A question about the Valkyrie..

[robokochan]

Hello all,

First off I want to say that I love Macross, it is just about the BEST Animation out there! But something has always bothered me about the series.

When the SDF fell and they aquired the Over-Technology, why did they build the Valkyrie the way they did. It is obvious that there were not any Valkyries already one the SDF. If anything there were Fighter Pods, and powered Armor of some kind. So my question is why make a Valkyrie that can change into Battroid Mode.

One reason could be that when they boarded the SDF and saw the sheer size of everything. For example whwn Hikaru and Minmay are trapped inside the engine room and they go out to get the Tuna Hikaru makes a comment about the size of the Air-lock. It could have been the same case when the Higher-Ups first got an assesment of the SDF.

Or when they boarded the SDF there were still bodies inside.

To me after seeing this I would feel that the Destroids would have been a better choice for mass production than investing in the Valkyrie. It is obvious that they spent more time and development on the Valkyrie instead of the Destroids.

Okay so they needed an air defense. Hence the Valkyrie comes in. But why make it transform into a humanoid shape. I can understand the need for Gerwalk Mode. But Battroid Mode seemed un-necessary at this point because thay had not encountered the Giant Zentradi yet. And they really didn't know that they were coming.

Anyway I am sure I am leaving something else out that I wanted to ask.....

So your opinions please. (I wonder how many post will say: "Because it's friggin' cool man....)

Rob

[treatment]

Uhmm, Valkyrie's are a multi-role weapon?

I mean, the destroids seems to be only good for static/limited-movement ground combat, i.e. traditional tanks and missile-boats.

And, yeah. Valkyries are friggin' kewl!

Edited September 24, 2003 by treatment

[Radd]

And they really didn't know that they were coming.

Actually they did. Roy states in episode 2 or 3 that they knew about the giants, just not that they would look like humans (which leads to the belief that there were no bodies on boards).

That's about the most I can offer as a suggestion. It would have been cheaper to make straight Destroid type infantry mecha and pure space fighters that didn't transform.

Of course, with the way the engines could be swung around, and how the entire flight profile of the craft could be changed in an instant, Valkyries are incredibly maneuverable. The UNS probably didn't want to take any chances with the threat of an advanced alien force hanging over their heads. "Better safe than sorry, let's put everything we've got into this project!"

In actuality, Kawamori and crew probably just thought transforming jet/robots would be a cool idea. In reality why bother making a humanoid robot at all? A tank made using the level of technological advancement it would take to make a giant, humanoid robot, would be a lot more deadly. Smaller, lower to the ground, packing just as much if not more firepower and armour, less vulnerable to joints and thinner limbes being shot off or damaged. A lot more maneuverable to boot. The same could be said for a pure jet/space fighter. It probably wouldn't look much like a modern jet fighter, though. Probably a cockpit hanging in a frame that can alter direction at a moment's notice, giving the maneuaverability that the Valkyries have and then some.

I suppose my argument boils down to the fact that the most realistic approach isn't always the coolest, and transforming jet fighters are friggin' cool!

Honestly, is there a more truthful answer?

[myk]

Yeah, the multi-role thing. Domination of the skies is the first step in any engagement, hence the Valkyrie as a fighter. You gotta' figure on ground combat before the destroids and other heavy equipment arrive on the scene, so that's where the Gerwalk and Battroid modes come into service...

[imode]

So your opinions please. (I wonder how many post will say: "Because it's friggin' cool man....)

Rob

Can't argue with that

Most likely, they figured Earth and other planets would also be a battlefield and thus needed something that resembled more of a foot soldier. Destroids were far to ungainly for that and instead settled into the mobile artillery and static defense role.

And yes, Valk's are friggin cool too.

[ewilen]

I agree with Radd, except that the Valkyrie in Gerwalk/Battroid is more maneuverable than anything that would resemble a tank. It also has the sheer mass to crash through obstacles (aided by overtech armor) and punch it out with Zentradi.

And I agree with myk & treatment that the battroid mode allows a Valkyrie force to provide a ground combat capability which can be inserted into a defensive position and which can take ground faster than the destroids. Valkyies are like combination air superiority/tactical bomber/airborne cavalry. (In theory, they're probably a little less heavy-duty than the destroids, or the destroids are a lot cheaper...maybe a combination, since the destroids always seem to get blasted. It does appear that destroids largely went out of fashion after SpaceWar I.)

