Anti-Armor VF-1?

[Mr March]

I really don't think we can draw any hard conclusions from the anime. The great equalizer really is the fact that Valks are hero mecha and so we often see them winning, while destroids are nearly always piloted by extras, so they blow up a lot.

I will note that several of the Zentradi mecha are armed with "impact cannon" which sounds to me like something that shoots bullets/shells.

Also

Actually, there's a little bit more to it, namely design of the shell/penetrator. For example, the modern Abrams gun fires something that's more like a dart than a bullet. This not only reduces wind drag but also provides a greater penetration ability than, say, a bullet-shaped slug of the same mass travelling at the same speed. With bullet-shaped projectiles, the shape of the nose and the composition of the metal (use of an armor-piercing cap, for example) are also factors in the design. Some discussion can be found at

http://www.battlefield.ru/guns/defin_2.html

http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-055.htm

At some point I'd like to get some of the old Macross board wargames by Tsukuda. They might at least provide a semiofficial view of the relative abilities of the various Macross hardware, though I really don't know to what extent they were sanctioned by Big West and/or Kawamori.

I will agree that any fan analysis is based as much on opinion/interpretation as any analysis of the anime continuity or official numbers. Regardless, based on what I understand of the "rules" of the Macross universe, I'll stand by my opinion of the capabilites/limitations of Macross mecha until I'm confronted with a better and certainly simpler theory. I'm sure any debate is healthy regardless.

When discussing weapons in Macross (or any fictional universe) I'll stick to some basic assumptions to avoid introducing unknowns as much as possible. There are hundreds of factors that could be considered in an analsis of weapon effects. You'll often see me use phrases like "all other factors being equal" in an attempt to keep any debate from spiralling into discussion of minutiae. Most of the details cannot possibly be verified or explained with the limited information available for Macross Mecha. We can only guess what goes on inside the barrel of a GU-11. Lacking such information, I'll stick to the basics.

Edited April 14, 2005 by Mr March

[kanata67]

would this work? Just a pic I found in my archives of a "stampeed valk". Looks like it could take out just a little more than your typical vf

[JB0]

I'll provide some thoughts.

The basic technologies of variable fighters already make them far more advanced and combat effective than any dedicated anti-armor hardware.  Macross Zero established that the armor of a Valkyrie is as strong as any tank.  Since the 55mm GU-11 Gunpods are more than capable of penetrating the armor of Valkyries and other OT mecha like Battlepods, Powered Armor, and Destroids, every Valkyrie is anti-armor capable by default.

It's not known that zentradi used any form of defensive overtechnology.

And Valks VS destroids? Only instance I can think of is MacPlus, which was an exotic weapon to start with.

But I intend to leap to the defense of the oft-slandered destroid here anyways.

On the contrary, not only must Zentradi mecha use some form of defensive technology (what sane military would build top-tier hardware with no more protection than your average Jeep), but a Zentradi mecha was shown partially resisting fire from a GU-11 gunpod (Max vs Milia).

Mmm, forgot that sequence. I always figured Max just missed the important bits.

As for it being insane to not use defensive tech... it assumes they have it.

Remember, our barrier system completely mystified them. They were SURE the omnidirectional barrier was some sort of weapon.

While we're on the subject...

The zentradi reguld platoons seem to operate on the principle of overwhelming numbers. I'm not entirely sure it's top-tier equipment.

Let's keep the irrelevant parts to a minimum please. I'm not talking barriers, I'm talking armor and have not deviated. The point stands.

SWAG isn't in the same category?

The Cheyenne is no oddity just because it was given wheels to operat on the deck of a battleship in an anti-air role.  Nothing has been stated in official literature nor seen in the anime that suggests the Cheyenne is any less/more armored than other destroids.  All that is known without running off and creating my own set of standards is that the SV-51 destroyed a Cheyenne; a destroid.  Precedent established.

The Cheyenne is also based on a diffrent design than the Phalanx, Tomahawk, and Defender, which all share a common leg/body assembly.

And it DOES look far more lightly armored, based on the animation.

Never said Valkyries were "massively superior" to destroids.  Return to sender.

It's a commom theme.

But these 2 statements:

"Destroids have been shown as no match for a Valkyrie (even the mighty Monster), "

And

"Comparing conventional mecha of the Macross era, the Destroids have been shown as no match for a Valkyrie (even the mighty Monster), so as it stands the Valkyrie sits comfortably on top of the military hardware food chain in the Macross universe."

DO imply the valk is massively superior.

There is no precedent or established rule for the Macross universe that states beam/ballistic weapons enjoy more penetrating/destructive potential over one another.  Any attempt to say so is pure speculation.

I didn't say that. What I DID say is that they do damage diffrent ways, and that armor is built to resist the commonly-used weapon.

A society that used nothing but lasers would have mirrored armor that, while incredibly effective against lasers, would be next to worthless against a bullet.

