Which CONSOLE!?

[JB0]

HDD required for all games.  Ok, this is actually something we didn't expect. 

As for price...- Price will not be less than 50,000YEN (~$425.00 USD)  at least in Japan.  So at least $425...question is how high could it go with BD, HDMI 1.3 and possibly a 60 GB HDD.

Just remember, the PS and Saturn were both around 800 at Japanese launch.

[Gaijin]

HDD required for all games.  Ok, this is actually something we didn't expect. 

As for price...- Price will not be less than 50,000YEN (~$425.00 USD)  at least in Japan.  So at least $425...question is how high could it go with BD, HDMI 1.3 and possibly a 60 GB HDD.

Just remember, the PS and Saturn were both around 800 at Japanese launch.

380717[/snapback]

My launch Saturn was just under 35,000 yen 2 days after launch in Japan back in '94. I don't recall the PSX launch price but I don't recall it was that much in Japan either.

Edited March 16, 2006 by Gaijin

[JB0]

HDD required for all games.  Ok, this is actually something we didn't expect. 

As for price...- Price will not be less than 50,000YEN (~$425.00 USD)  at least in Japan.  So at least $425...question is how high could it go with BD, HDMI 1.3 and possibly a 60 GB HDD.

Just remember, the PS and Saturn were both around 800 at Japanese launch.

380717[/snapback]

My launch Saturn was just under 35,000 yen 2 days after launch in Japan back in '94. I don't recall the PSX launch price but I don't recall it was that much in Japan either.

380739[/snapback]

Maybe I have bad information.

I don't recall any of the retarded shenanigans that've marked the current generation's launches. Could be wrong.

[Apollo Leader]

HDD required for all games.  Ok, this is actually something we didn't expect. 

As for price...- Price will not be less than 50,000YEN (~$425.00 USD)  at least in Japan.  So at least $425...question is how high could it go with BD, HDMI 1.3 and possibly a 60 GB HDD.

380661[/snapback]

Where did you get the $425 price? I know the main numbers going around has been the alleged $700-$900 manufacturing cost for the system. My guess is that the version with the hard drive will be sold at $499 or higher. I just wonder how big of a hit Sony is willing to take during the PS3's first few years of life to get it out to as big of a market possible?

[Ladic]

so the ps3 having hdmi output, but my tv has only dvi input, am I SoL?

[Coota0]

HDD required for all games.  Ok, this is actually something we didn't expect. 

As for price...- Price will not be less than 50,000YEN (~$425.00 USD)  at least in Japan.  So at least $425...question is how high could it go with BD, HDMI 1.3 and possibly a 60 GB HDD.

380661[/snapback]

Where did you get the $425 price? I know the main numbers going around has been the alleged $700-$900 manufacturing cost for the system. My guess is that the version with the hard drive will be sold at $499 or higher. I just wonder how big of a hit Sony is willing to take during the PS3's first few years of life to get it out to as big of a market possible?

380780[/snapback]

I wouldn't think there would be a version without a hardrive. If every game requires a hardrive, a PS3 without a hardrive would be pretty useless.

[JB0]

HDD required for all games.  Ok, this is actually something we didn't expect. 

As for price...- Price will not be less than 50,000YEN (~$425.00 USD)  at least in Japan.  So at least $425...question is how high could it go with BD, HDMI 1.3 and possibly a 60 GB HDD.

380661[/snapback]

Where did you get the $425 price? I know the main numbers going around has been the alleged $700-$900 manufacturing cost for the system. My guess is that the version with the hard drive will be sold at $499 or higher. I just wonder how big of a hit Sony is willing to take during the PS3's first few years of life to get it out to as big of a market possible?

380780[/snapback]

That 7-900 price tag is a joke. Merill-Lynch's analyst for that one is totally incompetent and should be shot. Especially since htey quoted manufacture price as 900, but all their BS numbers only added up to 8.

Anyways, Sony and MS have both been launching systems with below-cost retail prices, so it won't be anything new either way.

so the ps3 having hdmi output, but my tv has only dvi input, am I SoL?

380795[/snapback]

Not necessarily. There's HDMI-DVI adapters.

[Uxi]

so the ps3 having hdmi output, but my tv has only dvi input, am I SoL?

