Star Wars

[eriku]

Has there been any confirmation on the role of Jar Jar Binks in ROTS?  I'm starting to get worried because I haven't seen any screen shots of him or read any mention of him at all.  He's been my favorite character in the prequels (next to Yoda) so I want to see his story wrapped up in the new movie as well.

There are people that love Jar Jar?

Not trying to ridicule here, but I thought it was pretty universally accepted that his character was/is extremely grating and annoying. I attended a fraternity party where a cardboard Jar Jar standup was used as a urinal (yeah I know, classy, but what can I say, it was a fraternity).

I think Jar Jar was Lucas' aborted attempt to create another beloved alien Chewbacca-like sidekick - it's too bad that idea didn't seem to work out, I'm sure a more solid, less annoying character might have actually contributed to the story. Not that I'd want a copy of Chewie, just maybe a character not quite so aimed at juvenile interests. Perhaps Lucas' aim was to appeal to the 10-and-under crowd, in which case he probably succeeded.

Ah well, I guess there's folks that adored the ewoks too (I didn't find them that bad)!

It's also universally accepted that chocolate tastes good, but there will always be a few people who can't stand it. I think the fact that everyone hates Jar Jar is one of the things that makes him so endearing to me. Hell, as far as I'm concerned he was the only saving grace of Episode I.

[Prime]

I thought he was viewed favorably by the young children set...

[bsu legato]

My cousins kids, 4 and 10 years old, are both big SW fans. OT and PT alike. I'll conduct an informal survey this weekend when I see them.

*damn, I deleted my Jar-Jar emoticon.

[Blaine23]

Has there been any confirmation on the role of Jar Jar Binks in ROTS?  I'm starting to get worried because I haven't seen any screen shots of him or read any mention of him at all.  He's been my favorite character in the prequels (next to Yoda) so I want to see his story wrapped up in the new movie as well.

There are people that love Jar Jar?

Yes there are. Unfortunately, these people are also 3 feet high and make shooey in their Pampers. Then cry until their parents buy them things.

(No, I'm not talking about Hurin... I'm talking about little children, you sickos. )

I think Jar Jar was Lucas' aborted attempt to create another beloved alien Chewbacca-like sidekick - it's too bad that idea didn't seem to work out, I'm sure a more solid, less annoying character might have actually contributed to the story. Not that I'd want a copy of Chewie, just maybe a character not quite so aimed at juvenile interests. Perhaps Lucas' aim was to appeal to the 10-and-under crowd, in which case he probably succeeded.

Chewbacca is the single greatest thing in the SW universe. And I'm 31. Scary, eh?

Ah well, I guess there's folks that adored the ewoks too (I didn't find them that bad!)

Ewoks at least sort of fit in the story, even if they are a giant unsettling break from the epic scale of the story already in progress... but to be fair, Han, Leia & Co. got stuck on their little Playskool Moon of Endor and had to make do.

With Jar Jar, however, we're supposed to believe that this alien jackass was actually useful enough to a couple of Jedi knights so that he could hang around for an entire movie... nobody believes that.

[do not disturb]

the ewoks were the classic underdogs, small, stupid, insignificate if you will, yet they still managed to beat the bad guys.

jar-jar would've been cool if he was a jedi, a badass gungan, pretty much anything but a bumbling fool.

[bsu legato]

Jar Jar was more than likely inspired from a similar character in Kurosawa's They Who Step on the Tail of the Tiger. In that film, Toshiro Mifune's character and his retainers have a "comic" porter who tags along for their journey, and is generally over-the-top and annoying.

Edited April 15, 2005 by bsu legato

[Zor Primus]

Republic/Imperial Troops...

AOTC

ROTS

ANH

Little bit easier then Legos hehe

Edited April 15, 2005 by Zor Primus

[Majestic]

I think many that were offended by Jar Jar made comparisons of his character to Steppin Fetchit. Considering JJ's accent, it's not hard to make that comparison. But I agree with BSU Legato, Lucas' inspiration likely drew more from Kurosawa than the vaudevillian blackface routine.