Finally, yes, you do have the coolness factor. It's nice to try to explain everything without resorting to meta-factors, but ultimately you have to admit that the Zentradi themselves aren't particularly good weapons. If the Protoculture were really developing a race of super-warriors, they'd probably be human-sized clones, cyborgs, robots, or not even humanoid at all but rather AI-controlled autonomous weapons. I'm sure the Zentradi were invented as an excuse to have battloids. So we have to cut the series some slack, just as we do most anime and science fiction.

Edited September 24, 2003 by ewilen

[Hurin]

If our real, present-day militaries could come up with a indominatable air-superiority fighter that could also land on the ground and become an all-terrain, super-fast, maneuverable, and devastatingly powerful armored weapons systems, don't think that they wouldn't jump at the chance!

H

[Abombz!!]

I guess it would be.... because Destroids aren't able to fly. To have 2 different units for air engagement and ground engagement would mean twice the amount of resources relocated to the war effort. Instead.... they build 1 unit that could do both in above average performance.

I doubt they had anyways of keeping Destroids up in the air for very long. And while missile interception might be very effective, it is not nearly as effective as sending out units to battle enemies right in the air. Even the Zentradi Power Armors weren't really that effective in atmosphere, and I doubt any Q-Raus were found in the crashed SDF.

Its all about saving costs and space I guess.

[Mr March]

Hello all,

*snip*

So your opinions please.  (I wonder how many post will say: "Because it's friggin' cool man....)

I love these threads. I'll provide my thoughts.

Let's start with the basics. As a few have already mentioned, the UN Spacy was very much aware that the aliens were giants. How much more they knew is left to conjecture, but it's confirmed in Macross canon that the UN Spcay knew the existance of aliens and the UN Spacy knew they were giant in stature (Roy's revelation in SDF Macross). Second, they wanted a military vehicle to go toe-to-toe with the giants, just like any other infrantry. So they made the Valkyries giant robots.

Digging beneath the surface of Macross, we can see numerous, better conceived reasons to create a transforming mecha. Hence, I'll analyze why Macross has one of the most spectacular setups for a sci-fi series ever created.

The best and most obvious reason a Valkyrie was created was need; the whole "necessity being the mother of invention" cliche and what not. The UN Spacy needed an anti-alien soldier. The revelation that the aliens were giants must have come as a terrible blow to the human militaries of the world. Despite all the advances in technology, the most numerous and deadly unit in any military is the soldier. The fact that the aliens were giant told the humans their primary means of waging war - the human soldier - is totally and absolutely obselete. All factors of warfare being equal, your human grunt will lose to this type of alien grunt everytime. A soldier was needed to combat the alien soldier, so they made a humanoid mecha.

The second and less obvious reason a Valkyrie was created was because it could be done; the means were available so the reason to create was obvious. In addition to the need for a soldier to defeat the alien soldier, the UN Spacy needed new hardware for a new type of war. They needed to build new weapons like starships and humanoid mecha, but they still needed tried and true military hardware, like fighters and tanks. Hence, the OT proved mecha could be made practical, so why not solve the need for a mecha, an atmosphereic fighter, and a space craft all in one shot? Think of the versatility; a single weapon system that could meet the alien soldier, meet the alien airforces, and meet the alien space craft on their own battlefield and win. Why make a transformable fighter/mecha? The real question should be "Why wouldn't the Valkyrie be made?"

The third and definitely least obvious reason was time; the UN Spacy was against the clock. There was no question more aliens would arrive on Earth. An alien ship already had arrived...contact was inevitable. The only question was when. The UN SPacy obviously decided aliens would arrive sooner...not later. So an answer to all the UN Spacy's new military needs was required. They need new mecha; they needed new space craft; they needed a single answer. The Valkyrie was created and solved all their needs. And while it was designed with the drawbacks of any multi-purpose unit, new hardware was developed to make up for its shortcomings. The FAST Packs were designed to give the Valkyrie space superiority, something the standard configuration may have lacked agaisnt dedicated enemy hardware. The GBP-1S Armor System was developed to give the Valkyrie ground superiority, something else the standard configuration may have lacked against dedicated enemy hardware. The UN Spacy was unprepared and out of its league in this new era of warfare and they knew it. They gambled that they could create one machine that could at least allow their military to set foot upon the new battlefield...and fight. So the UN Spacy put all their hopes on the Valkyrie.

