VF-19 vs VF-22

[valk1j]

wow never saw egan post so much in a single day.

I didnt even know he had an account here!

Nice job on the Macross Compendium Egan. Good stuff.

Yeah Egan's been here for a while. He only posts to clear up inconsistencies about various valks. Him and Nanashi have gone back and forth quite a bit.

[Zentrandude]

wow never saw egan post so much in a single day.

I didnt even know he had an account here!

Nice job on the Macross Compendium Egan. Good stuff.

Im surprised you never saw egan do the smack down on nash.

[AlphaHX]

wow never saw egan post so much in a single day.

I didnt even know he had an account here!

Nice job on the Macross Compendium Egan. Good stuff.

Im surprised you never saw egan do the smack down on nash.

Sounded fun. Too bad I missed it.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Well I still think the features of the yf21 cooler (who cares what the creator thinks, the thread asks us, the fans ) than features of the 19 given that all the creator did was deny improvments of the basic stuff for the 22 and take out the cool things from the yf21.

-take out bcs so the 19 could compete. (yet in dyrl an alien had its head wired into a giant ship for thousands of years with no probs)

-making it almost lose in a hand to hand combat in macross plus when the machine has arm guns, and two shields built-in + 2 gunpods whereas the 19 only has 1 gunpod (with clips I might add) and 1 sheild. doh! (what was guld thinking? He could have mowed that 19 down with both gunpods held at the same time, then finished it off with ppb punch and arm guns)

-not upgrading as much just to give the 19 a chance. So the 19 has its problems "fixed", but the 21/22 doesn't? Not fair. What if an alien race that doesn't care about pilot safety uses the design of the BCS/BDI to fight agianst un spacy in a future war? (stealing one and reverse engineering the tech and mass producing them - un spacy would be doomed.)

We can just say that with more funding and suport in future, general galaxy may have been able to fix problems they were having with the BCS (selling to other clients) and thus max and milia as ace pilots + BCS + "enhancements that 19 series got that the 22 didn't", make 21/22 better. An enhanced 22 with ace pilots (if somebody like guld could pull off those manuevers to beat the ghost with BCS, then imagine what max could do?? ) with the removed features would tip the vf22 as da best mecha making the 19 the cannon fodder of the future and the 22 for the l33t aces. The logic being the cooler valk is always piloted by the aces (whose opinion matters more then the average ppl) who are worth the extra expense. (eg fast packs only given out to the best pilots in the tv series at first before being standard)

The funny thing is that Mylene being the daughter of milia automatically has naturally-good piloting ability despite no experience. I would think if you could just bring back cloning and take the best stock and make them your super soldiers you would have a kick ass valk delta assasin team. Fold in, take out important targets with the elite forces, then haul ass before the main forces get there to take care of the rest. With special mind conditioning and drugs to accept the BCS and get used to it, this would be better than sending stupid ai controlled robots which aren't sensitive to all situations and tactics that would need a human. (ai is only as smart as the programmer makes it. The AI might be too trigger happy and give position away too early, or be too predictable for example)

Edited May 17, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Nied]

I think a possible reason that several test pilots were killed or injured during the testing of the YF-19 was perhaps beacuse the fly-by-wire (or is it fly-by-light) flight control software was still not perfected at that time.

That's a point I hadn't thought of Graham. I was thinking along the lines of the FBW software beingtweaked to smooth out some of the YF-19s more troublesome aerodynamic tendancies, but it's also possible that the software code itself might have led to more than a few acidents. This seems to be happening already with some newer FBW aircraft (on the YF-23's first flight the FBW system tried desperately to compensate for the bumps and dips the plane hit while taxing to the runway, and the second YF-22 prototype was felled by a software glitch that sent it porpoising into the ground), and I have to think the YF-19 has to have something even more complex.

[Zentrandude]

I think a possible reason that several test pilots were killed or injured during the testing of the YF-19 was perhaps beacuse the fly-by-wire (or is it fly-by-light) flight control software was still not perfected at that time.

That's a point I hadn't thought of Graham. I was thinking along the lines of the FBW software beingtweaked to smooth out some of the YF-19s more troublesome aerodynamic tendancies, but it's also possible that the software code itself might have led to more than a few acidents. This seems to be happening already with some newer FBW aircraft (on the YF-23's first flight the FBW system tried desperately to compensate for the bumps and dips the plane hit while taxing to the runway, and the second YF-22 prototype was felled by a software glitch that sent it porpoising into the ground), and I have to think the YF-19 has to have something even more complex.

I was thinking it gave the vf-19 the western cowboy theme like a wild horse that can't be broken and bucked off all othe other cowboys who tried to tame it then the hero comes and breaks it in.

[EganLoo]

Please take everything below in good humor -- it's just a friendly discussion.

Well I still think the features of the yf21 cooler (who cares what the creator thinks, the thread asks us, the fans ) than features of the 19 given that all the creator did was deny improvments of the basic stuff for the 22 and take out the cool things from the yf21.

That's right--coolness is a matter of opinion. And there's nothing wrong with that. Fans are free to like whatever mecha they choose. As long as this is a mecha equivalent of a beauty pageant, then technical specs should play as little a role as hip and waist measurements.

The problem arises when technical specs are used to back up which mecha is "cooler." Then you have to be careful when these specs are either misquoted, taken out of context, or completely ignored just because a group of fans doesn't like them. After all, if someone says, "IMHO, this is what the specs should have been," what's to stop another fan from inventing his/her own specs to counter that?

For example, some here say the VF-22S would be just as fast and maneuverable as the VF-19S "if only" it got VF-19S's engines and verniers. If that can happen, why can't the VF-19S be just as weapon-loaded as the VF-22S "if only" it got VF-22S's weapons?

-take out bcs so the 19 could compete.