[Majestic]

Republic/Imperial Troops...

Man, I definately never tire of storm troopers. While the AOTC design never really took off for me, the ROTS design really looks great.

I had the pleasure of seeing a few excellent storm and clone trooper costumes at the last WonderCon in San Francisco. The best costume was actually a TIE pilot - I couldn't stop complimenting him on the details of his costume, down to the imperial flight manifest tacked to his knee!

Edited April 15, 2005 by Majestic

[Hurin]

Then cry until their parents buy them things.

(No, I'm not talking about Hurin... I'm talking about little children, you sickos.  )

*Hurin, sits pleasantly at his computer, minding his own business. . . when suddenly. . . SMACK*

[Hurin]

I thought he was viewed favorably by the young children set...

He was. So were the ewoks. That's the purpose for them being there. To make kids go "weeee!" and then go out and buy Ewok/Jar Jar pillow cases.

Ewoks (and the burping sarlacc pit) mark SW's decline into infantalism. Contrary to what is constantly alleged by those who say that this view is colored by nostalgia, most people that I know think this started with Jedi. . . which should be covered by the nostalgia factor. But oddly, isn't.

Of course, we're constantly told by our much cooler friends here that all the Star Wars movies were for young children and that there is no appreciable difference between their cinematic sensibilities. Yet, those who claim this merely assert it and have never pointed out the ANH and ESB correlaries to burp jokes, fart jokes, ewok slapstick, Han trying to blow out a friggin' torch with his breath (thus making him a moron), and/or just about everything the Jar Jar Binks does in TPM. Remember, they're just all the same, because the OT had. . . 3PO! 3PO is their ace in the hole. . . because he swas sometimes prissy. There you go. They're all the same.

Bah! Where's my coffee. I'm obviously bitter this morning!

Edit: I should mention that AotC partially redeemed things. And things may come full circle again with RotS. Perhaps Lucas wanted to suck in the kiddies and then adjust the target audience along with them as they aged. Because with a PG-13 rating, I'm hoping RotS will be in-line with the tone of ESB or at least ANH. But Jedi and TPM just plainly pander to children to the exclusion of teenagers and adults.

Edited April 15, 2005 by Hurin

[Majestic]

I agree, it's too bad Lucas had to stoop to the level of burp/fart jokes. Star Wars had the ability to be funny without being slapstick (i.e. Han on the radio in the death star "how are you?") or the Chewie "walking carpet" line.

[Hurin]

I agree, it's too bad Lucas had to stoop to the level of burp/fart jokes. Star Wars had the ability to be funny without being slapstick (i.e. Han on the radio in the death star "how are you?") or the Chewie "walking carpet" line. 

The "how are you" line is classic and believable because Han himself cringes as he says it, knowing that he just screwed up.

[bsu legato]

Of course, we're constantly told by our much cooler friends here that all the Star Wars movies were for young children and that there is no appreciable difference between their cinematic sensibilities. Yet, those who claim this merely assert it and have never pointed out the ANH and ESB correlaries to burp jokes, fart jokes, ewok slapstick, Han trying to blow out a friggin' torch with his breath (thus making him a moron), and/or just about everything the Jar Jar Binks does in TPM. Remember, they're just all the same, because the OT had. . . 3PO! 3PO is their ace in the hole. . . because he swas sometimes prissy. There you go. They're all the same.

Well yes and no, Hurin. There were some TPM-worthy goofy gags in ANH that were fortunately excised before the final edit was locked down. Whether we can thank Kurtz, Marcia Lucas or George himself is anybody's guess. Scroll through some of the deleted material on T-Bone's SW Universe and see for yourself. Empire seems pretty much free of that sense of humor, although I would argue that the Ugnaughts playing "keep-away" with Threepio's head was a little on the silly side.

[Hurin]

Well yes and no, Hurin. There were some TPM-worthy goofy gags in ANH that were fortunately excised before the final edit was locked down.

I think the operative word is excised. It ain't there. They thought better of it. My inclination is to believe that Lucas wasn't surrounded by as many Yes-men back then. People would actually tell him that something was stupid, silly, or just plain not working back then. Not so much anymore. Who knows, maybe it was his wife (Marcia).