Moving on to destroids, the reason they needed Valkyries over destroids was simple. The UN Spacy required a soldier to defeat the alien soldier not just on the ground, but anywhere an alien soldier could go. The UN Spacy needed a solider on the ground, in the air, and in space. Destroids could fulfill only a single role. So the Valkyrie was made.

Well, that was fun. Hope you like it

Edited September 24, 2003 by Mr March

[JsARCLIGHT]

The way I see it several "facts" where self-evident to the UN:

- there where very, very large people out there in space that could build very advanced weapons... people don't generally build weapons and never use them so the UN had better make weapons to defend against these giants.

- said gaints come from space. No person wants to fight an enemy in their own backyard so it could be assumed that any conflicts would be in space and would require trans-atmospheric combat vehicles capable of meeting the giants on an equal footing in any environment.

- all this time you need to keep the earth's population "in check". If people knew of the exsistance of these space giants with the technology to cross galaxies and lay waste to entire worlds there would be panic in the streets. Therefore the frontline fighting units of the future should resemble common military items to a degree and should not present themselves as what they truly are: i.e. make them transform to hide their true purpose.

- The old saying of Adapt and Overcome. An enemy cannot begin to predict the unpredictable, and what is more unpredictable than something that is really three things in one with three different performance capabilities?

[Mr March]

If our real, present-day militaries could come up with a indominatable air-superiority fighter that could also land on the ground and become an all-terrain, super-fast, maneuverable, and devastatingly powerful armored weapons systems, don't think that they wouldn't jump at the chance!

H

A better reason for why tank supporters are insane to suggest mecha are inferior, I can't imagine

[MicronianDevil]

So my question is why make a Valkyrie that can change into Battroid Mode.

Well the answer to your question is in the first 3 episodes. Urban warfare.

[cobywan]

Don't forget about the cost of transporting Destroids to a combat zone. That required the Daedalus landing ship. That is much slower than having your mecha fly directly to the site.

[Basara]

The primary points about bigger, heavier infantry holds true, for the most part, but the most logical sollution would be to give our grunts bigger LAWs, ATGMs, etc. You could have tons of tiny guys running around taking down hulking Zentrans with small, but dealy anti-tank weaponry. Of course, this only applies to ground combat, where the Destroids would do fine in... hence the Valkyrie.

One additional cardinal rule about defensive combat is, never fight a battle on your own soil, or inthis case, your own planet. By the time that happens, you're pretty much fubared. Take the fight to the enemy, or fight on intervening terrain. Hence the need for space capable Valkyries which can engage the in space before they hit Earth...

Still, I would have liked to seen lots of infantry run up against the Zentrans, especially in the urban scenaios, where they could pop out of a window and take out a Zentraedi eyeball, then duck away and shear off a knee cap... Boy, wouldn't that have been annoying.

[ewilen]

If our real, present-day militaries could come up with a indominatable air-superiority fighter that could also land on the ground and become an all-terrain, super-fast, maneuverable, and devastatingly powerful armored weapons systems

...the airforce would lobby against it. ("Not a pound for air-to-ground.")

And I forgot to mention, if we're going to examine the logic of building Valkyries, we also need to question not only the Protoculture's logic in making Zentradi, but the biophysical challenge of having a Zentran stand/walk/run without having his bones crack and his tendons tear from his weight/mass. I have noticed that the giants in DYRL look like they're wearing special boots and possibly uniforms that may give them an "exoskeleton", but it's still pretty implausible. Are Zentradi actually "grown" around artificial internal skeletons made of materials stronger than bone?

Again, I do enjoy these sorts of technical discussions--and I really appreciate the fact that Valkyries transform for a reason that makes sense within the story, instead of just transforming for the sake of transforming--but we have to make some allowances for the anime/scifi genre.