380795[/snapback]

There are two main types. There is an HDMI-DVI cable with one end each and then there is a small adapter you plug the HDMI into that then plugs into the DVI port.

[Gaijin]

HDD required for all games.  Ok, this is actually something we didn't expect. 

As for price...- Price will not be less than 50,000YEN (~$425.00 USD)  at least in Japan.  So at least $425...question is how high could it go with BD, HDMI 1.3 and possibly a 60 GB HDD.

Just remember, the PS and Saturn were both around 800 at Japanese launch.

380717[/snapback]

My launch Saturn was just under 35,000 yen 2 days after launch in Japan back in '94. I don't recall the PSX launch price but I don't recall it was that much in Japan either.

380739[/snapback]

Maybe I have bad information.

I don't recall any of the retarded shenanigans that've marked the current generation's launches. Could be wrong.

380769[/snapback]

Yeah there was no dealing with all of that back then...the problem was seeing hundreds of gamers in Akihabara lined up the nights before.

HDD required for all games.  Ok, this is actually something we didn't expect. 

As for price...- Price will not be less than 50,000YEN (~$425.00 USD)  at least in Japan.  So at least $425...question is how high could it go with BD, HDMI 1.3 and possibly a 60 GB HDD.

380661[/snapback]

Where did you get the $425 price? I know the main numbers going around has been the alleged $700-$900 manufacturing cost for the system. My guess is that the version with the hard drive will be sold at $499 or higher. I just wonder how big of a hit Sony is willing to take during the PS3's first few years of life to get it out to as big of a market possible?

380780[/snapback]

I can't remember where I saw that one..it was in one of the releases somewhere. 50,000 yen at least in Japan...so roughly $425 US( not won't go higher than...won't go lesser than). The ML report was so far off base, it's laughable...they even got their own math wrong adding the costs of their guess of the components wrong by $100...they said $900, their own math said $800...and a BD ROM drive costs $350 etc...they really have no clue.

so the ps3 having hdmi output, but my tv has only dvi input, am I SoL?

380795[/snapback]

So far, it has HDMI(1.3 to boot) but it also has the familiar Playstation connector that has been around since the PS1...so you can use that if you bought S Video cables for SD or component cables for High Def gaming..the only hang up with that solution is Blu Ray Movie disc playback in High Def...some films will be downrezzed through the analog component depending on the studio.

Sony, Fox, Disney will not down rez discs at least not for many many years until the demand for analog component is no longer as much of an issue....Warner may, Universal and Paramount unknown but probably will (Uni on HD DVD releases).

[Uxi]

IIRC no studio has announced they'll use the ICT to downgrade on analog connections.

Yet.

I really don't expect to see any of this for at least a few years. And by then it will be cracked and as prevalent as Macrovision.

Can't wait to have a silver PS3 next to my X360 on my home entertainment stand under my 60" SXRD. Good times coming!

Hopefully there will be some 360 games that are MUST have by then.

[Gaijin]

The whole thing with Blu-ray is that if it is cracked, the encryption can be updated. That's what BD+ is there for. So any new discs won't be able to be pirated.

[David Hingtgen]

Speaking of connections/TV's, at this point, I'm actually thinking about getting a new CRT TV!

Reasons:

1. My gaming setup is my bedroom, and the TV is on the nightstand. That means it's basically at arms-length. No 40in plasma HDTV's there! I currently have a 20in, and it literally hangs over the edges of the nightstand.

2. A 23in LCD would work, and possibly a 26.

3. But, I dislike the vast majority of LCD screens, and figure it'll be years before LCD is up to the picture quality I want. Seriously, I think *CRT* black isn't black enough, much less LCD. And I find afterimages and ghosting on most CRT's. (Yes, I have one heck of a disciminating eye, I see individual pixels on my monitor as I sit here typing this if I look)

So---I'm leaning towards a new 20in or so CRT, as they are cheap, and my current one doesn't even have S-video. Switching everything to component (including DVD player) should give me improved quality and hold me over for a few more years---by then there'll either be SED, or 20in plasmas, or I'll have a new place with a 50in.

Of course, it is hard to justify a new TV of the same type and size, when the current one's fine. Also I believe that companies currently focus so much of their resources on the new ones, that CRT quality has actually gone down over the years.

