Which CONSOLE!?

[Black Valkyrie]

Note :

I think you guys know that Sega-CD plays copies without being chipped but even though you need a convertor to play Jap-Euro copies.

[JB0]

Note :

I think you guys know that Sega-CD plays copies without being chipped but even though you need a convertor to play Jap-Euro copies.

Yah.

Pre-CD-R, so they didn't see a need for copy protection.

[mikeszekely]

After about 5yrs(or whenever the PS2 came out) I'd expect any mechanical device to need some sort of tweaking to keep it working especially through the daily 3-4hrs of abuse I put it through.

I've owned the same CD player since I was in Jr. High, the same DVD player since maybe a year after the PS2 came out. I've had my Xbox since it came out, and I've had my Gamecube since it came out. The CD player in my car has been there for three years. Aside from my PS2 going bad, I'm yet to have to recalibrate any of them.

So.....you use each of those devices for 3-4 hrs daily?

The car CD player? No, I live pretty close to everything, so I guess that only runs for maybe an hour a day average. Likewise on the DVD player. And my Gamecube... well, it's almost in mint condition, considering how little I've used it.

But my CD player... you wouldn't believe how much use it got. I remember I used to turn down the volume on my TV, then throw a CD on while I played with my SNES. And in high school, if I was home, I had a CD on.

My Xbox, though? Yeah, I got through periods of inactivity when I don't use it, because I'm playing a PS2 game. But when it's the Xbox's turn... well, I finished the first KOTOR in four days. I can easily play for six or more hours, if I'm into a game.

[Black Valkyrie]

New Sega Genesis RPG ?!

http://www.gamesarefun.com/news.php?newsid=5172

[Wes]

New Sega Genesis RPG ?!

http://www.gamesarefun.com/news.php?newsid=5172

I remember someone releasing a SNES game 2 years after it had died, but this, wow. Make more sense to port it, guess it'll only be sold online.

[JB0]

New Sega Genesis RPG ?! 

http://www.gamesarefun.com/news.php?newsid=5172

I remember someone releasing a SNES game 2 years after it had died, but this, wow. Make more sense to port it, guess it'll only be sold online.

Gotta love the chinese...

But for raw impressiveness, nothing beats the 2600's newish RPG.

http://qotile.net/rpg.html

Edited June 21, 2005 by JB0

[mikeszekely]

Well, I'm sure JB0 can offer more insight into the actual feasibility of this kind of strategy... but it looks like the PS3 will be defective right out of the box.

Kutaragi story

"Logic LSIs, excluding memory chips, are considered defective and unshippable if just one transistor or line doesn't work. If the Cell's final chip dimension is about 200 square millimeters, making one without any defects is extremely difficult. We can't reach our anticipated production yield with that. Of course, we'll take various measures to lower the defect density, but that won't be enough. But by considering one or two SPEs as a redundancy from the very beginning, we can still use a Cell chip even if it's partially defective," Kutaragi said, who also revealed that a similar scheme would also be used for the PlayStation 3's RSX graphics processor.

[JB0]

Well, I'm sure JB0 can offer more insight into the actual feasibility of this kind of strategy... but it looks like the PS3 will be defective right out of the box.

Kutaragi story

"Logic LSIs, excluding memory chips, are considered defective and unshippable if just one transistor or line doesn't work. If the Cell's final chip dimension is about 200 square millimeters, making one without any defects is extremely difficult. We can't reach our anticipated production yield with that. Of course, we'll take various measures to lower the defect density, but that won't be enough. But by considering one or two SPEs as a redundancy from the very beginning, we can still use a Cell chip even if it's partially defective," Kutaragi said, who also revealed that a similar scheme would also be used for the PlayStation 3's RSX graphics processor.

If you write all software assuming one or 2 less SPEs than the spec'ed max, it's workable.

If it were PC software, it'd be no big deal. Just bin the Cells with bad SPEs as a lower-end model(if you remember 486 SX and DX, same deal. SX series was DX chips with a bad FPU). PC software's flexible enough that it doesn't matter.

Console software typically assumes a set hardware definition, so the redundant SPEs are just idle in fully good chips.