-making it almost lose in a hand to hand combat in macross plus when the machine has arm guns, and two shields built-in + 2 gunpods whereas the 19 only has 1 gunpod (with clips I might add) and 1 sheild. doh! (what was guld thinking? He could have mowed that 19 down with both gunpods held at the same time)

As noted above, the YF-19's shield is anti-projectile while the YF-21's shields aren't described as such--after all, they're repurposed stabilizers. The YF-19 also has two wing cannons which can be rotated freely about in Battroid mode. (Think of them as shoot-from-the-hip rifles.)

The biggest problem with YF-21 "mowing down with gun pods" at close range is that any rapid ammo fire deflected by YF-19's anti-projectile shield (with or without the pin-point barrier) has a dangerous chance of ricocheting back at the YF-21. (In another words, you don't fire a machine gun at point-blank range against a steel plate.

-not upgrading as much just to give the 19 a chance. So the 19 has its problems "fixed", but the 21/22 doesn't? Not fair. What if an alien race that doesn't care about pilot safety uses the design of the BCS/BDI to fight agianst un spacy in a future war? (stealing one and reverse engineering the tech and mass producing them - un spacy would be doomed.)

We can just say that with more funding in future, general galaxy may have been able to fix problems they were having with the BCS and max and milia as ace pilots + BCS + "enhancements that 19 series got that the 22 didn't", make 21/22 better. An enhanced 22 with ace pilots (if somebody like guld could pull off those manuevers to beat the ghost with BCS, then imagine what max could do?? ) with the removed features would tip the vf22 as da best mecha making the 19 the cannon fodder of the future and the 22 for the l33t aces. 

The what-if game goes two ways -- if the VF-22S can get an improved BCS and variable wing cross-section technology, what's to stop the VF-19S from getting them as well -- in other words, getting the "enhancements that the VF-22 got that the -19 series didn't"?

Perhaps the best solution is not play this "what-if" game at all, and just stick with the established statistics. That way, we don't get this escalating cat-and-mouse game that has little to do with the actual Macross story.

In short, once again, the VF-19S got the faster engine and more maneuverable verniers because it matched and earned the UN main fighter role, while the VF-22S got the more massive payload because it matched and earned the UN special ops fighter role. Neither is better in all areas than the other. Each has its own unique mission roles. Which is exactly the way different but complementary weapons are used in effective real-life militaries.

The logic being the cooler valk is always piloted by the aces (whose opinion matters more then the average ppl) who are worth the extra expense. (eg fast packs only given out to the best pilots in the tv series at first before being standard)

This is not accurate. The FAST Pack was used only once in the TV series before it became standard issue for all pilots. Even then, it wasn't given to the best pilot (with Max around, Hikaru definitely isn't the best). In the very next two episodes, Hikaru fights without the FAST packs, like everyone else. In fact, the next time we see the FAST Packs, every regular pilot (300-odd Super Valkyries) has them.

The funny thing is that Mylene being the daughter of milia automatically has naturally-good piloting ability despite no experience. I would think if you could just bring back cloning and take the best stock and make them your super soldiers you would have a kick ass valk delta assasin team. Fold in, take out important targets with the elite forces, then haul ass before the main forces get there to take care of the rest. With special mind conditioning and drugs to accept the BCS and get used to it, this would be better than sending stupid ai controlled robots which aren't sensitive to all situations and tactics that would need a human. (ai is only as smart as the programmer makes it. The AI might be too trigger happy and give position away too early, or be too predictable for example)

Let's see ... what would happen if a civilization in Macross engineered super soldiers to fight its proxy wars for it. They can use all the advanced technology like cloning, mind conditioning, and medical stimulus. They would be trained in situational tactics so they could respond better than AI. In fact, let's take the best stock and make them elite forces that can fold in and out at will.

We just need a name for these super soldiers ... what's a good name ... how about Zentradi? And for the elite forces ... how about the Supervision Army? Now, what can possibly go wrong with this PROTOtypical CULTURE having an army of mind-controlled superhuman clones and elite forces?

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

The problem arises when technical specs are used to back up which mecha is "cooler." Then you have to be careful when these specs are either misquoted, taken out of context, or completely ignored just because a group of fans doesn't like them. After all, if someone says, "IMHO, this is what the specs should have been," what's to stop another fan from inventing his/her own specs to counter that?

For example, some here say the VF-22S would be just as fast and maneuverable as the VF-19S "if only" it got VF-19S's engines and verniers. If that can happen, why can't the VF-19S be just as weapon-loaded as the VF-22S "if only" it got VF-22S's weapons?

Nobody said it couldn't. But it would be getting two times as many improvements as the 22s series one time improvment. (think of the loss of BDS as -1 point of advancement) Taking what worked from one generation and using it in later generations.

The yf21 to me looked superior in macross plus when the two sides were on equal footing and the decision wasn't yet made on which was superior. The 19 won the competition because it got the chance to kill sharon apple, (remember the ghost looked like it was going to beat both of them until guld killed it) and so most of the money went to the winner which enabled more chances to continue the research.

To rub salt in the wound then what happened was the stuff that was cool was taken out, like the BCS so you can think of it in some areas as a bit of a maneuverability/tech downgrade, while the 19 got upgrades (like head turret with extra guns whereas the 22 had a minimal change in head etc)

I would think being able to control a giant robot as if the machine was a part of your own body would have to count for something right? If there was a new space war and the enemy took advantage of technologies and spent twice as much as UN SPACY on weapons development and research do you think they would downgrade thier stuff? Maybe like the kamikaze pilots these alien pilots wouldn't care about safety and like stuntmen, be honored to take these daring risks without the need for limits placed on them because it meant by doing this, they could achieve more. They might not survive, but life might be cheap to them. (think of terrorist bombers who are willing to kill a greater number of enemies at the expense of thier own life. It might be a numbers game for the losing side who is more desperate to sacrifice themselves just to let the winning side know they ain't budging.)