[chrono]

Save that nightstand and hang the tv on the wall!

[JB0]

The whole thing with Blu-ray is that if it is cracked, the encryption can be updated. That's what BD+ is there for.  So any new discs won't be able to be pirated.

380829[/snapback]

Not as I understand it.

What I've heard is it works JUST like modern CSS does.

There's X number of decryption keys defined. All manufacturers are issued one. The key has to be on the disk AND player to work.

If a device is found to not comply with the Blu-Ray Disk... group-thingie's rules, they can revoke that company's decryption key. Future disks won't contain that key on them, and thus those disks won't work on offending hardware.

That's acutally how CSS was cracked. They shipped ... I believe it was a player with both sets of keys in the ROM. Once they had keys, it was easier for the hackers to work out the algorythm.

More relvantly, no one's CSS keys were ever revoked. They were THREATENED, but never actualyl revoked.

[Gaijin]

The whole thing with Blu-ray is that if it is cracked, the encryption can be updated. That's what BD+ is there for.  So any new discs won't be able to be pirated.

380829[/snapback]

Not as I understand it.

What I've heard is it works JUST like modern CSS does.

There's X number of decryption keys defined. All manufacturers are issued one. The key has to be on the disk AND player to work.

If a device is found to not comply with the Blu-Ray Disk... group-thingie's rules, they can revoke that company's decryption key. Future disks won't contain that key on them, and thus those disks won't work on offending hardware.

That's acutally how CSS was cracked. They shipped ... I believe it was a player with both sets of keys in the ROM. Once they had keys, it was easier for the hackers to work out the algorythm.

More relvantly, no one's CSS keys were ever revoked. They were THREATENED, but never actualyl revoked.

380852[/snapback]

For AACS schemes and HD DVD yes, what you mentioned. BD+ adds more security for Blu Ray which was what Fox really pushed for and got. And BD+ is implemented in Blu Ray movies in which it adds dynamic encryption to prevent what happened with CSS. Blu-ray also adds a ROM mark on production ROM discs to prevent mass piracy.

Yes, no one had revocation during the DVD era...this time around, the stakes are a little higher.

Edited March 16, 2006 by Gaijin

[JB0]

Speaking of connections/TV's, at this point, I'm actually thinking about getting a new CRT TV! 

...

3.  But, I dislike the vast majority of LCD screens, and figure it'll be years before LCD is up to the picture quality I want.  Seriously, I think *CRT* black isn't black enough, much less LCD.  And I find afterimages and ghosting on most CRT's.  (Yes, I have one heck of a disciminating eye, I see individual pixels on my monitor as I sit here typing this if I look) 

Videophile in training, are we?

LCoS sets are supposed to be nearly as good as CRT, for what it's worth.

So---I'm leaning towards a new 20in or so CRT, as they are cheap, and my current one doesn't even have S-video.  Switching everything to component (including DVD player) should give me improved quality and hold me over for a few more years---by then there'll either be SED, or 20in plasmas, or I'll have a new place with a 50in.   

Get a set that AT LEAST supports progressive scan.

Personally, I'd prod you to upgrading the nightstand and getting a 30-ish" HD set.

Of course, it is hard to justify a new TV of the same type and size, when the current one's fine.  Also I believe that companies currently focus so much of their resources on the new ones, that CRT quality has actually gone down over the years.

380831[/snapback]

Well, you can adjust it to bring it back in-line, for the most part.

But tubes are indeed becoming a non-option. There's a few high-end tube sets, but they're dying fast.

[Uxi]

LCoS sets are supposed to be nearly as good as CRT, for what it's worth. 

I'd put my SXRD (Sony's LCOS) against any CRT out there. I was hardcore CRT for years and swore I'd never go rear projection...

Plasma might be vivid and have a small footprint, but the power consumption, crushed blacks were complemented by loud fans and enormous power consumption to go with the high price.

SED? Delayed yet again. I really wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to be vaporware...

[Gaijin]

Some more info appears:

All games require HDD

Only one SKU for PS3 (unless Sony wants people to buy a console unable to play games without an add on...that would be extreme suicide) so looks like HDD might be standard after all.