It makes more sense to me to just remove the redundant SPEs and make the chip smaller at that point. Making the chip smaller increases your yield, and more effectively than flagging some components as redundant, as far as I know.

I may be missing something in the chip fabrication process, though.

I'd argue for rectangular chips, except scrapping 2 SPEs keeps it rectangular, and Kutaragi is saying two redundants is possibly necessary.

Also possible they're just doing it so they can brag about how many vector processors they have, and gloss over the fact that 2 of them are either idle or dead.

Edit: Spoekn with someone that's been involved in chip fabrication.

Even a simple change like removing 2 SPEs from the end requires a major redesign. According to him, it'd take 2 years to redesign the chip to get rid of those redundant SPEs.

Short version: Sony expected fabrication processes to advance faster than they did, and the PS3 specs are taking a hit because of it.

Edited June 21, 2005 by JB0

[Hurin]

So this is how people feel when I talk too much about Star Wars.

[JB0]

So this is how people feel when I talk too much about Star Wars.

Been there, done that. Got the books to prove it, though I sold most of them when I moved out of that phase.

I've got my interests, and I enjoy talking about them.

Some would say I enjoy talking about them too much. I'd say they just need to find something that interests them more than whatever they have now.

[Hurin]

So this is how people feel when I talk too much about Star Wars.  

Been there, done that. Got the books to prove it, though I sold most of them when I moved out of that phase.

I've got my interests, and I enjoy talking about them.

Some would say I enjoy talking about them too much. I'd say they just need to find something that interests them more than whatever they have now.

I didn't intend offense (not that you seem offended, just making sure). My (worthless) comment was directed towards this thread as a whole. . . not you in particular. I just noticed a parallel between how I follow this thread even though I'm not terribly interested because some people whose posts I like to follow post in this thread. . . but I really don't care much either way about consoles. And this reminds me of the people who follow the Star Wars threads and other such threads where the debate gets very heated and seems irreconcilable even though they don't seem to care one way or the other.

I'll shut up now.

Edited June 21, 2005 by Hurin

[Duke Togo]

Well, I'm sure JB0 can offer more insight into the actual feasibility of this kind of strategy... but it looks like the PS3 will be defective right out of the box.

Kutaragi story

"Logic LSIs, excluding memory chips, are considered defective and unshippable if just one transistor or line doesn't work. If the Cell's final chip dimension is about 200 square millimeters, making one without any defects is extremely difficult. We can't reach our anticipated production yield with that. Of course, we'll take various measures to lower the defect density, but that won't be enough. But by considering one or two SPEs as a redundancy from the very beginning, we can still use a Cell chip even if it's partially defective," Kutaragi said, who also revealed that a similar scheme would also be used for the PlayStation 3's RSX graphics processor.

Yup, that's right. All PS3's will be defective. You caught them, the secret is out.

[JB0]

So this is how people feel when I talk too much about Star Wars. 

Been there, done that. Got the books to prove it, though I sold most of them when I moved out of that phase.

I've got my interests, and I enjoy talking about them.

Some would say I enjoy talking about them too much. I'd say they just need to find something that interests them more than whatever they have now.

I didn't intend offense (not that you seem offended, just making sure). My (worthless) comment was directed towards this thread as a whole. . . not you in particular. I just noticed a parallel between how I follow this thread even though I'm not terribly interested because some people whose posts I like to follow post in this thread. . . but I really don't care much either way about consoles. And this reminds me of the people who follow the Star Wars threads and other such threads where the debate gets very heated and seems irreconcilable even though they don't seem to care one way or the other.

I'll shut up now.

Nah. I wasn't offended in the least.

[JB0]

Well, I'm sure JB0 can offer more insight into the actual feasibility of this kind of strategy... but it looks like the PS3 will be defective right out of the box.

Kutaragi story

"Logic LSIs, excluding memory chips, are considered defective and unshippable if just one transistor or line doesn't work. If the Cell's final chip dimension is about 200 square millimeters, making one without any defects is extremely difficult. We can't reach our anticipated production yield with that. Of course, we'll take various measures to lower the defect density, but that won't be enough. But by considering one or two SPEs as a redundancy from the very beginning, we can still use a Cell chip even if it's partially defective," Kutaragi said, who also revealed that a similar scheme would also be used for the PlayStation 3's RSX graphics processor.

