Which CONSOLE!?

[mikeszekely]

50,000? I don't think so. Unless you meant 50,000,000, because I doubt even the most loyal Sony fan boy bought 2000 consoles apiece.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry, it was late when I typed that, and I left out a few zeroes. The point I was trying to make is that if you halve the number of PS2 consoles sold, it's still number one, but realistically closer to the 20,000,000 or so units of Xboxes and Gamecubes out there.

And the stories of everyone on their 3rd and 4th system are far the exception rather than the norm.

I don't deny that. But stories of people on their first are also not the norm. That's why I'm estimating two per person.

This is just another "video game store" employee myth.

Myth? How about some facts from this video game store employee. Everyday I will get at least one phone call asking me if we repair PS2s. 90% of the PS2s I sell are replacements for ones that have died.

You might have seen a lot of defective PS2's but just because you may have, I really doubt your reasoning and numbers.

I find it hard to believe that only the Gamestops in my district have issues with bad PS2s.

Are you saying one in two PS2's are faulty?

No. I'm saying that the failure rate of the pre-slimline PS2s is much, much higher than that. I'm saying that Sony suffered a class-action lawsuit because something like three out of four, maybe even four out of five of the older style PS2s fail.

As far as the slimlines go, the entire V12 run suffered from inadequate ventilation when laying horizontally. The V13 and V14 may turn out to be more reliable. Time will tell.

[Duke Togo]

That's crap. 100+ million units sold, and half of them failed? Even a third of them? A quarter? That would make national news.

And the best part is, you don't have any numbers to back any of that up. I'll say it again, that's crap. As I said before, take check your fanboy-ism at the door, please.

[yellowlightman]

And the best part is, you don't have any numbers to back any of that up. I'll say it again, that's crap. As I said before, take check your fanboy-ism at the door, please.

372529[/snapback]

Togo, stop throwing around the fanboyism argument when you've admitted you own nothing but a PS2. If there's a fanboy around here, it's you.

[Duke Togo]

Togo, stop throwing around the fanboyism argument when you've admitted you own nothing but a PS2. If there's a fanboy around here, it's you.

372537[/snapback]

I've bought one game on the PS2 in the past year: Dragon Quest VIII. Before that was Ace Combat 5, which was sometime last spring. I don't game much anymore, but when I do, its almost always on the PC. Hell, I build my own systems.

So ya say, Duke, what games have you played in the last year? Knights of the Old Republic, The Sith Lords, Fable: The Lost Chapters, and 2 months spent in WoW last fall. Oh, and Dragon Quest VIII as of 2 weeks ago (which is the first game I have played since November). I do also happen to have Civilization IV, but haven't played it much at all.

I stick with Sony for 3 reasons: Grand Theft Auto, Final Fantasy, and Metal Gear Solid. To be quite honest, I miss the Mario games, Metroid, and Zelda. I like games, not consoles. Find me the console with the games I like, and they have my purchase.

Edited February 22, 2006 by Duke Togo

[chrono]

Yeah having FF on the sony went along way towards my buying the first the backwards ability of the second was the largest reason I got it.

Anyways I wonder what Halo 3 will look like and how long they are going to hold it for until they get their movie done...

[JB0]

That's crap. 100+ million units sold, and half of them failed? Even a third of them? A quarter? That would make national news.

Sadly, no.

Video games only make news when coupled with violence or half-assed launches(which I'm pretty sure are only covered in anticipation of violence).

Particularly as the systems weren't bad out of the box, but just wore out very fast. "Disk Read Error" is almost as well-known a phrase as "blow on the cart."

As Mike said, Sony lost a lawsuit over it. The settlement only covered select models, however(SCPH-30001 through 50010. Surprisingly, the original 10001 isn't there).

[mikeszekely]

As I said before, take check your fanboy-ism at the door, please.

I just love how, everytime I say anything even remotely against Sony, I'm labeled a fanboy.

A quick rundown of my collection? As of Tuesday, 2-21-06

Console - # of games owned

PlayStation 2 - 161

Dreamcast - 12

PC - 25

PSone - 35

Gamecube - 1

GBA - 25

Xbox - 21

Xbox 360 - 11

PSP - 4

Nintendo DS - 5

(I sold off all my old NES, SNES, and N64 stuff. Actually, I'd sold off my Dreamcast, and I've only recently been re-collecting it).