Empire seems pretty much free of that sense of humor, although I would argue that the Ugnaughts playing "keep-away" with Threepio's head was a little on the silly side.

And the operative word there is little. In my humble opinion, it's not even in the same league as anything from TPM or even Jedi.

And, not directed at you bsu legato, but I love how a lot of people refer to 3PO as the "silly" part of the OT. . . yet, even restricting the discussion to just Threepio's character, even just within that narrow limitation, there is a world of difference in how that character is portrayed in the five movies. There is absolutely nothing analogous in the OT to Threepio's lame real world puns ("Well, I'm quite beside myself") at the end of AotC when he's decapitated and wandering around as a battle droid, etc.

In fact, Lucas had the opportunity to use nearly all those lines and lame puns in Empire when Threepio was decapitated. But it wasn't done. Why? Because the movies took themselves more seriously back then. They just simply had a different tone/sensibility.

H

Edited April 15, 2005 by Hurin

[Hurin]

I found this while looking into getting the OT non-SE edition on DVD somehow. It's regarding the fact that, in the recent DVD release, they actually added a "clunk" sound into the soundtrack where the Stormtrooper accidentally hits his head on the door in ANH.

But, I think this analysis of the decision to do this is apt for all that Star Wars has become in recent years:

Just as a refresher, here's the scene (no sound):

If God himself had put in the klunk, it would be wrong. The drama of the scene is one of intimidation: the bad guys are coming. You don't deliberately distract from that with a totally out-of-place bit of comedy shtick unless you have assaulted your audience with emotionally draining stuff for so long that they need a break, which was not the case here. There's actually a few pieces of comedy in Schindler's List because it's so heavy for so long! Saw Million Dollar Baby last night, same thing.. heavy heavy heavy, and finally a small bit of relief so you can reset.

It's filmmaking 101. The problem is, that after 25+ years, people familiar with the film take all the drama for granted, and having lost their perspective, begin eroding it with stuff like this. But if it was in the original mix, that wouldn't be all that surprising, either, because you tend to lose your perspective even in the middle of production, where constant frame-by-frame analysis over a long time has the same effect. It's often difficult to retain your memory of what a moment was like the first time you saw it, and being able to do so is one of the things that separates the men from the boys, production-wise. You have to know when to leave a thing alone. Today's Star Wars films, where one animator will work on an elbow for 6 weeks, is a study in this problem: He's got 6 weeks, one elbow. So he spends forever making the elbow thing do all kinds of stuff, when what it really might've needed was something subtle. In the end, the animation becomes too busy, the frame composition becomes too busy, and nobody knows what to care about anymore, so they don't care about anything. Phantom Menace is one of the best studies for film students in taking the drama for granted and way overplaying a scene with density of "gags". Every other instant is an opportunity for schtick, all of which detracts the audience from what the real drama is. The pod race didn't need any goofiness.. it would've been better without it, as you would've stayed in the moment. Most people agree that the lightsaber duel at the end is the most Star Wars feeling of TPM. Know why? It's clear. No shtick. You care, and you stay caring.

Filmmaking 101.

Original Thread is here.

Edited April 15, 2005 by Hurin

[JsARCLIGHT]

Ah the helmet bashing in ANH...

I have fond memories of noticing that long ago in a galaxy far far away before the internet (1983 when I got the OT on VHS with my first VCR) and pointing it out to friends.

Not a one of them believed me until they saw it with their own eyes.

Edit: that single flub egged me on to find all the other "mess ups" in AHN back then... there are actually a ton of them that I found but only a few turned out to be actual "flubs" like Mark Hamill blurting out "Carrie!" or Vader's silver fencing foil.

Edited April 15, 2005 by JsARCLIGHT

[Hurin]

Not a one of them believed me until they saw it with their own eyes.

Yes, and since I've obviously fallen over the edge into fanboyness here by posting so many times within the hour, I might as well point out:

The problem now is that the new sound they've inserted draws attention to it where you know that in the original, they were hoping you wouldn't notice.