Yup, that's right. All PS3's will be defective. You caught them, the secret is out.

We already KNEW that. It was just a matter of degree.

Sony's got a reputation to maintain, after all.

Also note that this isn't really a defect per se. It's a scaling back of the specs.

[mikeszekely]

I've got my interests, and I enjoy talking about them.

Some would say I enjoy talking about them too much.

Not me, man. You're one of my favorite people to chat with, partly for the depth of seemingly trivial/overly technical knowledge locked in your brain, and partly for your willingness to strongly argue on any side of a debate just for the sake of discussion.

If you write all software assuming one or 2 less SPEs than the spec'ed max, it's workable.

Yeah, that's the impression that I got. Designed with 8 SPE's for symmetry, designed to run on 7 in the PS3. Cell's with more SPE's defective might be saved for other products.

It makes more sense to me to just remove the redundant SPEs and make the chip smaller at that point. Making the chip smaller increases your yield, and more effectively than flagging some components as redundant, as far as I know.

I may be missing something in the chip fabrication process, though.

Actually, I think that's part of the issue. The Cell is supposed to be smaller than a typical chip. The Cell, then, is more difficult to manufacture, because everything has to be so precise. That's also partly the reason no one's really bothered to make chips like the Cell until now.

[JB0]

I've got my interests, and I enjoy talking about them.

Some would say I enjoy talking about them too much.

Not me, man. You're one of my favorite people to chat with, partly for the depth of seemingly trivial/overly technical knowledge locked in your brain, and partly for your willingness to strongly argue on any side of a debate just for the sake of discussion.

Thank you.

It makes more sense to me to just remove the redundant SPEs and make the chip smaller at that point. Making the chip smaller increases your yield, and more effectively than flagging some components as redundant, as far as I know.

I may be missing something in the chip fabrication process, though.

Actually, I think that's part of the issue. The Cell is supposed to be smaller than a typical chip. The Cell, then, is more difficult to manufacture, because everything has to be so precise. That's also partly the reason no one's really bothered to make chips like the Cell until now.

I was left with the opposite impression. That the absurd # of vector processors made the Cell larger than most chips.

Guess I should pay more attention to the news sometimes.

I know a small chip increases yield, because a bad spot on the silicon wafer only affects a single chip, and with smaller chips, that's less area of the wafer that's got to be thrown out.

But if they're using a new process to increase the density, that could be what's screwing them too.

You take a hit on those initially, while the kinks are being worked out(presumably this hit is in theory offset by the increased # of chips per wafer, or some other factor pushing the decreased scale).

You get big payoffs down the line, when they let you pack more chips onto a given wafer at similar reliability to the old process.

[Black Valkyrie]

Nothing new but it was expected :

Report: Two percent of Japanese gamers want a 360

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/12/news_6128891.html

More from http://www.the-magicbox.com/gaming.htm

- C-news has polled 1000 Japanese Internet users regarding to the next generation consoles.

Which next generation console are you looking forward the most?

60% - PlayStation 3

8% - Revolution

2% - Xbox 360

30% - Not interested

Why do you choose PlayStation 3?

It is a successor of PlayStation 2

It will have more software

It is a Sony product

Realistic graphics

PS3 is the most powerful

PS3 has a lot of new technologies (Blue-ray, etc)

What do you most wanted to play on the new consoles?

80% - Well-known game series (Dragon Quest, Super Mario, etc)

60% - Original / completely new games

35% - Remakes of well-known titles or sequels

How much will you pay for the PlayStation 3?

20%: 15000 - 20000 yen

20%: 20000 - 25000 yen

20%: 25000 - 30000 yen

What game genres would you like to see on next generation consoles?

71.2% - Role Playing

52.8% - Simulation

47.9% - Action

41.1% - Adventure

23.4% - Shooting

[Radd]

Seems the upper price Japanese gamers are willing to pay is 30000 Yen, wich equates to roughtly $270, unless of course those were the only prices suggested in the the poll. I heard recently that Sony has stated they plan to release the console in Japan at equivilent to $400, wich is lower than was commonly speculated based on the cost to produce the console. Of course, I don't have a source on that price quote, so we'll see what it actually releases at and how that affects its role in the coming generation.