HDD is standard laptop 2.5" SATA type

Developers were told to assume all PS3's will have the HDD

Final PS3 specs got a RAM upgrade...whether more or faster RAM is unkknown.

Kutaragi said he feels the Blu Ray player in PS3 will be the best quality when it is launched( take that one with a very large grain of salt)

All regions to launch before Thanksgiving in the US

E3 final price reveal... $450 US my guess with BD, HDD, and demo disc with Blu Ray movie samples or possibly a movie pack in like the Spiderman 2 UMD at launch

[Gaijin]

LCoS sets are supposed to be nearly as good as CRT, for what it's worth. 

I'd put my SXRD (Sony's LCOS) against any CRT out there. I was hardcore CRT for years and swore I'd never go rear projection...

Plasma might be vivid and have a small footprint, but the power consumption, crushed blacks were complemented by loud fans and enormous power consumption to go with the high price.

SED? Delayed yet again. I really wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to be vaporware...

380884[/snapback]

Toshiba should concentrate on SED...but pride won't go away since they want the high def DVD market and DVD Forum to continue in their favor. This could have ended months ago if MS hadn't stepped in. Now we have Toshiba spreading resources thin (a whopping 10,000 HD DVD players at launch window) and though now not exactly dead, is kinda just throwing away millions in the next gen battle for movies when they are sitting on what could actually replace most flat panel TV's today. Heck, they're using the Cell in their TV's soon anyways.

[Black Valkyrie]

From all of this that still makes NR console the last one to be released late Nov.

Edited March 16, 2006 by Black Valkyrie

[chrono]

I kinda buy the thankgiving release date, because of it's pre-christmas date. It places them really well to sell for 2 full months instead of less then 1 month.

We'll KNOW at E3 fer sure.

[JB0]

LCoS sets are supposed to be nearly as good as CRT, for what it's worth. 

I'd put my SXRD (Sony's LCOS) against any CRT out there. I was hardcore CRT for years and swore I'd never go rear projection...

I use whatever I can scrounge up. The BEST TV I have access to is a 32" NTSC tube. Not even progressive scan.

Having helped put it in, I KNOW why tube TVs are dying. Thing weighs a QBerting ton.

I've got an AVphile buddy that uses an SXRD set. Also uses an XBR960, which is Sony's high-end tube HDTV. He says the XBR is the best set in his house, but the SXRD is close(as well as bigger and lighter).

XBR960's also been discontinued. It's replacement can't even display 1080 lines.

Basically, once the 960 stock is cleared out, there won't be any more large tube HDTVs.

They're gradually being squeezed out. Soon it'll only be the bargin-bin. Then... nothing.

[Uxi]

Having helped put it in, I KNOW why tube TVs are dying. Thing weighs a QBerting ton.

Seriously. My 34" CRT HDTV is over 200 pounds. My 60" SXRD is 113. Though it looms over everything else in the TV room, it's footprint is arguably the same, if not less (since the previous space above and immediately around was "wasted" anyway).

The absolute best benefit of SXRD/LCOS over CRT... Zero burn-in concerns. Game with abandon. I lusted over the 70" Qualia 006 (which used an older generation of SXRD chip and lacked the advanced IRIS of the new XBR SXRD's), but $13k was just a bit out of my league for a TV. There's rumors of a 70" XBR2 this year... but the biggest rumor was the 80".

I can't wait to have a PS3 with Blu-Ray next to my 360. I actually prefer to watch a 1080i broadcast over Charter HD than most of my DVD's, so HD play back is highly desired and PS3 should tide me over until the format war is over (I'm avoiding a commit at this stage, but so far it looks to me like Blu-Ray should win).

Edited March 17, 2006 by Uxi

[JB0]

The absolute best benefit of SXRD/LCOS over CRT...  Zero burn-in concerns.  Game with abandon. 

Now, be fair. Outside of projectors, CRT burn-in hasn't been a real concern since the Atari days.

Yes, it happens in business settings. But they leave the same image up for YEARS.

It happens in projectors too. But that's because the brightness is cranked WAY the heck up to get a strong enough image to project. CRTs are HORRIBLE projection devices.

[David Hingtgen]

While the SXRD sets do look great in store from what I've seen, I have read about "green spots" when the set first comes on. Also, the minimum size/cost on those is huge.