The what-if game goes two ways -- if the VF-22S can get an improved BCS and variable wing cross-section technology, what's to stop the VF-19S from getting them as well -- in other words, getting the "enhancements that the VF-22 got that the -19 series didn't"?

the same thing that stopped the 22 from getting mass production BCS or the ghost from having a super duper intelligent ai that made it "superior" (in the mind of un spacy) to either fighter. Too dangerous/finite resources/not enough chances given to fix probs.

The story depends factors such as:

-skill of the pilots (isamu's own skill counts for the survivability of 19 as much as yang's design)

-what circumstances led to the loss of comp. (the superior one didn't win)

-how much money can the government throw into further development. (the more advanced fighter may have been more expensive but the value you get from those features may outweigh thier expense.

-what is cooler to have as an event that is interesting to an audience. (would the audience have liked it if isamu was the one to die? Maybe it's like the movie "rocky"? Where the underdog somehow manages the impossible? Or rambo where the guy can dodge anything and run into a fight with guns blazing and not die?

-politics: less loss of life with drone fighters meaning people are more comfortable with the idea of going to war if it can lessen casualties.

But the "what if" game can have limits within reason. Given that the BCS started on the yf21 first, it might have been more convenient to let general galaxy be the one to advance it since they would be ahead of thier competitor in this field of research. In the real world companies can protect thier secrets and keep thier competitors guessing to ensure they stay at the top in an area they specialise in. My reasoning for that has to do with the idea that in DYRL the zentradi had people's brain wired to giant spaceships so maybe they had more understanding in this field than humans?

Perhaps the best solution is not play this "what-if" game at all, and just stick with the established statistics. That way, we don't get this escalating cat-and-mouse game that has little to do with the actual Macross story.

Maybe, but wouldn't you like to know what machine would win if two equally skilled pilots, two different companies with different designs and diferent weapon choices would win in a match? Just because the supernova project wasn't won by the superior machine ("superior" doesn't just mean it can move slightly faster in fighter) in the story, doesn't mean we can assume UN SPACY makes the best wisest choices. Remember they were going to replace humans with True AI and humans still kicked the AI's ass. The stats probably say that humans are inferior based on having slower decision-making ability than a computer or have slower reflexs than drones, right? But what about other things like determination to do better that robots lack, our creativity(making songs), the willingness to kill yourself just to protect somebody; things the drones and AI don't have? What does that tell you about UN SPACY?

Maybe they just settled with the less cool machine just because they felt at the time it was reliable and "good enough" for thier needs? (even though they could do better.)

In short, once again, the VF-19S got the faster engine and more maneuverable verniers because it matched and earned the UN main fighter role, while the VF-22S got the more massive payload because it matched and earned the UN special ops fighter role. Neither is better in all areas than the other. Each has its own unique mission roles. Which is exactly the way different but complementary weapons are used in effective real-life militaries.

I know but....certain bits might be seen as a downgrade meaning the comparison doesn't feel fair due to the idea that one is favoured over another by UN SPACY or the creator who made more changes to 19 to even it out. heh Which is why I value cool features as well as manueverability and speed and take these into consideration in a VS match. If max/milia could make use of the BCS/BDI without any penalty to his/her sanity, he/she would be better in performance than if he didn't have it is all I'm saying. In a war you'd want as much of an edge over your enemy as possible. The humans didn't stand a chance against the zentradi in Space War I and they almost got wiped out. If they had unlimited funds every pilot would be getting VF1S instead of having to earn it by starting out on 1As.

But the elite always get the best stuff so I'm leaving possibilities open to the idea that if more money was spent to improve the existing designs (and fix glitches) so that they became mass production valks, the performance gains would be worth those extra costs and custom upgrades. Which is why I said that the elite would be better with upgraded 22s + BCS/BDI + speed to match 19 + increased power, in the future. Sure its not canon, but its a reasonable what-if, given the trends of the past and the idea that people will upgrade things and leapfrog each other to stay competitive. (mobile phone, cameras, cars, personal computers)

Otherwise why give more-important people the Glaug instead of a Regult? Because those advancements make it worth it and the better pilots are able to max out the limits of the standard machines. By giving them a better one they can push thier performance to greater levels in combat even more. But if the important ones got standard machines, they might feel hamstrung in what they can do based on the limit of the tools given. The way I see it, if you downgrade the tool, (take out BCS, deny matching features that are easy to add) you are limiting what the best pilot can do with the machine. yf21 gets downgrades, 19 gets several enhancements = unfair. Given that the 21 almost matches speed of 19 I still would have chosen the 21 based on cooler design and its features. There was enough speed in the 21 that could kill the pilot and take out a ghost so at some point that stat becomes less relevant in the grand scheme of things. The Qrau maneuvering in battroid mode might factor into combat too. I'd think a an average skilled pilot might do well against an expert in an older machine given tech upgrade in this area.

This is not accurate. The FAST Pack was used only once in the TV series before it became standard issue for all pilots. Even then, it wasn't given to the best pilot (with Max around, Hikaru definitely isn't the best). In the very next two episodes, Hikaru fights without the FAST packs, like everyone else. In fact, the next time we see the FAST Packs, every regular pilot (300-odd Super Valkyries) has them.

The FAST pack analogy is just to show that the upgrade; not being standard yet, was handed to those who could best make use of the upgrade (the leaders and aces) given that they were not common use by all at the time. That upgrade is just a way of saying: here is something that will increase the general performance of the valk. The people who get to use them first are the experienced pilots from what I remember. Hikaru, Max and Milia make use of the fast packs. They are standard in DYRL for space, but in the tv show they are seen to enhance the ability of the valks (making a valk into a super valkyrie) who would normally fight without these in space for a majority of the time. So I see them as a "performance upgrade" in the tv series as opposed to being standard use by everyone right from the begining like in the movie.

Edited May 17, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Briareos9]

Perhaps the best solution is not play this "what-if" game at all, and just stick with the established statistics. That way, we don't get this escalating cat-and-mouse game that has little to do with the actual Macross story.

