Star Wars: Clone Wars animated series

[Dobber]

Good post Keith, that's how I saw Anakin too. I always felt that once he opened himself to the Darkside it was like opening the flood-gates to a disease. It just rapidly overtook and overwhelmed him and would explain his drastic actions immediately after. Like you said, Lucas set it up, but he just doesn't execute it well enough. I always felt a few simple lines here or there, in Sith, would have really cleaned things up abit for the audience.

Chris

[Seanzilla]

I would like to add that Palpatine has been planting the seeds for the last 13 years, especially in the last 3 years, all the while being one of Anakin's closest friends. I mean Anakin did tell Palpatine about the massacring of the Tusken Raiders, and not one member of the Jedi Order, including Obi Wan. (hopefully the clone wars will show more and more of Anakin's relationship and trust in Palpatine)

Many of the seeds planted were how the Jedi didn't trust Anakin, how they were holding him back, or trying to contain his power, fearing his potential. (not making him a Master, not allowing him to take out General Grievous) Then it was how the Jedi are really all about gaining power for themselves and taking control. How they were planning on betraying the office of the Chancellor and the Republic itself to take full control. These ideals were compounded when Obi Wan and the Jedi Council (off the record) asked Anakin to spy on his friend Palpatine.

Then you add in Palpatine offering his help and power to save Padme, the one person Anakin loved more than anyone or anything. Anakin became further confused on who to trust, but went to turn him in to the Jedi Council...

Now you go to the moments before Mace and crew roll up into Palpatine's office... Anakin is sitting there and knows deep down that the Jedi may kill Palpatine and end all hope he has of saving Padme... so he rushes off to ensure that he isn't killed, just arrested.

Palpatine of course staged his "defeat" at the hands of Mace Windu, fully calculating when his new apprentice would show up to save him from the assassination attempt from Mace. He had to look like a weak old man, just trying to defend himself from this ruthless attacker. Anakin arrives, and Palpatine states: "I was right the Jedi are trying to take over" Force lightning is exchanged and Mace, facing an unarmed opponent, says he is "finishing this once and for all". When Anankin protests saying it isn't the Jedi way, Mace doesn't care and proceeds... all that Anakin had been taught about the Jedi from the Jedi became lies in his head. All that his friend and confidant Palpatine had said about them was true... in his head. Palpatine had force Mace's hand, he had to make him an assassin there, succeeded, and Anakin stepped in.

It was all down hill for Anakin from that point on. After Mace's death Palpatine stated that once the Jedi discover what has happened they will kill us along with all of the senators. (Padme is a senator) Anakin agrees that will be the Jedi's next move... Time for a darkside fueled Jedi massacre.

[Dynaman]

Crap, I'm overthinking this way too much....it's what happens when you're sleep deprived and imposing a Star Wars marathon on yourself......

Nope - your just realizing that Lucas is a *GREAT* big picture man, and sucks at writing dialog or character interaction.

[troyness]

Nope - your just realizing that Lucas is a *GREAT* big picture man, and sucks at writing dialog or character interaction.

Nicely sumed up!!

Lucas is a great BIG picture man.

It,s famously known that alot of actors had a very hard time trying to deliver his dialoge.

Alot of work gets done for him in his creative department as he oversees the the overall story arc..just wish he,d have better instincts to stay away from scripts/screenplays.

I guess Lucas must be surrounded by yes men, when tough love gets handed out like:"don,t write buddy ,there are movie lovers here!!" ,they must either get fired,relocated OR lucas shruggs and says:"I,m george lucas".

[Keith]

Nicely sumed up!!

Lucas is a great BIG picture man.

It,s famously known that alot of actors had a very hard time trying to deliver his dialoge.

Alot of work gets done for him in his creative department as he oversees the the overall story arc..just wish he,d have better instincts to stay away from scripts/screenplays.

I guess Lucas must be surrounded by yes men, when tough love gets handed out like:"don,t write buddy ,there are movie lovers here!!" ,they must either get fired,relocated OR lucas shruggs and says:"I,m george lucas".

Correction: "I''M GEORGE LUCAS BITCH!"

