Problem w/ Translating. . .

[Hurin]

In the scene in DYRL where Hikaru wakes Minmay after rescuing her, he introduces himself as:

"I...I'm Valkyrie Skull Squadron pilot, Hikaru Ichijo... 2nd Lieutenant."

In Japanese (army), Second Lieutenant is "Sho-i." I had it as Ensign because that's what "Sho-i" is in the Navy.

Now, Minmay mistakes "Sho-i" as being part of Hikaru's name, and refers to him for the rest of the scene as "Sho-i-san". . . or "Mr. 2nd Lieutenant."

I find that this loses something in translation. Because it would much harder for an English-speaker to mistake a long two-word rank as a person's name than it would be to mistake the shorter Japanese "sho-i." I just can't imagine even the dumbest pop-star not realizing that a man's name isn't "Second Lieutenant."

So. . . what to do?

1. Just tranlate it literally: "So. . . Mr. 2nd Lieutenant, do you know where we are?"

2. Leave the Japanese title "So. . . Mr. Sho-i, do you know where we are?" (but put a subtitle above it stating that Sho-i = 2nd Lieutenant)

3. Translate it semi-literally: Have Hikaru introduce himself as "2nd Lieutenant". . . but have Minmay call him "Mr. Lootenant."

I think 2 is a good idea. . . but presents techincal problems since I'll have to end the introductory subtitle earlier and put the explanation subtitle up. . . thus squeezing things a bit.

I think 3 actually preserves some of the humor. I really think that this line is in there to show that Minmay is a very naive and unworldly girl (who doesn't recognize a military rank when they hear it? Even when they aren't clear on its exact meaning?)

Right now, I'm leaning towards 2 for its accuracy. But could be convinced to do 3 if nobody thinks it will seem to lame.

Here's the entire dialogue:

M: You rescued me, didn't you?

H: I...I'm Valkyrie Skull Squadron pilot, Hikaru Ichijo...2nd Lieutenant.

M: Thank you, Mr. 2nd Lieutenant.

H: No problem at all. I'm a big fan of yours.

M: I'm pleased to meet you. Do you listen to my songs?

H: Y...yes. All the time.

M: I guess everyone is worried.

M: So, Mr. 2nd Lieutenant, do you know where we...

H: Uh...could I have your autograph please?

M: What? Oh, sure.

M: Here you are.

H: Thanks.

[Opus]

How bout this'n ?

M: You rescued me, didn't you?

H: I...I'm Valkyrie Skull Squadron pilot, Hikaru Ichijo...2nd Lieu...

M: Thank you, Mr. Lou

H: No problem at all. I'm a big fan of yours.

M: I'm pleased to meet you. Do you listen to my songs?

H: Y...yes. All the time.

M: I guess everyone is worried.

M: So, Mr. Lou, do you know where we...

[Hurin]

How bout this'n ?

M: You rescued me, didn't you?

H: I...I'm Valkyrie Skull Squadron pilot, Hikaru Ichijo...2nd Lieu...

M: Thank you, Mr. Lou

H: No problem at all. I'm a big fan of yours.

M: I'm pleased to meet you. Do you listen to my songs?

H: Y...yes. All the time.

M: I guess everyone is worried.

M: So, Mr. Lou, do you know where we...

That would be perfect. . . except she doesn't really interrupt him. He finishes his sentence and there's a pause!

Darn, I would have liked to have used that!

[Mechamaniac]

I think, times being what they are onboard the Macross, that Minmay would be very used to interacting with members of the Spacy.

and therefore, I think she would refer to him simply as "Lieutenant"

[Wheels]

Yes, I find version 3 would be the best one. IMO it would preserve the humor from the "lost in translation" to having an English flare.

"Mr. Lootenant" works for me, as I can see a girl saying that as just to tease a guy.

To me, Hikaru misidentifies himself. And Minmei being a flirt herself, would pick up on that and run with it.

Just my take on that scene.