The PS2 released at only slightly less than the predicted PS3 price, $379 according to Wikipedia, wich only makes the prices listed for the poll seem all the more strange.

[mikeszekely]

I'm not sure what the people at Sony are thinking, and I'm not sure if those were the only choices in the poll or not... but I think everyone has a limit that they're willing to spend on a next-gen console. For me, that'd be somewhere in the ballpark of $300... and I'm not sure that Sony's willing to go that low on the PS3.

Toyo Keizai goes on to interview Sony Computer Entertainment president Ken Kutaragi, who avoided revealing the PS3's price but hinted that it would not be marked down excessively. "Whether consumers think a product is expensive or cheap all depends on the balance between its appeal and price," he said. "Our ideal [for the PS3] is for consumers to think to themselves, 'OK, I'll work more hours and buy it.' We want people to feel that they want it, no matter what."

"When Nintendo was selling its 16-bit machine at around 12,500 yen ($114), we sold the first PlayStation at 39,800 yen ($364)," continued Kutaragi. "The press was saying that it was expensive, but it was a huge hit. It's the same thing with the PlayStation Portable from last year. The Game Boy Advance is a same handheld gaming machine, and it costs less than 10 thousand yen ($91). On the other hand, our PSP had cost 25,000 yen ($229). But people lined up overnight to buy it, and it sold out on the day of its launch. It all depends on whether people want it. Of course, I'm confident that the PS3 is a product that people will definitely want."

Souce: Gamespot article

If the PS3 is going to cost more than $350 (and industry people are prediciting $400), I might have to hold off on it.

[Angel's Fury]

I'm not sure what the people at Sony are thinking, and I'm not sure if those were the only choices in the poll or not... but I think everyone has a limit that they're willing to spend on a next-gen console.  For me, that'd be somewhere in the ballpark of $300... and I'm not sure that Sony's willing to go that low on the PS3.

Toyo Keizai goes on to interview Sony Computer Entertainment president Ken Kutaragi, who avoided revealing the PS3's price but hinted that it would not be marked down excessively. "Whether consumers think a product is expensive or cheap all depends on the balance between its appeal and price," he said. "Our ideal [for the PS3] is for consumers to think to themselves, 'OK, I'll work more hours and buy it.' We want people to feel that they want it, no matter what."

"When Nintendo was selling its 16-bit machine at around 12,500 yen ($114), we sold the first PlayStation at 39,800 yen ($364)," continued Kutaragi. "The press was saying that it was expensive, but it was a huge hit. It's the same thing with the PlayStation Portable from last year. The Game Boy Advance is a same handheld gaming machine, and it costs less than 10 thousand yen ($91). On the other hand, our PSP had cost 25,000 yen ($229). But people lined up overnight to buy it, and it sold out on the day of its launch. It all depends on whether people want it. Of course, I'm confident that the PS3 is a product that people will definitely want."

Souce: Gamespot article

If the PS3 is going to cost more than $350 (and industry people are prediciting $400), I might have to hold off on it.

310060[/snapback]

Wow!!! That much for a PS3??

[Gaijin]

If PS3's sell at $399, they are still a deal for a Blu-Ray player. HD DVD and stand alone Blu Ray's are in the $500-$1000 range when they expect to debut soon(which worries me a lil since the PS3 is cheap compared to those, but the HT maket is different from the game one).

[yellowlightman]

If PS3's sell at $399, they are still a deal for a Blu-Ray player.  HD DVD and stand alone Blu Ray's are in the $500-$1000 range when they expect to debut soon(which worries me a lil since the PS3 is cheap compared to those, but the HT maket is different from the game one).

310306[/snapback]

$400 is too much for a game system, period. Saturn anyone?

The Blu-Ray player argument isn't very substancial because there's going to be signifigantly less demand for a Blue-Ray player than there was for DVDs. For most consumers they're not going to add enough to make it worthwhile to upgrade to another new format for all of their movies, especially when DVD is still relatively new.

The PS2 was helped considerably because it was a low cost DVD player. It sold well at launch in Japan because it was the cheapest DVD player there was, not because people wanted to play horrible launch games. The PS3 isn't going to have the same benefit...