By the numbers, a lot of people might think I am a fanboy... FOR Sony. Simple fact is, I'm just a gamer, with no particular brand alleigance (well, maybe Capcom). I tend to collect systems, and buy the games that interest me reguardless of platform. And the fact that I own so many more PS2 games than anything else speaks the simple truth that no one can really deny... the PS2 has the most games.

And it is the sheer volume of games that I want or have wanted to play that prompted me to buy a second PlayStation 2 why my launch-day unit stopped reading CD-ROMs.

You're right, I don't have any numbers. I suspect that accurate numbers on just how many PS2s have gone bad would be difficult to obtain. But frankly, I don't see any real need to convice either you or Gaijin. I know what I see, and as I said before, I find it hard to believe that the problem is confined to my district. And because of what I see, I am of the opinion that the PS2 either suffered from a design defect, or was simply a shoddy product, and that customers buying replacements has greatly contributed to the PS2's incredible sales lead over its competitors. (I'm not the only one, either... Shinji Mikami of Resident Evil fame had some infamous things to say about the matter a few years back).

That's not going to stop me from picking up MS Saga for it tomorrow, of course.

[Apollo Leader]

Mike, looking at your list, it looks like you have a ways to go before you equal the collection of games and systems I used to have. I think my total collection now is only about 128 or so games for the SNES (21), PS1 (27), PS2 (24), Saturn (33 - funny that my Saturn has the most games and about 2/3 of them are imports!), Dreamcast (15), and Xbox 360 (4 - 360 games and 4 Xbox games).

In my case, my PS2 has worked since launch day October 2000. I have put many hours of my life into that thing and it has stood the test of time. In late 2003, I personally took it apart to give it one of those flip doors so I could play imports. My first PS1 on the other hand (got int 9/9/95) started going goofy after about 6 months...

[JB0]

I really should count my games again.

I know my 2600/VCS is in the lead, with over a hundred carts and roughly 60 unique games. A lot of it was bulk aquisitions, hence why I have 4 and 5 copies of some games.

Think my PS1 is first runner up. Something like 40 games.

It's really not a very balanced collection.

I plummet all the way down to one for XBox games(Panzer Dragoon. Don't have an XBox, or the #'d be higher).

As far as completion goes... Virtual Boy is by far the highest percentage, at a whopping 86% of US-released games and 55% of all games(not counting regional variations). mazing how far 12 games goes when the entire system only has 14 US titles and 22 games total.

[Gaijin]

Yeah, that's what I meant.  Sorry, it was late when I typed that, and I left out a few zeroes.    The point I was trying to make is that if you halve the number of PS2 consoles sold, it's still number one, but realistically closer to the 20,000,000 or so units of Xboxes and Gamecubes out there.

Even 50 million owners is more than double 20 million. 30 million extra consoles isn't exactly close.

I don't deny that.  But stories of people on their first are also not the norm.  That's why I'm estimating two per person.

50 million people bought 2? Think about that for a sec. I understand your reasoning but it's still way off.

Myth?  How about some facts from this video game store employee.  Everyday I will get at least one phone call asking me if we repair PS2s.  90% of the PS2s I sell are replacements for ones that have died. 

Yes, it's still a myth. PS2's have a high number of defects...in relation to the number sold. Even if there were only 50 million of them out there, 3-5 percent is still 1.5-3 million defects.

You might have seen a lot of defective PS2's but just because you may have, I really doubt your reasoning and numbers.

I find it hard to believe that only the Gamestops in my district have issues with bad PS2s. 

I'm sure they have...just not 50 million of them...not even 40, 30, 25, or 20 million. Even if Gamestop alone found 15 million defects, then it breaks down to what...like...almost 9000 defects per Gamestop store?

No.  I'm saying that the failure rate of the pre-slimline PS2s is much, much higher than that.  I'm saying that Sony suffered a class-action lawsuit because something like three out of four, maybe even four out of five of the older style PS2s fail. 

If you know about the class action lawsuit, then you must know the details regarding it. Why are you adding in stuff?

