how some people are born with a gift and can't explain why they are so good at certain things.)

Whereas it seems hikaru developed skill gradually and being a fan of flying, like roy, he gets better with experiene and reaches a plateau like every normal human being where they rise slowly and show limits. (Roy showed some limits getting his valk damaged for example. This is an indication he can't just dodge everything when matched against skilled adversaries of his level of skill or above. Unlike max who seemed to fly right through milia's (an elite zentradi ace - reknowned amoungst all zentradi like some legend) mini missiles and not get hit. Not even scratched or sign of stress.

If max was about equal to milia (as oppsed to better) then he would be getting heavily damaged the way hikaru was against kamjin rather than consistantly dodging milia's attacks as if he could anticipate her every move and have the reflexes to respond close to 100% of the time to avoid damage. A better pilot should be able to demonstrate superiority in less total missed shots over attempts, and lower damage to you vs damage you done to the enemy. (the ideal would be to completely kill the pilot if you can't disable thier mech, and to not take any damage...oh and using as little ammo as possible - meaning you possess bloody good accuracy that you can even controll where your shot lands on the moving target, not just hitting it in a random spot by chance.)

If you can show consistancy in maintaining a high ratio of shooting accuracy (barely any missed shots) as well as a high ratio of not getting hit(dodging everything they can throw at you), against someone very highly skilled...then I think you deserve to be described as being "better" instead of equal. From the point of view of average pilots they might both seem very very good and therefor I can see the average people wanting to describe them as "equals". But within that very very high level of skills there are distinctions within that level too. Milia had 3 chances to prove her superiority and lost all 3. That shows that max is consistantly able to fend off her attacks while she wasn't able to fend his off. If max wanted to end her life he may possibly have been able to do it on the first mech battle if milia didn't retreat and forfeit the duel. (shameful thing to do if this was a tournament and there were rules saying: "you must keep going on until one loses" to prove who is better)

That would be like if you forfeited a VS Match in the middle of an online game against somebody you chose to challenge, and not having it counted as a loss in the records when you chose to conveniently call it off just because things weren't going your way. (no ammo left, damage mech needing repair, lack of environmental or psycological advantage)

Oh and if hikaru gets credit for leading a team, so does roy and so does milia and so does kamjin. I don't think that should be used as an excuse because those people you have helping you, can be advantageous too in combat. (by acting as decoys and distractions sometimes ) Like in sport if you can't co-ordinate an effective strategy based on what you know of your own team's limits versus your enemies limits, you deserve the screw ups (for not having awareness and intelligence) and should take responsbility for them rather than blaming your own guys. Similarly if the opposing team screws up commanding thier guys, (underestimating or overestimating thier sklls) and creating thier strategy poorly and excuting it sloppily, then they have to take responsibility too. (you should be training them) With more experience than guys under your command, you have no excuse to not take the blame for failure as a team. People who fight without some strategy even if it is something one-on-one and simple like boxing or tennis, can't whinge to the opposition that "conditions are unfair", since those conditions apply to your opponent too. (And don't forget that bit in bye bye mars episode where kamjin has one of his own guys giving away thier position because he is too trigger-happy. That will probably go on his record and tarnish his reputation and this would only work against him in future for failing in missions. So the burden of "having crappy inexperienced pilots to babysit" goes both ways.)

Edited May 28, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[JB0]

the city was in the legs but the military section was in the crouch part (go figure )

but the building don't look like military buildings (barracks, exchange, admin, ect...)

*shrugs*

I guess people just walked a long way to get out onto the arms after they landed.

if I was stuck inside a space ship for a year I would walk/drive a long way to get to that sweet fresh air.

This is true. And I guess a 2-3 mile drive isn't that far, though parking'd be a real pain.

[JB0]

You guys aren't giving Hikaru enough credit for keeping his Wingmen alive when he's off fighting people.

Like Max's first battle?

Where Hikaru just sat there stunned as Max blasted things, and flipping into battroid mode just because it was a better-looking kill? And then blamed his slow performance on the fact that he was having to protect his new charges?