[mikeszekely]

The Blu-Ray player argument isn't very substancial because there's going to be signifigantly less demand for a Blue-Ray player than there was for DVDs.

I'm seconding that. DVD was already the accepted standard when the PS2 came out. Blu-Ray isn't yet, and might never be.

And from what I understand, HD-DVD isn't actually supposed to be all that expensive, since they can be manufactured with only slight modifications to the production equipment. If HD-DVD is chosen as the standard, I predict players will debut at $300.

[JB0]

If PS3's sell at $399, they are still a deal for a Blu-Ray player.  HD DVD and stand alone Blu Ray's are in the $500-$1000 range when they expect to debut soon(which worries me a lil since the PS3 is cheap compared to those, but the HT maket is different from the game one).

310306[/snapback]

$400 is too much for a game system, period. Saturn anyone?

Note that in Japan, the Saturn and PS1 BOTH ran about 400$.

It wasn't until the US launch that the price wars began. And the Saturn dropped price rapidly to match the PS.

I'm not sure what the people at Sony are thinking, and I'm not sure if those were the only choices in the poll or not... but I think everyone has a limit that they're willing to spend on a next-gen console.  For me, that'd be somewhere in the ballpark of $300... and I'm not sure that Sony's willing to go that low on the PS3.

Toyo Keizai goes on to interview Sony Computer Entertainment president Ken Kutaragi, who avoided revealing the PS3's price but hinted that it would not be marked down excessively. "Whether consumers think a product is expensive or cheap all depends on the balance between its appeal and price," he said. "Our ideal [for the PS3] is for consumers to think to themselves, 'OK, I'll work more hours and buy it.' We want people to feel that they want it, no matter what."

"When Nintendo was selling its 16-bit machine at around 12,500 yen ($114), we sold the first PlayStation at 39,800 yen ($364)," continued Kutaragi. "The press was saying that it was expensive, but it was a huge hit. It's the same thing with the PlayStation Portable from last year. The Game Boy Advance is a same handheld gaming machine, and it costs less than 10 thousand yen ($91). On the other hand, our PSP had cost 25,000 yen ($229). But people lined up overnight to buy it, and it sold out on the day of its launch. It all depends on whether people want it. Of course, I'm confident that the PS3 is a product that people will definitely want."

Souce: Gamespot article

If the PS3 is going to cost more than $350 (and industry people are prediciting $400), I might have to hold off on it.

310060[/snapback]

Old quote, but still amusing.

Man, Kutaragi's hilarious.

Edited July 14, 2005 by JB0

[Gaijin]

I know $299 is the price point to be in the US but I doubt either of the big 2 will meet that this time around.

And HD-DVD and Blu Ray players debuting in the US for $300 would be heaven...but not very likely the first year. I agree it won't be as "hot" as DVD was but it is the future. Anyone with an HDTV is ready for the next thing, as SD DVD as good as it is, is lacking for some people. Again, this isn't something for the masses, however this is why Sony wants the PS3 and Blu ray to succeed. And regardless of the price, there are so many PS fans out there, there will be millions of blu ray players out before there are HD DVD players.

That being said, I am getting them all as always.

[JB0]

I know $299 is the price point to be in the US but I doubt either of the big 2 will meet that this time around.

They will once the consumers start buying the massively cheaper Revolution(I believe Nintendo's explicitly stated that they're shooting for a lower price point than the competition again).

It won't hurt TOO bad, as MS and Sony both have massive profits from other parts of their empire they can subsidize the game consoles with(and MS has through the entire current generation).

And before the fanboys start rambling about how no one'll buy a Revolution REGARDLESS of price...

Please note that Sony and MS followed every one of the GameCube's price cuts with one of their own, because undercutting the competition by a full hundred dollars DOES affect what people choose.

[mikeszekely]

I know $299 is the price point to be in the US but I doubt either of the big 2 will meet that this time around.

Microsoft's J Allard has already stated that the Xbox 360 will be "in the neighborhood of $300." If that doesn't translate to $299.99, I doubt it'll be much more.

[Radd]

...because undercutting the competition by a full hundred dollars DOES affect what people choose.