Again, I understand your reasoning..but the numbers are just way off. You are correct in most regards otherwise. I just don't think you can justify those kinds of numbers, class action lawsuits and all. And, the original PSX suffered a much higher defect rate than the PS2, but most young people tend to equate the things fresh in their minds and apply it to such. Another example is Sony promised us Toy Story level graphics with the PS2. They promised the world, but that Toy Story quote was from Bill Gates reagrding the original Xbox. But it forever exists in the minds of today's young gamers as a broken Sony promise.

Edited February 22, 2006 by Gaijin

[JB0]

Another example is Sony promised us Toy Story level graphics with the PS2.  They promised the world, but that Toy Story quote was from Bill Gates reagrding the original Xbox.  But it forever exists in the minds of today's young gamers as a broken Sony promise.

Sony had their own stuff.

They promised real-time graphics equivalent to FF7's FMV in 1st-gen software. In fact, they had a demontration of it running at E3, allegedly on real PS2 hardare(as things turned out, it ... wasn't.). We're not there NOW.

Regardless of who said what quote, Sony lies. There's actual examples on the PS1, PS2, and even the PS3.

[mikeszekely]

Even 50 million owners is more than double 20 million. 30 million extra consoles isn't exactly close.

20 million is a lot closer to 50 million than 100 million.

50 million people bought 2? Think about that for a sec. I understand your reasoning but it's still way off.

I doubt that I am. Again, sure, some people might still be on their first. They are not the norm, and counter the people who have bought more than two. And I'll tell you right now, I don't personally know anyone on their first. Most of the people I know are on their second. But one of my friends is unlucky enough to be on his fourth.

I'm sure they have...just not 50 million of them...not even 40, 30, 25, or 20 million. Even if Gamestop alone found 15 million defects, then it breaks down to what...like...almost 9000 defects per Gamestop store?

A store doesn't actually have to deal with a defective return. The majority of the problematic PS2s go bad well after the warranty and any return policies have expired. This is why I said it would be hard to get accurate data. How many people who, upon the death of their PS2 say, two years after they bought it, simply throw it in the trash and buy a new one? It's about what goes out, not what comes back. We already know that, worldwide, 100 million units have gone out. When the second

-most common call (after "Do you have any Xbox 360s?") is "Do you fix PS2s?", it's not hard to imagine that half of them were bought by people replacing failed units.

For the record, we do get the occasional "Do you fix Xboxes?", but I've never head anyone ask if we fix Gamecubes.

It's irrelevant. We're all working from personal experience. You're on what, your first? Second? You've heard enough about it to know it happens, but to your experience, what I'm saying strikes you as outlandish. I can't convince you that the problem is more epidemic than you think. But I deal with what I deal with. Maybe I just see the worst of it, but I do believe that the problem was less shoddy manufacturing and more a design defect.

Mike, looking at your list, it looks like you have a ways to go before you equal the collection of games and systems I used to have. biggrin.gif

But bear in mind that that's what I currently have. If I get to count all the stuff I used to have, I don't think my PS2, Xbox, or 360 collections would change much, as I haven't really gotten rid of any of those, but I sold off all but one Cube game, half my PSP and DS collections, almost my entire Dreamcast collection, then my entire N64, SNES, NES, and pre-Advance Gameboy collections. And I could go back further... I had a Magnavox Odyssey, a Commodore 64, and an Atari 800XL. I just have no idea whatever became of those.

[F360°]

ok,,instead of assuming the number of defective system there's another point that should be noted.

The simple fact that when the system breaks due to whatever reason, the owner is thinking about getting ANOTHER one or FIXING it means only one thing. The Owner like the system or the games for that system, or for whatever the heck reason.

This alone equal sucess to me

Also don't forget because so many people have a PS2 even if the same defect rate is the same as the Xbox , the PS2 defect numbers will be greatly larger than the xbox. also there's lots of moding of the PS2 too, in those you know a percentage of them noobies will kill their system doing it.

[Gaijin]

It's irrelevant.  We're all working from personal experience.  You're on what, your first?  Second?  You've heard enough about it to know it happens, but to your experience, what I'm saying strikes you as outlandish.  I can't convince you that the problem is more epidemic than you think.  But I deal with what I deal with.  Maybe I just see the worst of it, but I do believe that the problem was less shoddy manufacturing and more a design defect.