Okay then why shouldn't the VF-19 advocates shut up about their FSW, canards, overflow units and how great they are seems as how canonically the VF-19F/S doesn't have them and the YF-19 that did was matched maneuver for maneuver throughout Macross Plus. Afterall other then projecting speculation onto it, how do you know? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Also people need to remember, Movie wise at least, Guld literally ejected all limbs, had all of one gunpod left and switched it so he was doing max burn in atmosphere which he normally would not have done as it melts down the core. Of course, once he did the X-9 was burning up as his fighter was, and he still defeated it. Given the way it was burning up I got the distinct impression it also went into max overdrive disregarding safety limits as Guld did. He was keeping up with it reasonably well before doing so as well.

As for the brawl: The YF-19 by the end of the brawl, had its head cannon destroyed, its FAST packs all destroyed, had went through 3 magazines, and apparently was out of missiles. The YF-21 had lost a hand while having a gunpod knocked away when getting close after driving Isamu to ground, and its left arm fuel FAST pack taken out but still had enough missiles left for a truly impressive swarm. Clearly the result wasn’t in the YF-19’s favor.

If we're going to rehash it let's keep what happened straight, no?

[Final Vegeta]

The problem arises when technical specs are used to back up which mecha is "cooler."

Real Politik, at the end the only thing that matters is power Western powers conquered most of the world and called their force civilization; Western medicine was a science while acupunture was not, Westerners had gods while losing cultures worshipped demons, spirits and tribal idols. Even for a mecha the most important thing is to win. Few dare to associate themselves with signs of weakness.

FV

[azrael]

Okay then why shouldn't the VF-19 advocates shut up about their FSW, canards, overflow units and how great they are seems as how canonically...

Wooo there partner. Calm down. Just because you think the VF-22 got short changed (which it didn't) doesn't mean you should go around, whining and bitching about it all throughout this thread. Egan is just relaying what has been said by the creators who wrote those specs. He's not advocating things, he's just telling us what the creators have said to him.

In short, once again, the VF-19S got the faster engine and more maneuverable verniers because it matched and earned the UN main fighter role, while the VF-22S got the more massive payload because it matched and earned the UN special ops fighter role. Neither is better in all areas than the other. Each has its own unique mission roles. Which is exactly the way different but complementary weapons are used in effective real-life militaries.

What Egan said is true. The VF-19S is geared more toward being a main fighter. A "Jack-of-all-trades/Master-to-none" fighter. This is a perfect successor to the VF-11. The VF-22S matches the attributes of the VF-17 (stealth, payload, etc) so why should it not be the successor for the UN Spec Ops.

[Briareos9]

Okay then why shouldn't the VF-19 advocates shut up about their FSW, canards, overflow units and how great they are seems as how canonically...

Wooo there partner. Calm down. Just because you think the VF-22 got short changed (which it didn't) doesn't mean you should go around, whining and bitching about it all throughout this thread. Egan is just relaying what has been said by the creators who wrote those specs. He's not advocating things, he's just telling us what the creators have said to him.

Can't resist trying a sniping ad hominem can you? Whining, bitching? Where? I point out same boost would actually make it top the VF-19S in thrust to mass and we get this kind of slander? Fine I messed up on the manufacturers. I wasn't the only one to screw up though:

After all, why does the VF-17 have the old faceted passive stealth design when Earth not only developed computer-aided curved-surface passive stealth design before VFs, but also curved-surface passive stealth designs in VFs predating the VF-17?

If you actually look at the VF-17 you'll note it's no more faceted then a B-2.

The "messing with the arms" upgrade occurred in the YF-19's development stage. By the time the VF-19, they had settled on one type of weapon to install there.

In relation to modifications on the YF-21 to VF-22, where I said messing with the arms wasn't indicated.

If one thinks that the VF-19S is "fatally flawed" since it only has internal missile capacity in two sections, than one must also think that the original VF-1, VF-4, VF-11, and several other designs are "fatally flawed" since they only have internal missile capacity in two areas (or none at all). When these general-purpose variable fighters need more missiles, they simply mount on FAST Packs or external missiles.

Another distortion in response to a comment about FAST packs not interfering the internal weapon bays, to which I commented if they did it'd be a fatal flawed as that's the only place it carries other missiles.

I could go on here.

I went after you for indicating the VF-19 was a better bomb truck, and basically got dragged into this. Do both of you just enjoy warping other people's words to try to make you look good? In my experience that only makes you look worse, azrael I'd suggest you discontinue using such tactics. I'm not exactly impressed with Mr. Loo's sense of professionalism here, which made me doubt it was him as opposed to someone else just using the screen name.

You can't change the visual material to fit what you want it to be, bud. The VF-19 advocates have carried on about the how great their canards and FSWs made them in comparison previous discussions, at worst this amounts to payback although not in intention. As per usual the ventral fins, tail stabilizers, and 3-D vectoring which were the major components we saw in use for maneuvering just get ignored. How many times could you spot those variable camber wings in use, and how many maneuvers, like the massed missile dodge, did we see where the wings were basically just locked? Plus ignoring the VF-22 strong points like survivability and redundancy, so you can pump it up on the VF-19.

Plus let's not forget Guld was a company test pilot, Lieutenant Isamu was a blooded combat veteran flying ace. Little combat expierence difference there.

Now if you were being honest with yourselves what you'd be doing was playing up the VF-19 series' lower mass, and extrapolating from there the desire for lighter with as powerful engines as possible that's sufficient for the role.

Edited May 17, 2005 by Briareos9

[Agent ONE]

They are both ok, neither does much for me though.

[NoSuchFile]

The YF-19 and the VF-19A looked better than the 21-22, but the later versions of the 19 really suck, and the 22 looks more cool with the visor.

[EganLoo]

After all, why does the VF-17 have the old faceted passive stealth design when Earth not only developed computer-aided curved-surface passive stealth design before VFs, but also curved-surface passive stealth designs in VFs predating the VF-17?

If you actually look at the VF-17 you'll note it's no more faceted then a B-2.