H

[bsu legato]

My point about the ANH gags was that it wasn't some sort of "new" innovation for Lucas or Star Wars, and while can thank Kurtz or Marcia Lucas for their removal we're only doing so because we don't know who to really thank. God knows it's improper to ever acknowledge Lucas's work on these films.

Well I do agree that the "clunk" was an unnecessary addition to that scene. And while the troopers in that scene may have been there to put the droids in momentary peril, they're by and large portrayed somewhat comically throughout ANH. Hell, they can't hit Han, Chewie, Luke and Leia from less than 15ft (maybe if they actually aimed, instead of firing from the hip all the time). But you know, there's also a point that fans have clearly reached when they stopped looking at the films in the same light as they were intended. They were intended to be light entertainment, with some mythic underpinings. That's it. It's Star Wars, not Se7en.

And if anybody IS to blame for Clunky McKnockshishead, it would be Ben Burtt.

Edit: Incidentally, I always felt that Han trying vainly to blow the torch out was more of an Indiana Jones-ism. But I've honestly never heard anybody actually complain about it until today. I'll have to jot this down somewhere.

Edited April 15, 2005 by bsu legato

[Hurin]

like Mark Hamill blurting out "Carrie!" or Vader's silver fencing foil.

I thought the "Carrie" was thoroughly discredited. Even Mark H got into a heated exchange about it once, if I recall.

I always thought it was an odd sounding "Hey!"

Just googled it:

After Luke climbs down his X-Wing's ladder after the final battle, he sees Leia running towards him. He yells out, "Carrie!" (Leia real name.)

WHYNOT: This so-called blooper can finally be laid to rest. Recently, this statement was released by Lucasfilm soundman Ben Burtt.

Lucasfilm Debunks 'Carrie' Rumor It's an enduring rumor: that Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker inadvertently yells "Carrie!" to Princess Leia at the end of the original Star Wars film. But it's not true, according to the official Star Wars Web site. Star Wars sound editor Ben Burtt investigated the rumor while assembling the improved soundtrack for the special edition of the film, which was released in 1997. "We made loops out of everything Mark said and played them for a panel of listeners," Burtt told the Web site. "We edited the recording and filtered it and did everything we could to clean up the phrase where he yells as he hugs Princess Leia," played by Carrie Fisher.

The verdict? "The consensus was that he is yelling 'hey' or 'yay,' rather than 'Carrie.' In other takes he specifically yells 'yay!' at that point," Burtt said. "Like most garbled dialogue, if you listen to it over and over, with all the other voices in there, you can convince yourself that he is saying 'Carrie' or any number of things. But we were convinced that he really was just cheering."

For his part, Hamill said he was trying to yell, "Hey! There she is!" The actor added, "I ended up swallowing the 'is' part."

[Hurin]

My point about the ANH gags was that it wasn't some sort of "new" innovation for Lucas or Star Wars, and while can thank Kurtz or Marcia Lucas for their removal we're only doing so because we don't know who to really thank. God knows it's improper to ever acknowledge Lucas's work on these films. 

Hehe. Hey, I've been the guy who's been saying that Lucas was a genius, but then lost his touch for the cool and instead started making movies for his new daughter. It seems there is another school of thought out there (that is new to me) that says that he's always had a lame sense of humor and a tendency towards slapstick, but that it was restrained by those who knew better. But what we do seem to agree on is that there is a difference in tone between the movies. So at least we have that!

And while the troopers in that scene may have been there to put the droids in momentary peril, they're by and large portrayed somewhat comically throughout ANH.

I think that's how we view them today. But I think they were supposed to be menacing back then. Look at how they are introduced in ANH. . . by annihilating a bunch of rebel soldiers as they overrun a rebel spacecraft. This whole "Stormtroopers are idiots" thing came about over the years as a sort of comical rationalization for why they never managed to kill even one of the heros. But, that tends to come up in any series where the good guys never die yet manage to pick off bad guys by the bushell.

And if anybody IS to blame for Clunky McKnockshishead, it would be Ben Burtt.