My launch consoles have no bearing on the numbers (Though they all work flawlessly still), and what you say about the problem isn't outlandish..but the numbers are. 50 million is a LOT. 50 percent defective? I am pretty certain that we would have been called for that one.

And yes, you probably have seen the worst of it...I worked in the industry many years ago (and I have some friendly ties still to a few small publishers as well as 2 big names which is why you see me fairly vocal on the BD/HD DVD side of things in this next gen console race..I wish I could really delve more because it's far more interesting a read than what we are debating), and no offense but, the reports from retail employees are generally so one sided and way off, it's hard for me to take anything with any stride. I also worked video game retail as well, many many many years ago. If I used your reasoning, then believe me, I could "prove" nearly every console had a 1 in 3 defect rate based upon people calling to ask if we fixed NES' or was buying another one to replace one. Again, your little part of the pie does not equal the world and you're basing your personal experience to guess insane worldwide numbers. But that is typical with this generation.

There were many problems with faulty PS2's. There are many many many faulty PS2's. There were not however 50 million of them. Nor 40, nor 30, nor 20, nor 15, nor 10. 3-5 more likely and maybe even as high as six.

But hey, you know what you know.

Edited February 22, 2006 by Gaijin

[Radd]

Nobody is arguing against the fact that Sony is successful, just that their hardware tends to have an abnormally high rate of failure. My own personal experience is similar to Mike's. Everyone I know who owns a PS2, and almost everyone I know owns one, is on either their second or third. I don't think I know anyone unlucky enough to be on their fourth, though.

[yellowlightman]

Also don't forget because so many people have a PS2 even if the same defect rate is the same as the Xbox , the PS2 defect numbers will be greatly larger than the xbox.  also there's lots of moding of the PS2 too, in those you know a percentage of them noobies will kill their system doing it.

372667[/snapback]

Keeping in mind the large modding community for XBox's, I think that the relatively few numbers of PS2's that are modded (or attempted to be modded) are pretty inconsequential. I don't have any data on the broken PS2 debate, but I will say that Sony makes notoriously bad consumer electronics and my limited edition Z Gundam PS2 has a tendency to make music skip in certain games. If/when that system breaks, I'm not going to be too happy...

I still haven't heard a decnt argument for the excitement over the PS3. You can call the PS2 a success because of it's huge library, but all things equal Sony makes inferior systems. So when launch time comes around and the launch titles are as unappealing as ever, what makes you want to buy a PS3? The "it's gonna have the most games" excuse is a cop out, since market dominance goes in cycles. Tell someone in 1995 that Nintendo would be in third place and they'd look at you like you were crazy.

[F360°]

Keeping in mind the large modding community for XBox's, I think that the relatively few numbers of PS2's that are modded (or attempted to be modded) are pretty inconsequential.

You have it reversed, the Xbox may have a large modding community but the PS2 has a way larger modding community.

Also the Xbox is pretty much a PC while the PS2 is a still a pure Console. This alone is enough to pretty much state that the Xbox has a more familar enviornment for PC friendly people to do modding. When you are more comfortable in your working enviornment you'll have a less chance of screwing up. When I open a Xbox, I can point and know what is what, but when I open a PS2 I'm only know a very basics or parts. I mean many people knows how to build pcs now, but who do you know that can build a console, or a console compable.

Moding a PS2 is easier now since the trial and error period already took place, the same with the Xbox, but in both their trial and error period I would expect more damage on the PS2 side just because of the unfamilar enviornment.

[Duke Togo]

Here's a question for you: How many users used the PS2 as their main (or only) DVD player?

[Black Valkyrie]

Seldom.

[Ladic]

most consoles that break, aren't because of defects, but because people don't take care of their s**t.

[Zentrandude]

Here's a question for you: How many users used the PS2 as their main (or only) DVD player?

372713[/snapback]

One that i know of but he uses it because his regular dvd player is broken.

Edited February 22, 2006 by Zentrandude

[Radd]

Here's a question for you: How many users used the PS2 as their main (or only) DVD player?

372713[/snapback]

None that I know personally. The PS2 makes a pretty poor DVD player, with lots of skipping, refusing to play certain chapters, or outright failing to play certain DVDs altogether. At least in my experience.