The VF-17 is more faceted than the more curved-surface B-2. That is why the VF-17 is specifically described as having a "extremely multi-faceted stealth structure" in This is Animation Special Macross Plus book. That is also why Shoji Kawamori notes the complete difference in external lines between the B-2 and the F-117 after describing how the F-117 influenced the VF-17 in his interview in the Shoji Kawamori Macross Design Works book.

If one thinks that the VF-19S is "fatally flawed" since it only has internal missile capacity in two sections, than one must also think that the original VF-1, VF-4, VF-11, and several other designs are "fatally flawed" since they only have internal missile capacity in two areas (or none at all). When these general-purpose variable fighters need more missiles, they simply mount on FAST Packs or external missiles.

Another distortion in response to a comment about FAST packs not interfering the internal weapon bays, to which I commented if they did it'd be a fatal flawed as that's the only place it carries other missiles.

I see what you mean in that the VF-19S was not fatally flawed in this regard then. You can chalk this up to miscommunication and not a deliberate distortion.

I'm not exactly impressed with Mr. Loo's sense of professionalism here, which made me doubt it was him as opposed to someone else just using the screen name.   

If you are referring to the two misunderstanding of your words in this rather long discussion, you have my assurance that they were not malicious attacks. I do my best to be gentlemanly and yet have a sense of humor, so please point out where you think that hasn't been the case.

Now if you were being honest with yourselves what you'd be doing was playing up the VF-19 series' lower mass, and extrapolating from there the desire for lighter with as powerful engines as possible that's sufficient for the role.

In the creators' notes as to why the YF-19 won Project Supernova and the YF-21 became the VF-22S special operations fighter, the YF-19's speed and maneuverability and the VF-22S's mass are cited.

Edited May 17, 2005 by EganLoo

[armentage]

If I remember correctly, the Guld himself was the leader of the YF-21 development team. So with his death, you could assume the project was automatically canceled... regardless of which design was superior. Without the lead designer, the 21 couldn't be finished in time.

Though, one has to wonder, does Blondie Genius-Boy get caught for hacking Sharon (after the events in Plus)? Maybe the 19 ended needing a new lead designer too!

[EganLoo]

Perhaps the best solution is not play this "what-if" game at all, and just stick with the established statistics. That way, we don't get this escalating cat-and-mouse game that has little to do with the actual Macross story.

Okay then why shouldn't the VF-19 advocates shut up about their FSW, canards, overflow units and how great they are seems as how canonically the VF-19F/S doesn't have them and the YF-19 that did was matched maneuver for maneuver throughout Macross Plus. Afterall other then projecting speculation onto it, how do you know? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Since the FSW and canards were only mentioned twice to advocate the VF-19 series (as opposed to the VF-19F/S specifically) in this thread, I gather this is an ongoing dispute that extends beyond this thread. However, the active control units are on the VF-19S/P series. They and the added high-maneuver verniers are specifically cited as to why canards were replaced. In fact, in one instance, they are no longer called "airflow" control units and are used in atmosphere as well as in space.

[azrael]

Can't resist trying a sniping ad hominem can you? Whining, bitching? Where?

What whining?

My original contention was it was the Shinsei exclusive engines that gave the VF-19 its main advantage I think we’ve established this, with only the addition of the VF-22S not getting the newest verniers either. In addition they moved the gunpods from external mounts to internal mounts. Sounds to me like some creator person was working hard to hold it back how about you?

Okay then why shouldn't the VF-19 advocates shut up about their FSW, canards, overflow units and how great they are seems as how canonically the VF-19F/S doesn't have them and the YF-19 that did was matched maneuver for maneuver throughout Macross Plus. Afterall other then projecting speculation onto it, how do you know? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

That whining. Then there's all that business of if only the VF-22 had this or that from the VF-19, blah blah blah, whatever that was...

I'm not exactly impressed with Mr. Loo's sense of professionalism here, which made me doubt it was him as opposed to someone else just using the screen name.

If you are referring to the two misunderstanding of your words in this rather long discussion, you have my assurance that they were not malicious attacks. I do my best to be gentlemanly and yet have a sense of humor, so please point out where you think that hasn't been the case.

He's also like this at conventions.

Do both of you just enjoy warping other people's words to try to make you look good? In my experience that only makes you look worse, azrael I'd suggest you discontinue using such tactics.

Did I run over your cat/dog/hamster/goldfish/<insert favorite pet here>? I don't think I've ever done that or used any such tactics... I've mistaken people on the forum for not being sarcastic when they were. And if I've mistake your post's intention, then I'm sorry.

Edited May 17, 2005 by azrael

[EganLoo]

If I remember correctly, the Guld himself was the leader of the YF-21 development team.  So with his death, you could assume the project was automatically canceled... regardless of which design was superior.  Without the lead designer, the 21 couldn't be finished in time.

Although YF-21 didn't win Project Supernova, it wasn't because of losing its lead designer or losing all its prototypes. Guld was one of the designers, but the head of the design team was actually General Galaxy's Algus Selzer. There were also two YF-21 prototypes for backup (just like in real-life design competitions).

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Though, one has to wonder, does Blondie Genius-Boy get caught for hacking Sharon (after the events in Plus)? Maybe the 19 ended needing a new lead designer too!

He probably got a job making virtual reality sharon apple hentai that seduces the battroid pilots when they are bored and have nothing to do. Don't you guys find it a bit funny how he was made to "ejected" (ejaculated jk) after the VR sharon really flirted with him? After landing in the ocean somewhere he probably cooled off and the hypnotism broke but after that experience he was never the same person and decided he would change professions and focus on Holographic VR pron. Sexually-repressed zentradi males who were having trouble finding women and keeping them were his main clients and he became rich.

Edited May 17, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Briareos9]

Rushing, but:

he VF-17 is more faceted than the more curved-surface B-2. That is why the VF-17 is specifically described as having a "extremely multi-faceted stealth structure" in This is Animation Special Macross Plus book. That is also why Shoji Kawamori notes the complete difference in external lines between the B-2 and the F-117 after describing how the F-117 influenced the VF-17 in his interview in the Shoji Kawamori Macross Design Works book.