Edit: spelling

Edited May 11, 2005 by Wheels

[Hurin]

I think, times being what they are onboard the Macross, that Minmay would be very used to interacting with members of the Spacy.

and therefore, I think she would refer to him simply as "Lieutenant"

Are you saying that there was no confusion on Minmay's part in the original Japanese (perhaps I'm mis-interpreting it)? Or are you advising me to just drop that confusion and have her address Hikaru as "Lieutenant" rather than "Mr. Lieutenant?"

[Keith]

Mr. 2nd Lieutenant makes the most sense. Adding your own version of the humor chanages it, and it could be just as easily construed that she's very aware of military ranks, and finds it cute to refer to him that way.

[Hurin]

Hmmm. . . Is there some very specific, customary way of introducing yourself in Japanese, that perhaps Hikaur flubbed. . . perhaps by stating his rank, name, and position in the wrong order. . . and she's just making fun of him?

H

[Wheels]

Mr. 2nd Lieutenant makes the most sense. Adding your own version of the humor chanages it, and it could be just as easily construed that she's very aware of military ranks, and finds it cute to refer to him that way.

Exactly!

Minmei's a flirt and knowledgable. She's more mature in DYRL, then being a naive girl in SDF Macross.

Of course, IMO drop the 2nd and have it just as "Mr. Lootenant".

[Wheels]

Hmmm. . . Is there some very specific, customary way of introducing yourself in Japanese, that perhaps Hikaur flubbed. . . perhaps by stating his rank, name, and position in the wrong order. . . and she's just making fun of him?

H

IMO, yes she is.

Or that's my understanding of that scene.

[LePoseur]

Minmei made no mistake, nor was she confused. In Japanese it is normal to append -san on to military ranks, especially since you are refering to the person by their rank only and not using their name. Other examples would be Shachou-san (社長さん), which would never be Mr. Boss, but just Boss in a phrase like "Could you ask your boss?" Likewise, in this case, it should be just "Lieutenant" and not "Mr. Lieutenant."

On a side note, things get really wierd when refering to bands and pop music in general, with the longer "B-Dash no mina-san" （B-Dashの皆さん） sometimes shortened to just B-Dash-san.

Edited May 11, 2005 by LePoseur

[Hurin]

LePoseur, great news! That really makes it easier.

Thanks!

H

[wolfx]

Le Poseur is right. Minmei made no mistake.

Sho-i-san is an informal way of calling Hikaru "Lieautenant", compared to just calling him plain formal Sho-I. But to confuse matters more, -san is usually postfixed to add formality to greetings and names, but i guess you could say for the military, it does the opposite.

ie: "Good morning, Major Focker"

"Ohaiyo Gozaimasu, Focker Sho-sa "

compared to:

"Ohaiyo Gozaimasu, Focker Sho-sa-san(sempai)"

Edited May 11, 2005 by wolfx

[Mechamaniac]

Right. You see, it adds another facet depending on what you want to do.

If you are doing a literal translation from the spoken word into English, then "Mr. Lieutenant" is literal, and correct to what Minmay says.

But, if you are trying to interpolate what she says into English colloquialism, then you have to take into account that postfixes like, San, Sama, Chan, Kun etc. are basic parts of Japanese grammar that have been in place for centuries.

They are there to denote respect etc. towards the person you are speaking to. Does that mean that they are literally saying "Mr. Lieutenant" when saying Sho-i san?. No. It is engrained in the Japanese language to include those postfixes into greetings as a gesture of respect, but not really a literal translation, unless you do not know that person.

In normal civilian communications, I would more than likely refer to you as Mr. Hurin until you told me not to. But, were you a member of the military, I would definitely not call you Mr. Lieutenant, but merely, Lieutenant, or Lieutenant Hurin, as that is your rank and name.

[Graham]

Mr. 2nd Lieutenant makes the most sense. Adding your own version of the humor chanages it, and it could be just as easily construed that she's very aware of military ranks, and finds it cute to refer to him that way.

That's they way I'd see it.

Graham

[Fortress_Maximus]

Option 1.

[armentage]

Subtitles suck. I hate them. I hate having the directors frames obscrubed by stupid writing. If I wanted to read, I'd buy a book. Get a good dub or learn Japanese is what I say.