Besides, most people I know have a DVD drive in their computer, and a DVD player for their television.

most consoles that break, aren't because of defects, but because people don't take care of their s**t.

While I'd normally argue that as the case, the same people I know that have gone through multiple PS2s also tend to have other consoles, and those other consoles still work as well as the day they bought them. One of my friends is a console collector. He has an NES, a Sega Master System, a Turbo Graphix, an N64, a Sega Saturn, etcetera. The only problems he's had have been with the Playstation and PS2.

This is a well known and documented problem.

[Black Valkyrie]

Yep the same thing happend with me and my friends.

[Zor Primus]

I had used my PS2 as a dvd player for almost 2 years, and during that time I had various problems mentioned already with freezes, skippings and no plays. It got to the point that I couldn't even play games anymore. I sent my system to their repair station in PA and they installed a new reader. At this point I had already gotten a stand alone dvd player so it was just back to being used as a game console. Granted I've only bought a hand ful of games since I am mostly a PC mmo player but its still there for nostalgic reasons lol.

[Dangard Ace]

Here's a question for you: How many users used the PS2 as their main (or only) DVD player?

372713[/snapback]

Almost everyday when I'm in front of the computer(almost everyday). I need my background white noise.

DRE - open up PS2, clean and adjust laser, DVD's playing again. Except for the older DVD's that had the layer freeze problem. Newer DVD's play like a charm.

[mikeszekely]

I think, initially, more people used the PS2 for a DVD player than today. Back then, DVDs were new and players expensive. I know I bought my first DVD because my PS2 could play it.

I bought a stand-alone player shortly thereafter, though. And today, you can buy an el-generico player at Wal-Mart for, what, $25?

[JB0]

ok,,instead of assuming the number of defective system there's another point that should be noted.

The simple fact that when the system breaks due to whatever reason, the owner is thinking about getting ANOTHER one or FIXING it means only one thing.  The Owner like the system or the games for that system, or for whatever the heck reason.

This alone equal sucess to me 

They're kind of stuck.

If someone has 10 games they bought at 50$ a piece when they were new, they have 500$ in software that's unusable without a new deck.

Emulation isn't an option, and there's no compatible hardware.

I don't see 10 games as an unreasonable level for a casual gamer. For someone that considers it a hobby, it's quite easy to have in excess of 2 grand locked up in one system's games, even with a bit of bargin-bin diving.

At that point you can sell the games for a miniscule fraction of what you originally paid, keep them on the off chance a new system falls into your lap, or cough up another 150 for a new deck.

For the casual gamer, the PS2 is likely the only system they have, and they've lost access to their entire game library.

For the hobbyist gamer, sheer quantity of releases means the PS2 will likely make up the majority of their current-gen collection.

[F360°]

ok,,instead of assuming the number of defective system there's another point that should be noted.

The simple fact that when the system breaks due to whatever reason, the owner is thinking about getting ANOTHER one or FIXING it means only one thing.  The Owner like the system or the games for that system, or for whatever the heck reason.

This alone equal sucess to me 

They're kind of stuck.

If someone has 10 games they bought at 50$ a piece when they were new, they have 500$ in software that's unusable without a new deck.

Emulation isn't an option, and there's no compatible hardware.

I don't see 10 games as an unreasonable level for a casual gamer. For someone that considers it a hobby, it's quite easy to have in excess of 2 grand locked up in one system's games, even with a bit of bargin-bin diving.

At that point you can sell the games for a miniscule fraction of what you originally paid, keep them on the off chance a new system falls into your lap, or cough up another 150 for a new deck.

For the casual gamer, the PS2 is likely the only system they have, and they've lost access to their entire game library.

For the hobbyist gamer, sheer quantity of releases means the PS2 will likely make up the majority of their current-gen collection.

372853[/snapback]

Ok , assuming the casual gamer has 10 games,, that they brought and played on their PS2. The System then breaks down.

If the owner buys another PS2 for replacement it’s obvious that the owner like his 10 Ps2 games enough to spend some more money on a new PS2 in order to replay them. Why would you buy another PS2 to replay 10 or 20 games that you think sucks?