Our own real-world bllet-proof vests do quite respectably against bullets. But can be easily penetrated by an icepick(fortunately for the wearer, they usually never get that close).

Exotic or no, the weapon remains within the realm of established Macross OT.  Until we see a GU-15 gunpod's effect on a stationary Monster, no precedent has been established for comparing magnitudes of weapon yeild.

Yes. But it's roughly like saying that "An Abrams with nukes can beat a A-10".

You argued it was an unrealistic expectation and I said it was not.  If you're not calling the theory into question, don't waste time reiterating facts you don't want to debate.  Point remains.

It's not a point, because it is completely irrelevant.

I'm not questioning the physics. Just the relevance.

In PRACTICE the 105mm cannon will always fire a larger projectile. And a faster one too.

It's like me saying "Yeah, a marshmellow travelling at .7c could rip a hole through a battleship, so a kid with a bowl of Lucky Charms can beat up the US navy."

It's hypothetically true, but the kid isn't going to pur his breakfast into a railgun, is he?

SWAG specifically states "battroid mode" which would certainly NOT provide a reason for survivability of a Valkyrie under such stresses in fighter or GERWALK mode. 

Only stated for the VF-0, which is limited in power.

Again, assuming the destroids use SWAG is not known and wouldn't increase their armor strength any more than a Valkyrie.

If they have more armor at the beginning, then they end with more armor. And you can tell JUST BY LOOKING that most destroids are more heavily-armored than most VFs.

1+1<2+1.

Near misses and fine point peneration are two entirely different things and would make all the difference in a discussion of the Monster's armor strength.  Much of a weapons destructive potential lies in the amount of force DIRECTED at the target.  Explosions, even near misses, inflict mere fractions of their damage potential while a beam or projectile inflicts zero to maximum based on a hit or miss (keeping all other factors equal).  Does the Monster's armor enable it to survive a one kiloton blast from a distance of 100 meters?  How about a 100 megaton nuke at 1 km?  What is considered the vague description "nuclear" and "close range"?  Again, we are brought back to knowns rather than unknowns amd vagaries.

I'm assuming that being able to survive a nuclear blast at close range means "can take forces that would destroy any other mech around."

To place the optional weapons pack of the YF-19 at the same level of a nuclear blast is ludicrous given the known limit of mecha mounted beam/ballistic weaponry and the power generation ability of Valkyries in the Macross universe.

I acknowledge that as it is focused, it requires less power to deal the same damage.

I propose that it is self-powered, and hypothesize that it uses a supercapacitor for said power. That would enable a very high energy density in a very small weapon, but leave you with a limited-fire device.

Working off the animation, official literature, and basic application of physics to the fictional Macross universe is all we have.  If we don't use that, than what better method do you propose by which you intend to debate why my opinion that a Valkyrie is already an Anti-armor unit within the confines of the Macross universe true or false?

I'm debating that it "sits comfortably on top of the military hardware food chain in the Macross universe."

And I propose to augment the woefully inadequate official specs with reasonable assumptions. It IS a reasonable assumption that SWAG armor was incorporated into everything possible after it was invented. And it IS a reasonable assumption to assume that a VF with more power may have SWAG engaged in more modes.

I apply basic physics to deduce that the VF-0 has more power available in battroid mdoe than GERWALK or fighter because the jet engine isn't forced to propel the mech forward, so more of the energy can be harnessed to generate electricity. Hence why SWAG is only available in that mode. The other modes don't have enough surplus energy.

I can sit here all day and come up with any explanation I want for everything I see so it supports a whimsical theory (light armored Cheyennes, lightly armored mecha, massive firepower disparities between otherwise comprable mecha, beam/ballistic disparities, arbitrary definitions of near and nuclear, et cetera, ad naseum), but I won't go anywhere but in a circle.

The Cheyenne being lightly armored is a reasonable assumption.

It is shown moving much faster than other destroids, which implies that it was intended to be faster. Which implies a sacrifice in mass.

Basing an analysis upon what has been seen and what is written is all we have.  I can say destroids have strong enough armor to repell gunpods, only to be proven wrong by events in the anime.

Or right, depending on where you look.

  I don't then make an excuse or come up with speculation to support my theory that is clearly wrong based on the facts; I take what is known and established, then work from that KNOWN ESTABLISHED base.

The facts being that a Cheyenne is blown up by an SV-51 gun, but the more modern Spartan isn't damaged signifigantly by a VF-1 gun of similar caliber?

That seems to support my supposition that the Cheyenne is more lightly-armored than other destroids.

Destroids could have been seen in numerous occassions in later shows, but were not.  M+ could have used them in the base, on the Macross itself, et cetera. 

How much do we see of the base? One shot of the hanger? Much like Hikaru's barracks in the original series, that was protected by a battroid. Of course, destroids were used for other purposes in the original series. Like protecting other bases, or the ship itself.