That said, I say forget the joke. It's not that important. There's 2 hours of dialog to worry about, and one little joke being omited isn't going to reduce anyone's overall enjoyment - especially since it's not a very dialog driven movie. DYRL is all about visuals, and the less pesky subtitles to get in the way the better.

So what I'm getting at is, don't pick a translation that you will have to explain with another subtitle.

Not to rant, but there's nothing I hate more than when half the screen is covered with subtitled song-lyrics, in both romaji & english, along with dialog subtitles. It just makes a mess, and I can't appreciate the actual anime anymore, because my eyes are automatically drawn towards the text. Frankly, song lyrics are usually stupid and I'm not interested.

Okay, I was definately ranting just now.

Edited May 12, 2005 by armentage

[Hurin]

Subtitles suck. I hate them. I hate having the directors frames obscrubed by stupid writing. If I wanted to read, I'd buy a book. Get a good dub or learn Japanese is what I say.

That said, I say forget the joke. It's not that important. There's 2 hours of dialog to worry about, and one little joke being omited isn't going to reduce anyone's overall enjoyment - especially since it's not a very dialog driven movie. DYRL is all about visuals, and the less pesky subtitles to get in the way the better.

So what I'm getting at is, don't pick a translation that you will have to explain with another subtitle.

Not to rant, but there's nothing I hate more than when half the screen is covered with subtitled song-lyrics, in both romaji & english, along with dialog subtitles. It just makes a mess, and I can't appreciate the actual anime anymore, because my eyes are automatically drawn towards the text. Frankly, song lyrics are usually stupid and I'm not interested.

Okay, I was definately ranting just now.

Gee dude. Thanks. I only spent roughly 300 hours on this project. I'm happy to know that you consider it completely and utterly stupid. Thanks for sharing!

a) There is no "good" dub of DYRL.

b) Most people do not have the time nor the inclination to friggin' "learn Japanese" just so they can enjoy a twenty year-old anime. Not to mention, you'd have to be fluent to just sit down and understand all the dialogue. So, five years or so of constant study? Sounds good! It's not like I have a job or a life or anything. I'd best get cracking!

c) You can turn the friggin' subtitles off.

Thanks for dropping by. . .

H

[armentage]

Actually.........

I used to subtitle episodes of TV anime for my club in college It was a dark, dark time in my past, which involved making 1 minute clips using Windows sound-recorder and listening to the same dialog over and over until I figured out what they were saying.

I'm venting because I recently watched the ADV "original" Mospeda DVDs, which have only one subtitle mode. It's been years and my Japanese (especially made-up word Sci-Fi style) is way too rusty, so I needed the subtitles to make sense of what was going on. And UGH -- sometimes more than half the screen was covered in subtitles, usually meanless song lyrics WHICH ARE REPEATED IN EVERY EPISODE... OVER AND OVER.

Sorry if I came across harsh, I'm posting from work and getting yelled at by my boss, so the stress level gets high.

Anyway, I'll stick to the only non-angry part of my comment, which is to not translate in such a way that requires another subtitle explaining what you meant, and I hope that helps.

[Bariaburu Faita]

Old school fansubber signing in. Did some stuff in the early 90`s, on an Apple IIc!

I vote for keeping it simple. just using lieutenant instead of adding Mr. or Second before it.

Adding a MISTER before the lieutenant adds a bit of a overly serious tone, it is used slighly differently than the San honoriffic in Japanese.

Keeping it in Japanese and adding addtional subtitles explaining it I am also against. Make it easy to read, trying to get a perfect translation is futile. Try to get a good overall feel for the sub job, and stay faithfull to the overall themes.

[Hurin]

Oh, did I not mention that I decided shortly after reading Le Poseur's post that I was going to just go with "Lieutenant". . . No "Mr.". . . because I'm now convinced that Minmay made no mistake and wasn't even teasing him. And "Lieutenant" translates best to common english usage.

For the record, I thought she was either making a mistake or teasing him because I blindly accepted the notes on a script somewhere online as fact. Oops.

H