I was at BestBuy today (had a gift card), and noticed several CRT HDTV's I hadn't seen before. Samsung and Toshiba, 26in I think, both $550. The Samsung was a slimline, box said 72 pounds.

Wall mount is not really an option---my bedroom is LINED with shelves to hold all my airplane books and airplane models. The ONLY place for a TV is near my bed. I could wall-mount a small LCD beyond the foot of the bed, but at that point it'd be like a 23in TV, 10 feet away.

Getting a new stand is certainly an option, there's no real reason to keep the current one other than it's pefectly positioned for how I play. (it's on a turntable so I can move it a few degrees left/right for where I'm sitting on the bed)

So---while $200 to 300 for a new standard TV with component would offer only minimal improvements, 550 would get me a slim 4:3 CRT HDTV with HDMI. No 720p etc, but would have awesome black/response/viewing angle. Also, can't CRT's deal easily with almost any resolution? Basically I think it could be a nice place-holder until plasma or LCD or something becomes nicer and more affordable. $1000 is too much at this point, so all the nice 23-26in LCD's are out of my range.

My questions for the videophiles here----any comments on the $500-600 CRT HDTV's out there now? I believe the Toshiba was the 26H85 or something along those lines. (Surprisingly SEARS had a bunch of CRT HDTV's this Xmas, but they were mostly 30 to 36in---too big and heavy and expensive for a bedside)

Somewhat related question---people often go on about so many 23-26in LCD's being native 720p and thus perfect for X360's (and many demo 360's are hooked up to that)---but I see so many that are actually 768 pixels, advertised as native 720. How does that work?

PS---I measured my actual "eyeball to screen" distance for my most common game-playing/dvd-watching position. Right about 48 inches. That's with the current stand and location. I could move the TV another foot back if needed, though I'd much rather keep it where it is. (All the cables, from every game/stereo/dvd runs through that area, and many systems have maxed out their power cable length and can't really be moved around much) Maybe if I got a stand that I could run the cables THROUGH instead of around... (Though that'd look really ugly, and I already have an "ugly" cable mess)

[JB0]

Also, can't CRT's deal easily with almost any resolution? 

Beyond a certain level, no.

But up to their maximum, they do light-years better than the other options.

Somewhat related question---people often go on about so many 23-26in LCD's being native 720p and thus perfect for X360's (and many demo 360's are hooked up to that)---but I see so many that are actually 768 pixels, advertised as native 720.  How does that work? 

I'd assume by slight letter-boxing.

Also possible that they cover the edges of the panel with the frame.

...

Or just screw everyone by upsampling it, so that it provides a perfect image at no DTV resolution.

[JB0]

The whole thing with Blu-ray is that if it is cracked, the encryption can be updated. That's what BD+ is there for.  So any new discs won't be able to be pirated.

380829[/snapback]

Not as I understand it.

What I've heard is it works JUST like modern CSS does.

There's X number of decryption keys defined. All manufacturers are issued one. The key has to be on the disk AND player to work.

If a device is found to not comply with the Blu-Ray Disk... group-thingie's rules, they can revoke that company's decryption key. Future disks won't contain that key on them, and thus those disks won't work on offending hardware.

That's acutally how CSS was cracked. They shipped ... I believe it was a player with both sets of keys in the ROM. Once they had keys, it was easier for the hackers to work out the algorythm.

More relvantly, no one's CSS keys were ever revoked. They were THREATENED, but never actualyl revoked.

380852[/snapback]

For AACS schemes and HD DVD yes, what you mentioned. BD+ adds more security for Blu Ray which was what Fox really pushed for and got. And BD+ is implemented in Blu Ray movies in which it adds dynamic encryption to prevent what happened with CSS. Blu-ray also adds a ROM mark on production ROM discs to prevent mass piracy.

Yes, no one had revocation during the DVD era...this time around, the stakes are a little higher.

380855[/snapback]

Ah.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but NONE of the things being done are going to actually slow down piracy. Encrypting the data doesn't do jack squat if someone just does a 1:1 copy of the disk.