Edited July 29, 2011 by Keith

[Dynaman]

I guess Lucas must be surrounded by yes men, when tough love gets handed out like:"don,t write buddy ,there are movie lovers here!!" ,they must either get fired,relocated OR lucas shruggs and says:"I,m george lucas".

After the first two movies he had pretty much complete control over the movies - and he is convinced he can do dialog for some reason. Luckily for him someone else rewrote his original Star Wars dialog (watching the actors in their screen tests is cringe worthy - not due to their acting but the dialog), and then doubly lucky that someone else directed Empire Strikes Back.

[peter]

Holy crap, thanks for helping me put it all in perspective. There's so much I didn't know and never even thought of.....Darth Plageius...holy crap....you guys are right about George being the big picvture guy, but he can't write worth a damn for dialogue to have his big story make sense in small fragments.

There's also way too much to tell in 6 short films.....thank God for Clone Wars, and here's hoping for more tv series to explain more stuff.

Thanks again!

[peter]

Watching the Padawan Menace and I'm pissing myself laughing, haha! Ian sounds like Bart Simpson.

Jar-Jar gets owned, awesome.

[troyness]

Correction: "I''M GEORGE LUCAS BITCH!"

I bet that,s a slogen underneath a huge painted self portrait of Lucas in bed with Howard the duck at the entrance of skywalker ranch.

I bet his employee,s uniform is a checkered long sleave shirt rolled up at the forearms, tucked in to blue jeans with a belt.

I bet that when you get a promotion at skywalker ranch, Lucas would knight you with a fx lightsaber.

.....don,t cross him tho, he,ll probably throw a lightsaber hilt thru your window wrapped in the threatening message.

you,d get frightening calls in the middle of the night, with nothing but Darth Vader breathing fx and then ...click.

I bet when George turns off a light switch at the wall,he,d scream out:"Lightside off, darkside on"..even if he had handclappers!!

[Seanzilla]

New Full trailer: http://www.starwars.com/video/view/0000/0025

The first minute or so is basically what we have seen in previous trailers, still looks cool, but the second half of this trailer...

[peter]

New Full trailer: http://www.starwars.com/video/view/0000/0025

The first minute or so is basically what we have seen in previous trailers, still looks cool, but the second half of this trailer...

So, does that mean you like it? I still have to watch it with sound....at work right now, sound disabled....=(

[Dobber]

Wow!! that gave me goosebumps. Big thumbs up so far!!

Chris

[Keith]

I really like how they've improved the animation on this show each season while still maintaining the same style. The season premiere being on the same day that the SW blurays come out however may be asking for people to DVR it

[Seanzilla]

So, does that mean you like it? I still have to watch it with sound....at work right now, sound disabled....=(

Yeah loved it. It was awesome. I want to talk about it, but for those holding out, it could/does contain some spoilers.

[peter]

That last scene with the group of clone troopers...beginnings of the 501st?

Edited August 20, 2011 by peter

[Zor Primus]

That last scene with the group of clone troopers...beginnings of the 501st?

Anakin's Troopers are the 501st.

I'm really stoked about this season...second part of the trailer was AWESOME...

[Dobber]

Which makes what they do in ROTS so much more......heartbreaking. Can't imagine Rex doing that but then again Cody had no problem trying to kill Kenobi.

Chris

[peter]

Which makes what they do in ROTS so much more......heartbreaking. Can't imagine Rex doing that but then again Cody had no problem trying to kill Kenobi.

Chris

I know....I'm still struggling to accept that. I mean, the humanize these troopers so much in this series, they're no longer just mindless clones. The one that turned farmer tells me that they don't have to obey orders....so, if he hears the order, would he be able to up and leave his family and go off to kill Jedi, or would he be able to say, "*uck this, I still want to be a farmer?"

It really sucks about the fate of the troopers.

[Dobber]

IIRC, Stormtroopers aren't clones correct? So I would be interested in seeing what the clones were like after order 66. Like after they had time time think about what they did. Where there problems with the clones and that was why the empire stopped using them?