F-117

VF-17

The faceting generation you're talking about is all flat angles, on the VF-17 the flat angles don't seem to have anything to do with the stealth, look at it's nose. The B-2 stealth generation allows it to be more smooth like the VF-17's nose in fact is. No dice.

[EganLoo]

Rushing, but:

he VF-17 is more faceted than the more curved-surface B-2. That is why the VF-17 is specifically described as having a "extremely multi-faceted stealth structure" in This is Animation Special Macross Plus book. That is also why Shoji Kawamori notes the complete difference in external lines between the B-2 and the F-117 after describing how the F-117 influenced the VF-17 in his interview in the Shoji Kawamori Macross Design Works book.

F-117

VF-17

The faceting generation you're talking about is all flat angles, on the VF-17 the flat angles don't seem to have anything to do with the stealth, look at it's nose. The B-2 stealth generation allows it to be more smooth like the VF-17's nose in fact is. No dice.

This is Animation Special Macross Plus

p. 74

VF-17 Nightmare

"Gaikei wa kyokutan na tamen tai suterusu kousei o totte ori,"

"Externally, it possesses an extremely multifaceted stealth structure"

This is Animation Macross 7 TV Animation Materials

p. 140

Interview with Kawamori Shoji

"VF-17 wa Beigun no F-117 o be-su toshite, chokusen teki na rain de matomete arimasu."

"As the VF-17 is based on the US Armed Forces' F-117, it is composed of straight lines."

[Briareos9]

Okay, mister Loo I take it back, I just wish we didn't have so many misunderstandings in my discussion. I'm glad that's all they amounted to, sorry for the other, but I felt it was getting a little to unlikely in the screw ups like the 21 to 19 business. I've made what points I wanted to make already though. Really except for finishing up response comments I was done when you did the "dd" thing.

Can't resist trying a sniping ad hominem can you? Whining, bitching? Where?

What whining?

My original contention was it was the Shinsei exclusive engines that gave the VF-19 its main advantage I think we’ve established this, with only the addition of the VF-22S not getting the newest verniers either. In addition they moved the gunpods from external mounts to internal mounts. Sounds to me like some creator person was working hard to hold it back how about you?

Okay then why shouldn't the VF-19 advocates shut up about their FSW, canards, overflow units and how great they are seems as how canonically the VF-19F/S doesn't have them and the YF-19 that did was matched maneuver for maneuver throughout Macross Plus. Afterall other then projecting speculation onto it, how do you know? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

That whining. Then there's all that business of if only the VF-22 had this or that from the VF-19, blah blah blah, whatever that was...

Uh-huh, short: how dare he note it did that major engine jump and comment on it. Oh gee it's him going fan-boy all over the VF-22? Then noting that they both had HMM-6Js and the VF-19 went to HMM-7s. I called it, you didn't need to do it again. Then I point out if we're going to cut down on that speculation on what might of been the other which doesn't have to do with the mainline fighter under discussion anyway should go. Uh-huh, whining, riiiight. Please just tell me you weren't paying good attention and messed up so we can get on with our lives.

I did the OP and with what question, azrael? Come on read it. You really think I was going fan boy on the VF-22, or just trying to point some things out?

[JB0]

-take out bcs so the 19 could compete.

-making it almost lose in a hand to hand combat in macross plus when the machine has arm guns, and two shields built-in + 2 gunpods whereas the 19 only has 1 gunpod (with clips I might add) and 1 sheild. doh! (what was guld thinking? He could have mowed that 19 down with both gunpods held at the same time)

As noted above, the YF-19's shield is anti-projectile while the YF-21's shields aren't described as such--after all, they're repurposed stabilizers. The YF-19 also has two wing cannons which can be rotated freely about in Battroid mode. (Think of them as shoot-from-the-hip rifles.)

I'd like to point out that the YF-19's shield being more useful without a PPB is partially offset by the YF-21's BDI/BCS.

It's easier for the YF-21 to dodge fire(especially from a known enemy with a detailed database entry), because Guld has computer forecasts of probable fire areas.

And if he dodges wrong, it's a lot easier and faster to relocate a PPB disk with BCS than with conventional controls(even taking into account that the disks may have a maximum movement rate, you don't have to release control of something else, and have a more accurate idea of where to place the disk).

Not knowing how fast they come up when the system is activated, I can't guess at how that ties into things(may be able to leave the system off until the instant you need the barrier disk, but I wouldn't bet on it).

[JLYC]

everytime i see macross plus....i think vf-21 is a better plane mechanically. however aesthetically vf-19 is the winner.

from the fight between guld and isamu...there was no winner and no loser and the ghost disrupted the fight. vf-19 defeating sharon didnt really say much- isamu just dodged a bunch of bullets and crashed into the mainframe. i have no doubt the vf-21 can do the same.

now the fight with the ghost...that's a different story. somehow i doubt vf-19 would be able to beat the ghost.

then again we're really pitting 2 very different planes piloted by 2 very different pilots. in reality the UN would be choosing the MACHINE and not the pilot, so the human variability will have to be taken into account.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

in reality the UN would be choosing the MACHINE and not the pilot, so the human variability will have to be taken into account.

That's why I'm saying if they'd created thier own delta team with elite abilities (think of the newtypes in gundam) and gave them the BCS it would be more effective for special operations where a drone might be a little clumsy and thoughtless in how it achieves a mission deep behind enemy lines where it might risk detection and screw up the mission. (the scene with the vf1 being taken hostage comes to mind) I can imagine a small elite group of low flying yf21 who attack at night and strike suddenly as opposed to being a mass producted main fighter for everyone.

Maybe if Guld was in the yf19 (are his skills the same as dyson's?) all the fancy flying (the drawing of the dinobird in the sky) may not have been possible and given the less skilled ability of the pilot, they may not have won.