Edited September 24, 2003 by ewilen

[Lightning]

Still, I would have liked to seen lots of infantry run up against the Zentrans, especially in the urban scenaios, where they could pop out of a window and take out a Zentraedi eyeball, then duck away and shear off a knee cap... Boy, wouldn't that have been annoying.

makes my knee hurt just thinking about it...

[JB0]

And I forgot to mention, if we're going to examine the logic of building Valkyries, we also need to question not only the Protoculture's logic in making Zentradi,

Psychological warfare.

It's one thing to see a jet flying in at you, it's quite another to see a human being towering over you ready to squash you like a cockroach.

but the biophysical challenge of having a Zentran stand/walk/run without having his bones crack and his tendons tear from his weight/mass. I have noticed that the giants in DYRL look like they're wearing special boots and possibly uniforms that may give them an "exoskeleton", but it's still pretty implausible. Are Zentradi actually "grown" around artificial internal skeletons made of materials stronger than bone?

Well, they COULD have been engineered to grow a skeletal system laced with iron fibers to strengthen it.

It'd seem to throw a wrench into the whole genetic compatibility thing, but...

All we know for certain is that Komillia was defined as "very tough" by a rather calm Max when Millia threw her across the room to Misa(and missed, since Misa had to dive forward to catch her).

One has to assume that means this sort of behavior was a semi-regular occurance in the Jenius household, and that it hadn't caused any major injuries(not to Komillia anyways). That would imply a signifigantly above-average durability in zentradi, even in infancy.

...

Heh. I can just see Max explaining that to his parents.

"Yes mom, my wife just through your granddaughter at you like a football."

[Basara]

Still, I would have liked to seen lots of infantry run up against the Zentrans, especially in the urban scenaios, where they could pop out of a window and take out a Zentraedi eyeball, then duck away and shear off a knee cap... Boy, wouldn't that have been annoying.

makes my knee hurt just thinking about it...

Makes your knee hurt? Don't tell me you've been shot by a LAW in the leg...

[0Coota0]

Here's my two cents. Destroids are great,but they take longer to move into position, and they get raped by fighters becuase of their lack of manuverability, but they have a much larger weapons load than the Valks typically do, the Valks however are much faster and more manuverable, but with less armor and less firepower. Which leaves you with three forces:

Non-transformable fighters

Destroids

Valks

Here's how you use them:

Non-transformable fighters- Take on air threats, and make air/spacebourne attacks on enemy targets, used as air suport and to maintain air superiority

Destroids- counter ground threats, used for defens of static structures, move in and take ground (infantry and Armor), and function as Artillery

Valks- Used for air defense and air attack, air defense, ground attack in cities and on the ground, but also as shock troops, they hit quick and hard but are less lightly armed and armored, they're basiclly Marines, they make the beach head, the Dadelous pulls up on the Beach head drops off a bunch of destroids, the destroids maintain the fight with convintional air cover and Valks, while the Valks that originally hit the beach retire tto be rested and rearmed.

Just my opnion

P.S. a strtegic style Macross game would be really cool, but I think I'd rather a Macross Zero one

[Oihan]

Hello all,

*snip*

So your opinions please.  (I wonder how many post will say: "Because it's friggin' cool man....)

I love these threads. I'll provide my thoughts.

Let's start with the basics. As a few have already mentioned, the UN Spacy was very much aware that the aliens were giants. How much more they knew is left to conjecture, but it's confirmed in Macross canon that the UN Spcay knew the existance of aliens and the UN Spacy knew they were giant in stature (Roy's revelation in SDF Macross). Second, they wanted a military vehicle to go toe-to-toe with the giants, just like any other infrantry. So they made the Valkyries giant robots.

Digging beneath the surface of Macross, we can see numerous, better conceived reasons to create a transforming mecha. Hence, I'll analyze why Macross has one of the most spectacular setups for a sci-fi series ever created.

The best and most obvious reason a Valkyrie was created was need; the whole "necessity being the mother of invention" cliche and what not. The UN Spacy needed an anti-alien soldier. The revelation that the aliens were giants must have come as a terrible blow to the human militaries of the world. Despite all the advances in technology, the most numerous and deadly unit in any military is the soldier. The fact that the aliens were giant told the humans their primary means of waging war - the human soldier - is totally and absolutely obselete. All factors of warfare being equal, your human grunt will lose to this type of alien grunt everytime. A soldier was needed to combat the alien soldier, so they made a humanoid mecha.