I know it would never happen, and I've said it before, but I'd love it if the clone wars series would finish with another movie that would essentially be a retelling of ROTS only fitting more with what is being established in the clone wars and maybe fleshing out some of the things that were glanced over in the movie....like order 66 and maybe the impact it had on the clones after the fact, if it did at all.

Chris

[Keith]

Again, Order 66 reallly didn't seem to be just a verbal order, it appeared to be something that was implanted in the Clones subconcious. You know, kinda like a hypnotic suggestion, but instead of clucking like chickens, they had to kill all Jedi.

[Dobber]

I get that, just wondering if the change was perminant or if after time they would start to revert back or question what they did. Storm Troopers replaced them after all, or I guess the Empire just decided that it would be cheaper to train people traditionally rather then grow clones or maybe the genetic sample was lost or used up.

Chris

[Keith]

You have to look at it this way. The Clone Wars were a Sith plot to take control of the republic. At the time, the Jedi were the republic's main peace keeping force, there was no need for an organized main military force, though each world did seem to have its own smaller force. It was easy enough to work up an army for the Seperatists, since they were using droids. But in order to expediate the whole process, the Republic also had to have a main military force, which is why Plagueis/Sidious or whichever one was pretending to be Sifo Dyas ordered up the Clones. Now I doubt they went back to "normal" after order 66, since that could pose other problems, but once the Republic/Empire was under control, there was no longer a need for "quick" troops, and Storm Troopers could be recruited leisurely from the Empire as a whole.

[Dobber]

Cool thanks. I forgot about the whole Sifo Dyas thing too. Makes me wonder who are the better troopers, Clones or StormTroopers. Well not really, Clones are MUCH better shots!

Chris

[Warmaker]

Regarding the whole thing about Anakin's turn to the Dark Side, I'll play Devil's Advocate for a bit. Some years ago I posted some excerpts about this from the Revenge of the Sith novel.

**Starting off after the Council session where Anakin was admitted into it, but not granted Mastery**

Anakin was glad the vast vaulted Temple hallway was deserted save for him and Obi-Wan; he didn't have to keep his voice down.

"This is outrageous. How can they do this?"

"How can they not?" Obi-Wan countered. "It's your friendship with the Chancellor--- the same friendship that got you a seat at the Council--- that makes it impossible to grant you Mastery. In the Council's eyes, that would be the same as giving a vote to Palpatine himself!"

He waved this off. He didn't have time for the Council's political maneuvering---

Padme didn't have time. "I didn't ask for this. I don't need this. So if I wasn't friends with Palpatine I'd be a Master already, is that what you're saying?"

Obi-Wan looked pained. "I don't know."

"I have the power of any five Masters. Any ten. You know it, and so do they."

"Power alone is no credit to you---"

Anakin flung an arm back toward the Council Tower. "They're the ones who call me the chosen one! Chosen for what? To be a dupe in some slimy political game?"

Obi-Wan winced as if he'd been stung. "Didn't I warn you, Anakin? I told you of the... tension... between the Council and the Chancellor. I was very clear. Why didn't you listen? You walked right into it!"

"Like that ray shield trap." Anakin snorted. "Should I blame this on the dark side, too?"

"However it happened," Obi-Wan said, "you are in a very... delicate situation."

"What situation? Who cares about me? I'm no Master, I'm just a kid, right? Is that what it's about? Is Master Windu turning everyone against me because until I came along, he was the youngest Jedi ever named to the Council?"

"No one cares about that---"

"Sure they don't. Let me tell you something a smart old man said to me not so long ago: Age is no measure of wisdom. If it were, Yoda would be twenty times as wise as you are---"

"This has nothing to do with Master Yoda."

"That's right. It has to do with me. It has to do with them all being against me. They always have been--- most of them didn't even want me to be a Jedi. And if they'd won out, where would I be right now? Who would have done the things I've done? Who would have saved Naboo? Who would have saved Kamino? Who would have killed Dooku, and rescued the Chancellor? Who would have come for you and Alpha after Ventress---"

"Yes, Anakin, yes. Of course. No one questions your accomplishments. It's your relationship to Palpatine that is the problem. And it is a very serious problem."