The copy protection on the PS1, Saturn, PS2, GC, and XBox worked because it was a non-standard use of the format(and in some cases a whole new format, sharing only the media layer with conventional DVD-ROMs). So they did things that most copier software wasn't equipped to recognize and most burners weren't equipped to reproduce. The same thing goes for copy-protected audioCDs(which also breaks them in some actual CD players).

When you make it part of a comprehensive standard like BluRay and DVD, it ceases to affect piracy, regardless of whether the disk image is stamped onto another disk and sold or passed around "teh intarweb" via BitTorrent.

The MPAA isn't actually TRYING to stop piracy. They're trying to place limits on what law-abiding consumers can use their movies for.

Cracking CSS didn't matter to pirates. They could, and did, pirate DVDs before the encryption was cracked.

It mattered to people that wanted to use the content of their own DVDs. Watching the movies in Linux, editing the video for AMVs, fast-forwarding through the corporate logos before the actual program, stuff like that. Things that were, and still are, legal under US copyright law.

Of course, the DMCA adds kinks into things as it makes it illegal to break encryption, even for "fair use."

[Gaijin]

Well, I never said it would. My point was that while Blu-ray uses AACS protection, it also adds something which HD DVD does not share. Truthfully, how many people are renting DVD's and copying them? Quite a bit. Much more than a few years ago. DVD sales are slowing and rentals are rising. With CSS, once that was cracked..that was it..any DVD can be copied...with BD+, it's more re-assurance for the studios so that if it is cracked, they just dial up a new scheme so future releases would not be privy to the exact same defeated code at least until it gets cracked again. Not so with DVD and CSS. This is what the studios want. They know it will be cracked. BD+ in the BD specs gives those studio execs a little more piece of mind. That is all. Well, it also opens the door to them interfering with MMC but that's another topic that will be OT.

Maybe I should not have used the word pirated because you went off on a tangent about it.

Perhaps I should have used, "the dumb bloke who copies DVD's he rents from netflix won't be able to do it every single time because he bought one program that broke AACS and the first wave of BD+ and he'll need to wait until the next one is broken.

Edited March 17, 2006 by Gaijin

[Gaijin]

Looks like ML's analyst now says their estimate is $630 for cost of PS3. I swear these people just have no clue...first it was $900 but $800 if you added their own costs estimates up, and a couple weeks later he's saying $630. Same analyst that came out with the earlier this month report changes his estimate quite a bit.

Also they estimate 44,800 yen retail....sounding familiar. Oh No! Maybe they actually did some research or read the internal memos!!

Edited March 18, 2006 by Gaijin

[JB0]

Well, I never said it would. My point was that while Blu-ray uses AACS protection, it also adds something which HD DVD does not share.  Truthfully, how many people are renting DVD's and copying them?  Quite a bit. Much more than a few years ago.  DVD sales are slowing and rentals are rising.  With CSS, once that was cracked..that was it..any DVD can be copied...

CSS never prevented disk copying. A complete disk image contained all the CSS data, and when you burned the disk image, the decryption keys were intact.

It's sort of like password-protecting your computer, then writing the password on the monitor so you don't forget it.

The closest DVD had to an actual copy-protection mechanism was dual-layer(unless we count the short-lived, ill-concieved Divx market).

Once dual-layer writers came down in price, that was dead.

with BD+, it's more re-assurance for the studios so that if it is cracked, they just dial up a new scheme so future releases would not be privy to the exact same defeated code at least until it gets cracked again.  Not so with DVD and CSS. This is what the studios want.  They know it will be cracked.  BD+ in the BD specs gives those studio execs a little more piece of mind.  That is all. 

But it doesn't matter. If you copy the disk, you copy all of it. Your copies are identical to the original source disk.

Maybe I should not have used the word pirated because you went off on a tangent about it.

 

Perhaps I should have used, "the dumb bloke who copies DVD's he rents from netflix won't be able to do it every single time because he bought one program that broke AACS and the first wave of BD+ and he'll need to wait until the next one is broken.

As I said, that doesn't matter.

The only people it affects are the ones doing something BESIDES just copying the disk.

[Gaijin]

Well, I never said it would. My point was that while Blu-ray uses AACS protection, it also adds something which HD DVD does not share.  Truthfully, how many people are renting DVD's and copying them?  Quite a bit. Much more than a few years ago.  DVD sales are slowing and rentals are rising.  With CSS, once that was cracked..that was it..any DVD can be copied...