And the Macross itself? It's had anti-aircraft guns added to it. No need for it to have destroids

Furthermore, with Sharon Apple having brainwashed the city and taken over the computer network there's no one to pilot the destroids, and anyone that could is locked out. I wouldn't trust her brainwashed zombies to pilot a mech. They had enough trouble aiming rifles. We'll cut Yang some slack. Bad angle, not a military officer. But those troops that were sent to kill Myung have no excuse.

M7 would be too numerous to list.

As I said, the vast majority of the show took place in space. Having a proper fleet for defense, there is no need to march destroids out onto the surface of the ship.

The planetary fight segments pay very little attention to anything where a destroid could be. They keep Basara front+center. And he doesn't fly very low, or near to home, which is where anti-aircraft mechs would be marched out(only ones we'd be likely to see, as the protodeviln were only shown using VFs in the animation).

Millia didn't say the Monster was too antiquated to help defend the city when it was dragged out. Just that it was too big to be firing inside the city.

And there ARE a lot of destroids in the GameBoy Color Mac7 game. Which is recent enough that Kawamori's been heavily involved in the games, to the extent that original game stories are now considered canon extensions of the universe.

If destroids weren't still in use, I would assume he'd've vetoed that feature.

  A trend towards fewer destroids has been set, regardless of the speculation I came up with to describe WHY they are not in fashion any more with the UN Spacy military.

They weren't seen very much in the original show either, except for those 3 that got blown up over and over and over on the SDF's skin.

[promethuem5]

Oh yeah! I forgot about the Stampy....

You guys are rediculous.... you're arguing about IMAGINARY armor that only exists as an UNdefined acronym....

[Mr March]

Let's keep the irrelevant parts to a minimum please.  I'm not talking barriers, I'm talking armor and have not deviated.  The point stands.

SWAG isn't in the same category?

The Cheyenne is no oddity just because it was given wheels to operat on the deck of a battleship in an anti-air role.  Nothing has been stated in official literature nor seen in the anime that suggests the Cheyenne is any less/more armored than other destroids.  All that is known without running off and creating my own set of standards is that the SV-51 destroyed a Cheyenne; a destroid.  Precedent established.

The Cheyenne is also based on a diffrent design than the Phalanx, Tomahawk, and Defender, which all share a common leg/body assembly.

And it DOES look far more lightly armored, based on the animation.

I'm talking armor on mecha, not the barrier systems. SWAG is defined by the anime and literature as an armor, not an energy barrier. There goes that anime and literature agreeing again. Damn them

So the armor strength of the Cheyenne is based it the design of it's legs and because it "looks" different. Oh yes, this is much better. We're definitely making progress...

Well, how about we go into splitting hairs like what you meant by "massively". In return, I can tell you what I meant by "superior". Round and round...

Except for the fact neither Zentradi nor Valkyries show any particular resistances/weaknesses to ballistic/beam weapons over one another. Nice theory, no basis.

Actually, it's more like saying "A valkyrie can smoke a destroid" but your milieage may vary.

Do you even know the difference between mass and size? I used specific language and the point has yet to be contested, so I'll wait until it is.

Going again into unknowns. We know the SWAG works in battroid and that a variation is used in VFs after the VF-0. Sounds simple enough to go with that unless we're making up stuff again.

I've already dealt with the silly "look" theory, so we'll skip this one.

I'm assuming able to survive a nuclear blast at close range means superior heat resistance and structural strength but not invulnerable to DIRECTED penetrating attacks from mecha scale weaponry. And wouldn't you know it, it jives with what we see in the anime.

It makes no sense for a self powered cannon to have a smaller and more powerful reactor than that of the mecha upon which it is mounted. Why wouldn't the mecha itself be using this more powerful, more space efficient reactor in the first place? Maybe it's an exotic reator? Maybe it's got limited power generation? Maybe it's not a reactor at all? Maybe...maybe...maybe...

Valkyrie seems superior to me based on it's capabilites against all other mecha it fought in the animes, destroids included. It also sees more use and development (Super, Strike, GBP, EW, etc) than the other UN Spacy mecha in the animes, destroids included. I continue to await a better method of analysis that states it is not.

Could a Cheyenne possibly move faster than other destroids because it has...wheels? Naw, that can't be it

Or wrong, depending upon what you ignore.

Or that the Spartan wasn't even hit.

Exactly, no need for destroids, hence why they were abandoned. I couldn't agree more.

This was refreshing.

Edited April 14, 2005 by Mr March

[Mr March]

Oh yeah! I forgot about the Stampy....

You guys are rediculous.... you're arguing about IMAGINARY armor that only exists as an UNdefined acronym....

The thread is under your command. Give the word and I'll stop defending my original post. That is still what I'm doing right?