"I'm too close to him? Maybe I am. Maybe I should alienate a man who's been nothing but kind and generous to me ever since I first came to this planet! Maybe I should reject the only man who gives me the respect I deserve---"

"Anakin, stop. Listen to yourself. Your thoughts are of jealousy, and pride. These are dark thoughts, Anakin. Dangerous thoughts, in these dark times--- you are focused on yourself when you need to focus on your service. Your outburst in the Council was an eloquent argument against granting you Mastery. How can you be a Jedi Master when you have not mastered yourself?"

Anakin passed his flesh hand over his eyes and drew a long, heavy breath. In a much lower, calmer, quieter tone, he said, "What do I have to do?"

Obi-Wan frowned. "I'm sorry?"

"They want something from me, don't they? That's what this is really about. That's what it's been about from the beginning. They won't give me my rank until I give them what they want."

"The Council does not operate that way, Anakin, and you know it."

Once you're a Master, as you deserve, how will they make you do their bidding?

"Yes, I know it. Sure I do," Anakin said. Suddenly he was tired. So incredibly tired. It hurt to talk. It hurt even to stand here. He was sick of the whole business. Why couldn't it just be over? "Tell me what they want."

Obi-Wan's eyes shifted, and the sick fatigue in Anakin's guts turned darker. How bad did it have to be to make Obi-Wan unable to look him in the eye?

"Anakin, look, I'm on your side," Obi-Wan said softly. He looked tired, too: he looked as tired and sick as Anakin felt. "I never wanted to see you put in this situation."

"What situation?"

Still Obi-Wan hesitated.

Anakin said, "Look, whatever it is, it's not getting any better while you're standing here working up the nerve to tell me. Come on, Obi-Wan. Let's have it."

Obi-Wan glanced around the empty hall as if he wanted to make sure they were still alone; Anakin had a feeling it was just an excuse to avoid facing him when he spoke.

"The Council," Obi-Wan said slowly, "approved your appointment because Palpatine trusts you. They want you to report on all his dealings. They have to know what he's up to."

"They want me to spy on the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic?" Anakin blinked numbly. No wonder Obi-Wan couldn't look him in the face. "Obi-Wan, that's treason!"

"We are at war, Anakin." Obi-Wan looked thoroughly miserable. "The Council is sworn to uphold the principles of the Republic through any means necessary. We have to. Especially when the greatest enemy of those principles seems to be the Chancellor himself!"

Anakin's eyes narrowed and turned hard. "Why didn't the Council give me this assignment while we were in session?"

"Because it's not for the record, Anakin. You must be able to understand why."

"What I understand," Anakin said grimly, "is that you are trying to turn me against Palpatine. You're trying to make me keep secrets from him--- you want to make me lie to him. That's what this is really about."

"It isn't," Obi-wan insisted. He looked wounded. "It's about keeping an eye on who he deals with, and who deals with him."

"He's not a bad man, Obi-Wan--- he's a great man, who's holding this Republic together with his bare hands---"

"By staying in office long after his term has expired. By gathering dictatorial powers---"

"The Senate demanded that he stay! They pushed those powers on him---"

"Don't be naive. The Senate is so intimidated they give him anything he wants!"

"Then it's their fault, not his! They should have the guts to stand up to him!"

"That is what we're asking you to do, Anakin."

Anakin had no answer. Silence fell between them like a hammer.

He shook his head and looked down at the fist he made with his mechanical hand.

Finally, he said, "He's my friend, Obi-Wan."

"Yes," Obi-Wan said softly. Sadly. "I know."

"If he asked me to spy on you, do you think I would do it?"

Now it was Obi-Wan's turn to fall silent.

"You know how kind he has been to me." Anakin's voice was hushed. "You know how he's looked after me, how he's done everything he could to help me. He's like family."

"The Jedi are your family---"

"No." Anakin turned on his former Master. "No, the Jedi are your family. The only one you've ever known. But i'm not like you--- I had a mother who loved me---"

And a wife who loves me, he thought. And soon a child who will love me, too.

"Do you remember my mother? Do you remember what happened to her---?"

--- because you didn't let me go to save her? he finished silently. And the same will happen to Padme, and the same will happen to our child.

Within him, the dragon's cold whisper chewed at his strength. All things die, Anakin Skywalker. Even stars burn out.