I think once shinsei won, there was no incentive by general galaxy to advance as much since they needed money to do so to get a return on thier hard work and time they invested in it. Perhaps the guys lost thier jobs and went into another business and that's why the vf22 is a generation behind using the older stuff? (slower speed than the vf19s. Not as many refinements and advancemencts from the original and being 1 gen behind from the vf19s)

Edited May 18, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[azrael]

h-huh, short: how dare he note it did that major engine jump and comment on it. Oh gee it's him going fan-boy all over the VF-22? Then noting that they both had HMM-6Js and the VF-19 went to HMM-7s. I called it, you didn't need to do it again. Then I point out if we're going to cut down on that speculation on what might of been the other which doesn't have to do with the mainline fighter under discussion anyway should go. Uh-huh, whining, riiiight. Please just tell me you weren't paying good attention and messed up so we can get on with our lives.

I did the OP and with what question, azrael? Come on read it. You really think I was going fan boy on the VF-22, or just trying to point some things out?

You were the one who asked why can't the VF-22 have this or that which Egan has noted from the creators is not possible and then continued it. And then you go on to tell "VF-19 advocates" to shut-up about things that were removed (however, FSWs were not removed so that's wrong). Of course, you keep jumping from YF to VF so I can't tell what you're talking about since you wanted this to be a VF to VF comparison. But if you don't think it's whining/fanboy-ism, then it's not.

It's easier for the YF-21 to dodge fire(especially from a known enemy with a detailed database entry), because Guld has computer forecasts of probable fire areas.

I think the key there is if it is a known type. Otherwise, it's hit the decoys, run like hell and/or switch modes and pray you can shot it down.

That's why I'm saying if they'd created thier own delta team with elite abilities (think of the newtypes in gundam) and gave them the BCS it would be more effective for special operations where a drone might be a little clumsy and thoughtless in how it achieves a mission deep behind enemy lines where it might risk detection and screw up the mission.

The problem there is that you become dependent on that group. In a tight spot, you need backups, and reliable ones. If you've watch Aquarion (or even Evangelion), the concept of your idea comes up. A select group of individuals controlling devices. If one person goes down, the reserve pool is much smaller to choose from whereas if you were to not implement such a system, the reserve pool becomes larger and more diverse. Over-specalize and you breed weakness. So you can only implement the idea so far as they don't create problems.

[armentage]

I dunno about the Ghost thing.... I'm imagining the 19 or 21 finding a way to grab onto the Ghost, and punch through its armor and rip out its guts...

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

If one person goes down, the reserve pool is much smaller to choose from whereas if you were to not implement such a system, the reserve pool becomes larger and more diverse. Over-specalize and you breed weakness. So you can only implement the idea so far as they don't create problems.

huh? But cloning mylene would work well enough. (the zentradi themselves are just giant clones from alien genetic engineering aren't they?) After the holocaust when the population shrunk they used cloning to solve people shortages.

She has natural piloting ability, no formal training and yet she holds her own with the other band members which i thought was funny and unrealistic.

I suppose because she has max and milia's genes, we must automatically accept that pilot skills automatically get transferred?

But going by this idea, (and how she learns quick - sorta newtypish in a way) why can't un spacy just do what the zentradi did and start a secret program involving breeding and then cloning the best stock, putting them through a harsh training program to become elite soldiers (they can do this in masses like the clone soldiers in star wars episode II ) and finally condition them to gradually accept the BCS in simulations?

By the time they come out with these secret "super soldiers" used for special operations, (UN spacy can just deny the existance of this group to the public like they hid the exisitance of the vf1 information, or the events that took place in macross zero) they will have solved the problem of the stupidness of AI, and given human pilots thier jobs back, as well as boosted the skills of thier elite soldiers. (much more accuracy, faster reflexes, ability to take in more information at any time, more intuitive use of the valkyrie etc which will increase the rate of mission success thanks to vf22 given the works.)

You can still have your regular soldiers, but use the elite ones for the special operations requiring sensitivity (like the "vf1 taken hostage" situation for example) and use ghosts for easy tasks like defense of areas. By holding back on cool features, they only weaken themselves because in the future if an alien race fights against them they may not hold back since thier sense of fairness is different (ie no regard for thier own safety; all happy to volunteer on suicide kamikaze missions) or they just might plain outnumber the humans again in people and resources like how the zentradi did in SW I.

Anyway I just get the feeling that vf22 is a held-back yf21, and in some ways a downgrade. Whatever upgrades it did have were not as many as the upgrades that the 19 series got and so that is why I believe they wouldn't be on equal footing due to holding the potential back of the genral galaxy design and for funding reasons. (only 1 can win the comp and get the go-ahead after all. The losers will get less chances to keep refining and improving thier design if theres no one to sell to and if the government can't afford the more expensive stuff)

Edited May 18, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Briareos9]

h-huh, short: how dare he note it did that major engine jump and comment on it. Oh gee it's him going fan-boy all over the VF-22? Then noting that they both had HMM-6Js and the VF-19 went to HMM-7s. I called it, you didn't need to do it again. Then I point out if we're going to cut down on that speculation on what might of been the other which doesn't have to do with the mainline fighter under discussion anyway should go. Uh-huh, whining, riiiight. Please just tell me you weren't paying good attention and messed up so we can get on with our lives.

I did the OP and with what question, azrael? Come on read it. You really think I was going fan boy on the VF-22, or just trying to point some things out?

You were the one who asked why can't the VF-22 have this or that which Egan has noted from the creators is not possible and then continued it. And then you go on to tell "VF-19 advocates" to shut-up about things that were removed (however, FSWs were not removed so that's wrong). Of course, you keep jumping from YF to VF so I can't tell what you're talking about since you wanted this to be a VF to VF comparison. But if you don't think it's whining/fanboy-ism, then it's not.

This is quite funny, spinster.