CSS never prevented disk copying. A complete disk image contained all the CSS data, and when you burned the disk image, the decryption keys were intact.

It's sort of like password-protecting your computer, then writing the password on the monitor so you don't forget it.

The closest DVD had to an actual copy-protection mechanism was dual-layer(unless we count the short-lived, ill-concieved Divx market).

Once dual-layer writers came down in price, that was dead.

with BD+, it's more re-assurance for the studios so that if it is cracked, they just dial up a new scheme so future releases would not be privy to the exact same defeated code at least until it gets cracked again.  Not so with DVD and CSS. This is what the studios want.  They know it will be cracked.  BD+ in the BD specs gives those studio execs a little more piece of mind.  That is all. 

But it doesn't matter. If you copy the disk, you copy all of it. Your copies are identical to the original source disk.

Maybe I should not have used the word pirated because you went off on a tangent about it.

 

Perhaps I should have used, "the dumb bloke who copies DVD's he rents from netflix won't be able to do it every single time because he bought one program that broke AACS and the first wave of BD+ and he'll need to wait until the next one is broken.

As I said, that doesn't matter.

The only people it affects are the ones doing something BESIDES just copying the disk.

381780[/snapback]

It matters this time because you can't make an exact disk image with production movie BD-ROM's anymore. The disk will be exact but with an additional surprise!

Most people who copy DVD's do not use dual layer writers and media...they do not copy the whole disc iamge...they take the movie portion. Yes, again you are trying to sound correct in which you are but that has nothing to do with why these steps are being implemented. The ones who copy the entire disc are also just as wrong ( very few people make an honest "back up copy" and the ones that spout that's what they do and that it's their right to take clips and such are always the ones we raid and find hundreds of illegal copies with nary an original in sight but netflix rental envelopes everywhere).

You're saying basically why bother with any type of protection because it harms the legal right of the user...that's why this time around there's MMC (which I doubt will work like they expect).

Again, perhaps my wording is in-correct for you. I don't mean exact disc image copies..I mean the average person that steals them from rentals. The dropped sales we've trace back to not mass copied discs (which the ROM mark and BD+ prevents in Blu-ray and I cannot say how you won't be able to make a disk image that will now no longer be exactly like the original), but to the people buying programs to strip the menus, extras, compress the discs onto single layer etc and overide CSS whenever it may intrude. That is what I meant when I say copy.

Again, it is what studios wanted...not saying it's the correct solution. I'm telling you what they wanted and did about it...you're telling me why it won't work...you don't have to...they were told what it would and would not do...it was acceptable to them.

You'e stretching exact words out of the context I mean and maybe I should be presenting you with reports instead but since this is an anime board I'd prefer not to.

CSS cracked meant any and all DVD-ROM was broken Open to anything. BD+ is upgradeable. If cracked, can be simply changed so no more ripping of discs or using a program that stripped a broken BD+ code like the multitude of programs that do CSS.

AACS works like you mentioned for the most part.

Disk image copying from a BD ROM will net you a surprise and without going into details, it is not the same this time around. Again though, if it's a managed copy (which both HD DVD and BD will support though I'm doubting the first releases will show up with it) then it is marked as such as well and should make people who legally want a back up, clips, or streaming to their media center or portable happy.

Edited March 19, 2006 by Gaijin

[JB0]

It matters this time because you can't make an exact disk image with production movie BD-ROM's anymore.  The disk will be exact but with an additional surprise!

There's no additional surprise.

The ONLY way to kill a copied disk is to kill ALL DISKS using a given encryption scheme.

Encryption doesn't stop copying. Never has.

Most people who copy DVD's do not use dual layer writers and media...they do not copy the whole disc iamge...they take the movie portion.  Yes, again you are trying to sound correct in which you are but that has nothing to do with why these steps are being implemented.

Actually, it does.

The MPAA has admitted IN COURT that CSS was never a piracy deterrent.

I REALLY don't see a diffrence in BluRay.

And the movie portion of a DVD is 99.9% of the disk. If you can't extract the MPEG, there's no real reason to not just spread the entire image.