"Anakin, yes. Of course. You know how sorry I am for your mother. Listen: we're not asking you to act against Palpatine. We're only asking you to... monitor his activities. You must believe me."

Obi-Wan stepped closer and put a hand on Anakin's arm. With a long, slowly indrawn breath, he seemed to reach some difficult decision. "Palpatine himself may be in danger," he said. "This may be the only way you can help him."

"What are you talking about?"

"I am not supposed to be telling you this. Please do not reveal we have had this conversation. To anyone, do you understand?"

Anakin said, "I can keep a secret."

"All right." Obi-Wan took another deep breath. "Master Windu traced Darth Sidious to Five Hundred Republica before Grievous's attack--- we think that the Sith Lord is someone someone within Palpatine's closest circle of advisers. That is who we want you to spy on, do you understand?"

A fiction created by the Jedi Council... an excuse to harass their political enemies...

"If Palpatine is under the influence of a Sith Lord, he may be in the gravest danger. The only way we can help him is to find Sidious, and to stop him. What we are asking of you is not treason, Anakin--- it may be the only way to save the Republic!"

If this Darth Sidious of yours were to walk through that door right now... I would ask him to sit down, and I would ask him if he has any power he could use to end this war

"So all you're really asking," Anakin said slowly, "is for me to help the Council find Darth Sidious."

"Yes." Obi-Wan looked relieved, incredibly relieved, as though some horrible chronic pain had suddenly and inexplicably eased. "Yes, that's it exactly."

Locked within the furnace of his heart, Anakin whispered an echo--- not quite an echo--- slightly altered, just at the end: I would ask him to sit down, and I would ask him if he has any power he could use---

--- to save Padme.

They streaked through the capital's sky.

Obi-Wan stared past Yoda and Mace Windu, out through the gunship's window at the vast deployment platform and the swarm of clones who were loading the assault cruiser at the far end.

"You weren't there," he said. "You didn't see his face. I think we have done a terrible thing."

"We don't always have the right answer," Mace Windu said. "Sometimes there isn't a right answer."

"Know how important your friendship with young Anakin is to you, I do." Yoda, too, stared out toward the stark angles of the assault cruiser being loaded for the counterinvasion of Kashyyyk; he stood leaning on his gimer stick as though he did not trust his legs. "Allow such attachments to pass out of one's life, a Jedi must."

Another man--- even another Jedi--- might have resented the rebuke, but Obi-Wan only sighed. "I suppose--- he is the chosen one, after all. The prophecy says he was born to bring balance to the Force, but..."

The words trailed off. He couldn't remember what he'd been about to say. All he could remember was the look on Anakin's face.

"Yes. Always in motion, the future is." Yoda lifted his head and his eyes narrowed to his thoughtful slits. "And the prophecy, misread it could have been."

Mace looked even grimmer than usual. "Since the fall of Darth Bane more than a millennium ago, there have been hundreds of thousands of Jedi--- hundreds of thousand of Jedi feeding the light with each work of their hands, with each breath, with every beat of their hearts, bringing justice, building civil society, radiating peace, acting out of selfless love for all living things--- and in all these thousands of years, there have been only two Sith at any time. They merely use the darkness that is always there. That has always been there. Greed and jealousy, aggression and lust and fear--- these are all natural to sentient beings. The legacy of the jungle. Our inheritance from the dark."

"I'm sorry, Master Windu, but I'm not sure I follow you. Are you saying--- to follow your metaphor--- that the Jedi have cast too much light? From what I have seen these past years, the galacy has not become all that bright a place."

"All I am saying is that we don't know. We don't even truly understand what it means to bring balance to the Force. We have no way of anticipating what this may involve."

"An infinite mystery is the Force," Yoda said softly. "The more we learn, the more we discover how much we do not know."

"So you both feel it, too," Obi-Wan said. The words hurt him. "You both can feel that we have turned some invisible corner."

"In motion, are the events of our time. Approach, this crisis does."

"Yes." Mace interlaced his fingers and squeezed until his knuckles popped. "But we're in a spice mine without a glow rod. If we stop walking, we'll never reach the light."