The second and less obvious reason a Valkyrie was created was because it could be done; the means were available so the reason to create was obvious. In addition to the need for a soldier to defeat the alien soldier, the UN Spacy needed new hardware for a new type of war. They needed to build new weapons like starships and humanoid mecha, but they still needed tried and true military hardware, like fighters and tanks. Hence, the OT proved mecha could be made practical, so why not solve the need for a mecha, an atmosphereic fighter, and a space craft all in one shot? Think of the versatility; a single weapon system that could meet the alien soldier, meet the alien airforces, and meet the alien space craft on their own battlefield and win. Why make a transformable fighter/mecha? The real question should be "Why wouldn't the Valkyrie be made?"

The third and definitely least obvious reason was time; the UN Spacy was against the clock. There was no question more aliens would arrive on Earth. An alien ship already had arrived...contact was inevitable. The only question was when. The UN SPacy obviously decided aliens would arrive sooner...not later. So an answer to all the UN Spacy's new military needs was required. They need new mecha; they needed new space craft; they needed a single answer. The Valkyrie was created and solved all their needs. And while it was designed with the drawbacks of any multi-purpose unit, new hardware was developed to make up for its shortcomings. The FAST Packs were designed to give the Valkyrie space superiority, something the standard configuration may have lacked agaisnt dedicated enemy hardware. The GBP-1S Armor System was developed to give the Valkyrie ground superiority, something else the standard configuration may have lacked against dedicated enemy hardware. The UN Spacy was unprepared and out of its league in this new era of warfare and they knew it. They gambled that they could create one machine that could at least allow their military to set foot upon the new battlefield...and fight. So the UN Spacy put all their hopes on the Valkyrie.

Moving on to destroids, the reason they needed Valkyries over destroids was simple. The UN Spacy required a soldier to defeat the alien soldier not just on the ground, but anywhere an alien soldier could go. The UN Spacy needed a solider on the ground, in the air, and in space. Destroids could fulfill only a single role. So the Valkyrie was made.

Well, that was fun. Hope you like it

I like Mr March's answer best.

Well put! $$$

[Mr March]

*snip*

And I forgot to mention, if we're going to examine the logic of building Valkyries, we also need to question not only the Protoculture's logic in making Zentradi, but the biophysical challenge of having a Zentran stand/walk/run without having his bones crack and his tendons tear from his weight/mass. I have noticed that the giants in DYRL look like they're wearing special boots and possibly uniforms that may give them an "exoskeleton", but it's still pretty implausible. Are Zentradi actually "grown" around artificial internal skeletons made of materials stronger than bone?

You are just itching to discuss this one aren't you? I recall a thread not long since which mentioned this...hehehe.

[Mr March]

Here's my two cents. Destroids are great,but they take longer to move into position, and they get raped by fighters becuase of their lack of manuverability, but they have a much larger weapons load than the Valks typically do, the Valks however are much faster and more manuverable, but with less armor and less firepower. Which leaves you with three forces:

Non-transformable fighters

Destroids

Valks

Here's how you use them:

Non-transformable fighters- Take on air threats, and make air/spacebourne attacks on enemy targets, used as air suport and to maintain air superiority

Destroids- counter ground threats, used for defens of static structures, move in and take ground (infantry and Armor), and function as Artillery

Valks- Used for air defense and air attack, air defense, ground attack in cities and on the ground, but also as shock troops, they hit quick and hard but are less lightly armed and armored, they're basiclly Marines, they make the beach head, the Dadelous pulls up on the Beach head drops off a bunch of destroids, the destroids maintain the fight with convintional air cover and Valks, while the Valks that originally hit the beach retire tto be rested and rearmed.

Just my opnion

P.S. a strtegic style Macross game would be really cool, but I think I'd rather a Macross Zero one

You're basically onto the same thing I am but you're examining the need for both Destroids and Valkyries. I agree totally with your analysis. It can be summed up with the term "Combined Arms".