Not to mention, if one or two consoles did launch at higher prices than people were willing to pay, the developers would take notice, and move their support to the console(s) people were buying. Third party support flocks to the system with the biggest potential for sales, not the other way around.

[Gaijin]

They will once the consumers start buying the massively cheaper Revolution(I believe Nintendo's explicitly stated that they're shooting for a lower price point than the competition again).

It won't hurt TOO bad, as MS and Sony both have massive profits from other parts of their empire they can subsidize the game consoles with(and MS has through the entire current generation).

And before the fanboys start rambling about how no one'll buy a Revolution REGARDLESS of price...

Please note that Sony and MS followed every one of the GameCube's price cuts with one of their own, because undercutting the competition by a full hundred dollars DOES affect what people choose.

310491[/snapback]

Yes, but I meant neither will launch at that...if MS does, it will be very interesting indeed.

[mikeszekely]

Please note that Sony and MS followed every one of the GameCube's price cuts with one of their own, because undercutting the competition by a full hundred dollars DOES affect what people choose.

if MS does, it will be very interesting indeed.

This is exactly the reason why Microsoft will almost certainly launch at or very near $300. That gives them nearly a year at a price point already lower than what people are expecting the PS3 to cost, plus they can drop the price when the Revolution and PS3 come out, staying competetive with Nintendo and AND increasing a price difference between the 360 and and PS3. With more and more games being non-exclusive, I think a lot of people thinking PS3 now might start to find the 360 a more attractive choice... especially if Halo 3 really is released during the PS3 launch. When it's cheaper to buy an Xbox 360 AND Halo 3 than a PS3, it's going to take more than the "PlayStation" brand name to catch up.

[yellowlightman]

With more and more games being non-exclusive, I think a lot of people thinking PS3 now might start to find the 360 a more attractive choice... especially if Halo 3 really is released during the PS3 launch.  When it's cheaper to buy an Xbox 360 AND Halo 3 than a PS3, it's going to take more than the "PlayStation" brand name to catch up.

There's no way Halo 3 is going to come out this winter with the XBox 360. It would be nice, but it's not going to happen. From everything I heard it seems like Bungie's next game will not be a Halo sequel, and they got upset when Gates made the comment about Halo 3 being released when the PS3 comes out.

[mikeszekely]

There's no way Halo 3 is going to come out this winter with the XBox 360.

I agree. I'd look for it the following winter, with the PS3, which is what I originally said.

From everything I heard it seems like Bungie's next game will not be a Halo sequel, and they got upset when Gates made the comment about Halo 3 being released when the PS3 comes out.

I hadn't heard anything about Bungie being upset about Gates' comments or not, but it's been an industry rumor before Gates said anything. All signs do point to a Holiday '06 release for Halo 3.

Bungie's comments about what they're working on have been misleading. They've spoken a lot about what they're doing after Halo, but from what I recall, not specifically after Halo 2. Anyone who's finished Halo 2 knows Halo 3 is a given. I've always taken Bungie's comments as something more like Halo 3 was in development before Halo 2 was even finished, that Halo 3 will end the series, and that any talk about what Bungie is doing next means next after Halo 3.

[Smiley424]

I have never bought a console at launch. Got my NES right about the time Genesis launched. Skipped right over Genesis/Snes, Saturn/PS1/N64. Bought my own console with my own money two years ago when I sprung for a Gamecube to play Wind Waker. Currently own a slim PS2, my friend is taking care of my XBOX, and technically I still own the Gamecube as my friend still hasn't paid me for it.

I think I'm gonna wait for the first price cut on the new systems and just enjoy the quality games that'll be coming out for PS2/XBOX/Gamecube in the next 6 months to a year. Right now I'm giving it up for Sony and PS3 because it will have Blu Ray technology in the system. Saying that though, if Sony and Nintendo doesn't embrace online play like XBOX has with Live, that may give XBOX 360 the edge over the other two systems.

[Gaijin]

Some early pics of Resident Evil 5 supposedly for both the PS3 and the 360.

Edited July 20, 2005 by Gaijin

[Ladic]

Some early pics of Resident Evil 5 supposedly for both the PS3 and the 360.

312479[/snapback]

that's just awesome