Well, you got me there. Very true.

H

Edited April 15, 2005 by Hurin

[JsARCLIGHT]

I thought the "Carrie" was thoroughly discredited.  Even Mark H got into a heated exchange about it once, if I recall.

I always thought it was an odd sounding "Hey!"

Back in the day and last time I saw the movie I clearly hear "Carrie"... then again who am I to go against the illustrious Mr. Burtt and his infinite wisdom.

... then again I also noticed a lot of other dialogue "goofs" in ANH that no one else seems to hear but me that have been "discredited" and overexplained by fanboys.

Edit: one of my personal favorite "only JsARCLIGHT hears it" audio flubs is when the Y-wings get pasted in the death star trench and Gold leader gets blown to dogfood and Gold three (or two, which I forget) leaves the trench and says "Lost Tiree, Lost Hutch. It came from... behind" and you hear one of the red boys say "copy, Gold leader" even though Gold leader is in pieces on the death star trench. Now it could be argued that they instantly promoted Gold three to Gold leader (because there was one other surviving Y-wing out there for him to lead) for the five seconds he lived before getting pasted himself but that just seems dumb.

Edited April 15, 2005 by JsARCLIGHT

[bsu legato]

You know...I never heard "Carrie" until after it was pointed out to me. Before that it just sounded like a garbled "HeeEeyyYyy!!" From then on all I could hear was "Carrie!" Then when LFL finally explained their take on it, I decided that I didn't know what I was hearing. If I want, it sounds like "Carrie!!!" or if I'm in the mood, it's "HeeEeyyYyy!!!" I think this is a sign that movies just aren't meant to be watched so very many times.

And now I have to pop in the DVDs to listen for JsARC's "Gold Leader" flub.

[Jemstone]

Edit: one of my personal favorite "only JsARCLIGHT hears it" audio flubs is when the Y-wings get pasted in the death star trench and Gold leader gets blown to dogfood and Gold three (or two, which I forget) leaves the trench and says "Lost Tiree, Lost Hutch. It came from... behind" and you hear one of the red boys say "copy, Gold leader" even though Gold leader is in pieces on the death star trench. Now it could be argued that they instantly promoted Gold three to Gold leader (because there was one other surviving Y-wing out there for him to lead) for the five seconds he lived before getting pasted himself but that just seems dumb.

I'm glad you caught that too. That crap confused the hell out of me years back. It was one of those moments when you second guess yourself with "But but but but... I thought Gold Leader just died..... then who... or how?". Then just said what the heck and dropped it.

[Shadow Skull]

QUOTE (JsARCLIGHT @ Apr 15 2005, 03:37 PM)

Edit: one of my personal favorite "only JsARCLIGHT hears it" audio flubs is when the Y-wings get pasted in the death star trench and Gold leader gets blown to dogfood and Gold three (or two, which I forget) leaves the trench and says "Lost Tiree, Lost Hutch. It came from... behind" and you hear one of the red boys say "copy, Gold leader" even though Gold leader is in pieces on the death star trench. Now it could be argued that they instantly promoted Gold three to Gold leader (because there was one other surviving Y-wing out there for him to lead) for the five seconds he lived before getting pasted himself but that just seems dumb.

I also recall that scene too, I'm not sure if it is a mistake on the actors part or if that was what he was suppose to say. In some ways it does make sense for the Y-wing pilot to be called Gold Leader if he was the most senior pilot out of an the surviving Y-wing pilots (I recall at least one escaping or maybe I'm mistaken). Since that would make him the acting wing leader.

[JsARCLIGHT]

At the end of ANH one Y-wing is seen speeding away with the Falcon, Luke's X-wing and Wedge's X-wing... so one lone Y-wing did survive. That being the case, Gold FIVE (I found the script online and the script says it is Gold Five that says those lines coming out of the trench) would have been Gold leader for all of three seconds before he himself got waxed by the baddies.

Then that means that last Y-wing would have been Gold leader, flight 1 of 1.