"And what if the light just isn't there?" Obi-Wan asked. "What if we get to the end of this tunnel and find only night?"

"Faith we must have. Trust in the will of the Force. What other choice is there?

Obi-Wan accepted this with a nod, but still when he thought of Anakin, dread began to curdle below his heart. "I should have argued more strongly in Council today."

"You think Skywalker won't be able to handle this?" Mace Windu said. "I thought you had more confidence in his abilities."

"I trust him with my life," Obi-Wan said simply. "And that is precisely the problem."

The other two Jedi Masters watched him silently while he tried to summon the proper words.

"For Anakin," Obi-Wan said at length, "there is nothing more important than friendship. He is the most loyal man I have ever met--- loyal beyond reason, in fact. Despite all I have tried to teach him about the sacrifices that are the heart of being a Jedi, he--- he will never, I think, truly understand."

He looked over at Yoda. "Master Yoda, you and I have been close since I was a boy. An infant. Yet if ending this war one week sooner--- one day sooner--- were to require that I sacrifice your life, you know I would."

"As you should," Yoda said. "As I would yours, young Obi-Wan. As any Jedi would any other, in the cause of peace."

"Any Jedi," Obi-Wan said, "except Anakin."

Yoda and Mace exchanged glances, both thoughtfully grim. Obi-Wan guessed they were remembering the times Anakin had violated orders--- the times he had put at risk entire operations, the lives of thousands, the control of whole planetary systems--- to save a friend.

More than once, in fact, to save Obi-Wan.

"I think," Obi-Wan said carefully, "that abstractions like peace don't mean much to him. He's loyal to people, not to principles. And he expects loyalty in return. He will stop at nothing to save me, for example, because he thinks I would do the same for him."

Mace and Yoda gazed at him steadily, and Obi-Wan had to lower his head.

"Because," he admitted reluctantly, "he knows I would do the same for him."

"Understand exactly where your concern lies, I do not." Yoda's green eyes had gone softly sympathetic. "Named must be your fear, before banish it you can. Do you fear that perform his task he cannot?"

"Oh, no. That's not it at all. I am firmly convinced that Anakin can do anything. Except betray a friend. What we have done to him today..."

"But that is what Jedi are," Mace Windu said. "That is what we have pledged ourselves to: selfless service---"

Obi-Wan turned to stare once more toward the assault ship that would carry Yoda and the clone battalions to Kashyyyk, but he could see only Anakin's face.

If he asked me to spy on you do you think I would do it?

"Yes," he said slowly. "That's why I don't think he will ever trust us again."

He found his eyes turning unaccountably hot, and his vision swam with unshed tears.

"And I'm not entirely sure he should."

[Warmaker]

IIRC, Stormtroopers aren't clones correct? So I would be interested in seeing what the clones were like after order 66. Like after they had time time think about what they did. Where there problems with the clones and that was why the empire stopped using them?

I know it would never happen, and I've said it before, but I'd love it if the clone wars series would finish with another movie that would essentially be a retelling of ROTS only fitting more with what is being established in the clone wars and maybe fleshing out some of the things that were glanced over in the movie....like order 66 and maybe the impact it had on the clones after the fact, if it did at all.

Chris

I may have a slightly different take compared to others. For what it's worth, here it goes.

Clones for the Stormtroopers continue on into the days of the Empire. Non-clones of course enter service with the Stormtroopers. And if you want to go by the Imperial campaign in Star Wars Battlefront II, different Clone templates also, after the Kaminoans were discovered to secretly grow their own Clones for use against the Empire.

As far as Order 66 goes, after reading around, esp. in the Republic Commando books, the Clones didn't kill the Jedi because of some program (a magic word to suddenly turn on longtime allies and hate them and kill them) or malice towards them. They killed the Jedi because the Clones were bred and trained to unquestioningly follow orders. The Jedi Order is quite powerful within the Republic. If you really look at it, they were a powerful organization that essentially could do what they wanted. But even though they were quite autonomous, there still was an established heirarchy of the Republic. A "Chain of Command" in every organization, any government especially. And in the Republic, the Supreme Chancellor is the head, which Palpatine just so happens to fill. Order 66 was merely one of a set of general set of orders that they've all been taught. A sort of... actions to carry out in the case of a specific circumstance that the order pertains to. Order 66 was merely (conveniently) a contingency order just in case the Jedi Order became a threat to the Republic. IRL, it's the same as militaries having contingency plans of war for different scenarios, including a "What If?" conflict against an ally.