The ones who copy the entire disc are also just as wrong ( very few people make an honest "back up copy" and the ones that spout that's what they do and that it's their right to take clips and such are always the ones we raid and find hundreds of illegal copies with nary an original in sight but netflix rental envelopes everywhere).

I'm not arguing that almost no one makes backup copies. But CSS WAS NEVER INTENDED TO STOP COPYING.

And I DO argue the point that the people that talk about fair use are all pirates.

You're saying basically why bother with any type of protection because it harms the legal right of the user...that's why this time around there's MMC (which I doubt will work like they expect). 

MMC still restricts what the disk owner can do. The copy you get is still locked, encrypted, and restrictive.

Again, perhaps my wording is in-correct for you.  I don't mean exact disc image copies..I mean the average person that steals them from rentals.  The dropped sales we've trace back to not mass copied discs (which the ROM mark and BD+ prevents in Blu-ray and I cannot say how you won't be able to make a disk image that will now no longer be exactly like the original), but to the people buying programs to strip the menus, extras, compress the discs onto single layer etc and overide CSS whenever it may intrude.  That is what I meant when I say copy. 

Okay, I see what you're saying now.

CSS SHOULD interfere with that form of copying, as there's no way to re-encode the video if you can't decrypt it first. Stripping the menus and extras is easy enough, and I THINK all the audio tracks are in independent files, but there's no way to re-encode the video without decrypting it.

Unfortunately, no consideration is made for the legitimate reasons to decrypt the files.

The BD "ROM mark" is along the lines of a "copy-protect bit."

I don't see how that's really relevant to anything. They're claiming that drives won't "let" you copy a disk with the watermark, but it'll be hard to actually stop it without impacting the function of the drive.

BD+ DOESN'T prevent copying.

All it means is that if BluRay's encryption schemes are cracked(which don't affect straight copying) that they can release disks with a new encryption scheme that has to be cracked again. The only way it would stop copying is if when it was updated it disabled all disks using the old encryption scheme, which is comercially unfeasable for obvious reasons.

Again, it is what studios wanted...not saying it's the correct solution. I'm telling you what they wanted and did about it...you're telling me why it won't work...you don't have to...they were told what it would and would not do...it was acceptable to them.

Well, I'm mainly just pointing out the studio BS.

Explaining why it won't work for the stated task is just a side-effect.

[Gaijin]

Oy.

I know what BD+ is...I believe you were the one that said Blu-Ray works exactly like CSS which is true with AACS but adds things in the form of the ROM mark and BD+.

I think you're taking the whole copy definition a lil too close to heart. We do know what is going into BD-ROM's btw.

[Gaijin]

The GDC sheds some light on PS3 (realtime gameplay footage!):

Rollout in early November 2006 in Japan, the US, Europe, and even Australia. (Hmmm...I dunno)

PS3 will be the highest production product ever put out by Sony. Expect to see them by the boatloads at launch (again though, I dunno about that)

Wireless networking and ethernet integrated

Final controller design to be shown at E3 '06

PS3 game software will be 'region free'...import those Japanese games with no mods to the system. Multiple soundtracks (Japanese, english, etc. expected to become more the norm in PS3 games as release dates between countries should shrink).

All PS3's will support every display standard including PAL and NTSC along with ATSC/HD standards.

Full backwards compatible with PS1 and PS2 (old news but now absolutely confirmed..no half ass 360 backwards compat).

PS Network Hub online similar to Live but free with gameplay features (vague here)

Games can be downloaded to and run from HDD (unsure if this means what many of you are thinking)

Final Dev kits go out in June

Sony will launch an e-Distribution intitiative, which is to attract developers and programmers interested in innovative games, who will then be contacted by Sony. Games created through this will be distributed online for download.

PS network tests in July..expected to be "ready to go" by September

Warhawk, Heavenly Sword, I-8 (name changed to Resistance), Motorstorm, a singing game, and Ratchet and Clank were shown and in realtime demos.

There were more tech demos including a new duck one and one similar to the gas station one at E3 this time with a car that was torn to pieces by gunfire.

Edited March 23, 2006 by Gaijin

[Wes]

PS3 game software will be 'region free'...import those Japanese games with no mods to the system.

about time