Hikaru was a respectable pilot(don't get the impression I'm trying to say otherwise). And by the time he got Vermillion team, he'd grown into a respectable combat pilot too.

Furthermore, he'd seen Roy in action, who was most certainly an even more skilled combat pilot.

And he was STILL stopped dead in his tracks by Max's performance, despite his own familiarty with good combat pilots. He didn't just go "Wow, he's good for a newbie" and keep on fighting. He stopped and stared until he was berated by his superiors for it.

Max was good enough to leave a close friend of Focker sitting there slack-jawed and dumbfounded. That has to count for something.

Best example is when he fights Kamjin on the deck of the Macross, he recognizes the leader and goes after him himself, sparing his wingmates the risk of tangling with him. If Max was truly as hot as you all say he is, then Hikaru would have ordered Max to take him.

Right. I can just see the radio traffic.

Hikaru: Hey Max, you seee the guy in the Glaug?

Max: Yeah, he's pretty good.

Hikaru: That's why I want YOU to go chase him down. He'll just SHOOT me.

Max: Wha? But you're the leader. Doesn't that mean you're BETTER than me?

Hikaru: I know that's what the papers say, but let's face it, I suck. You're some sort of freaking god of the battlefield.

Max: But I'm not... I'm just a raw recruit with no real experience.

Misa: Vermillion leader, quit trying to use your wingmates as shields! Go deal with the problem yourself, you big chicken!

There is a reason that Hikaru was always promoted before Max.

Hikaru was team leader. He got credit for his team's work as well as his own.

And if I recall, Hikaru and Max got promoted at roughly the same time.

And in their conversation after the fact, they acknowledged that neither of them was really due a promotion yet and that only got them because there weren't enough pilots on the ship.

The final battle of SW1 also shows this, with Hikaru being very serious and whatnot.

Hikaru got shot down in that battle. Max didn't.

Enough said.

[Twoducks]

I see Hikaru tends to fight in fighter mode whereas Max is more comfortable in Battroid.

When Max does his "god of war" dance he's usually in Battroid mode (first time he's refered to as an amazing pilot, infiltrating a Zentran ship, most of the fight with Millia).

So maybe Hikaru is a better airplain pilot and Max a better robot pilot. Remember that in DYRL? Hikaru holds pretty well on an unarmed fighter, never using Battroid mode, and Max ends up using a Queadlunn.

Edited May 27, 2005 by Twoducks

[Twoducks]

QUOTE (JB0 @ May 24 2005, 11:07 PM)

QUOTE 

yah the courtship was bit messed up but since it was culture shock its ok.  the knife part I doubt she realy wanted to kill max she was already taken during the arcade battle.

I dunno. She seemed pretty serious about inflicting sharp stabbity wounds upon him.

...

I still hate AnimeFiend for that episode. 

Yeah, I get the felling that Max was sweating through this knife fight, or he seemed under duress, even though it wasn't animated. Or should I say animated right.

Funny thing is that when I was a kid I never noticed how choppy some parts were animated. I just resaw that episode today after who knows how many years and that fight was...

[JB0]

QUOTE (JB0 @ May 24 2005, 11:07 PM)

QUOTE 

yah the courtship was bit messed up but since it was culture shock its ok.  the knife part I doubt she realy wanted to kill max she was already taken during the arcade battle.

I dunno. She seemed pretty serious about inflicting sharp stabbity wounds upon him.

...

I still hate AnimeFiend for that episode. 

Yeah, I get the felling that Max was sweating through this knife fight, or he seemed under duress, even though it wasn't animated. Or should I say animated right.

Funny thing is that when I was a kid I never noticed how choppy some parts were animated. I just resaw that episode today after who knows how many years and that fight was...

Yah. When I was a kid it was "WOW! MOVING PICTURES! Now where's the transforming jets that blow stuff up?"

But now? It's just hideous. I REALLY want to like that episode too, but ithurts to watch.

[akabob]

That makes sense since hikaru/Rick was a pilot from a young age. Max would have just started flying when he got on the ship.