As for the whole "Copy, Gold leader" blurb it always appeared to me that it was just a single clip of footage that was inserted in the editing process. You can take that clip out of the scene and it will still make perfect sense... but with it IN the scene it puts a whole different slant on what Gold Five says.

[Sundown]

well thats exactly how this story is told.  young anakins portrayal was far from innnocent, he grew up as a slave with a mother who was a slave and worked for that shifty bastid Watto in Mos Eisley which is run by Jabba the crime lord and he enters pod races to win money.....yeah thats innocent alright.  thats like me growing up in the streets of new york, turned hooker in las vegas, with the crime rate of S. American while its being run by the gambio crime family.

Okay, I'll grant you that he's been exposed to lots of evil. But I still see innocence corrupted, damaged goods. We see how screwed up he becomes just a few years later. There's still no stalwart stand against evil. At the very least, I want to see this in an adult Anakin.

What we have is still innocence tainted, and a gradual slip to the dark side from the beginning. It's not the good-bad-good dynamic we wanted to see, and what the OT suggested.

as far as abrupt out of character jump, i dont' kow what movies you've been watching but its far from it.   in ROTJ luke calls him out on it when he turns himself in on endor.  ""i feel the conflict within you father, thats why you couldn't kill me then, that why you won't take me to your emperor now".  "its too late for me my son, you don't know the power of the darkside". 

in ESB, vader could've easily killed him but couldn't/wouldn't?   he could've let the emperor finish him on ROTJ but vader stopped him?  showing that vader still had good within him and love for his son, like any other father.

That's my point entirely. There wasn't any abrupt out of character jump when the OT existed by itself. But watching them with the PT in mind, we keep wondering why vain, whiny, arrogant, annoying, rash, genocidal Vader is all of a sudden so pansy and paternal after decades of death dealing. We know Vader didn't kill luke because he felt some internal struggle. But watching it with the PT in mind we're apt to disbelieve his concern for his son. It's easier to attribute his actions as being for power or the Dark Side's sake.

I know it's shown clearly that there's an internal struggle in Vader between his old/good self and his Dark Side in the OT. But that's precisely my point. Instead of setting and building up to this conflict in the new movies, Lucas just uses our knowledge of that conflict to spare himself the trouble of even having to really deal with it. It's bad storytelling. It's like PT Anakin is a totally different character. Because he is.

The reason we don't feel as noticably the break from character in Vader's final act is only because the OT was consistent to itself. It's the PT that isn't consistent with the OT.

-Al

Edited April 15, 2005 by Sundown

[ManxoChu]

Here's another ANH moment that's been bugging me for all these years:

During the trench run, before Red Leader bought the moisture farm he tells Luke, Wedge and Biggs to begin their run as well as informing them one of his engines is hit (although he seems to be flying just fine at the time). Moments later we actually see the engine get hit and Red Leader takes his final closeup of the Death Star surface, becoming the X-Wing equivalent of impacted Bantha poodoo. It makes me feel as if the sequence of events went 'B-A-C' instead of 'A-B-C'.

What bugs me is: Was that one engine hit twice? Were two engines hit, with only one being shown to us getting hit? Am I imagining all this nonsense?

[GreenGuy42]

Here's another ANH moment that's been bugging me for all these years:

During the trench run, before Red Leader bought the moisture farm he tells Luke, Wedge and Biggs to begin their run as well as informing them one of his engines is hit (although he seems to be flying just fine at the time). Moments later we actually see the engine get hit and Red Leader takes his final closeup of the Death Star surface, becoming the X-Wing equivalent of impacted Bantha poodoo. It makes me feel as if the sequence of events went 'B-A-C' instead of 'A-B-C'.

What bugs me is: Was that one engine hit twice? Were two engines hit, with only one being shown to us getting hit? Am I imagining all this nonsense?

I've always assumed he'd lost two by that point.

I mean, an X-wing SHOULD be able to survive on three engines (and honestly, two, especially in a vacuum, but it's Star Wars, so forget physics... )

But ya... losing 50% of your thrust and being in the Death Star's gravity well... I guess that'd do it.