So, combine the contingency Orders taught and drilled to the Clones, and the fact that they were bred and trained to be unquestioning and obedient to orders, is it really a surprise that they were able to kill the "traitorous" Jedi across the galaxy? That they killed them with no feeling of malice or hatred against them, to a point that almost all the Jedi couldn't even detect from the Force any shift from any of their troops suddenly against them?

The Clones killed the Jedi because they followed Order 66 just like they would follow orders to attack a Seperatist position.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Warmaker

[jwasko]

snip

To add to what Warmaker said about Order 66 and clone obedience:

In the books there there were some instances of clones who did not obey Order 66. I particularly remember a group in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

But I think these were often the clones that were more independent than the average "cannon fodder" trooper. Some clone troopers (like ARCs and Commandos) were purposefully grown and raised to be independents so that they could take on advance training and special missions. Others could just be poor quality control.

Also, Warmaker: That's pretty much what I go by. The only thing is that seems to remain unclear (to me, at least) is what percentage of the Stormtroopers were clones by the time of Ep IV. I tend to think of it as being fairly low, at least based on some of the Expanded Universe stuff that takes place soon after Return of the Jedi.

Edited August 23, 2011 by jwasko

[Keith]

I wouldn't count on much EU stuff in general, fanfiction is fanftiction, whether it's officially licensed or not.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Keith

[Warmaker]

I wouldn't count on much EU stuff in general, fanfiction is fanftiction, whether it's officially licensed or not.

That kind of leaves us in a crossroads, really, if we're sitting here talking about Star Wars' background. I do have to tend to agree with you in a ways. The movies trump all else when it comes to "canon." For me, if anything contradicts the basic theme or feel of the movies, I sort of... "discard" it.

Some things in the EU fit well with what's established by the movies, or compliment it nicely. The novelization of RotS is outstanding, IMO, and fleshes things out far more than the movie can do. The "Heir to the Empire" books, though set past RotJ, read like an extension of the original movies. But then you also have other things in the EU like the Star Wars Christmas Special (lol) and that Ewoks show.

When we sit here and talk about "Star Wars," what's acceptable and what's not? Everything put out with the official license? Or what fans like us pick and choose?

To add to what Warmaker said about Order 66 and clone obedience:

In the books there there were some instances of clones who did not obey Order 66. I particularly remember a group in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

But I think these were often the clones that were more independent than the average "cannon fodder" trooper. Some clone troopers (like ARCs and Commandos) were purposefully grown and raised to be independents so that they could take on advance training and special missions. Others could just be poor quality control.

Also, Warmaker: That's pretty much what I go by. The only thing is that seems to remain unclear (to me, at least) is what percentage of the Stormtroopers were clones by the time of Ep IV. I tend to think of it as being fairly low, at least based on some of the Expanded Universe stuff that takes place soon after Return of the Jedi.

Nice post number, BTW

I read "Dark Lord" also, was an okay read. The ones that questioned Order 66 and wanted reconfirmation were Republic Commandos. They, just like ARCs, were made to be more independent than mainline Clones. It was due to the nature of their tasks as Rep.Commandos.

As for % of Stormtroopers being Clones, not sure, but again, going by some of the EU stuff, in the years past the death of Palpatine and the decline of the Empire, Clones were less and less in supply when the facilities to make them were overrun / lost. By the time of "Heir to the Empire" and with Grand Admiral Thrawn's return, Capt.Pallaeon lamented how much fewer Stormtroopers were. The seizing of the Spaarti Cloning Chambers in a secret cache of Palpatine's was a big factor in expanding the manpower of the now smaller Empire.