[connor99]

Twoducks Posted on May 26 2005, 05:30 PM

So maybe Hikaru is a better airplain pilot and Max a better robot pilot. Remember that in DYRL? Hikaru holds pretty well on an unarmed fighter, never using Battroid mode, and Max ends up using a Queadlunn. 

I beg to differ on this one and I too, will have to use DYRL? as a referrence. Look back to the MAX 'n MILIA showdown scene in the skies above the alien city ruins. You might recall that when they were battling, MAX was constantly switching from Fighter to Battroid modes and was doing all sorts of maneuvers to attack and avoid volleys of RPGs/Missiles (specially the ones fired from the shoulders of MILIA's Q-Rau Armor!). MAX might be better "robot" pilot, but I don't think that makes him any less than HIKARU when batlling in Fighter mode.

[treatment]

Twoducks Posted on May 26 2005, 05:30 PM

So maybe Hikaru is a better airplain pilot and Max a better robot pilot. Remember that in DYRL? Hikaru holds pretty well on an unarmed fighter, never using Battroid mode, and Max ends up using a Queadlunn. 

I beg to differ on this one and I too, will have to use DYRL? as a referrence. Look back to the MAX 'n MILIA showdown scene in the skies above the alien city ruins. You might recall that when they were battling, MAX was constantly switching from Fighter to Battroid modes and was doing all sorts of maneuvers to attack and avoid volleys of RPGs/Missiles (specially the ones fired from the shoulders of MILIA's Q-Rau Armor!). MAX might be better "robot" pilot, but I don't think that makes him any less than HIKARU when batlling in Fighter mode.

hehehe

I dunno, man.

From DYRL, seems like Max only made kills when he's in Battroid-mode, while Hikaru made kills in all modes (fighter/battroid/gerwalk).

Hikaru also destroyed a Zentran-warship with his 1S, while Max just chased Milia into a Meltran-ship in his 1S.

[eugimon]

Personally, I thought Hikaru was a better leader... he had better situational awareness and kept track of his pilots and overall mission goal.

Max became fixated on the battle and would lose sight of the overall mission...

fer instance..

In the mission where max and his squad was escorting Misa's shuttle.. max allowed himself to get caught up in the dog fights rather than stay with the shuttle and protect it.

In the first battle of DYRL, it's hikaru that realizes the battle was a diversion.

In Max's dog fight with Millia, he peels off to continue to pursue millia, leaving his wingman (Roy) unprotected... in DYRL. once again Max takes off leaving hikaru by himself.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I think max's choice of battroid might have something to do with him just wanting to show off tricks and wanting to look stylish while killing things. eg: getting close to the poor zentradi in DYRL and shooting him right in the face at point blank range. Really, unecessary. Maybe it's to humiliate the pilot or something or to prove to himself he can save ammo? Or perhaps it's an artform. This is the way he expresses himself sort-of-thing by using unpredictable signature attack styles. He did a fighting combo: punch in the mech, block his attack and shoot face. Way harder then just shooting the gun at a safe distance.

If you think about it, milia's style is to get in close, punch things with a fist and shoot as close as possible to do maximum damage too. When you've got enough speed and reflexes and skill to do this in battroid mode (probably the hardest mode to control I would assume) while making it look easy by dodging everything AND being outnumbered, then you've reached a high point.

I think roy mentioned that gerwalk wasn't that hard to get used to, (almost the same as fighter mode) and hikaru mentioned how complex robot mode was (early episode where he is in the 1d in the tv series.)

Max would have just started flying when he got on the ship.

Actually he mentioned to kakizaki what he learned in flight academy or something before showing off his skills. Don't quote me on that though, my memory isn't flawless. So he wouldn't be completely noobish, just fast at learning imo.