And if those 10 or more games does indeed suck donkey poo and the owner still goes and buy another PS2 instead of a different console it can only mean the owner is interested in what the PS2 has to offer in the future, mainly future games.

Or a combination of both replay already own games that you enjoy and for future games that interests you.

So no, they are only stuck if they like what the PS2 has to offer.

It’s like me getting stuck with Macross and other Mecha items. I enjoy them, therefore I’m stuck with them.

[JB0]

ok,,instead of assuming the number of defective system there's another point that should be noted.

The simple fact that when the system breaks due to whatever reason, the owner is thinking about getting ANOTHER one or FIXING it means only one thing.  The Owner like the system or the games for that system, or for whatever the heck reason.

This alone equal sucess to me 

They're kind of stuck.

If someone has 10 games they bought at 50$ a piece when they were new, they have 500$ in software that's unusable without a new deck.

Emulation isn't an option, and there's no compatible hardware.

I don't see 10 games as an unreasonable level for a casual gamer. For someone that considers it a hobby, it's quite easy to have in excess of 2 grand locked up in one system's games, even with a bit of bargin-bin diving.

At that point you can sell the games for a miniscule fraction of what you originally paid, keep them on the off chance a new system falls into your lap, or cough up another 150 for a new deck.

For the casual gamer, the PS2 is likely the only system they have, and they've lost access to their entire game library.

For the hobbyist gamer, sheer quantity of releases means the PS2 will likely make up the majority of their current-gen collection.

372853[/snapback]

Ok , assuming the casual gamer has 10 games,, that they brought and played on their PS2. The System then breaks down.

If the owner buys another PS2 for replacement it’s obvious that the owner like his 10 Ps2 games enough to spend some more money on a new PS2 in order to replay them. Why would you buy another PS2 to replay 10 or 20 games that you think sucks?

But why would you HAVE games you think suck lying around? I make a point of getting rid of the stuff I don't like. I could assemble a list of 20 GREAT games for almost any system.

And quite bluntly, the casual gamer likely DOES have 10 games that suck, though he'll debate the point.

There's a disturbingly high number of casual gamers that think a game is good or bad based on how lavish an ad budget it has. Their opinion of the game is based on commercials and box pictures, and no actual game play will change that.

A large percentage of these gamers have PS2s(because Sony has had the most lavish ad campaigns).

WAY too many people are operating on the level of "Hey, I can make the shiny pictures on the screen move! This is awesome!" when evaluating games.

...

Of course, it's the same market that's making retarded TV shows and movies successfuly, so it's not much of a surprise.

[David Hingtgen]

I just have to chime in that I whole-heartedly agree. Most gamers are casual gamers, and buy crappy games that have big ad (read: covers of magazines) budgets.

Want proof? Hang around EB or Gamestop for a while. You won't have to wait too long for someone to come in with a bag FULL of old PSX games. They'll trade in like 23 crappy games you've never heard of, plus 3 bucks, and buy a used crappy PS2 game. (Used being in godawful condition and a whole 3 bucks off MSRP)

I once saw a guy trade in like 45 games and 50 bucks for a used PS2. They REALLY should have let other people (me) make our purchases first. (Yeah that was my yearly EB purchase, boy did I pick the wrong day)

[Zentrandude]

Anyone got any info of the secret device M$ is suposed to release soon? Some say its going to be like psp but xbox version

[JB0]

Anyone got any info of the secret device M$ is suposed to release soon?  Some say its going to be like psp but xbox version

374628[/snapback]

Not likely.

MS is still working on stabilzing their home footing. They'd be insane to split their focus with a portable right now.

[David Hingtgen]

You mean besides the pic of it and MS's own little hints via a Halo-style fake/viral website?

http://www.gamespot.com/news/show_blog_ent...pic_id=24365883

Still a potential "Bogus" to use a Gamespot term (blech, but their site loads fast) but I wouldn't be surprised if there actually is a portable XB.

Edited February 28, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[Apollo Leader]

It looks like Sony is admitting that the PS3 will probably be delayed until the fall or later:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6144963.html

Hopefully Sony can get Blu-Ray perfected and get this system down in price.

[Gaijin]

Fall won't be too much of a delay (US wise since that's when we would have prob seen it anyways). Though launching in both US and Japan at more or less the same time has me worried.