[Hurin]

But ya... losing 50% of your thrust and being in the Death Star's gravity well... I guess that'd do it.

I think it was more about losing an engine with three or four TIE Fighters behind him in hot pursuit that made him consign himself to his doom.

H

[JsARCLIGHT]

Doesn't Luke take a solid engine hit as well? I'd say Red Leader lost two engines. Doesn't he also say he lost his "starboard" engine and he is shown taking the hit in his left (port) engine? No sure, been a while since I saw that clip.

[Sundown]

Ewoks (and the burping sarlacc pit) mark SW's decline into infantalism. Contrary to what is constantly alleged by those who say that this view is colored by nostalgia, most people that I know think this started with Jedi. . . which should be covered by the nostalgia factor. But oddly, isn't.

Edit: I should mention that AotC partially redeemed things

Oddly, for someone critical of the PT, I actually disagree with you mildly on both things here. Yeah, I agree the Ewoks had a bit kid-factor to them, and we could probably have been spared a few schticks. But at least they died. Mommy teddy bear getting vaped with kid bear mourning is not something you see everyday. At least that reel of the movie redeemed itself in spades with the Death Star and Endor battles, not to mention the saber fight.

I actually might have liked AOTC less than TMP. AOTC seemed and felt to me like pandering to fan complaints, not by presenting them with a good movie, sound dialogue, and a tight plot but by just throwing a lot of over-saturated cg action, random beasties and death (after a corny "romance" drama). Everything screamed look at meee, and sorry about the last movie!. The biggest pander was tying Fett incestuously to just about everything.

TMP was a mostly boring movie that could have benefitted from Jar Jar's complete removal and a few changes IMO. And the ending saberfight-- awesome. But AOTC does all sorts of things with the storyline that make me grimace-- mainly revolving around Anakin and Fett, the two most prominant characters in the story.

-Al

[ManxoChu]

Doesn't Luke take a solid engine hit as well? I'd say Red Leader lost two engines. Doesn't he also say he lost his "starboard" engine and he is shown taking the hit in his left (port) engine? No sure, been a while since I saw that clip.

Luke does take a hit in his upper port engine (engine #1 for simplicity's sake). Artoo works on it as well as improving the overall power during Luke's trench run before getting hit by Vader.

Red Leader is shown getting hit on engine #3 (upper starboard). For a dramatic loss of control like that, he had to have lost engine #4 as well as other controls (control surfaces/vernier thrusters perhaps? ). Tie that in to the Death Star's grav well, it's no wonder Red Leader splatted like a pile of warm poodoo.

Sorry, couldn't resist saying it. XD

[bsu legato]

But ya... losing 50% of your thrust and being in the Death Star's gravity well... I guess that'd do it.

I think it was more about losing an engine with three or four TIE Fighters behind him in hot pursuit that made him consign himself to his doom.

H

That was something I thought the '97 SEs actually fixed. In that version, you can clearly hear that Red Leader's engines aren't...er, running on all cylinders. Then he takes another hit and the rest is history. Now that I mention it, I don't even know if the new DVDs retained that change.

[MSW]

Goofy gags in the OT?...I'm suprised all the uber cool SW fans haden't noticed all the little bits in ESB...Yoda and R2 fighting over the flashlight...R2 standing on his "tippy toes" to peek inside Yoda's hut...Luke smelling then tossing the fish stick away after Yoda had gotten ahold of it...Han muteing C3PO by putting his hand over the droid's mouth..the movie is full of them...course it helped that Lucas actualy hired a real writer to finnese the ESB script (Lawrence Kasden, whom also wrote the Raiders of the lost Ark screenplay)

Difference between ANH/ESB and ROTJ/PT is the films arn't pandering to children as much. Lucas remembered what it was like being a kid, and did not yet have children of his own when ANH and ESB were made. He was inspired by the old serial chapter plays seen in his youth, SW and Indiana Jones are ment as loveing tributes to them.

Most people seem to loose the ability to relate to children, without speaking down or pandering to them, once they have kids of thier own...Yeah, even the OT was ment for kids, but it largely didn't pander to them.