[Mr March]

I like Mr March's answer best.

Well put! $$$

Thank you, thank you.

[ewilen]

*snip*

And I forgot to mention, if we're going to examine the logic of building Valkyries, we also need to question not only the Protoculture's logic in making Zentradi, but the biophysical challenge of having a Zentran stand/walk/run without having his bones crack and his tendons tear from his weight/mass. I have noticed that the giants in DYRL look like they're wearing special boots and possibly uniforms that may give them an "exoskeleton", but it's still pretty implausible. Are Zentradi actually "grown" around artificial internal skeletons made of materials stronger than bone?

You are just itching to discuss this one aren't you? I recall a thread not long since which mentioned this...hehehe.

No, really, I'm not. I'd rather just sweep the whole thing under the rug I only bring it up as a way of warding off the really tough questions about whether Valks are realistic.

[Cdr Fokker]

One other reason for a fully-variable craft such as the Valkyrie has been hinted at by many responses, but not directly mentioned: logistics.

Why have several different destroids with varying integral weapon systems in addition to air/space fighting craft and their repsective munitions, when you can instead have one all-purpose system, the Valkyrie?

The Valkyrie's main armament, the 55mm GU-11 gunpod, establishes a single standard munition for land and space/air combat. So you don't have to worry about securing quantities of various munitions (differing calibers, varying missiles for the Destroids' various missile racks, etc) In addition, the Valkyrie is semi-modular when put together with its other weapon systems (primarily the FAST packs and GBP-1S armor), as well as being able to use a wide variety of conventional munitions for fixed-wing aircraft, making it even more multi-purpose.

Having such an all-purpose unit maximizes the commonality of supply/logistics requirements for frontline units in all theatres.

[Jawjaw]

One of the big reasons I waw initially attracted to Macross was because I thought the mecha made sense. The people on earth knew there was huge aliens running around in space with advanced weapons that would probably come to earth looking for the SDF1. Building multi functional valyries that could fight in any environment and against any type of enemy seems logical to me. Of course, in the real world, we would never build such a complicated piece of machinery. Like you said Monkey, it would make more sense to have fast aircraft and destroids. They would be much easier to train pilots for and would be cheaper to build. But Macross would not be very entertaining if they were going to be that realistic.

[J A Dare]

Having such an all-purpose unit maximizes the commonality of supply/logistics requirements for frontline units in all theatres.

So does this make the JOINT Strike Fighter our pseudo-proto-Valkyrie? B)

[madmacks]

ive always wondered why in macross zero they say that they made battloids to fight during the unification wars...

[Chuey]

Having such an all-purpose unit maximizes the commonality of supply/logistics requirements for frontline units in all theatres.

So does this make the JOINT Strike Fighter our pseudo-proto-Valkyrie? B)

As various members have pointed out, valkyries play a number of roles in various campaigns. In Macross Plus, you could see how the UN Spacy tried to push the envelop on assessing the YF-19 and YF-21's air and ground combat capabilities. JSF program, for both Lockheed and Boeing, definitely represents the current trend to create a jack-of-all-trades fighter. These fighters willl serve the USAF, USMC and USN, along with the UK, to replace current jets like the F-16, the Harriers and the A-10s.

Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)

[robokochan]

Thanks for all your in-depth and very techincal answers. I never really expected so many responses. I was just hoping everyone would say: Because it's friggin' Cool!

Anyway I can understand the psychological factor that Battroid mode would have on ground forces. Especially walking units.

And I also like Macross because the Mecha in it are the most believable. (Don't get me started on Gundam).

Thanks again for all the replies. They more than answered the questions that I had been pondering.

Here's a new question: (And the answer may be floating areound here somewhere.)

They built the Destroids for ground missions and defense. The Valkyries are in the air. Did they ever build variable craft for the ocean? Something fast that could traget and engage in air craft or ships. Something smaller than a Sub. Any comments?

[Lindem Herz]

Did they ever build variable craft for the ocean? Something fast that could traget and engage in air craft or ships. Something smaller than a Sub. Any comments?

VA-3M. The marine variant of the VA-3.

Not that every other VFs didn't have some kind of limited underwater capabilities. B)