Edited May 28, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[JB0]

I think max's choice of battroid might have something to do with him just wanting to show off tricks and wanting to look stylish while killing things. eg: getting close to the poor zentradi in DYRL and shooting him right in the face at point blank range. Really, unecessary. Maybe it's to humiliate the pilot or something or to prove to himself he can save ammo? Or perhaps it's an artform. This is the way he expresses himself sort-of-thing by using unpredictable signature attack styles. He did a fighting combo: punch in the mech, block his attack and shoot face. Way harder then just shooting the gun at a safe distance.

I'd argue it's an artform.

He's young enough to want to show off a bit, and good enough to get away with it.

When you've got enough speed and reflexes and skill to do this in battroid mode (probably the hardest mode to control I would assume) while making it look easy by dodging everything AND being outnumbered, then you've reached a high point.

I think roy mentioned that gerwalk wasn't that hard to get used to, (almost the same as fighter mode) and hikaru mentioned how complex robot mode was (early episode where he is in the 1d in the tv series.)

Roy and Hikaru were speaking specifically from the perspective of a civilian pilot that'd never seen a giant robot before, not in terms of absolute simplicity.

GERWALK being so close to a regular plane meant it would be great for Hikaru, who'd sorta busted his plane mode but had no clue how to drive a robot.

Having said that, I DID get the impression that battroid mode was a more complex control setup, but not MASSIVELY so.

[VF-18S Hornet]

Maybe his parents were part of the VFX project during the reconstruction of the Macross and were killed in the start of the war. He may have had some first hand knowledge of the Valkyries from his parents notes.

Well, Roy taught him the booster climb thing he used in the airshow. (and there's a flashback of roy flying in an old plane with hikaru being left behind)

Um.. Low Viz Lurker I was talking about Max, not Hikaru. Hikaru was the one who leard that booster climb from Roy. I was merely stating that Max may have had parents who were involved in the VFX project, and problay played around in the simulators, to have those maddog skills.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Ah my mistake. Maybe there is a link there with his skill and what his parents were involved with.

I'm still trying to understand what relation Edgar in macross zero has to Claudia in macross. Are they even related?

[Zentrandude]

proly not. maybe in the macross universe his last name is common like the smiths.

[White]

Oh I thought there definately was a relation, just for fun.

As far as Max piloting goes, a point for him is that it is his descendants are all well known good pilots, in both Macross and in Robotech, heh.

[eugimon]

Oh I thought there definately was a relation, just for fun.

As far as Max piloting goes, a point for him is that it is his descendants are all well known good pilots, in both Macross and in Robotech, heh.

not really a point, since we don't know about hikaru's kid(s)... and we don't know if roy had kids... or rather if roy's kids knew they were roy's kids. heh.

[Zentrandude]

Oh I thought there definately was a relation, just for fun.

As far as Max piloting goes, a point for him is that it is his descendants are all well known good pilots, in both Macross and in Robotech, heh.

not really a point, since we don't know about hikaru's kid(s)... and we don't know if roy had kids... or rather if roy's kids knew they were roy's kids. heh.

think it would be realy easy to tell your one of roy' kids being realy tall and blonde hair that a life form all in its own.

[JLYC]

LowViz Lurker:

may i ask what you do for a living? you write the longest and most comprehensive replies in almost every thread...i think they can add up to a mini novel itself. either you write super fast or you're a journalist or something. thanks.

[VF-18S Hornet]

Best example is when he fights Kamjin on the deck of the Macross, he recognizes the leader and goes after him himself, sparing his wingmates the risk of tangling with him. If Max was truly as hot as you all say he is, then Hikaru would have ordered Max to take him.

Right. I can just see the radio traffic.

Hikaru: Hey Max, you seee the guy in the Glaug?

Max: Yeah, he's pretty good.

Hikaru: That's why I want YOU to go chase him down. He'll just SHOOT me.

Max: Wha? But you're the leader. Doesn't that mean you're BETTER than me?

Hikaru: I know that's what the papers say, but let's face it, I suck. You're some sort of freaking god of the battlefield.

Max: But I'm not... I'm just a raw recruit with no real experience.

Misa: Vermillion leader, quit trying to use your wingmates as shields! Go deal with the problem yourself, you big chicken!

LOL!!! that is too funny.