Whether or not VF-22S can even be equipped with engines as powerful as the VF-19S's is speculation, and decidedly not certainty. Notice that the VF-22S has less space allotted for engine pods due to its unique configuration and VTOL "slits." Unlike most variable fighters, the VF-22S's engine pods actually have to contract for GERWALK and Battroid modes.

I did make the point about the engine pods' size though, since it was Shoji Kawamori made that point. He notes that unlike previous variable fighters, the engine pods of the YF-21 and VF-22S has to physically contract to transform between modes, so he had to design Venetian-blind-like slits (which also double as VTOL hovering nozzles) to accommodate. One can speculate and hypothesize that the VF-22S can eventually accommodate more powerful engines, but it would be just that--speculation.

No he said the engine pod space was different and my commentary was in response to when he brought it up, seems as how it has to do things like bend in the middle . You will note the order of posts. After his response it was more noting the consequences of a lot of the other modifications. He wasn't clearly saying one way or the other on the verniers even afterwards, either. What he did say related to the contract and resultant optimization, not physical limitations. I said it from the start, this is only making you look worse azrael, which is why I advised you cease and desist.

[azrael]

After the holocaust when the population shrunk they used cloning to solve people shortages.

Yet they stopped it 20 years later because they found out they were increasing hereditary diseases.

She has natural piloting ability, no formal training and yet she holds her own with the other band members which i thought was funny and unrealistic.

I suppose because she has max and milia's genes, we must automatically accept that pilot skills automatically get transferred?

That's iffy. We start getting into genetic traits and social learning (Mylene could have been a good pilot from hanging around mom and dad a lot, so it get's iffy).

You can still have your regular soldiers, but use the elite ones for the special operations requiring sensitivity (like the "vf1 taken hostage" situation for example) and use ghosts for easy tasks like defense of areas. By holding back on cool features, they only weaken themselves because in the future if an alien race fights against them they may not hold back since thier sense of fairness is different (ie no regard for thier own safety; all happy to volunteer on suicide kamikaze missions) or they just might plain outnumber the humans again in people and resources like how the zentradi did in SW I.

What I was getting at was, you can have your special groups and all but you don't want to over specialize them. But you don't want to hold them back too much either. The tricky thing is finding that middle spot where you can still do general functions and specialize functions without one being a burden to the other.

... I believe they wouldn't be on equal footing due to holding the potential back of the genral galaxy design and for funding reasons. (only 1 can win the comp and get the go-ahead after all. The losers will get less chances to keep refining and improving thier design if theres no one to sell to and if the government can't afford the more expensive stuff)

Well that's politics for ya. I won't go into that.

[azrael]

No he said the engine pod space was different and my commentary was in response to when he brought it up, seems as how it has to do things like bend in the middle . You will note the order of posts. After his response it was more noting the consequences of a lot of the other modifications. He wasn't clearly saying one way or the other on the verniers even afterwards, either. What he did say related to the contract and resultant optimization, not physical limitations.  I said it from the start, this is only making you look worse azrael, which is why I advised you cease and desist.

As I said earlier, if I was mistaken about your earlier post's intention, I am very sorry if I misunderstood you and I didn't mean rub you the wrong way. But obviously I must have hit a nerve or otherwise we would not be at this point. And for that, I apologize, no offense. (This would be the 2nd time I've apologized). But since you insist on being confrontational with me, I don't know if will carry any weight. You've even implied I was lying when I thought through the internal pallets for the VF-22 were for the gunpods, 3rd internal hardpoint(s) and for the mini-missiles while you thought they were completely seperate. So why should I not had said what I have said? You can go and continue this but it's silly and detracts from the thread.

[JB0]

It's easier for the YF-21 to dodge fire(especially from a known enemy with a detailed database entry), because Guld has computer forecasts of probable fire areas.

I think the key there is if it is a known type. Otherwise, it's hit the decoys, run like hell and/or switch modes and pray you can shot it down.

The computer should be able to assemble a rough profile from observed actions in the field. Not as good as a pre-programmed one with precise data, but still useful.

Without the profile you're reduced to... what a conventional pilot has, only you still have the BDI's more extensive and intuitive sensor data and the BCS' superior control.

Either way, the PPB is still easier to work with a BCS. So you just snap a disk around to catch the incoming fire(and hope there's not enough kick to splash around the barrier), instead of letting go of the stick and lunging for a trackball.

...

Ah, heck. Only way a fighter-mounted PPB is really viable IMO is with automated barrier tracking anyways. Never mind.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Ah, heck. Only way a fighter-mounted PPB is really viable IMO is with automated barrier tracking anyways. Never mind.

Not if you have force powers or magick which Sara and Mao started to have. Remember they may be the descendants of PC, an advanced lemurian/atlantean civilisation that may have awakened dormant powers of the mind and passed this knowledge to the select few in a sacred bloodline who would use it wisely and not abuse it.

You can just use the force to read where the shots will hit, and instead of using your hand to move the controls, just push it with your mind. Now ppl, don't forget that shin managed to do this of his own power when he levitated the vf0 of his own power so I'm not making this one up.

Roy knew it, he was there at the time but probably couldn't say anything or he'd be killed. The government needed to cover up the event to avoid panic just like they did about the aliens at first. No wonder they didn't know how to use the antigravity generators. Who knows? Maybe even max has the newtypian gift but doesn't know it.

Edited May 19, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[JB0]

Ah, heck. Only way a fighter-mounted PPB is really viable IMO is with automated barrier tracking anyways. Never mind.

Not if you have force powers or magick which Sara and Mao started to have. Remember they may be the descendants of PC, an advanced lemurian/atlantean civilisation that may have awakened dormant powers of the mind and passed this knowledge to the select few in a sacred bloodline who would use it wisely and not abuse it.

You can just use the force to read where the shots will hit, and instead of using your hand to move the controls, just push it with your mind. Now ppl, don't forget that shin managed to do this of his own power when he levitated the vf0 of his own power so I'm not making this one up.

Oooohhh... Jedi in a VF...