But, as far as the movie timelines go, I'm wagering there's still a good % of Clones. They may not be the Clone Wars era "Jango Fett" template, but again, if you go by some of the EU stuff, there were other clone templates also. I'd also think that the internal security likes having the cloned Stormtroopers for the same exact reason why Palpatine brought them into the Republic's military to begin with: Unquestioning obedience to orders, loyal to the Chancellor / Emperor, the Republic / Empire. They didn't have ties to some homeworld or home system, or a group of people, from where ever they came from before. A life before the military. Their ties are with the Grand Army of the Republic / Imperial military, with the Republic / Empire.

[Keith]

Canon is pretty much all 6 films + Clone Wars.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Keith

[peter]

To add to what Warmaker said about Order 66 and clone obedience:

In the books there there were some instances of clones who did not obey Order 66. I particularly remember a group in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

But I think these were often the clones that were more independent than the average "cannon fodder" trooper. Some clone troopers (like ARCs and Commandos) were purposefully grown and raised to be independents so that they could take on advance training and special missions. Others could just be poor quality control.

Also, Warmaker: That's pretty much what I go by. The only thing is that seems to remain unclear (to me, at least) is what percentage of the Stormtroopers were clones by the time of Ep IV. I tend to think of it as being fairly low, at least based on some of the Expanded Universe stuff that takes place soon after Return of the Jedi.

Okay, so I guess there were some clones that should have been "rejects", such as the one that turned farmer, because if he was supposed to unquestioningly follow orders, there's no way that one could have left the army right? And the one that discovered him should have killed the traitor, but didn't....another flawed clone in the batch. I guess if it's explained that way, I can sort of accept what happened. The clones they humanize in Clone Wars, could possibly be the few clones that refuse to carry out ORder 66...

[Roy Focker]

Canon is pretty much all 6 films + Clone Wars.

Canon is the original trilogy.

[rdenham]

Canon is the original trilogy.

Conon is what ever Lucas wants it to be.

[jwasko]

Conon is what ever Lucas wants it to be.

This Wikipedia article reflects something that I read a long time ago (in a galaxy far, far away ) : that there are different levels of canon.

Basically:

1. The movies have first say on anything.

2. The Clone Wars is secondary only to the films (which probably reflects that Lucas actually pays a good bit of attention to what goes into the series...a fact that jives with some all of the interviews with Dave Filoni that I've seen).

3. Everything else either fits into the canon established by the films and The Clone Wars series, or it needs to be retconned, or it gets abandoned.

Example: Season 2 showed Mandalore as a modern urban planet filled with peace-loving citizens. Recent novels, set during and just after the clone wars, show an entirely rural "old world"-esque sort of planet filled with Mandalorian supercommandos wearing Mandalorian armor and bristling with weapons...when they weren't farming or having tender family moments.

Many/most fans preferred the bad-***es/honest farmers/good fathers of the novels to the hippies of the series.

I'm hoping for a retcon in season 4, if only because I like the multifaceted pro-killers/farmers/family men.

Edited August 24, 2011 by jwasko

[Warmaker]

Canon is the original trilogy.

You can't top it at all

Okay, so I guess there were some clones that should have been "rejects", such as the one that turned farmer, because if he was supposed to unquestioningly follow orders, there's no way that one could have left the army right? And the one that discovered him should have killed the traitor, but didn't....another flawed clone in the batch. I guess if it's explained that way, I can sort of accept what happened. The clones they humanize in Clone Wars, could possibly be the few clones that refuse to carry out ORder 66...

Just remember nothing is ever absolute!

As far as the Clone Wars go, just leaving the military service is a very big stretch for the Clones.

a. The army is all the Clones have been trained, indoctrinated... made for. It's been their life. There has been nothing else for them.

b. The Republic Commando books also went a bit into the culture of the Clones. They sort of inherited it from their Mandalorian trainers. Also keep in mind that the troops in this war were all of the same type, Jango Fett's. Sure, they may have been designed different (standard compared to ARCs, Rep.Commandos), but they were all "brothers." How do you leave the brothers you've served with? It's also this brotherhood that had them from killing each other.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Warmaker

[aerocombatpilot]

I've missed nearly all of season 2 and 3 because I'm going to buy all three seasons on dvd, but can somebody tell me what episode did Ahsoka change her outfit?